What’s the basis for that designation? And power is still a question for Castro. Heyward should provide significantly more offense over a decade. I don’t think this is a particularly convincing argument.

I don’t know if you realize, but this makes you look bad, not me.

He’s been worth almost 2 extra wins in 14 extra games.

that Castro’s range was “questioned consistently”..his range isn’t the problem, it’s consistency with concentration in his throws, glove, etc. That’s fixable. He’s up there among the most agile players I’ve ever seen.

That said, I think Heyward is also a plus defender, maybe a 1.5 win difference between the two of them w/ positional adjustment, and his bat will more than make up for it. Heyward’s ceiling with the bat is obviously higher.

One reason I can think of to vote for Castro: I think he probably ages better than Heyward, who got nicked up in a lot of different ways this season (groin, thumb, etc) and had hamstring problems last season, while playing a position less stressful on the body. Granted a lot of this is luck of the draw, but (knock on wood) Castro appears to be one of those resilient types who takes care of himself stretching/lifting-wise.

All that said, I’d probably still vote Heyward

but my point continues to ring true. As for what you had to say…

“Lou Pineilla says a lot of things. Want me to find the things Bobby Cox has said about Heyward…? What is this supposed to prove…?”

First of all, it proves that Lou Pineilla, a coach we can all say has quite a big of knowledge about the game (and whose fist hand opinion of Castro’s defense I take into consideration much more than your opinion of his defense), believes that Castro will be a great defender. Second of all, if you want you can find things Bobby Cox said about Heyward but it won’t have any relevance to how good a shortstop Castro will be.

“Sure, but how does this apply to Starlin Castro? He’s not a plus plus defender. Nor did he ever project as a real plus defender. His range was questioned consistently coming up.”

This statement is just flat out false and you had no basis. Baseball America had this to say: “Castro excels defensively as well, with range to both sides, body control and arm strength to make any play. Managers rated him the best defensive shortstop in the Florida State League. The Cubs also like his instincts, charisma, and work ethic. Castro just needs to time to fill out and polish his game. He made 39 errors last season, which isn’t a high number for a young shortstop, but shows that he needs to play more under control.” Also, Goldstein had this to say: “His defensive fundamentals are outstanding for both his level and his age, with smooth actions, soft hands, a quick transfer, and a plus arm.” And for good measure, here’s what Andrew Cashner had to say: “He’s got phenomenal defense, and he’s been hitting really well here in Arizona. He’s made some really good plays behind me this year, and it’s just fun to watch Castro play defense. On a lot of hard plays, you don’t realize how hard they are because of how easy he makes them look.” I think he will be a plus plus defender so this does apply to Castro. His range has not really been questioned, neither has his arm strength. It is his lack of focus play-to-play which has been his main problem. This is something to not take for granted but at the same time, he’s only 20 years old. This is the equivalent of a college sophomore. There is plenty more development and hopefully he will reach his defensive potential.

“Ok, but whatever credit you’re giving Castro for this you have to give the exact same to Heyward.”

And last but not least, I do not need to give as much credit to Castro as I do to Heyward if I believe Castro deserves it more. There is something to be said for latin american prospects needing more time to get adjusted to life in the U.S. and the big leagues. There are the barriers of language, culture, etc. that I believe get taken for granted. Yes Heyward obviously needs an adjustment period, but in the end, it is not as significant to his development than it is for Castro. Not only does Heyward play in his home country, he plays in his home state. There is an obvious comfort level that makes focusing solely on baseball much easier. And as any athlete (or worker) knows, being able to focus on your craft is essential for doing your job to the best of your abilities

In this case however, there have been 14 COF seasons of over 5 WAR the since 2006, the exact same number as there have been from the SS position. The fact that there are more 5 WAR seasons from COF this season is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Its pretty much completely random. 5 WAR is 5 WAR, whatever position its coming from. The stat is already adjusting for the position someone plays.

I was simply pointing out that there are a lot more 5 WAR seasons from SS than RF over the past 4 seasons to show him the flaw of his reasoning.

Also, your guesses on particular guys are a bit off. Still more different SS to do it than RF

Hanley - 3
Reyes -3
Jeter - 2
Tulo - 2
Rollins - 2
Guillen
Tejada

I don’t think it’s a great comp. But: Griffey Jr. never stole more than 24 bases in a season.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/griffke02.shtml

In addition Upton’s strikeouts and power outage this year really scare me. I also think his speed is a bit overrated. His defense on the other hand is insanely good. I mean I love Heyward’s defense, but I’ll concede Upton is on another level entirely.

Based on their numbers from this year, we’d expect Heyward to be about 30 runs better offensively over the course of a full season. That’s a huge difference, and Heyward hasn’t even been healthy much of the year. Sure, Castro could be a 20 HR guy, but Heyward could just as easily be a 40 HR guy, and he’s going to do it with over twice as many walks.

That’s a pretty ridiculous argument. Heyward is having a historic season for a 20 year old. Anyone saying they like someone else a lot more than him is insane. If the season ended today, the only higher players 20 or younger in the game’s history with a higher OBP would be Mel Ott, Ted Williams, Al Kaline, Jimmie Foxx, and Alex Rodriguez. A-Rod is the only other 20 year old in the past 5 decades that’s even within 20 points.

Of course, Castro is going to be better than Scutaro. That wasn’t the point I was trying to make. Castro is already a better hitter than Scutaro, just as Heyward is already a better hitter than Braun. That was just an example of the relative difference between the two offensively.