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Prospect Notes: March 8, 2012: Implications of Lucas Giolito Injury


Prospect News, March 8, 2012: Implications of Lucas Giolito Injury

The big news in the world of baseball prospects today: high school phenom Lucas Giolito has a strained elbow ligament. A right-hander at Harvard-Westlake High School in Studio City, California, Giolito won't need surgery but will be out of action for at least two months while rehabbing the ligament. The injury is considered very minor, as elbow injuries go. If everything goes perfectly, there is some chance he could return to the mound the last week of May or the first week of June, right before the draft.

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This certainly complicates the draft. Giolito was being mentioned as a possible number one overall pick, and before the injury he would most certainly have gone in the top three. He's a 6-6, 230 pound right-hander with a 94-98 MPH fastball (hitting 100 according to some reports) and a wicked curveball. He's also reasonably polished for a high school pitcher and draws praise for his makeup. He has a commitment to UCLA and comes from a wealthy family, but was considered signable for early-first-round slot money.

What happens now? Even if Giolito comes back before the draft and appears healthy, would one of the teams at the top of the first round still pull the trigger, or does the injury increase the risk premium too much? If he doesn't come back in time, or if there are lingering health concerns, how far will he fall?

Under the old draft rules, someone would probably have taken him later in the first round or in the supplemental round, then give him an over-slot bonus once his health status was clear. With severe penalties for teams that go overslot, this isn't likely to happen under the new CBA. However, if Giolito isn't happy with his payday, he could very easily move on to UCLA and try again in the 2015 draft.

In any event, with Giolito's injury and some early erratic performance from Stanford RHP Mark Appel, things are now wide open at the top of the first round.

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I posted this over at Fangraphs

So I figured I would share it here as well:

I think this could be an excellent test case for a team considering going over the spending limit, even up to the 10% threshhold. Let’s just say he’s still available at pick 14, for the Reds. Giolito will have much more potential than anyone else available at that spot, so under normal circumstances it would be a no brainer. The Reds also figure to have a much better season this year in the weakened NL Central, so they could pick anywhere from 20-30 next year.

With that in mind. Wouldn’t Giolito possibly be worth a 14th and 25th round pick? Also, losing a first round pick means you’re not spending first round money next year, so the amount you go over-slot this year you’d theorectially be recouping next year. This has all the markers of a potential wash against the new draft rules.

by ajake57 on Mar 8, 2026 2:21 PM EST reply actions  

In that scenario

I think you’d be more likely to see the Reds settle for cheaper options (college seniors and/or RP) in other rounds to open up more money for Giolito.

by nixa37 on Mar 8, 2026 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Correct

I doubt it’s going to affect his asking price much, so they’d still have to find a way to save money elsewhere to get in at 110% of their draft cap.

by ajake57 on Mar 8, 2026 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

There are cutoffs at 105%, 110% and 115%

I was referring to them not paying 100% tax or losing multiple picks, which begins to occur at 110%.

by ajake57 on Mar 9, 2026 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

More info:

Baseball America has an interesting article showing the financial implications for any team that would take Giolito here: http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2012/03/how-lucas-giolitos-injury-could-affect-draft/

Using my Red’s example (and let me reiterate this is all hypothetical), The Reds could spend a little over $7.3 million and not reach the 100% tax bracket or loss of multiple picks. Going up to that level the total cost of that draft would be right about $7.8 million. If they were to down to the 25th overall pick, their total allotment next year would be right about $4 million, minus the first rounder, which I would estimate is in the $1.2 Million range (I don’t have the exact numbers and I don’t have the time to research it at this point).

So, overall, signing Giolito at that position would cost them a late first round prospect, but save them $700k (Cost of next year’s pick - Penalty tax). If they draft him and can’t sign him, then they pick up an extra pick next year.

by ajake57 on Mar 8, 2026 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I strongly disagree with the BA post suggesting that Gioltio is still going to get at lesat $4M no matter where he’s drafted. I agree that if he comes back, receives a clean bill of health and pitches well in the few weeks leading up to the June draft then he’ll still likely be drafted in the top 6 and get around $4M to sign. However, if either of those 2 things don’t happen, and he ends up dropping out of the top 6 picks then he’s not getting anything close to $4M to sign. No team is going to give up their 1st round pick in 2013 and in 2014 and pay the 100% fine to sign Giolito for that much overslot. IMO, if Giolito does fall down the board, then he’s going to have to accept a bonus in $1.7M to $2.2M range or he’s going to have to opt for college. I also don’t think that any team is going to use a pick on him outside of the top 10 if they don’t get clear indications from his camp that he is willing to sign for the reduced bonus figure.

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by Fla-Giant on Mar 9, 2026 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Other alternative

Is for a team to draft him, give him $4M or so, and then essentially “forfeit” lower picks by drafting signability college seniors to sign way underslot to clear room.

by MjwW on Mar 10, 2026 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

This is almost certainly a partial UCL tear

Saying a ligament is sprained is just an easier way of saying it was loosened and/or partially torn. In the literal sense, a fully torn UCL is “just” a a Grade III sprain. It sounds like the exact same situation that someone like Arodys Vizcaino went through a few years ago. Certainly raises a long-term health red flag and might signal an eventual move to the bullpen, but he’d certainly be worth the gamble later on in the first round.

by nixa37 on Mar 8, 2026 2:22 PM EST reply actions  

why would it signal a move to the bullpen?

worst case is he just has the ligament repaired. Unless he has an extended injury history like Kelvin Herrera, I don’t see the correlation between his current injury and a necessary move to the pen. Its not his shoulder that is injured, its his elbow.

by Bronzillo on Mar 11, 2026 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

It MIGHT signal an EVENTUAL move to the bullpen

Basically, In my book, the chances he develops into a long term SP just took a significant hit. It’s not that he might need the ligament repaired, but that he might need it repaired at a young age. I just think in general, guys who injure their elbow early have mechanics that are more stressful on their arm which in turn make’s an additional (and generally career ending) TJS or future shoulder surgery more likely.

by nixa37 on Mar 11, 2026 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's a few of my other videos

prob the best, with some behind the catcher action in the bullpen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeqhrGzMjjM&list=UUOhCpO7pj-UYll_jihBOQNg&index=76&feature=plcp
from the PG showcase in San Diego:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Hg_6UBSd0&list=UUOhCpO7pj-UYll_jihBOQNg&index=119&feature=plcp

We also set up a video index over at Bullpen Banter that has video sorted alphabetically by player, can be found here:
http://www.bullpenbanter.com/video-index
it’s still a work in progress, but the guys have been updating it frequently, just did a Kieran Lovegrove this past weekend, and I’m hoping to get to one of Vahn Bozoian’s practices next week for more footage (went to his game yesterday)

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 8, 2026 4:40 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Gausman, Zunino, Buxton, Appel, Marrero

Anyone else I’m missing? Who knows what’ll happen, now.

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by OremLK on Mar 8, 2026 5:56 PM EST reply actions  

Possibly Correa

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by shankbone on Mar 9, 2026 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably the Astros.....

….started to like him - thus the injury.

by jkaflagg on Mar 8, 2026 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

Ha

That made me laugh

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by journeymen on Mar 9, 2026 8:07 AM EST up reply actions  

1st overall

Is Gausmann’s as far as I’m concerned.

by hrv2010 on Mar 8, 2026 7:02 PM EST reply actions  

SSS

….for me, as far as looking at film of Giolitio, but is his command not ver ygood? I know I’m talking about a 17 year old, but he was having a lot of trouble throwing any of his pitches for strikes. On the contrary, someone here said that he recently had a streak of 30+ (?) innings without a walk. Anybody with some thoughts?

by Mike Kaluk on Mar 8, 2026 9:10 PM EST reply actions  

Pick

Another option would be to still take him in the top 3, monitor his health, and if he doesn’t look good, just take the tradeable #4 overall pick next year.

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by rwperu34 on Mar 8, 2026 10:21 PM EST reply actions  

you lose another year of developing a premium talent though, if you're not 100% sure about his health I'm not sure I would

take him then when other players are on the board. Pitcher attrition rate as well makes the decision a little bit easier to fold on a top 3 pick when considering Giolito.

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by CodyG on Mar 9, 2026 2:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Giolito

I live about 1 hr away from Harvard-Westlake and play high school baseball. I personally haven’t faced Giolito but I have friends that have. His stuff is something that they have never seen they said. I honestly believe without this injury the Astros would probably take him with the first pick in the draft (barring something crazy happening). I believe he is too good of a talent to pass up. If his tendon was completly torn wouldnt he need Tommy John? What is the success rate coming back from that…like 90%? Overall he is still a solid young prospect. I still strongly feel that he could go top 3 in the draft…possibly even #1…espically if he gets back on the mound in late may or early june, and pitches well.

by ZeFreed on Mar 9, 2026 3:05 AM EST reply actions  

If his tendon was completly torn wouldnt he need Tommy John?

It’s his ligament, not his tendon. Tommy John surgery takes a tendon from elsewhere in a person’s body and grafts it onto the elbow joint to take over the role that the ligament once performed - that’s why a player can come back even stronger after TJ surgery. Tendons are stronger than ligaments.

My son, Adalberto Mejia. He's got the goods - he just needs a cool nickname.

"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner

by Fla-Giant on Mar 9, 2026 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Player can come back stronger after TJS

Because a torn UCL usually is the result of long term wear and tear, where the pitcher already wasn’t at 100% prior to the surgery. Thus people end up comparing a guy with a partially torn UCL to a guy with a new one and think the new UCL is making him stronger when its really just getting him back to where he was originally.

by nixa37 on Mar 9, 2026 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, but the main reaon the joint is stronger is that a tendon is stronger than a ligament. It’s like the differnce between a slingshot made with a thin and stringy rubber band vs. one made with a wide and fat one. As long as the graft takes and there’s no complications with the rehab then the patient ends up with a stronger joint.

My son, Adalberto Mejia. He's got the goods - he just needs a cool nickname.

"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner

by Fla-Giant on Mar 9, 2026 12:53 PM EST up reply actions  

They don't come back stronger in the sense that they throw harder or anything

The new tendon might be able to take more punishment prior to tearing, so in that sense it might be stronger. Problem is if you tear it again following a first TJS, chances are you’re never going to be an MLB pitcher again.

by nixa37 on Mar 9, 2026 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Often players do throw harder than before the surgery

That is a fact that has occurred way too many times to count.

The donor tendon that substituted is usually thicker/stronger than the original.

Thus the common joke about TJ surgery that it is the first time anything has actually been improved from the original design of the human body.

by Bronzillo on Mar 11, 2026 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

They throw harder because of the worsening injury leading up to total ligament failure

Tendons/ligaments don’t generate velocity. The fact that the tendon is thicker/stronger only leads a second failure is less likely. It doesn’t help you throw harder.

by nixa37 on Mar 11, 2026 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry

I’m slow to this guys. I haven’t had time to be on a computer the last 2 days.

I see this as a long term issue with Giolito. I know that some pitchers have elbow issues, rehab and it bounces back. With a young kid who is growing and taxing his arm with 100 MPH gas, I have a feeling that any team that is looking at drafting him should anticipate losing him for a year to TJ at some point. Honestly, most young pitchers seem to have to endure this at some point.

I wouldn’t be scared off at all. The talent is still there and I wouldn’t change his draft stock here at all.

by Matt Garrioch on Mar 9, 2026 9:17 AM EST reply actions  

Also

I think it also might put to rest the fact that maybe mechanics don’t matter at all with some pitchers. Aren’t his mechanics supposed to be pretty “clean” by the standards today?

by NastyNate82 on Mar 9, 2026 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Tough to tell without slowing down the video, but I don't think they're close to "clean"

First, his timing seems to be off a bit. He’s still in the process of scap loading as his front foot hits the ground. He also uses scap loading to a pretty large degree, which I don’t like in general. He also pretty much hits an inverted W, though he does keep his pitching elbow low enough that I don’t think it is a worry in itself (I just think its a part of the timing issue). For some reason I’m having trouble taking screenshots right now, but hopefully I’ll have some up later to show what I mean, at least on the scap loading part.

by nixa37 on Mar 9, 2026 10:58 PM EST up reply actions  

good pics

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 10, 2026 12:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Gotta give credit to you guys on the pics

Those are just cropped screencaps from the Bullpen Banter video linked in the post.

I actually like his mechanics for the most part. I just don’t love his timing and I don’t like how far behind his back he’s bring the ball. I think slightly modifying his arm circle would be beneficial, but as far as modifications to mechanics go that’s about as minor as it gets.

by nixa37 on Mar 10, 2026 1:11 AM EST up reply actions  

i know

it was a screen cap, just figured I’d put up some other pics.

I’m toying around with some gif’s now. . . don’t have the time to post over here that I used too though

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 10, 2026 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

here's a gif of Vahn Bozoian

from the other day. . just starting to toy around with this

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 10, 2026 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I had

it at more frames per second, but file was too big to link on photobucket

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 10, 2026 12:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously not the same as a gif

But you can always slow it down and then put it up on youtube in order to get the extra frames in there.

by nixa37 on Mar 10, 2026 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

this is true

I like the gif’s b/c you can insert in articles and it repeats. . .may be able to do the same on youtube though

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 10, 2026 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

You could always loop it a few times before putting it up

But yeah, obviously not as easy as gifs. Might be worth it to add in one youtube clip in an article with multiple gifs just to show the extra frames.

by nixa37 on Mar 10, 2026 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually blowing up one of those pics captures the timing problem I'm talking about


His forearm should at least be close to vertical once his front foot hits the ground (as it has in this picture), but his forearm is still below horizontal here.

by nixa37 on Mar 10, 2026 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

just because I can

a pic from almost the exact same screen capture. :) thats how i roll!

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 10, 2026 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Good stuff

What sort of camera are you using BTW?

by nixa37 on Mar 10, 2026 12:33 PM EST up reply actions  

It's old

a konica minolta 7D DSLR. . . it struggles in poor lighting and at night games. I got it b/c I had an old film camera that was KM and I have a pretty good 200-400 lens that could be used on this DSLR. I want a Canon, but my lens isn’t compatible, but I’m kind of phasing out still pics as I get more and more into video

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 10, 2026 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah video is definitely where things are moving

Especially when you can get a Kodak PlaySport that can shoot 60 FPS @ 720p for less than $100.

by nixa37 on Mar 10, 2026 12:46 PM EST up reply actions  

you can guess where I was today for a bit. . . here's a hint :)

had my daughter with me, so couldn’t stay the whole game, but got a ton of video, Marrero is rendering right now, will be live tonight

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by SoCalSoxFan on Mar 11, 2026 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Looking at all the opinions...

…I’ve got to agree with Matt G on this one. This kid is way too talented to miss because of “whatever” type of strain this is. Even if he needed TJ surgery, he is still only 17 and would have spent a few years in the minors anyway. You’ve got to take the risk because the reward could be extremely high in a few years or so (likely 2015/16). The more he falls, the more someone is going to steal him.

by rblythepittsteel on Mar 9, 2026 10:10 AM EST reply actions  

The risk for a team in the top 10 is "Can a team miss that high in draft?"

Teams like KC who would normally like at Giolito could be a college pitcher like Gausman, Zimmer, or Appel or an upside HS like Buxton or Correa. Don’t think Zunino will make it out of top 4. Don’t know if a team in that position can risk totally missing on top 10 pick. Teams with multiple picks who are lower in draft are perfect options. If I were the Reds or Cards, I’d do whatever needed to (minus giving up picks in future) to secure Giolito.

by daveyork on Mar 9, 2026 2:40 PM EST reply actions  

Adam Wainright

managed to pitch with a strained or sprained or whatever UCL for the better part of a decade before it finally bifurcated completely.

I wouldn’t think that this is something major, and personally I still think he deserves to be an at least top 15 selection this June regardless. Just realize that the ligament is bound to be replaced eventually.

And with the ubiquity of pitchers that have had to have the ligament replaced in both the amateur and professional ranks, its probably nothing to be that worried about.

Unless of course the ligament decides to pop in the middle of a pennant race on a contending team in seven or eight seasons.

by CoolCat23 on Mar 9, 2026 5:21 PM EST reply actions  


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