Shameless Page View Bomb: Red Sox vs. Yankees Farm Systems

i love bogaerts as do most, but i feel like they just have more depth than the yanks. the very top of the new york system is probably a bit better, i do love montero still and i think there is a lot to like about betances and banuelos as well. i’m also a fan of bichette. while bogaerts doesn’t represent a legit, A level prospect who is major league ready like montero does, if he progresses as expected he could be that in a couple more seasons. i loved what the sox did in this draft getting swihart and barnes, both of whom i really like, and i still have faith in raunaudo. i prefer brandon jacobs to mason williams, and lavarnway and middlebrooks are nice icing on the cake as close to the majors pieces.

I’d say it’s got to be the Red Sox’ system. If you’re starting a team, you’d probably rather have the deeper system with the talent spread out over the entire system. And if you add in the recent history of the system in churning out ML quality players, I think it only becomes clearer.

Perhaps a better hypothetical would be - as the teams are presently constructed, who says no to this deal: the Sox’ minor leaguers for the Yankees’ minor leaguers, between the two teams.

If it was simply “Which farm system, top to bottom, do you like better?”, I would say the Yankees in a heartbeat. NY has similar depth and more top-shelf talent.

But where did a majority of that talent come from? The international market. With the rule changes in the new CBA, NY’s advantage on the international side has gone completely away. And since that advantage has now disappeared, if I am choosing simply which organization’s structure I would rather have, it is Boston’s overall structure. IMO the SOX have the advantage on the developmental side. I know Theo had a major say in scouting and the draft, but most of the guys that learned from him are still there.

For those reasons, taking everything into account I’d pick Boston.

Seriously though, I’d rather have the Blue Jays, Cards, Padres, Diamondbacks, etc. I think if we’re going to do battle of the systems we should start with #1 versus #2 and #3 versus #4 based on a ranking based on John’s grades, which I believe has already been done, and then do something like the winner of 1/2 versus 3/4.

I know though, as John stated, this post will get more traffic, lol.

Priceless.

But other than that, the Sox are basically equal to or better than the Yankees in the other categories. The rule 4 draft especially, the Sox have been more willing to let their stars walk and pick up extra high draft picks, the Yanks seem to hold on to what they have.

Yankees. their system is down the middle. Catchers, pitchers, 2B, SS and CFers. Thats how you build a system. Where as the Red Sox hitters are corner fielders. If they can’t make it there, guess what they can’t make it in the majors. Where as the Yankees have the chance to move a SS to 3B, a CF to RF or LF, a catcher to 1B, a starter to the bullpen.

1. Bogaerts vs Montero
I am down on Montero and high on Bogaerts, but Montero still deserves to be above because he’s closer to the majors, it’s closer than most people think, but not that close, Bogaerts does have a higher ceiling though. advantage Yankees
2. Sanchez vs Barnes
I would go equal here, Barnes was a steal in the draft and Sanchez has a very high ceiling but is far away. Advantage neither, 1-0 Yankees
3. Middlebrooks vs Banuelos
Also very close, I would probably have both around 6 or 7, not that high on either, they both don’t have good plate discipline or walk too many people which is not good at all, but both have high ceilings and good tools, both are relatively close to the majors. But I think Banuelos is a little better.
Advantage Yankees, 2-0 Yankees
4. Betances vs Lavarnway
Lavarnway wins easy here for me, Betances is a reliever for me, and John dosen’t think Lavarnway is that bad at Catcher and Lavarnway has an impact bat to me, I would put Lavarnway in the top 3.
Advantage Red Sox, 1-2
5. Cecchini vs Williams
Another close one, two really high ceiling players in the same league that are very far away, I like Cecchini’s plate discipline much better, and I’m tempted to give it to him because that’s the most important thing for a player in my opinion, but he is older and has injury problems so I would take Williams
Advantage Yankees, 3-1.
6. Jacobs vs Bichette Jr.
Okay this is not very close to me, Bichette wasn’t regarded that highly before the draft, and his huge numbers were in a league super far away, Jacobs has better tools, and is closer, and put up big stats.
Advantage Red Sox 3-2
7. Swihart vs Phelps
I have to give this to Swihart, monster ceiling, Phelps could be a 5 starter or okay set up man, but he’s already 25 and dosen’t excite me much.
Advantage Red Sox, 3-3
8. Coyle vs Santana
I guess Santana has a higher ceiling but he has serious injury problems, and Coyle’s ceiling isn’t anywhere close to bad, he plays amazing defense, has good speed, and has hit for a lot of power for his size, the contact should come around.
Advantage Red Sox 4-3
9. Brentz vs Austin
I have to give this to Brentz, as Austin was just drafted, and isn’t that great a prospect, and Brentz has monster power and absolutely destroyed the minors last year.
Advantage Red Sox, 5-3
10. Ranaudo vs Warren
Not even close, Warren is a decent arm, but Ranaudo was ranked 37 on the BA midseason top 50 and people said his scouting reports were very good at the beginning of the season, but got gassed,
Advantage Red Sox 6-3
11. Owens vs Romine
I don’t like Romine at all since he hasn’t hit that well and I don’t think he’ll stay at Catcher, but Owens is a risky high school pitcher so I’ll give them a tie
Advantage tie, 6-3
12. Iglesias vs Murphy
I know a lot of people know my views on Iglesias, but to put it short, he was extremely young for his league, and had a super unlucky BABIP, he should hit much better, and has the only 80 glove for a SS in the minors.
Advantage Red Sox 7-3
13. Culver vs Bradley
Bradley is one of my favorite prospects, he isn’t super athletic, but he has a very good hit tool, has some power, plays great defense, even though he has a little above average speed, and has fantastic plate discipline, Culver wasn’t regarded that highly of when he was drafted and hasn’t performed that well.
Advantage Red Sox 8-3
14. Wilson vs Marshall
Wilson is the equivalent of Phelps, just the Sox system is deeper, but I think Brett Marshall is the Yankees most underrated prospect and I would put him tied with Phelps and Wilson.
Advantage tie, 8-3
15. Heathcott vs Workman
Heathcott has good tools, but serious injury issues and serious attitude issues, Workman is a pretty good starter, who put up good stats, I agree with John on this one
Advantage Red Sox, 9-3
16. was Kyle Weiland, now Felix Doubront vs Angelo Gumbs
This is hard to do, a guy who’s a decent 4th starter and very close to the majors vs a very young player who we don’t know what his ceiling is who is very far away, just too hard to compare, even, 9-3.
17. Pimentel vs Turley
Turley’s not that great, but Pimentel was a disaster, and he wasn’t my favorite in the first place, I liked Drake Britton a lot better than Pimentel, though he also had a disaster season, he has better stuff because of fastball movement, I might take him over Turley
advantage Yankees 9-4
18. Christian Vazquez vs Daniel Lopez
Not that close to me, Vazquez put up big numbers, and was voted the best defensive catcher in the SALLY. Advantage Red Sox 10-4
19. Vitek vs Adams
not close, Adams has serious injury issues, Vitek has a better bat and better tools,
advantage Red Sox 11-4
20. Used to be Miles Head now Cody Kukuk vs Ramon Flores
I agree with John, Kukuk has a much better ceiling
advantage Red Sox 12-4
The Red Sox had 3 more C+s.

I don’t think I was being that biased here, I agreed with John on most things, the main things I didn’t were I would take Mason Williams over Cecchini, in favor of Yankees, Lavarnway over Betances, in favor of Red Sox, and I would make Marshall and Wilson tied. in favor of Yankees. Tell me what you disagree with.

the Red Sox ahead of the Yankees, they have better grades from him

don’t understand about Bogaerts is, currently, he’s not a bad defender at short, he’s very athletic, the knock on him is he’ll outgrow the position, yet Manny Machado dosen’t have as many questions about remaining at short stop as Bogaerts yet he’s bigger. People are saying it’s a foregone conclusion Bogaerts isn’t a SS, that’s simply not true.

Their best position prospect is a DH; their top two pitching prospects have been ranked anywhere from #3 starters to relievers.

There’s very little depth other than at catcher, and JR Murphy’s moving and Sanchez might down the road, so a considered depth today could turn out to be anything but in a couple of years.

I don’t like the Sox’ system either, but at least they moved some potential impact pieces for Gonzalez which is a guaranteed return and easily made them a better team.

I wouldn’t rank either in the top 15

why do people say, the Yankees have similar depth and better top talent. That was last year.
This year, John ranked the sox with 15 B-s or higher and the Yankees with 9.
Top 4
Yankees
Montero A
Sanchez B+
Banuelos B
Betances B

The Red Sox have
Bogaerts B+
Barnes B+
Middlebrooks B
Lavarnway B.

Other than Montero, that’s the same, and I think Montero deserves an A-, to me the Red Sox have a little worse top talent, and a lot better depth.

I think Boegarts has a higher chance for failure than most. He has a high ceiling, but he isn’t likely to stick at shortstop. Still question his contact skills.
I also have no idea why people are so high on Middlebrooks. His power isn’t so good that I overlook his plate discipline/strike zone issues.

Please re-read John’s question. He’s not asking which group of players is better. He’s asking about the entirety of the systems - the scouting, development, draft and international systems. Where they get their players. The quality of the talent that enters the system. The development of those players into actual MLB performers. We need to think more broadly.

I feel like I’m between two rival monkey cages at the zoo.

Sox system is in a lull for a couple of seasons and I’ll probably go with then come 2013 or 2014.

but I trust very little reprots on the Sox’s system. I mean Casey Kelly was described as being elite comparable to Strasburg 2 years ago. The overhype of the system is ridiculous. When they picked Randaudo the emdia collectivelly jizzed but when he started playing the scouts weren’t nearly impressed.

I rarely see non baised reports of the Sox’s farm.

I’d pick the Red Sox over the Yanks because of better depth and a better record of developing pitching. Yanks have a slight edge with Montero in terms of MLB ready talent but that’s about it. I don’t have a high opinion of the Killer Bs unless they can get a turnaround in their command. The Yanks own MLB lineup shows what little success pitchers with poor command usually have in the AL Beast.

I don’t think the Sox System has a big edge over the Yanks.

As a fan of another team I’ve grinded my teeth in fustration at how well they’ve drafted (IMO) the past little while. Annoying it is.

1. Yanks have a slight edge with Montero but the red sox gets better depth by 2010, 2011 draft. Barnes, Cecchini, Swihart, Coyle, Ranaudo, Owens, Bradley, Brentz are all first or potential first round talents.Although most of red sox prospect needs time, (except Middlebrooks, Lavarnway, Iglesias) the red sox still win. (the 10,11 draft group got huge upside)
2. John mentions “Think about their minor league affiliates, their recent histories in the draft, what they do on the international front, their coaches and development staff, their philosophies on how to handle young players.” Theo built great farm develop system , consider this part, which John says, Red sox is " apparently much" better. Checking the past history would be a good way to prove, since contributing in MLB is the most important thing. Red Sox developed all-star players like Bucholz, Masterson, Bard, Lester, Youk, Pedroia, Papelbon, Hanley Ramirez. (I didn’t count in Reddick, Lowrie, Shoppach, Murphy, Anibal Sanchez, Delcarmen, coz they are not big success) The Yankees: Cano, A-Jax, Robertson, Melancon, Hughes(with problem), Chmaberlain(with problem), Wang, Tabata, Gardner, Ian Kennedy, Nick Johnson, Aceves, Melky Cabrera. Only Cano, Wang, Kennedy are all-star caliber.

That proves a team’s ability to draft and develop elite players (What I mean is All-Star potential, doesn’t mean they have to play in all-star game) I forgot Robertson. He is an all-star caliber, too but Gardner an all star ??(best OPS+ is in 2010 105,and 91 or so in other years) Come on…. Typical Yankees fan.. He is not bad, but definitely not that good.

As for Phil Hughes, he got serious mechanic and health problem. check this:
http://riveraveblues.com/2011/10/what-went-wrong-phil-hughes-57893/?

Joba is a tough call. He is young and still “has chance” to be an Ace or No. 2 But his Statistics from 2009 to 2011 isn’’t good compared to the “proven elite player” such as Pedroia, Papelbon, Hanley Ramirez, Cano and so on.

First, the Red Sox have a better track record.

Since Brian Cashman became GM in 1998, players originally signed by the Yankees have accumulated at WAR (using Fangraphs) of slightly better than 100 WAR, and one player, Robinson Cano has accumulated more than 20 WAR. Over that same period, players originally signed by the Red Sox have accumulated just less than 250 WAR, and four players, Hanley Ramirez, Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, and Jon Lester have better than 20 WAR. For context, players originally signed by the Tampa Bay Rays have accumulated just over 200 WAR. (numbers approximate; I didn’t have anyone to double check my numbers).

Second, of the three beasts in the East, Red Sox prospects are the most under-rated.

I went through the BA top 100 lists, and for players signed since 1998, the Red Sox have received the least “love”. I should note that I had to eliminate certain players from this part of the assessment:

I didn’t count Daisuke Matsuzaka, Jose Contreras or Hideki Matsui — none of these players were ever really minor league prospects in the US.

I didn’t count Jesus Montero, Manuel Banuelos, Dellin Betances, Jeremy Hellickson, Desmond Jennings, Chris Archer, Matt Moore or Casey Kelly. There is no reason to think any of these players is over-rated at this time. (i.e. counting them would have skewed the results since these players have already registered high on the BA list, but have not had sufficient playing time to accumulate WAR).

I didn’t count Ryan Westmoreland; I felt he was a special situation.

I did count Lars Anderson and Tim Beckham. While I suspect both will have Major League careers of some kind, I think it is equally safe to call them both over-rated.

With these caveats, I came up with the following results:

Top 50 prospects: TB 11, NYY 8, BOS 6
Tops 20 prospects: TB10, NYY 3, BOS 4
Top 5 prospects: TB 6 NYY 2, BOS 1

Thus despite producing over double the ML WAR of Yankees prospects, Red Sox prospects have been rated essential equal to their NY counterparts.

Despite having slightly outproduced the TB prospects, Red Sox have been nowhere class to as favorably rated as their counterparts on the Rays.

If this was a question before, it isn’t anymore.