You like pitchers grading out themselves? Liam, Noah, and Trevor edition.
On the traditional 20-80 scout grading scale. Done pitch by pitch (5).
Well here is an article done by Andrew Pentis of Milb.com and well Liam Hendriks of Perth, Australia.
I can't get enough of it, and have read it a few times. And i have to say I've only seen Hendriks a few times now, but, its pretty much right on give or take a little here with the 65 Changeup hmm. Pretty impressive stuff. The whole article can be found and read here:
http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120309&content_id=27137598&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb
Here is Hendriks describing his own arsenal for Milb.com...
Pitch one: Four-seam fastball
Origin: In Australia, we weren't allowed to throw curveballs until the age of 14, so I had to rely on fastballs and changeups. It's a countrywide rule. In games -- obviously, they can't control your training and all that -- it's considered a balk if you throw any sort of breaking ball.
Purpose: I'm starting to go now a lot more to the two-seam [fastball], but I still throw the four-seam in certain counts and things like this. It adds a little bit of "velo" and it doesn't move as much, so it's something different. I like to throw it in to lefties and away from righties; that's where it's most effective for me. I usually go glove-side four-seam, arm-side two-seam to mix it up.
Grip: Straight across the horseshoe. I just rear back and throw it.
Speed: Later on in the count, I tend to gas it up a bit more. Most of the time I hit 94, it's with at least two strikes on the guy. I really like to throw it as hard as I can, so anything above 90 is a good speed for me. ... I have only picked up the velocity in the last couple of years. During the 2009 offseason, the Twins shut me down completely from throwing, so I hit the gym pretty hard. I came into camp the next year feeling like I could let it loose, and that's carried over, which has helped me out a whole bunch.
Grade: I'm slightly above the Major League average speed and I have a little bit of movement to it -- it jumps at the end -- so I'd say a 55, 60.
Pitch two: Two-seam fastball
Origin: I learned it my first year of pro ball in the Gulf Coast League in 2007. I went home late 2007, early 2008, when I was [only throwing] four-seam, curveball, changeup. I dropped my arm angle a little bit to get some extra movement and started throwing a two-seam and a slider when I went to that arm slot.
Purpose: It's a bit of a different look and it plays off of my changeup really well because it moves, roughly, in the same direction. Plus, it added a lot of ground-ball outs for me. If it's low, it sinks, but if it's up, it still has the run into a right-hander, which is always nice.
Grip: Straight in the middle, along the seams, in between the two horseshoes. The biggest thing is I use my middle finger rather than the pointer finger. I throw it identical to the way I throw my four-seam, and it comes off my finger and starts moving downward -- or, it does most of the time; sometimes it does something different.
Speed: My usual range last year was 86-94 [mph]. Usually, I like to have it between 88 and 92; that's where my two-seam is more affective.
Grade: Speed-wise, it's probably a 50, 55. Movement-wise, it ranges: On a good day, it can be 55 to 60; on an average day, it's around 50 to 55. I'd give it a 55.
Pitch three: Changeup
Origin: I have been throwing a changeup since I was about 12. When I was growing up, I never threw overly hard, so I had to rely on changing speeds a lot. It's definitely my favorite pitch to throw.
Purpose: I like throwing my changeup a lot to lefties and righties. I can throw it in any count.
Grip: I hold it in a circle change grip, so I grip the middle of the horseshoe with my pointer finger, the inside of it to add a little bit of movement and take some speed off.
Speed: Around 78-81. Usually, I like to keep it just below 80. It's got a decent differential in speed with my fastball.
Grade: It's not a pitch that I shy away from, so I grade that one about a 65.
Pitch four: Slider
Origin: I started developing it on my own in 2008, but I was having trouble with grips and stuff like this. And then one of my coaches back in Australia, Graeme Lloyd -- he played in the big leagues for [10] years, won a couple of rings with the Yankees -- helped me out. He was a big, tall lefty, a sinker-slider-cutter guy who just did amazing things with the baseball, so it's definitely an honor to learn from him.
Purpose: Usually, I like to keep it away from righties and in to lefties. I have been working this offseason on backdoor sliders to left-handers, just because it adds something that maybe they haven't seen before or aren't expecting.
Grip: Along the edge of the horseshoe with my middle finger. I pretty much throw it as hard as I can.
Speed: In 2010, when I was having a pretty good year, it was between 82-86. Lately, the speed's been lower, but it's been more of a deceiving pitch. I like to throw it above 82.
Grade: I'd grade it around Major League average, a 50. It works well for me when I can get it over and things like this. It's one of the pitches I am gaining confidence in during Spring Training.
Pitch five: Curveball
Origin: I started throwing it in 2005. I had just come back from my first knee surgery. I could never throw a curveball before then, and I played around with it while I was hurt, [trying] grips and picking everybody's brains around me and managed to start throwing it.
Purpose: It's not a mid-at-bat pitch. It's usually a good first pitch to get over or a strikeout pitch.
Grip: When I first started throwing it, it was extremely slow, about 65-70 miles an hour. Since I have gained velocity on my fastball, it's now picked up. I like it around 72, 74, and I can get it a little bit harder if I really bear down on it. But most of the time, that's more of a two-strike pitch in the dirt.
Speed: I grip it off my pointer finger. Coaches were telling me to throw it off my middle finger, but that never felt comfortable.
Grade: Last year, it was around Major League average. This year, it's not quite working as well for me, so at the moment it's about a 45. But I'm hoping I can get it back to where it was.
Andrew Pentis is a contributor to MiLB.com. Follow him on Twitter at @AndrewMiLB. This story was not subject to the approval of the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues or its clubs.
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Love the descriptions given here
Even if Liam is a little on the optimistic side of grading ….
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 13, 2025 5:14 AM EDT reply actions
lol yes
but it’s a good thing that he’s confident in his stuff.
by another know it all on Apr 13, 2025 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Syndergaard
http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120217&content_id=26733298&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb
Pitch one: Four-seam fastball
Origin: Since Little League.
Purpose: I have always learned that the best pitch in baseball is strike one. Throwing my fastball the first pitch to a batter gives me the best opportunity to get to that point.
Grip: Standard four-seam grip.
Speed: The fastest I have topped out at is 98 [mph]. Other radar readings have been higher than that, but I think they were a little bit askew. I average 94, 95.
Grade: I’d probably give myself the benefit of the doubt and give it a 70.
Pitch two: Two-seam fastball
Origin: I have always thrown it; I don’t even remember when I picked it up.
Purpose: I love breaking bats, and when I want to break a bat to a right-handed hitter I’ll throw my two-seam inside and just let it work. It breaks in. … I throw my four-seam and two-seam about half and half, 60-40 in favor of the four-seam, if anything.
Grip: Traditional two-seam grip, in between the two laces.
Speed: Around the same as my four-seam, like 94, 95.
Grade: I’d give it a 70 as well.
Pitch three: Curveball
Origin: In high school, I didn’t really throw a curveball at all. There was one game, a 15-strikeout game, when I had to revert to my curveball because [batters] were all over my fastball. I just had to improve it quite a bit when I got to pro ball because it got high school hitters out; it didn’t do much — have much effect — against pro hitters.
Purpose: I mostly go with the curveball in two-strike counts. Sometimes I can throw it 12-to-6, but more often it has a slide to it, more 1-to-7 action to it.
Grip: Traditional curveball grip.
Speed: 78-79, but I will add a little a velocity here within the season.
Grade: Some people say it’s a “plus curveball,” but this past year that was what I was working on the most. This year was more of a “feeling” year, to get a feel for my curveball. I have been working on it a lot this offseason and it’s getting to be a pretty good pitch in my mind. I’ll give it a 50.
Pitch four: Circle changeup
Origin: I don’t really remember when I first learned it. Since my Little League days.
Purpose: To keep hitters off-balance. … I mostly go with the curveball in two-strike counts, but if it’s a 3-2 count and I know the hitter is sitting dead-red fastball, then I’ll throw a changeup.
Grip: Just a typical circle-change grip.
Speed: Around 84. I can get it up to 88, but that’s a little too fast for my liking.
Grade: I’d give it a 65.
Andrew Pentis is a contributor to MLB.com. Follow him on Twitter at @AndrewMiLB. This story was not subject to the approval of the National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues or its clubs.
by pedrophile on Apr 13, 2025 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
of the self-gradings this one seems the most accurate
I’m not sure his change-up is a true 65 pitch yet though. I do like the more accurate velocity readings he gives and the more accurate grading on the curve.
I would also say the 70 ranking on the fastball is high but he does have a very hard 2 seamer and commands the fastball very well, so it’s possible this ranking is correct.
by pedrophile on Apr 13, 2025 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks for this i love these.
:) :)
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 13, 2025 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Bauer
http://www.milb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120208&content_id=26613236&fext=.jsp&vkey=news_milb
Pitch one: Four-seam fastball
Origin: I threw two-seamers and sinkers growing up because I didn’t throw super hard and relied on a lot of movement to keep the ball down and get hitters off-balance. But I didn’t know a whole lot about effective velocity and pitch sequencing back then. Now that I have a better feel for it and what hitters react to and what actually gets them out, I’ve gone to the four-seam. I find I’m better able to control the movement on it.
Purpose: For the way I sequence pitches and try to hit tunnels, it’s important to have a pitch that moves consistently so that I know where it started and where to start other pitches to make them look the same.
Grip: Straight across the four seams.
Speed: Anywhere above 92 [mph].
Grade: I’d give myself a 60 because I don’t have the best command of it yet. Velocity-wise, it will continue to get better. I’d say it’s an 80 [in terms] of upside.
Pitches two and three: Changeups
Origin: My dad has always been a proponent of the changeup [since] I started pitching when I was 8.
Purpose: I have two variations of it; I can make it cut or I can make it run. I’m pretty confident [using either] to any side hitter.
Grip: I grip a fastball but with my middle and ring finger. I don’t really ever close off the circle [like a typical circle change]. I basically create an equator around the ball, split the ball in half with my ring finger and thumb, and then everything else lays on there comfortably. And then I just throw the ball so that, when I release it, my ring finger and my thumb are directly on top of each other vertically.
Speed: From 80-84.
Grade: I’d give myself a 70. It’s actually the pitch I command the best.
Pitches four and five: Curveballs
Origin: I started throwing a variation of a curveball when I was 9 and then started throwing an actual curveball when I was 12. It was never really a concern to me [to throw a breaking ball at that age]. People don’t understand how to throw a curveball properly, so they end up putting their arms at risk. They try to do something with their hand to make it spin artificially. My pitching coach, Jim Wagner, told me, ‘Set your wrist, throw it and let the ball roll off naturally.’
Purpose: To get a strike early in the count, or as a put-away pitch.
Grip: I have two different grips, one that I use for a strike pitch and then another grip I use when I really want to bury it. Bury it means, primarily, that I’m going to throw it in the dirt.
Speed: From 76-81.
Grade: I have pretty good command on it and it has good break, so I’d give it a 70 on the scale.
Pitches six and seven: Dot slider and circle slider
Origin: I picked up a slider during my junior season in high school, so I haven’t been throwing it as long.
Purpose: I have two variations — one of them is more of a traditional cutter, but it has more horizontal movement to it than vertical movement. I call that my circle slider because when I throw it, it comes out with a circle on it instead of a dot. I use that one primarily early in the count to hit tunnels to righties, disguise it, make it look like a fastball or a changeup and keep it in the zone. My dot slider is the one that breaks more.
Grip: The only thing I do differently is grip [each] differently. I throw it the exact same. One of them is a very traditional slider grip. I hold it right on the horseshoe of the ball and pull down on the seam. … The other one, in doing video analysis and playing with different grips, I noticed that I can throw it the exact the same [but] with this grip … based on the orientation of the grip, the pressure zones it creates as it’s spinning through the air, I can get it to move less than the other one. It’s been a struggle because the grip is not particularly comfortable, but I’m getting a lot more consistent with it.
Speed: The dot slider is about 84-86; the circle slider is usually about 84.
Grade: My dot slider, the one that breaks more, I’m going to grade that one about a 70. My circle slider, strictly based on the inconsistency of it, I’ll give a 55 or a 60. It will be a lot better next year than it was last year, but it’s not as much of a ‘wow’ pitch as my dot slider is.
Pitch eight: Reverse slider
Origin: Between my sophomore year and junior year at UCLA, [that’s] really when I picked up on Perry Husband’s Effective Velocity and learning how speed and location interact with each other in the zone. It became apparent that I needed something to go the opposite way at a [specific] speed range. It’s a cross between a sinking fastball and a screwball — it’s a little bit slower than a sinking fastball and a little bit harder than a traditional screwball would be. I played around with it and got it done. I used it a lot [my senior] year at UCLA.
Purpose: It’s designed to be a left-handed cut fastball. I want it to sit in the middle range of speeds and move about 5 inches, just enough to get from the middle of the plate to the outside corner to a lefty or the inside corner to a righty.
Grip: If you think about how you grip a slider and how your hand is on the outside of the ball, I just reverse everything. So my thumb position, my wrist position, all that stuff, I reverse. And [the ball] rolls off my pointer finger.
Speed: Between 88-91.
Grade: Give it a 50. Movement-wise, people are going to say, “Oh, that’s not impressive,” but very few people understand how effective a pitch that moves 4 inches is, and especially in that speed range. It’s a pitch that I will throw increasingly often as my career goes along.
Pitch nine: Split-finger fastball
Origin: I was down at Texas Baseball Ranch one summer and talked to this guy, Brent Strom, and he asked me if I threw a splitter. I said no. He asked me to spread my fingers to see how far I could spread ‘em, so I did. And he said, “You should definitely throw a split. Your fingers have enough flexibility that you should do it.” He taught me how and sent me on my way to practice it. Funny story: I had [Team] USA trials after that — two weeks after I learned it — and I actually threw it; it was the only pitch that worked at the trials. I didn’t make the team that year [in 2008] but, since then it’s been a good pitch for me. I threw it in college increasingly as coach [John] Savage got more comfortable with it and realized that it was a viable pitch for me.
Purpose: What’s really gotten success — I didn’t have a whole lot of ’em hit — was in two-strike counts as a put-away pitch.
Grip: Traditional, [spreading index and middle fingers].
Speed: In the 86-88 range.
Grade: I’d give it a 40 or a 50. It’s still a developing pitch, but it’s not something I’m going to give up on because the possibilities are pretty great. It’s something I have seen work for many guys. If I can get it to be more consistent — and it will take more repetitions of me throwing it — it can be a very devastating pitch.
by pedrophile on Apr 13, 2025 11:54 AM EDT reply actions
God he loves naming things
Seriously, a reverse slider? It’s just a one seem fastball grip that he’s focusing on running instead of sinking. Any other pitcher would just call it a two seamer and leave it at that. But hey, I guess I’ll tell my 12 year old brother to start calling the version of the pitch he throws a reverse slider and it will sound a heck of a lot cooler.
Don’t get me wrong, I love how much thought Bauer puts into the game and how much he thinks about creating different types of movement. At times it just comes across like he is trying way too hard to impress people with his baseball intellect. I wonder how many pitches Maddux threw if he broke them up like this?
by nixa37 on Apr 13, 2025 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
just like the dot and circle slider
just call one a short slider. Or go with the new term everyone in the industry loves, the cutter.
by pedrophile on Apr 13, 2025 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep
Actually on the subject of Maddux, I believe it was Leo Mazzone (now on Atlanta talk radio) who joked about people talking saying Maddux only threw 3 pitches by saying he had something like 8 fastball and 8 change ups. Basically one that moved over the outside corner, one that moved off the outside corner, one that moved over the inside corner, and one that moved off the inside corner of each type of pitch to each type of batter and that they were each slightly different.
by nixa37 on Apr 13, 2025 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
I’m sure Maddux threw a fastball that cut, one that tailed with sink, one that tailed without sink, one that cut with sink, pure sinker, etc.
by pedrophile on Apr 13, 2025 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
i honestly think
there’s a part of Bauer that just thinks he’s better than everyone else
which i’m totally cool with. though i’m definitely biased (really wanted the Dbacks to draft him prior to the draft, and now that he’s a Dbacks prospect, even more reason to cheer for him). but in general, i do think being arrogant as a pitcher is a positive mentality.
by blue bulldog on Apr 14, 2025 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a good point on thinking he's better/smarter than everyone else
And I agree it can definitely be a good thing as long as he’s either humble enough to make some changes once he struggles or simply good enough where he never has to change. I do think he could be in for a bit of a rude awakening once he makes the majors. His preference for pitching up in the zone combined with how easily the ball flies out of chase field could lead to some rough early outings.
Bauer is definitely different from any other recent pitching prospect I can remember in terms of his outspokenness, his proclivity for discussing the thought process that goes into his pitching, and his dedication to his workout routine. I do think he’ll at least be a good pitcher barring injury (and given how much I like the philosophy he follows with his arm workouts I really hope that doesn’t happen).
by nixa37 on Apr 15, 2025 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
reading this i can't help but chuckle a bit.
He’s going to be good though, barring injury no doubt about it. I feel like Tim Lincecum should be his idle, and he can always go to him for questions, concerns or pointers.
Man he really knows hot to pitch, and its only his rookie season (maybe?) Its scary to think just how much potential he has, BUT he better stay healthy, a serious injury and it may be hard to come back to and repeat those mechanics. and motions.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 13, 2025 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
SteveHoffmanSlowey - sorry for hijacking your post with other pitchers self-evals
by pedrophile on Apr 13, 2025 2:17 PM EDT reply actions
no that is quite alright let me just change the title thread...
This is Awesome.
I totally missed out on the Syndergaard one.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 13, 2025 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting
Thanks for the initial links and links to other pitchers. They’re all overly optimistic, but that’s not really surprising. If you ask people to grade themselves as above average or below average at a skill or trait, well over 50% will consider themselves above average.
by MjwW on Apr 13, 2025 3:27 PM EDT reply actions
especially since from a selection bias standpoint
pitchers tend to have more than a healthy dose of self-confidence :)
by blue bulldog on Apr 14, 2025 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
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