Taking a Historic Look at 2007 Prospect Rankings
This post originally appeared at Steal of Home
Because why not? I have a database that includes all of Baseball America's, Baseball Prospectus's and ESPN's prospect rankings since their inception. The first year any website besides Baseball America ran a ranking was five years ago, when Baseball Prospectus started theirs. Now seems like a good time to compare these lists and see how well each place fared. My database also includes the current Fangraphs WAR of each player, which will serve as the value metric.
If players who never made the Major Leagues count as 0 WAR, BA outpaces BP in terms of average WAR overall (6.1 to 5.7) and average WAR in the top 20 (10.6 to 9.8). BA also has 21 players who surpassed the 10 career WAR mark, two more than BP's 19.
There are six players who made both lists that never made the major leagues: Adam Miller, Bill Rowell, Donald Veal, Chuck Logren, Brandon Erbe and Will Inman. Miller was ranked in the top 25 of both lists.
Differences
Each list has 14 players that are exclusive to that list.
The two big names that stick out are Kurt Suzuki and Elvis Andrus. My guess is that Kevin Goldstein did now want to include Matsuzaka on the list because he came from Japan, not the minor leagues. I can't find any definitive proof of that, though. Of the players on this list, Goldstein names Suzuki, Drew Stubbs, Neil Walker and Brian Barton as players that "just missed the cut." He also does rank Andrus, Gio Gonzalez, Daniel Bard, Jeff Samardzija and Greg Reynolds in subsequent years.
So far, Kevin Kouzmanoff is the only player with more than 10 career WAR that BA "missed" on this ranking. Edinson Volquez, Sean Rodriguez and Neftali Feliz may all surpass that mark yet. There are two players exclusive to BP's list that have not made the Major Leagues: Angel Villalona and Javier Herrera. Villalona was ranked in 2008 and 2009 by BA but has yet to crack High-A. Herrera was ranked by BA in 2005 and 2006, but never made it past Triple-A. This ranking from BP is quite odd, since he had Tommy John surgery in 2006. In 2010, he pitched in the Independent Leagues and has no statistics on baseball-reference from 2011.
Conclusion
The biggest miss for both lists is obviously Brandon Wood. Both had him in their top 10 and he has so far put up a negative major league WAR. The biggest miss besides Wood was Delmon Young. He was ranked third overall on both lists and has only put up 1.6 WAR so far in his career.
Ubaldo Jimenez was the best player that was ranked in the back end of each list's top 100. He was #66 for BP and #84 for BA.
In general, it appears that Baseball America has the slight advantage over Baseball Prospectus as the best 2007 prospect ranking. However, the difference is very small and this was a fine performance for BP's first ever ranking.
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Good work
Very interesting.
One point. Of course it is crazy to suggest that Delmon Young has only been worth 1.6 WAR but, thats thier number. I dont think it represents reality though.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 1, 2025 4:41 PM EDT reply actions
If you'd prefer BB-Ref, they've got Delmon at -0.1 WAR for his career.
It’s not hard to believe when you consider he doesn’t get on base, doesn’t hit for power, doesn’t run well, and is almost universally viewed as a very poor defender.
by PissedMick on Nov 1, 2025 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
It still is, to me
He does get on base, a .321 on base percentage is hardly great but, it isn’t replacement level either, it’s league average - .323 this year.
he hits for power too, obviously. he is one year removed from a year that he had 46 doubles and, 21 home runs, playing half hui games at Target Field. His slugging pct has been above average too, .428 is above .408
According to your own stat, WAR, he has been 5.3 wins above replacement with it so its hard to argue that he doesn’t hit enough top have some value.
I’m not even going to adress baserunning. You’d have to show me sonme metric that shows he hurts a team with his baserunning, whatever lol
Whats left is defense, and while not good, I doubt he gives nack all his value with the bat out in the field. The defensive numbers on BBref back this up some too.
His career has been a disappointment thus far, yes. He is not a star by any means but, a neartreplacemant level player? I think it is crazy to assert that, personally, Mr. Mick.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 1, 2025 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Delmon
Has a 1.6 career WAR according to Fangraphs, so sure, in 4 years, he’s about a 0.4 WAR player on average. He’s always had a negative defensive rating. He’s still in his prime, so has a chance to get a touch better, but he’s a far cry from what he was a s a prospect, and easily a disappointment.
Of course, those numbers don’t represent reality, which reminds me of your posts sometimes:)
by killa on Nov 1, 2025 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh whatever dude!
Take the easy softball I served you, why don’t you? I already know what number Fangrapohs has assigned his value, that was what my comment was about.
I don’t think he is worth .4 win per season above replacement. Ithink the totall is scewed by they’re highly-schizo defensive rating! I realize this is an argument I can’t win, of course. I don’t know Delmons exact cost or value as a defender but . . . neither does anybody else!
I just like to see people get all aflame about thier favorite, little website, that bundles things up for them in a neat little number so they don’t have to watch, evaluater, and think things through :)
You didn’t do that so, props to yyou KILLA! Oh, and, my posts always have a strong connection to reality . . . my reality anyways. lol
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 1, 2025 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
"don’t represent reality, which reminds me of your posts sometimes:)"
Killa indeed, lol
by blackoutyears on Nov 2, 2025 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the compliment
. . . by endorsing the fact that I occasionally make sense - sometimes! Thats the nicest thing you have indirectly said about me BOY.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 2, 2025 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Only you
could mistake that for a compliment.
by blackoutyears on Nov 3, 2025 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you
Once again, for the compliment. An insult from you = a compliment
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
"An insult from you = a compliment'
which is completely unrelated to how you first spun it, based on Killa’s use of sometimes. Move the goalposts because you aren’t making sense? You? Never! lol
I love the elementary school retort btw. Very much in keeping with your persona’s intellectual and emotional level. What’s next? You’re rubber and I’m glue?
by blackoutyears on Nov 3, 2025 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Right Asshole
Kinda ,like following someone around like a the shit-heel you are and, insulting them every day. Whatever Man.
Yes, I’m fucking rubber and you are glue. Talk about baseball or, leave me alone.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
All you had to do
was ignore me. Can’t do it? lol
by blackoutyears on Nov 3, 2025 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't even want to
. . . ignore you. It’s suffering but, I’ve endured worse. I’d rather talk about baseball, to be honest. I dfon’t get to set the terms of the conversation though, you do.
There is nothing I can do to stop you. Such is life. I’d plea to your humanity but, ala, with me you have none it appears :(
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
"I’d rather talk about baseball,"
Let me know when you start…
by blackoutyears on Nov 3, 2025 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
'a 0.4 WAR player '
So basically 2010 Matt Kemp according to said website then. Oy gevalt.
by Matt0330 on Nov 3, 2025 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
A league-average hitter with average defense in left field is a below-average player
A league-average hitter with bad defense in left field is a replacement-level player. Just because we don’t really know precisely how bad he is doesn’t mean that you can just wave it away.
Why do WAR skeptics always say that it’s “crazy” to believe that defense can have a tangible effect on baseball games? You admit that he’s a bad left-fielder, but you think it just isn’t important? Why not sign Adam Dunn to play shortstop, then?
by psiogen on Nov 2, 2025 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying any of that
I think his defense has an effect on the game, just not enough to make him a replacement player. Go look at his defensive ratings on BBref. Does 4-10 runs below average aper year on defense take away ALL of his value with the bat? I think your example of putting Dunn at SS, isn’t exactly reasonable now is it? There is a middle ground there.
I just don’t think WAR’s valuation of the cost of his defense is remotely accurate. Again, people who support and love WAR admit that thir defensive rankings are unreliable, so there exists NOBODY who can accurately tell me what he is costing or, worth, out there. Please find me the stat that does this.
I’d rather know imprtecisely like we do now and, yes we can wave away a metric that doesn’t make sense.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 2, 2025 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Defense = Offense
Delmon is worse than a 10 runs below average on defense. He is also only had 1 full season in which he batted above a league average level, as evident by his career wRC+ of 98.
Delmon, being a below average hitter, and an awful defender, is a replacement level player. Whether or not a run is saved on defense or created on offense, it holds the same value.
“Again, people who support and love WAR admit that thir defensive rankings are unreliable”
Wrong. People admit that one year UZR samples are often not accurate of talent level on the defensive side of the ball. Fortunately, we have many years of data to use on Delmon Young.
Now as for his WAR total, you are also dismissing the positional value of a LF. Seeing as it is one of the easier positions to play defensively, it has less value than say, a SS. Take about 6 runs a seasons because of the position he plays.
One last thing: lol rWAR
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Lets check a couple things?
First, dudedudedude, a wRC of 98 sounds like an “average” hitter to me, not a “below average”, as far as characterizations of a player go. At least not squarely below average anyways.
Also, you say he is more than 10 runs below average on defense per season but, there are a couple of pretty reputable metrics that say he isn’t . . .
Here is total zone, per year and BIS’s runs saved metric . . . per 1200 innings
Toatal Zone BIS
2007 -8 +3
2008 -20 -9
2009 -6 -12
2010 -10 -8
2011 -2 -4
That doesn’t look like a player who is “worse than 10 runs below average on defense” per-season, like I said.
This is going nowhere, I admit. I have to also point out that I think Delmon is alo a better OFFENSIVE player than these metrics show - lol. I just don’t agree with several facets of WAR, sorry.
I’m pretty sure that Delmon Young, despite his flaws, is pretty far from a replacement player. Here’s a question dude3 . . . why doesn’t he get replaced then? A major league team has no benefit in playing a replacement level player for 5 years, that I know of. It’s not like he is an extremely likable, bad player, like a Nick Punto or, something.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Total zone?
You do realize that total zone is just based off the play by play right? It was a metric created to evaluate fielders before they UZR and grids came out. Why on earth would we use that when we have a more advanced and accurate version?
As for being replaced, their are a variety of reasons. The first is the abundance of insane general managers. You have people giving him contracts based on the perceived value of his performance. Ask a GM like Friedman, Anthopoulos, Beane, or Hoyer what they think about his performance and value. Then ask a an old school GM who doesn’t believe in math and therefore rejects WAR as you seem to be doing and you will get a totally different answer. Another is potential. Nick Punto isn’t going to come out and swat 30 homers magically in a season, where as Delmon being a former top prospect, is perceived to have that chance.
Delmon Young is truly an awful player.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
one thing
I don’t think anybody really thinks Delmon has a chance at hitting 30 HR in a given year, but it’s worth noting that in 2010, he did hit 21 HR with 46 doubles on top of that at age 24-25.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't believe he will either
But I’d take him over Punto on hitting 30 if I had to put money on it.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
?
Ecven if it is an outdatyed metric, why would it HELP Delmon look better than he is? Couldn’t it just as well make him look worse?
So UZR is unreliabl;e in a given season but, its also the best we have?? I cant buy that.
What problems do you have with BIS runs raved system?
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Another funny one
It’s unreliable given one season of data, but we have multiple seasons. His career UZR/150 is -11 runs. After this many seasons, we are able to made accurate assumptions about his defense based on UZR. Total zone isn’t nearly as accurate in the long term.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
You just told me that Delmon was way worse than 10 runs below average per season, didn’t you?
You made this whole hoo-haw about UZR being superior to TZ and, didn’t even mention the BIS data, now you show me info with the same conclusions! I’m going to have to laugh at that one.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Apart from his positive values in his career, yes
He is has gotten progressively worse.
UZR is more specific than runs saved. A few minute differences that runs saved does not account for are pitcher tendencies. Fielding for a flyball pitcher will be easier than a groudball pitcher for example.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see
progressively worse. I see -2 and -4 for 2011.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said
One year samples are not indicative of true talent level.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
You can’t both state he gotten progresively worse then, wrtite off his 2011 numbers when they aren’t worse can you. There isn’t any progressiom here.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's one thing I don't get about UZR and WAR.
Everyone acknowledges that one year UZR numbers are unreliable. Yet EVERYONE quotes 1 year WAR numbers like they are sacrosanct indications of someones value. Which is it kiddies?
If UZR is unreliable until you hit the 3 year mark then WAR is unreliable and only a vague indication of value after 3 years. Single season WAR stats are to be taken with a huge grain of salt.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
by padmadfan on Nov 3, 2025 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
context and general rules of thumb
what people are saying, usually, is that one-year UZR samples are largely unreliable as a statistic in predicting the future
from a current year performance standpoint, even if they may be somewhat inaccurate as a measurement for a given year’s performance, you can still eyeball the UZR and say if a guy is above average, neutral, or below average as a defender. if you want to simplify it, then just have the above average guy as +5 runs, the neutral (league average) guy as 0 runs, and below average guys as -5 runs.
by blue bulldog on Nov 3, 2025 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
False
There is always a level of uncertainty when discussing one year samples. If player’s are +/- one win of each other WAR wise, there’s a good chance they provided fairly equal value to their teams.
Compare Bautista to Kemp this season:
Kemp had a WAR of 8.7
Bautista had a WAR of 8.3
There aren’t many people out there that will put up a fight that one of these players was clearly better than the other. If they do, they generally don’t know what they are talking about.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats false
WAR is, right now, the best number we have to quantify which player was, in fact, better. Whether or not that number is indicitive of their actual skill level this year or moving forward is up for debate, but WAR is the best statistical method we have of saying who is the “BEST” player from a raw numerical standpoint.
That is not to say that its a reliable number for predicting future value or even quantifying player value for this year (if you equalized their number of games played WAR gets even closer).
Again, there are a lot of other variables to take into considering, especially when using your term of “value to their teams” but from a raw, statistical perspective Matt Kemp was more valuable a baseball player then Bautista this past season.
by ADLC on Nov 4, 2025 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
stupid no edit
That was supposed to say “Quantifying player value to their team” in the second paragraph.
by ADLC on Nov 4, 2025 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions
You just proved you don't understand it
Single season UZR deviations change significantly, and we don’t know whether or not Bautista would have performed better with the number of balls Kemp saw and vice versa. If you trust single season UZR stats, sure, you can say that Kemp was better, but anyone with half a mind knows that while accurate in the long term, single season does not represent actual value.
by dudedudedude on Nov 4, 2025 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
what dudex3 is saying, and I agree
is that .4 WAR in one year is within a reasonable margin of error, and that essentially they are equally valuable players given the information we know and the current validity of that information.
by cookiedabookie on Nov 4, 2025 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
"what dudex3 is saying, and I agree is that .4 WAR in one year is within a reasonable margin of error, and that essentially they are equally valuable players given the information we know and the current validity of that information."
Well said. In defense of those who cavil at the use of WAR, there are an awful lot of people out there who don’t seem to be aware of that margin.
by blackoutyears on Nov 4, 2025 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice post
I agree with you. There are some of us who take UZR (no matter how big the sample) with a grain of salt anyways due to all sorts of issues with potential bias, data pollution, general unreliability, etc & when considering the prominent role the dubious metric plays in the formulation of another dubious one (WAR), it is more than defensible to not accept either of them as absolute gospel in my estimation.
God, that was a boring sentence. I liked the way you said it better!
by Matt0330 on Nov 4, 2025 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
'Delmon Young is truly an awful player'
Good god.
by Matt0330 on Nov 3, 2025 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you think of that Matt?
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
He was probably going for simplicity or shock value
Delmon Young had a very poor season but he rebounded more than a little bit post-trade (including contributions in October) & his 2010 was an absolutely notable showing that shouldn’t be discounted. The statement doesn’t specifically say so, but it seems to imply that Young doesn’t have room to improve (which I disagree with).
As compared to the way he was perceived as as a prospect, sure, he’s been a relative disappointment, but I don’t think he is anywhere close to being ‘awful’ or the equivalent of a so-called replacement player. Just an opinion.
by Matt0330 on Nov 3, 2025 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, at least someone agrees with me
I agree with all of that.
I also don’t think he was going for shock value, uunfortunately. Such is the brain-washing of WAR. Its far worse than any other stat imaginable. It actually brain washes people about players.
If Nick Punto played in Colorado and batter 4th, in front of three guys with .450 OBPs, and drove in 130 runs one year, I wouldn’t be the least bit biased about his quality as a ballplayer. He would still not be very good, sorry Nick.
WAR, however, tries to pass off lies as truth. Like 2010 Matt Kemp and countles other examples, like Delmon Young.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not shock value, it's fact
It’s easy to call something brain washing when you are simply incapable of understanding how WAR works, or even it’s intended purpose. Of course it’s going to be tough to grasp. Telling someone that their eyes are totally wrong is not easy to do, but numbers are more accurate than eyesight.
For some strange reason, you want to deny the research that the likes of Bill James, Sean Smith and Tom Tango of done on the basis of not believing in facts.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If you think
. . . that putting something in number form makes it a fact, well, it doesn’t.
I’ve been reading Bill James since before you were born.
I’ve been looking at WAR for a few years now and, I think I understand and appreciate its purpose. I sort of agreee with its offensive priciples, the defensive adjustment, and UZR. I just disagree with its accuracy.
You are saying it is usually accurate and it’s numbers state facts. i am saying that it doesn’t.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
On what basis?
I can say aliens exist, but without proof, it means nothing. What is wrong about the accuracy? wRAA is based on years of historical data which do not understate the value of Delmon’s offensive contributions.
Yes, it is accurate, as batter/pitcher matchups are one of the few isolated matchups in all of sports which is why we are able to calculate the offensive value of players.
Do some research and tell why it’s inaccurate, not just sit up on a pedestal and pretend you are all knowing.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
There are hundreds of other stats that attempt to evaluate offense. This is not the first or, last. It is you who thinjk everything has been solved abdd they know all.
To notice innacuracy does not meen I claim to know all the answers.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
What is inaccurate?
You still have answered that. What does it undervalue/overvalue?
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I did answer
It’s just one stat. The burdedn of proof is on ity, not me.
There are lots of stats out there. Besides, you already know that the UZR stat is innacurate right?
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Holy shit you're dumb
UZR is inaccurate in small sample sizes, like I said a thousand times. Over multiple seasons, it is accurate.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
That does not make sense!
If it is really inaccurate one season, it isnt corrected by being accurate the next.
Tell me how that nmakesw sense if you are so damned smart?
You also do not know everything there is to know about offene because you know WAR. That is a fact.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
You have typing issues
It is correct over a large sample size. Is average an indication of true talent level over a season? What if a player has a .250 BABIP, when his xBABIP is .300? Over the next 100 seasons, his BABIP becomes equal to his xBABIP.
So in 1 season, his average was not indicative of his true talent level, while over the next 10 seasons, it was. This isn’t a tough concept.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
"This isn’t a tough concept."
It is for some. And you, sir, are caught in one of the most moronic bear traps on teh internets. May I suggest explaining calculus to dogs? Much more rewarding.
by blackoutyears on Nov 3, 2025 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
"I sort of agreee with its offensive priciples, the defensive adjustment, and UZR. I just disagree with its accuracy."
How does this make any sense?
by cookiedabookie on Nov 3, 2025 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Figure it out
I agree with what it is trying to do, I just don’t agree with its results
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Look out
He just mistook that for a compliment. lol
by blackoutyears on Nov 4, 2025 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
again, I think both sides are right
He really hasn’t been very good at all, but he’s still provided value in certain ways.
Really, if he had even mediocre plate discipline, he’d probably be an outstanding offensive asset. Unfortunately, he doesn’t . . .which leaves him in a bit of a grey area.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I admire your diplomacy
I really do. We may both have elements here that are right but, I think trying to assert that Delmon Young has contributed as much on the field in his career as Matt Albers or Andy LaRoche is comical.
This is actually my only assertion, initially. That he isn’t a player that should be in AAA ball. That is what that stat is saying about him. I think that is inaccurate. He’s a big league player, with some flaws.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
"'Delmon Young is truly an awful player' Good god."
Yeah, I don’t think overstatement helps this argument. Young is not very good player thanks to the deficiencies more than adequately outlined here, but “awful” is OTT. He’s useful for stretches, and he’s not expensive yet. I’m interested to see how much he’ll cost if he has another 2010 caliber season. I could see him turning into the sort of drain Carlos Lee has become if his rep keeps garnering him a job.
by blackoutyears on Nov 3, 2025 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
case
I might be opening a can of worms here, but what parts of WAR do you disagree with, with respect to Young?
Young doesn’t get replaced because for all of his warts, he is still a relatively young player (and for most of his career very reasonably priced, hint hint) who has yet to hit his prime, and his pure hitting ability is obvious. It doesn’t play up because of his lack of plate discipline, but in terms of raw talent he’s not THAT far off from being the 70 contact/70 power guy he was once projected to become. If the switch goes on, he clearly has the talent to be a valuable piece somewhere in the middle of the lineup. Of course, the defense is bad, very bad, and it takes a huge chunk of the value that he could offer.
So basically, he’s gotten in large part because of his combination of raw upside and low cost/team control. The second of those is going out the window, he’s probably too expensive for what he offers, unless the Tigers decide it’s just easier to keep him. The first of those becomes less relevant as he gets older without making that major breakthrough.
I think he’s going to hang around for a good while, he’s too good a hitter to sit in the minors. But unless he gets on base more and/or realizes more of his potential, I think his future is as a journeyman. I could see him being one of those types that quality teams love to have around as a situational piece, but who is never quite valuable enough to warrant regular play and/or a contract that lasts more than 2 years.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Answer
I think his “type” of offenvive player is more valuable in a real lineup than is represented by WAR. Before you label me crazy, let me elaborate so you can see just . . .; how . . . crazy. I Think that lower obp guys, with power, who put the ball in play with a decent avergqae have more use in a lineup than WAR gives thenm credit for. Just my opinion, educated by a million simulated games playwed over the years.
I also just don’t think he is as bad on defense as he is made out to be. Not a star like you say but, also not close to a replacement player.
A also would bet you that his best years are in front of him as well. He came into his own in 2010 - had an injury plagued year in 2011 - but, was playing good ball by the end of the year and, in the playoffs.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
This made me laugh
You are saying that based on your assumptions with no evidence whatsoever that the research done by Tango on the value of OBP and slugging percentage is wrong? I’ll take Tango’s research and fact based proof of value that Delmon Young’s skillset is not underrated.
The value of on base percentage is more valuable then slugging percentage, so even if a player hits for moderate power, if he doesn’t get on base, it doesn’t matter.
Think of it this way, you can hit all the doubles you want, but if that guy in front of you has a low OBP, you’re not driving anybody in.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Jumping to comclsions here
You can feel ANY way you want to about it. Im not trying to win you over so, calm down.
He DOES get on base. You are making a valuation of his abilities whebn you are saying that but, he gets on base as much as an averafge player does.
Nobody said anything about slugging percentage being more b=valuable than OBP. You jusmped to a conclusion there.
To your last piont, a very crucial one, that I’m sure you realize If you think about it. They go hand in hand. You also can’t generally score a run with just a walk either - you aren’t driving anyone in without some hits.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
just fyi, a walk with the bases loaded = RBI
4 walks gets you a run. 2 walks and 1 hit probably gets you a run. You are right in that the sequence is very important - a hit, then two walks gets you bases loaded, whereas walk, walk, then hit gets you a run. I have to be honest though, I’m not sure to what extent if any current measurement systems account for sequencing.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
True
That si why I said “gebnerally” :) The huge preponderance of runs cross the plate on base hits. Base hits are also rare, in the sense that they happen once onec in 3-5 trips to the plate right?
The hit is crucvial to the run scoring at all the hatred of the overrating of the RBI stat, and batting average, has tipped the scales the other way, in my opinion.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
just saying
If you think RBIs and batting average are underrated, you are more than welcome to do the legwork to illustrate how and why they are underrated. It’s the same impulse that drives people to do other sabermetric reseearch - including, of course, the research that you seem to take umbrage with.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
RBI's are totally overrated
People getting on base before you get up to bat is not under your control. Is a player who gets a double with no one on base worse than a player who gets a double with the bases loaded? Or does the second player just have better teammates. WAR’s main purpose is to identify player values, regardless of team context.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't believe RBIs are overrated these days
That statistic has been torn to shreds over the last several years.
Random rant: You’re getting into talking about “clutch” play, now, and whether or not it is a fiction. Nobody can find any reason to believe being “clutch” is a genuine trait, although intuitively there are reasons to think that it MIGHT exist. Some people do perform better under pressure, and there are almost certainly biological reasons for this. We just can’t draw the line - or maybe, a better way of looking at it might be is that we have already drawn the line and don’t even realize it. Hitting a baseball traveling at 90-95 mph takes tremendous skill and concentration, it’s not something that just anybody can do. We recognize biological differences between those who can do that and those who can’t. In other words, all baseball plate appearances are “clutch” - is it even possible (biologically or otherwise) for one PA to be more clutch than another?
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
NO
. . . but your words illustrate why the RBI was so beloved , for so long and, conversely why the lead-off walk was so underrated . . . and shouldn’t have been.
I ove the lead off walk but, I also love the two out- bases loaded single.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't take umbrage with anything
Its perfectly valid to question some things and ways we evaluate how offense works. thats why therera re new stats popping up all of the time - because, contrary to what some here believe, it hasn’t all been fuigured out yet.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Its perfectly valid to question some things and ways we evaluate how offense works. thats why therera re new stats popping up all of the time – because, contrary to what some here believe, it hasn’t all been fuigured out yet.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
simulated games?
Okay, I’m curious, what do you play? I’ve mentioned this before in passing, but I am an avid fan of the absolutely awesome OOTP series of games.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “have more use”. If you mean that they offer situational value that WAR does not adequately express, then you might be on to something assuming we’re talking about players who are not being utilized in the way they can be most productive (i.e. put in situations that emphasize their strengths, minimize their weaknesses).
If you mean that WAR isn’t assessing the performance of regular players properly, I’d want to see more specifics and a better evaluation mechanism than your intuition. Ditto on defense - not that defensive metrics are all that great at this point, but somewhat flawed information is more useful than information without any basis at all, provided the flaws are recognized.
It would make sense that his best years are ahead of him, yes. It’d be hard to see him measuring out even worse on defense in the years to come, and his peak power seasons are ahead of him. Those best years, though, might be best utilized (perhaps out of circumstances he can’t control) in a more limited role.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I play Diamond Mind Baseball
Its really great.
I think WAR isn’t expressing every player properly. But, I do not have a better metric. I will say that just the fact that are a million differtent metrics that attempt to measure all of offense indicates that the whole thing is inexact and, in flux. I think the key thing not looked at enough, is, like you said earlier, - sequencing. In general, you want an great on-base guy up but, not always.
On defense, believe it or not, it can actually be better to have no metric at all tghan a bad one. Last season Ellsburry terrible - this season great! Gutierrez great! Now just ok. I think they are all oveer the map and don’t have enough of a thread to reality to be useful. I think thier defensive metric causes insanity on a basball evaluating level! Not the worst stats around do anything like that Kupe. The most park scwed RBI total doesn’t fool me in that way, not batting avrage, not saves, no bad stat fooo as much as a bad UZR that I cant double check and am supposed to accept as reality. I wonty accept it because it doesn’t have the ring of truth to it enough.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree on your point re: defense
Actually, I disagree with it in general. Even poorly formulated methods of evaluation represent a contribution to intellectual progress; if they ultimately are found unsatisfactory, we will have benefited from knowing precisely why they are unsatisfactory. And there are many different ways to look at the same problem.
You could assume that the metric is wildly inconsistent . . .or you could take it as a sign that defense itself is inherently very, very difficult to be consistently good at. I’m not dedicated to either of those perspectives, but both are definitely on the table at this point.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Right!
Let me elaborate. I am not saying ignore it and it makes no contribution Or, to quit looking or, exploring.! I really am not. If however, you are making a do or die evaluation of a player, you have to throw out things that are not working.
I agree there is a lot of uncertainty and, more work is needed, and UZR may be on the verge of something wonderful and groundbreaking. For now though, it makes too many, and too big of, errors to be used as language. Which is what many ar doing here.
I cannot use the information to decribe Frankin Gutierrez 2009 season as great, or historic, or anything because I don’t know if that really occored on the field. I can tell you how many runs he drove in though. We need some tangibility to describe something, don’t we?
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Good conversation
Completely agree that attempting to better describe something (in this case, defense) is a worthy ‘contribution to intellectual progress’. The fuzzy (at best, probably) nature of UZR though playing such a prominent role in a WAR calculation is tough to look past though. For me at least.
I’m all for looking at ways to better understand things & hopefully that comes across in spades, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with noting the drawbacks of WAR &/or UZR. You’re obviously extremely rational about all this but some of the posts in here are a little too fervent (to the point of myopia even) in some ways.
by Matt0330 on Nov 4, 2025 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
'Last season Ellsburry terrible – this season great!'
True, even the maligned Delmon Young has made marked strides according to UZR - & in only 1 year’s time (while his offensive output dipped, no less).
by Matt0330 on Nov 3, 2025 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you're both right, really
You have lots of well-founded points here. At the same time, while I tend not to agree with casejud’s more . . .subjective . . .conclusions, I do see where he is coming from. Delmon Young is a mildly useful player - not a star by any means, not even a “good” player, but for a team looking for a shot of offense in the arm, he’s acceptable. His biggest liability at the plate, obviously, is that he just doesn’t walk at all, and it makes his production wildly inconsistent. Defensively . . .well, that’s just unfortunate. He had pretty good defensive tools as a youngster, very good runner and a big arm, prototype RF. Just compare a picture of him from when he was a prospect to how he looks now, though - where before he was lanky and almost lithe, his body has headed due south. Young is a great example of why you really can’t underestimate the possible negatives associated with physical projection.
On the plus side, Young hasn’t lost his good feel for hitting, and (minus this year’s crapfest in Minnesota) he’s developed solid power, and he’s not even in his prime years yet. Again, the big problem is that he just doesn’t walk, so I do think there is some value in distinguishing the difference between him and a player who just can’t hit at all.
I’m not a fan of Young as 500-550 AB/year type of guy at this point, but you know, if I could get him for, say, 300-350 ABs as a backup 1B/4th outfielder and pinch-hitting specialist, I think he could really shine and provide much more value than one might expect. Not surprisingly, he’s been very good against LHPs during his career, and his lack of patience likely wouldn’t be exploited or as deemed such a liability with less exposure. The issue, of course, is that in later innings you don’t want him in the field, which constrains your roster flexibility as you need a 5th OF to replace him after a pinch-hit AB.
by mrkupe on Nov 3, 2025 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Just being specific
If you put him in a place with less space like RF in NY or Baston or, something he really isn’t as bad as you think. He throws well, and doesn’t make a ton of dumb mistakes, that I can see. He just doesn’t run well but, he doesn’t have to be yanked out of the game in the late innings every time, i don’t think.
I think he also helped Detroit more with the bat than our standard metrics are showing.
I think he’ll have a real good year next year and, his best years are in front of him. We’ll see though. You are right that everybody will lose interest in him If he doesn’t perform well next season.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
"e throws well, and doesn’t make a ton of dumb mistakes, that I can see"
So is it safe to assume you have watched every defensive inning Delmon has played?
by cookiedabookie on Nov 3, 2025 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope
It’s also fair to say that you agree with every UZR valuation ever made? Without watching the pklayers play you would just trust them?
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
You just keep asserting that it "doesn't make sense" or it's "crazy"...
…to think that bad defense at a non-premium position could be enough to offset the positive value of his mediocre hitting. Why?
I’m not talking about UZR, I’m talking about common sense. Guys who can hit a little and play LF badly (or who can hit a little less but play LF a little better) are dime a dozen. The only question is whether he’s been a little bit above replacement level or a little bit below.
by psiogen on Nov 3, 2025 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
I see a negative -2 or a negative -4 runs for his defense last season. I see him as a lot closer to a league average player this season and, an quite a bit above average one last year.
That is a lot higher than a replacement level player. Thats why they make $5 million bucks a year, because they aren’t easily replaceable.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree with psiogen
i don’t understand why there’s so much debate about this
Delmon Young is a below average hitter, below average defender (even you agree with this), playing a non-scarce position (left field). The only thing going for him, is that he has the potential to get better at all of these. You don’t need to delve into the advanced metrics to realize why Young is not a very valuable asset.
Furthermore, I think your understanding of baseball markets is flawed. Guys who make $5 million in the free market are not that difficult to replace. In fact, they probably aren’t league average. League average position players tend to make money in the $8-10 million range, without taking into consideration market overvaluations or undervaluations.
by blue bulldog on Nov 3, 2025 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh Jesus
First of all there isn’t “that much” debate. It’s just em and another guy, now you. Secondly, again, how is a guy who hits league average amounts a blow average hitter?
I stand corrected about his salary but, then again it was his second arbitration year. so he hasn’t hit the open market yet. So we are kind of in the middle on that issue.
He has going for him that he is a league acverage bat and, his defense isn’t as bad as people are making it out to be.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
A league average hitter at LF is a below average hitter for LF
by cookiedabookie on Nov 3, 2025 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It is still
not a replacement level player
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
But that wasn't the statement
The statement was “how is a guy who hits league average amounts a blow average hitter?”
by cookiedabookie on Nov 3, 2025 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, fine
Good answer
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Here is the question
Could a team go out and trade/sign a guy that would give them 95% of young’s production with ease? I would argue that there are no fewer then 50 guys in the league that a team could slot in and get as good or better production.
by ADLC on Nov 3, 2025 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
That's reasonable,
especially since many of them would probably provide better defense in lieu of Young’s potential hitting spikes. I really think that if he can put together a stint that’s close to 2010, that that combined with his heroics after the trade to Detroit may result in many years of overpayment a la his brother.
by blackoutyears on Nov 4, 2025 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
F'ing typing!
- It’sjust ME and another dude
- amounts to a BELOW average hitter
. . . not a blow average hitter, lol.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 3, 2025 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Sickels?
Didn’t like the guys site you are posting on have rankings prior to 2007?
Suggestion, maybe run a draft style where they pick their highest rated player, then see which side has a higher WAR.
by bigboy1234 on Nov 1, 2025 5:23 PM EDT reply actions
I like WAR
but it’s defensive calculations (fWAR judges a catcher only on his stolen base rates) can be really bad - esp in small sample sizes. Carrillo has 10ip. And you also have two to choose from, I tend to prefer bWAR to fWAR but others might differ. I think if you want to rate these players, try to take the defensive calculations out of WAR. It would also be interesting to see how these players stack up under other stats like WPA.
But cool post.
by Gunnarthor on Nov 1, 2025 6:28 PM EDT reply actions
+1
On the defensive points and, on it being a good post. Delmon Young has his flaws and, many critics but, he’s contributed more on the field than Matt Albers.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 1, 2025 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You can't take out defensive value
It would players like Brett Gardner less valuable than Adam Dunn, which is absolutely absurd. Defensive runs saved are just as important as runs created on offense.
by dudedudedude on Nov 3, 2025 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Suggestion
That scatterplot is pretty painful. Although you might find no difference in total WAR produced by the two, that tells only part of the story. I’d also be very interested in the skill of each internal ranking.
Try comparing the slope of the lines, maybe grouped by front 20 and back 80 (for example) to see whether one group did a “better” job pegging WAR by prospect ranking. Both lists might get credit for having the 10th best WAR score on their original prospect list, but the group that ranked him 10th should get way more credit than the one that ranked him 95th.
One other point, of course, is using WAR as a definitive response variable.
Also, it’s hard to believe these were the only two with Top 100’s back in the day. John Sickels? Derrick McKamey? Didn’t Project Prospect even start in 2007? Sounds like I need to go down to the basement and dig up some old books…
by siddfynch on Nov 1, 2025 10:02 PM EDT reply actions
Should add
I like what you’ve done here. Didn’t mean to suggest otherwise, just got me thinking about the next step.
by siddfynch on Nov 2, 2025 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the input
I like your ideas of taking it to the next step. I have all of this information, but not many ideas to work with it.
Obviously, WAR isn’t the be-all, end-all, but I needed something to use and that was the best (and easiest to gather) option.
Those were the only lists I could find online from a search in 2011. If anyone can find other top 100 lists online, I would gladly add them to what I have.
@stealofhome
by Chris St. John on Nov 2, 2025 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
I did an analysis like yours, including PP’s top 100 list.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
by Frag on Nov 2, 2025 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
agree with siddfynch above
essentially you want to find a way to give credit for BA v. BP on grading certain prospects higher than others, and those prospects end up being better players
otherwise, i could take the BA Top 100 list, make a separate Top 100 list using the exact same 100 prospects, and simply randomly rank the players, and still have the “same performance” as BA
one very simple way to do this, is to assign 100/100 WAR performance for the #1 prospect, then 99/100 WAR performance for the #2 prospect, so on and so forth, until you get to 1/100 WAR for the #100 prospect.
this method would be imperfect though, because you expect the difference between a #1 and #2 prospect to be worth a lot more than a #99 and #100 prospect. presumably you want some form of a logarithmic function (or something like that, i suck at math)
by blue bulldog on Nov 2, 2025 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
He’s already got the players listed by both 2007 ranks and their subsequent WAR, so a simple comparison of the two lines would be easy and require no more filtering. He might still chop each set up into halves though, in case each evaluator does a better job with higher vs lower picks though.
I’ve seen a bunch of permutations of this, basically trying to gauge effectiveness of ranking. Did one for my fantasy league even, which showed some interesting trends across five years of drafting. Basically, high draft picks reliably supply a lot of WAR, lower picks reliably supply some WAR, and lowest picks unreliably supply some to a lot of WAR (the “high bust/reward” flyers). It wouldn’t surprise me if Top 100 prospect lists showed pretty similar patterns.
by siddfynch on Nov 2, 2025 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't know enough about stats
to figure out how substantial the differences between two best-fit lines would be, which is why i prefer just actually calculating total value differences the way CSJ did here
i guess whenever i think of a study like this, i always think of the following link:
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/7/20/950254/which-is-better-compensation
note: the really cool thing about this is that there seem to be not insignificant flaws with the way BA evaluates pitching prospects for the data set of the study
i think their bin approach makes sense (as well as specifically how they group their bins) that way you have reasonably large sample sizes over 4-5 years.
i also liked how they thought in terms of surplus value, instead of absolute WAR, though for purposes of this study it won’t make too much of a difference, since all the data is since 2007, so none of these guys have hit FA.
by blue bulldog on Nov 2, 2025 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
top 50/50
I don’t have time to go through the lists and add this up to do a comparison myself, but if someone wants to, you can find the link to my Top 50 Pitchers from 2007 and Top 50 Hitters from 2007 lists and a review of how each player did here.
https://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/9/27/2453150/top-50-pitching-prospects-from-2007-in-review
https://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/9/26/2450383/top-50-hitting-prospects-from-2007-in-review
by John Sickels on Nov 1, 2025 10:05 PM EDT reply actions
I did something just like this for the Blue Jays forum, but included Project Prospect’s rankings. I also discounted the WARs of players that either did not play in the show (eg. Adam Miller) or passed away (R.I.P. Nick Adenhart). Nonetheless, I got similar results as you did:
Baseball America:
Top 100:
N = 94
Total WAR = 613.8
Average WAR = 6.530
WAR SD = 6.905
Top 50:
N = 47
Total WAR = 401.8
Average WAR = 8.549
WAR SD = 8.053
Top 25:
N = 24
Total WAR = 249.9
Average WAR = 10.413
WAR SD = 8.284
Baseball Prospectus:
Top 100:
N = 91
Total WAR = 570.6
Average WAR = 6.270
WAR SD = 7.073
Top 50:
N = 45
Total WAR = 375.3
Average WAR = 8.340
WAR SD = 7.895
Top 25:
N = 24
Total WAR = 243.3
Average WAR = 10.138
WAR SD = 8.973
Project Prospect:
Top 100:
N = 91
Total WAR = 617.2
Average WAR = 6.782
WAR SD = 7.084
Top 50:
N = 45
Total WAR = 396.3
Average WAR = 8.813
WAR SD = 8.121
Top 25:
N = 25
Total WAR = 258.2
Average WAR = 10.328
WAR SD = 8.795
Anyway, excellent work!
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
by Frag on Nov 2, 2025 11:05 AM EDT reply actions
Just a minor correction
BP actually did prospect rankings before 2007. That was just a top 50 ranking, though, and it was Jazayerli that made it.
"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr
by Frag on Nov 2, 2025 11:14 AM EDT reply actions
Yep
They used to publish it in the annual.
by blackoutyears on Nov 2, 2025 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Veal
A slight oversight: Veal pitched for the Pirates in 2009 for 16.1 with -0.3 WAR.
by GrandeRojoMachina on Nov 3, 2025 9:47 AM EDT reply actions
95 new comments
and like 90 are between Case and Blackout. Multiple facepalms of disappointment…
Oh, and I’ve got one thing to say to Case (and one thing only): Marilyn Monroe didn’t marry Henry Miller!
by siddfynch on Nov 4, 2025 2:20 AM EDT reply actions
Sorry
…for my part in tarnishing your thread. These things branch out sometimes. At least we drew some attention to the your work maybe? People look tend to stop and look at threads with lots of posts right? Anyways, I wish I could delete some of my posts sometimes but, once they are there, they are there. Henry and Marilyn would have been a very interesting couple though eh? Lol
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
by casejud on Nov 4, 2025 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
But if he did he'd have taken her to Paris!
by siddfynch on Nov 4, 2025 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
haha, yes
and we all have our kryptonite, eh?
by siddfynch on Nov 5, 2025 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions
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