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Beckham vs. Flores

 

Monday, August 24, 2025

Shortstop Showdown - Flores vs. Beckham

Since squaring off in the Appapachian League, the question keeps coming up over and over again. If you had to choose one, would it be Tim Beckham or Wilmer Flores? The answer is much more difficult than two lines in a baseball chat box allow.

In seeing both play this season, I'm not even sure I know the answer. Neither Flores nor Beckham have performed like the elite prospects they were billed to be. Do they both have strengths? Absolutely, but both have glaring weaknesses as well. Instead of simply saying which I prefer and why, I wanted to break each down based on tools and projection and give readers an opportunity to weigh in.

 

Age - Advantage Flores: At a year and a half younger than Beckham, Flores is playing the 2009 season as a 17-year old. Beckham is young for the league as well at 19, but Flores' moderate success in full season baseball is much more impressive than the raw numbers indicate.

Bonus - Advantage Mets: With Flores receiving less than 15% of the bonus awarded to Beckham, the Mets have much less to lose should Flores not pan out. I've discussed Beckham's bonus in a previous piece, and simply don't see his being worth ten times what other shortstop prospects in the league have received.


Physical Projection - Advantage Flores: At 6'3", Flores has shed weight over the course of the season leaving what is essentially an empty canvas for the Mets organization to develop. At a listed 175 lbs., he's a player who can gain 30+ pounds on his way up the Mets organization ladder. Beckham, with his already fully developed lower body, doesn't have the frame to handle more weight. He may even be a guy who needs to redistribute some of the weight he has gained in his lower body to remain agile enough to man a position in the middle of the field.

Maturity - Advantage Beckham: While Wilmer Flores' approach has improved leaps and bounds this season, Beckham handled his business as professional should. If one did not know who Beckham was, he or she would have had no idea Beckham was a former #1 overall pick from the way he carried himself on the field.

Contact - Advantage Flores: At 17, a K% of 14.1% is pretty obscene. Beckham's K% sits a full ten points higher and he showed an inability to make solid contact versus breaking pitches when I watched him in person. Beckham's contact issues are correctable, but Flores' contact ability is simply uncanny for a player of his age who is still so raw.

Power - Advantage Flores: At present, Beckham is showing more power than Flores. However, if you consider the age difference and Flores' room to fill out, power projection favors Flores considerably. Beckham may become a 12-15 home run player in the bigs, but Flores has the potential for 20+ or more annually.

Fielding - Advantage Beckham: Better foot speed and athleticism gives Beckham the range advantage and the nod on footwork. He's also a much more fluid fielder. However, Flores does very well with balls in front of him and I'm impressed with the way he charges everything to cut down the distance on his throws to first base.

Arm Strength - Advantage Beckham: While Flores' arm grows stronger as the year continues to progress, Beckham already posesses a plus arm from what I've seen. Flores' arm will never be more than average at best.

Speed - Advantage Beckham: Flores, nicknamed "Tortuga" or "Turtle" by his teammates is a true 20 runner on the 20-80 scale. Beckham has slightly above average speed which he hasn't been able to translate into more than mediocre stolen base percentages which may not improve as time goes on.

With both players having very different skill sets, they grade out to be near equal on paper. What tips this showdown into Flores' favor for me is the bonus Flores received. Beckham may very well have a higher floor, but at less than 15% of the bonus given to Beckham, Flores not panning out would be a drop in the bucket compared to the amount the Rays invested in Beckham.



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wilmer flores

the scouting report suggests he might be a future 3rd basemen and not a shortsstop….

by matthewmafa on Aug 24, 2025 4:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Beckham AND Flores may both move off of SS

But….for now, they are both manning the spot. If you read other reports I’ve written on both, I’ve talked at length about where both may wind up.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Aug 24, 2025 4:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You never cease to amaze Mike

Infinite gratitude for all your diligence and hard work. Your SALLY League analysis has given us Mets fans in particular a glimmer of hope in a completely lost season.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 24, 2025 4:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

How so?

:)

The biggest advantage Flores has is that he is an international showcase player, and therefore very very raw. I was expecting a year like Marte had this season, however he has been, as Mike mentioned, extreme impressive in terms of ARL, or in this case my favorite term, ExperienceRL.

Age is just a raw number that doesn’t tell the whole story, given Flores’ international background and how raw he is, I think he projects to be a significantly better bat than Beckham. With Beckham’s defensive value/position in question, that doesn’t make up the difference for me.

I just got on twitter.Follow me at http://twitter.com/JDSussman
I'll be trying to post lines and analysis as much as possible.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by Metty5 on Aug 24, 2025 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

his contact is nice.

i think everyone is discounting Beckham’s power potential though. and I’m not convinced that Flores will hit for more power.

I remember early scouting reports saying that Beckham has very quick wrists, and I haven’t heard anything lately that says differently. he has hit quite a few doubles, and from watching video, it looks like his bat speed is very good. I was less impressed with video of Flores.

by daveh33 on Aug 25, 2025 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So far this year

Wilmer has a ridiculous fly ball rate. He gets the ball into the outfield with ease and as he adds muscle, it is very likely those fly balls to mid/shallow outfield become home runs. Most of Wilmer’s projection comes from that he will hit for power because as of now, he has, as you said, a not so impressive swing and little muscle as he just turned 18. When he fills out and hopefully fixes his issues with his swing, Wilmer will definitely start hitting for power.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 25, 2025 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Answering some ?'s raised....

When a buddy of mine (who is from Miami and has been in and around baseball for 20+ years) saw Beckham, he saw flashes, but nothing that said #1 overall. With Flores, he commented he looked like he just came off a back field hitting rocks with sticks. Beckham played all the big showcases against the best amateur competition. Flores obviously did not. that’s a HUGE thing to me.

Beckham has explosive wrists. That’s the big thing you notice with him. But he had a line drive swing and was hitting lasers 5 feet off of the ground. When he shortens his swing to compensate for his problems with breaking pitches, he may even become more of a ground ball/line drive guy. I can see 15 HR/season with some nice doubles numbers, but I didn’t see significant power projection.

Wilmer’s fly ball rate is deceiving. He doesn’t repeat his hitting mechanics well and has a tendency to drop his back elbow which causes his bat to drag. It leads to a lot of pop ups to shallow right field when things are going poorly. If I’m the Mets, I spread his stance out, drop him down and begin working on incorporating his lower half. EVERYTHING Flores has done has been with flicks of his wrists. When he was on fire and up above .290, he was staying in side the ball nicely and really driving it.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Aug 25, 2025 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice write-up

Haven’t had an opportunity to see either play, or any clips. I’m a bit surprised about Flores though when seeing that pick, I realize it’s about projection, but he doesn’t look that thick or that his body would push him off the position. It sounds like he’s handled SS pretty well this year.

by MightyMoose on Aug 24, 2025 5:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

If he really is a 20 speed

There’s no way he sticks. Though if his actions have improved as Mike suggests, 2B might not be out of the question, perhaps still a longshot though. If his power does come along, I actually think 1B might be the likely path to the bigs for him, since his arm doesn’t seem too great either, and Dubs seems to want to stay a Met foreverz. A 20 speed obviously wouldn’t play well in the outfield either. But with good hands and the ability to charge balls well, it sounds like he could be a nice defender at first base.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 24, 2025 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

he can't really be a 20...

can he? He’s slower than the Jack Custs and David Ortizes of the world? Those guys aren’t 20s. How could any reasonably athletic person of his proportions be that slow? Doesn’t even seem possible unless there are weird issues with his anatomy. Just not buying this one.

by AgitationStation on Aug 25, 2025 4:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ortiz is probably closer to a 30-35 if you ask me

He’s a poor runner, but there are plenty worse. I dont think Cust is a 20 either, actually, though I dont watch him as much as Ortiz. Theyre both big dudes and look hilarious running, but I think if we put a stopwatch on it they get there faster than some.

Mike Lowell? That’s a 20. If Ortiz, Lowell and Bengie Molina race around the bases, Ortiz is scoring while those guys are coming into third. Its an endless source of amusement to me how much slower than Ortiz Mike Lowell is since the hip surgery.

Really, Ortiz and Cust are both faster to first by Bengie Molina.

by alskor on Aug 25, 2025 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cust is not even close to a 20 runner

35, maybe even a 40. If you think he’s a 20, you just haven’t watched him play.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2025 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I was going to say

I know for a fact Ortiz isnt that close, and I did want to say the same about Cust, but I didnt want to pontificate on a guy I dont get to watch all that often. He’s never looked that slow to me.

by alskor on Aug 25, 2025 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This reminds me

We had a big kid named Nick Zuchella in my grade school. He looked like a he’d be a doofus running. But when we ran the 40 in gym, he was the fastest kid. Looks can be decieiving.

by wobatus on Aug 25, 2025 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BA said 25 about a month ago

Someone here or on another message board said they were sitting with some scouts at a Savannah game and they wondered if he broke his foot when he was younger because he simply runs terribly.

by Fanon on Aug 25, 2025 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well

he’s a Met, so he has got to have had an injury. Amybe the medical staff said play through it, you’ll be fine. Tough it outta ya big baby.

by wobatus on Aug 25, 2025 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I remember reading that too

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 25, 2025 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably a 25

He’s slow. I heard from a reliable source that Francisco Pena was beating him in sprints in camp in ST.

by acerimusdux on Aug 27, 2025 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Arm

I have always heard that Flores has a plus arm?

"My name is Daniel Murphy and I bat 3rd."

by Celtics17 on Aug 24, 2025 5:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So? Its not like he's just regurgitating material

He actually watches them play, and runs a blog called “Scouting the Sally League”. I’d say this is very valid as additional perspective.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 24, 2025 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously son.of.sourman?

I read through that thread and I don’t think anybody had actually seen both. The damn title was even spelled incorrectly. Get real!

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Aug 25, 2025 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

huh?

why does everyone assume the pejorative on here? i just thought it would be useful to link to the previous discussion of this.

by son.of.sourman on Aug 25, 2025 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

Just seemed like you were criticizing it as a repost by saying “already been posted” and nothing else, but far be it from me to exclude relevant insight. I remember that thread.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 25, 2025 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Appreciate the writeup/breakdown

You run a great site.

A few things, though.

1) I see what you’re saying about their respective bonuses and the ROI for their teams, but I don’t think that should really play any role in how they compare, purely as prospects.

2) To say “Beckham AND Flores may both move off of SS” seems to brush aside what is really a gigantic difference between them. Now I haven’t seen either of them in person as you have, but it is my understanding that Flores has essentially a 0% chance of ending up in the middle infield, which seems to be accurate based on your assessment of his 20 foot speed. There is a world of difference between that inevitability for Flores and the emergent possibility that Beckham might move if X, Y, and Z do or don’t happen.

3) Given the scarcity of true SS in the minors who project to have even average bats, I’ll take Beckham.

by aCone419 on Aug 24, 2025 6:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Point 3

I think the issue is that it seems Beckham will not remain at SS. While I wouldn’t put him in Montero’s league, in terms of certainty of moving of his current posiion. However, Mike isn’t the only person saying this, its been a frequent comment lately.

From what I gather he has been pretty sloppy in the field, and and move is a very real possibility.

I just got on twitter.Follow me at http://twitter.com/JDSussman
I'll be trying to post lines and analysis as much as possible.
Remember: baseball guys... baseball...

by Metty5 on Aug 24, 2025 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

disagree.

if I know anything about the Rays FO, they drafted a SS, and they intend to keep him there. I haven’t heard any of the major publications say anything to indicate that he will be moved. and certainly one full season is not enough to do it. Brignac also used to be categorized as “bad”… not anymore

by daveh33 on Aug 25, 2025 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They drafted Upton as a SS but he had to move.

If Beckham isn’t good enough he’ll have to move.

"We must win and we must know how to win rather than win because we have statistical people."

by Evan_S on Aug 25, 2025 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Upton

Upton was given about a bijillion years (or so it seemed) to try and figure out SS. They eventually gave up because his bat was too valuable.

Of course Beckham will have to move if he’s not good enough. Duh. The point is it’s way to early to say that with anything approaching certainty.

by aCone419 on Aug 25, 2025 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree also

I think the issue is that it seems Beckham will not remain at SS.

That’s way too forceful. There are whispers he might have to move, which is way different than saying he most likely will move.

He’s made a lot of errors this year, but that’s not really unexpected for a teenager in A ball.

by aCone419 on Aug 25, 2025 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

If youre looking for a guy that “most likely will move” and has a thick lower half, well that’s Wilmer Flores, not Tim Beckham.

by alskor on Aug 25, 2025 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jiovanni Mier

Your point 3 is why he is moving up my list. It’s only rookie ball but like seeing that his bat is ok so far. Albeit he has slumped last month or so.

by wobatus on Aug 25, 2025 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bonuses

I look at it this way.

If somebody spoke to a high ranking official off the record and gave him the choice. Flores for 700K or Beckham for 6.15 million, who would he choose? If he said Beckham, he would just be trying to protect the brand.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Aug 25, 2025 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, sure

But that doesn’t really have anything to do with their future projection as players, which is what we’re really concerned with here.

by aCone419 on Aug 25, 2025 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice Writeup!...

My thoughts on the subject (although I repeat much of what you think!):
Here’s how I see it: Flores has a higher floor than Beckham, due to the fact that he is ahead of Beckham’s current learning curve; I base that conclusion off of age (Flores is a year and half younger and playing at the same level), and contact rate/batting eye:

Beckham= 105 SO/477 PA: 22% SO rate
Flores= 61 SO/462 PA: 13% SO rate

With that said, I think that Beckham has a larger ceiling because he has a better shot at sticking at SS (although some think that he still may move in the future); he has better speed, and a larger range at short in any case. Flores profiles in the future as a power hitting 3B with good contact rates (think .300+), whereas Beckham profiles as a 25/25 threat with plus defense at short. In the end I will take Flores, a guy that has more time to refine his skills than Beckham does (in addition, Flores has much less pressure on him than Beckham does….As you stated, Beckham has a LOT of money riding on him.)

by soccerman0 on Aug 24, 2025 9:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

beckham?

He has NEVER profiled as a “25/25 threat with plus defense at short”. His power tool has always been fringy. . .it takes a lot of projection to see his power playing as ML average one day, let alone that kind of pop. 25 stolen bases? The guy’s speed graded out as 55 in high school and it doesn’t sound like that has changed. Defensively . . .I think the OP broke it down pretyt well.

That being said, I think Beckham’s still a pretty nice prospect. His package of tools has never really been what you would hope for out of a #1 overall pick (nothing grades out as plus-plus except maybe his arm), and perhaps he isn’t quite as polished as some believed, but his production has been respectable for a 19 year old making his full season debut.

I’d take him over Flores. Intriguing bat but still need to project a lot there, and I really don’t anticipate him being much defensively. Just so many things that need to go right there.

by mrkupe on Aug 24, 2025 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what?

I certainly wouldn’t compare Beckham to Hanley (and wouldn’t have done so at an earlier time) . . .but I haven’t seen anybody else come out with that one, either.

Not that you can’t find things about the two that are similar, but Hanley’s tools were definitely better. More speed, faster bat, better power potential. His raw physical potential was never in doubt.

He’d be lucky to be anywhere as good as Hanley Ramirez (who is one of the most talented players in the game), but that doesn’t mean he can’t be good in the general sense.

by mrkupe on Aug 25, 2025 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

when he was drafted

wasnt he compared to hanley??

like a lesser version of him tho

by matthewmafa on Aug 25, 2025 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't remember anything along those lines

Beckham’s tools just weren’t THAT good. There were some Edgar Renteria comps going around . . .and while even Hanley himself got those comps too, they stemmed more from a general belief that Hanley wasn’t going to live up to his physical potential rather than a lack of belief in his overall talent.

Actually, if you compare the young Renteria to Beckham, you’ll find that while Renteria’s production was lower, his plate discipline was significantly better. Plus he was just plain faster. The “poor man’s Renteria” might sound a little harsh, but frankly when you break everything down, that’s not far from the truth at this point. He’ll hit for average but projecting anything else at this point is very in the air, and while his production is okay it’s not going to change the mind of any doubters.

by mrkupe on Aug 25, 2025 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah that's the comp I remember.

Though I always thought that was pretty generous in the SB department.

by aCone419 on Aug 25, 2025 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Love the comments by aCone419 and soccerman0

Two things though….

What if Beckham winds up as a 15/10 guy who can only play a passable SS and winds up being Christian Guzman-like offensively from an average/obp standpoint? While that definitely has value, I don’t know if that’s perennial all-star material.

aCone419, I do brush off the fielding a touch because this is more of a current comparison and Flores is actually doing a pretty nice job considering what’s been said. I could have been more clear that Flores’ contact tool and Beckham’s perceived fielding tool cancel out to me because the gaps are wide.

Beckham’s body type was a HUGE concern to me. There’s really not much more I can say about it that I haven’t previously.

Is it worse to be a guy who is expected to come off of the position who is fielding better than expected or a player who was billed as a plus defender who is now looked at as adequate to average at best?

It has always been assumed Flores’ bat will carry him so his being decent at SS at this point is a huge bonus. Beckham NEEDS to be a solid average to plus defender to live up to the all-around billing he had previously been given. Average speed + barely average defender = HUGE hit to his prospect status in my book.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Aug 24, 2025 9:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

i really don't know where you're coming from with "HUGE" concerns about Beckham's body

… I haven’t heard this from anywhere else… and looking at pictures/video of him… I don’t quite understand. he looks athletic. he doesn’t have the broadest shoulders, but that’s hardly a concern.

by daveh33 on Aug 25, 2025 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I stood next to Beckham

Only a fence between us. When I see a 19-year old with a huge lower half, I’m thinking it’s a hindrance, not a strength. At full season A, I prefer guys with both physical and baseball projection. I may very well be off on how concerned I am about his lower half affecting both his range and power projection, but i see very little room for additional growth except for his shoulders.

If Flores has BOTH significant baseball and physical projection left, and Beckham has some baseball and physical projection left, I tend to go for the guy with the higher ceiling. Of course you also have the train of thought of taking guys with higher floors which Beckham is.

Ultimately, I think both players are pretty equal when you grade everything out. As with the piece, it comes back to the risk involved with both guys. If the Rays had to do it all over again, I suspect one of the college guys would be the direction they went. Some suspected the Beckham pick was because of his signability. In seeing him live, this because pretty obvious as he didn’t have near the athletic ability of Jason Heyward, Mike Stanton, and even Casey Kelly.

Mike Newman

by ScoutingTheSally on Aug 25, 2025 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

rays

should’ve taken buster posey number one overall.

by richieabernathy on Aug 26, 2025 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe they - rightfully - hate Seminoles…?

by alskor on Aug 26, 2025 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, again...

Based on everything I have read, noone believes Flores is a SS in the bigs. He’ll be lucky to stick at 3B.

Beckham has struggled in the field, but his issues have mainly been mental in nature. He has the athleticism to get to the ball hit in the hole, but for whatever reason sometimes he botches the routine grounder. As long as he stays coachable, this is a problem that is easily fixed.

I really think to a large degree we are comparing apples and oranges - a 3B vs. a SS. And to me, this cancels out the $$ difference.

by guru4u on Aug 25, 2025 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

really?

Castro is 19 and holding his own in AA. I would think he has to be considered somewhere near these guys. He doesn’t have much power at all, but he is a quality SS.

by asyouwish33 on Aug 25, 2025 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has

nowhere near the hitting ability of Flores or Beckham.

Simple as that.

by METSMETSMETS on Aug 25, 2025 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So his .300 BA and .350 OBP between High A and AA are flukish?

or are both Flores, (.263 BA, .302 OBP) in Low A, and Beckham (.281, .335) also in Low A, that much better JUST BECAUSE? I understand the idea of projecting players based on body type, speed, and the like, but the simple reasoning that he doesn’t have the hitting ability doesn’t really suffice, especially when statistics show he does.

by asyouwish33 on Aug 25, 2025 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Castro compares to Tejada, as we’ve been in previous discussions. Tejada/Castro do not, in any way, compare as prospects to Flores/Beckham. They’re just entirely different kinds of players with different projectability.

by Lunkwill Fook on Aug 25, 2025 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can see this

but, is castro similar to Carlos Gomez in that he projects for 5-10 homers a year/ 30-40 SB while Beckham projects as poster says 12-15 hr? Is that the major difference?

by asyouwish33 on Aug 26, 2025 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Carlos Gomez?

Gomez projects to hit a lot more than 5-10 homers a year.

by T Pac on Aug 26, 2025 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the most he has hit is 8 in 500 PA in Sally League

Not sure he is capable of hitting much more than 10, let alone a lot more.

by asyouwish33 on Aug 26, 2025 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

project

To calculate, estimate, or predict (something in the future), based on present data or trends

If you honestly believe that Gomez projects to hit 5-10 homers a year, I don’t know how your opinion on prospects can be taken seriously.

by T Pac on Aug 26, 2025 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess youre right...

…1-4 is probably more reasonable, given his lack of playing time and complete and utter lack of power.

He has 12 HRs in 1050 MLB PA’s. Kid is a slap hitter and there’s really not much reason to believe he’ll be more than that to the extent that he will hit for extra bases. He’s an awful hitter right now… just awful. Didnt really hit in the minors, either. Carlos Gomez is an athlete they slapped a baseball uniform on. Only the Twins (and select Mets fans on this site who insisted at length their package was better than the rumored Sox and Yanks deals) were foolish enough to see a hitter there.

I understand youre making a projection/prediction - Im just not sure what the heck would make you think he’s “going to hit a lot more than 5-10 homers a year.” “A lot more?” Im having a hard time seeing him hit 10 a year. He’s like… the worst hitter in baseball.

by alskor on Aug 26, 2025 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you can't have it both ways

Tim Beckham has only hit 7 HRs in his entire pro career. How could you possibly project him to hit for power in the bigs? Oh right, because he the tools.

It’s undeniable that Gomez is a terrible hitter right now. But it’s just as undeniable that he’s got power potential. And he did hit 7 HRs last year as a 22 year old. It’s also going to be tough with the Twins insisting that he keep bunting and pounding the ball into the ground. But it’s beyond silly to think that his power can’t get improve.

Alex Rios hit one HR in his first season in the bigs, and didn’t show too much in the minors. And I’m sure people like yourself called him a slap hitter too.

by T Pac on Aug 26, 2025 2:51 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uh, no

There’s a pretty big difference when projecting a 19 year old with 600 AB and a 23 year old with 2000+.

People expected power with Rios because he had 50+ XBH in AA at the age of 22.

by aCone419 on Aug 26, 2025 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a big Gomez fan

but Rios had 31 xbh at age 20 in the Sally in 526 PAs while Gomez had 39 at age 20 in 486 PAs in the Eastern League. The Bing isn’t a tough homer park and not sure about splits. Rios had 54 in 563 PAs at 22 in AA. Gomez had 38 xbh in the majors the same age Rios was getting his 50+ in AA

Rios had a lower K rate. Not sure about flyballs etc. in the minors.

Nonetheless, i think Rios has more power than Gomez, as y’all say, but not sure how easily the minor league stats prove that.

by wobatus on Aug 26, 2025 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

true, but

just watching both players, a person can tell rios is closer to a power hitter than Gomez. Gomez is definitely more in the mold of a slap hitter.

by asyouwish33 on Aug 26, 2025 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correct

The difference isnt in numbers - it was a scouting difference, and a huge one.

by alskor on Aug 26, 2025 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

indeed

This is what I was saying. Rios’s 50+ at age 22 in AA doesn’r seem too different than 39 at 20. Maybe Gomez’s homers were all in the park. :) Like I said, Gomez had more xbh at 20 in AA than Rios had at 20 in sally.

Meddler, who is a mets fan like me but usually quite rational discussing their prospects, acknowledged in the “who i missed” thread he overrated Gomez’s projectability on that score. But there was likely something there for him to see it.

7 homers at 20 in AA. 7 in majors at 22. It isn’t hard tro conceive someone like that hitting 15, albeit it might take some adjustment to his swing/approach.

Right now i suppose that does seem optimistic.

I remember when the Cubs traded palmeiro and the suspicion ws he’d never hit for iB power, i seem to recall. After hiting 14 in half a season. :) Well, i guess they never suspected he’d dvelope his physique quite as well as he did. :)

by wobatus on Aug 26, 2025 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to clarify

I could certainly see 10-15. T Pac wrote:

Gomez projects to hit a lot more than 5-10 homers a year.

Can’t agree with that at all.

by alskor on Aug 26, 2025 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

15 max

maybe, if he gets the pt.

by wobatus on Aug 26, 2025 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

May have been an exaggeration

But saying someone projects to hit 5-10 homers, after they’ve already hit 7 at the MLB level at age 22, seems ridiculous to me. Especially when you are talking about a guy who is 6’4."

At the peak of his prospect status, I think most people projected him to hit for 20-25 HRs at his peak.

by T Pac on Aug 26, 2025 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Size really doesn't matter too much

Speaking as an A’s fan, I can tell you the 6’4 sweeney will never hit 15 homers. Just because I know how he hits. No way its happening.

by asyouwish33 on Aug 26, 2025 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Size is important when it comes to power

But it isn’t the end all be all of power. We project a player to have plus power because of power, hands, bat speed, ect. Simply because someone is 6’4 does not mean that he will hit 20 plus homeruns. I asked if Castro would be similar to Gomez in that I see Gomez more of a slap hitter than a power hitter. In nearly 600 AB he hit 7 homers. I concede in one chance year he may hit 13, but he will probably be a 5-10 homerun hitter. I didn’t say anything about doubles power, which he has.

Regardless of Gomez, I still wonder about the initial claim that Castro is no where near the hitter that Beckham and Flores are. If they are different types of hitters that’s fine, but how is it that he doesn’t have the “ability”?

by asyouwish33 on Aug 27, 2025 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can my ego resist a name drop?

‘spose it can’t. I think the thing about Gomez that really lead to his power projection getting overrated, aside from his raw size and apparent strength, was that his OBP in Double-A was very misleading. By hitting .275 / .355 / .392 at age 20 in Double-A, there was some hope that he was developing the skills side of hitting by being a bit more patient and selective with what pitches he was swinging at. However, the reason this was grossly misleading was that he was hit by 20 pitches in 486 PAs that season.

I do think Gomez’s HR totals undersell his raw strength, and that his size is relevant, the problem is that he just has no pitch selection abilities whatsoever. He’s pretty much a pure guess hitter with a big, wild swing. He’s done virtually nothing to correct these issues since his time in the high minors, and so it seems unlikelier by the year that he’ll ever find a way to do more at the plate. Good thing for him he’s one of the best defensive outfielders in the game, or he’d have a hard time sticking around.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Meddler on Aug 26, 2025 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

they kept hitting him

because they feared his untapped power. :)

by wobatus on Aug 27, 2025 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

-Carlos Gomez doesnt have the tools, thats the difference. Show me a source who thinks he has the tools to hit for power.

-I completely deny that he has power potential. I really dont see that at all.

by alskor on Aug 26, 2025 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

is that it?

Is Delomon Young some bird-chested wimp too? It isn’t their swing, or as Meds suggested for carlos, pitch recognition?

by wobatus on Aug 27, 2025 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aha

I see the problem.

http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/502*323/twin0509.gomez2.jpg

he’ll never get it outta thye park that way.

I checked out some photios and he does look a little thin in the upper body, but can’t tell exactly.

by wobatus on Aug 27, 2025 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The guy weighs 215

But is extremely thin through the shoulders.

by Fanon on Aug 27, 2025 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By which I should say

A ton of his weight is in his lower body, which makes for his explosive speed. As such, the swing he has fits his natural game much better than a more power oriented swing might.

by Fanon on Aug 27, 2025 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Castro has a much higher offensive ceiling

None of these guys discussed play defense as well as Tejada. But he’s not a guy with a lot of offensive projection. Comparing defensively, Flores has the hands, but no speed. Castro has some range, but (at the moment) not the hands or footwork.

But Starlin Castro has a much higher offensive ceiling than Tejada. He’s got enough size that you think he might even end up moving off SS, but very athletic and toolsy as well, so maybe not. He also has room on his frame to continue to add power. And his hitting ability right now is pretty similar to Flores, but two levels higher.

Flores is bigger and thus has even more power projection. Flores is 6’3. He’s basically a 3B or 1B, but will also likely have the power for 3B or 1B as well as he fills out. He’ll eventually likely have plus power. But, that projection is where most of his value is.

Tejada at the other extreme is a skinny 5’ 11 without much projection. He projects to an Asdrubal Cabrera type, with maybe only a bit more pop. His outstanding contact and OBP skills will make him a starter, as a pesky top of order type.

Castro though is somewhere in between those. He’ll likely have something like 20 HR power as he fills out. He’s 6’1, with a frame that can definitely add power. His contact rate right now in A+ and AA is comparable to Flores in low A. IF he did have to move off SS, he’d have the tools to be good at 3B, or even be a very good corner OF. Maybe even CF. His bat could potentially play almost anywhere.

That involves a lot of projection, but there’s also a lot of projection involved if you assume Flores is going to have the power for 3B or 1B. I think Castro does compare favorably to Beckham. He’s got better all around tools than Beckham, more speed than Beckham, more power potential than Beckham, more potential to stick at SS, and is currently a more advanced hitter at the same age.

Comparing to Flores is tougher, as Flores really isn’t a SS. You could go with Flores if you really buy into him eventually having 25+ HR power, and he does have good hands so should fit well defensively at 3B or 1B. But Castro seems the safer bet as his overall package will potentially play at whatever position he ends up. And he might even stick at SS.

 

by acerimusdux on Aug 27, 2025 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmm

Castro is listed at fangraphs at 6 foot 150 lbs., tejada at 6 foot 160 lbs. Their iso is similar.

I am a little disappointed tejada’s walk rate has dropped as year went on. Funny, he was walking but not getting hits in April and that reversed. Monthly samples are small though.

by wobatus on Aug 27, 2025 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What on earth does "bonus" have to do with anything?

They’re sunk costs. The additional cost to their employers of employing these players is, in baseball terms, so close to zero as makes no odds.

A guy isn’t a better prospect just because he happened to sign for less money. Otherwise Ben Hornbeck would be like the #1 pitching prospect… because his signing bonus was pretty much a night on the town and a Christmas card.

Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving

by PaulThomas on Aug 25, 2025 1:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Less Pressure, and Easier for the Team

First, you are correct that in no way does a lower signing bonus make one player better than another…But if one guy has a signing bonus of $500K and another guy has a signing bonus of $8 million, the guy who has a lower signing bonus has a lot less pressure on him, and if the player becomes a bust it is easier for the team. Comparatively the guy who has a larger signing bonus has more pressure on him to perform well, and is harder for the team to lose if he becomes a bust.

by SoxRock58 on Aug 25, 2025 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's not entirely true

Bonuses vary hugely from Latin signings to Pacific Rim signings to domestic draftees. I don’t think you can really say that a guy has more pressure on based on more money. Ynoa has the record bonus for a Latin amateur, and he’s right in the same ballpark as Beckham.

by Fanon on Aug 27, 2025 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Value

I’m sure what Mike is getting at is the fact that the Mets could sign more talents to get into their system because Flores was so cheap. Has nothing to do with the individual’s prospect status, but it does have some implications in the overall management of the entire franchise.

by guru4u on Aug 25, 2025 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's more of a statement on the international market versus the draft.

How many international guys get signed for six-figure bonuses that barely make it state-side? If you figure in bonus you have to look at the guys that didn’t make it. I think comparing bonus after the fact is an exercise in futility.

by rglass44 on Aug 25, 2025 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

And I don’t have the exact figures in front of me, but if you ask this simple question:

Would you rather have Tim Beckham at $6.5 million or Wilmer Flores at $300,000?

It makes for a pretty difficult decision. Which would you rather have? From a pure value standpoint, there is a very solid argument that Flores is the better value, despite Beckham being the better prospect.

by guru4u on Aug 25, 2025 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

if we are talking value... i still take Beckham.

finding a replacement level veteran corner OF for cheap is much easier than finding a SS.

the fact of the matter is, SS is 10x more difficult a position to find offensive production at, compared with LF [which is where Flores is heading]….

this is probably why the Rays value guys like Brignac/Bartlett, and pick guys like Beckham over all-bat-no-D guys like Alvarez…. if you look at the production they get from guys like Gross/Kapler/Aybar, they’ve kind of proven you can find cheap and productive players to fill the OF. not so easy at SS.

by daveh33 on Aug 25, 2025 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey STS, matt Moore?

Have you not seen him? Would like your take. He had a rough outting last go round, but he seemed to be improving his control and overall performance since the start of the year.

by wobatus on Aug 25, 2025 2:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs


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