Prospect Retro Redux: Roy Halladay
Prospect Retro: Roy Halladay
As you probably know, Phillies ace Roy Halladay threw a perfect game last night, the 20th in major league history, knocking out the Marlins 1-0. This is the second perfect game in 2010, Dallas Braden blanking the Rays earlier this month.The only other season in major league history with two perfect contests was 1880, when Monte Ward of Providence and Lee Richmond of Worcester both pulled it off.
To honor Halladay's achievement, let's take a look at his development as a prospect and pitcher. His path to success was not a linear one.
I wrote a Prospect Retro for Halladay back in November of 2005. Here is the text of that, followed by a look at his last five seasons.
Roy Halladay was drafted in the first round by the Blue Jays in 1995, out of high school in Arvada, Colorado. The 17th overall pick, he was assigned to the Gulf Coast League and pitched well, going 3-5 in ten games but posting a solid 3.40 ERA and a 48/16 K/BB in 50 innings. I didn't give letter grades to new draft picks back then, but nowadays I'd probably have given him a Grade B at that point. Halladay's fastball was just average at that point, but he had an excellent breaking ball, and scouts felt his velocity would pick up after he matured physically.
Moved aggressively to the Florida State League in 1996, Halladay went 15-7, 2.73 in 27 starts. He posted a 109/46 K/BB ratio in 165 innings. His command was very impressive, but his K/IP was below average. As scouts expected, his velocity increased, up to 95 MPH at times. Oddly, this didn't improve his strikeout rate. Still, it was a solid overall season, and I gave him a Grade B+ in the 1997 book, rating him as the number 31 prospect in the game.
Halladay split 1997 between Double-A Knoxville and Triple-A Syracuse, going 9-13 with a combined 4.77 ERA. His K/BB was unimpressive at 94/64 in 162 innings. His numbers were all mediocre or worse, and it looked to me like he was being mishandled very badly by the Jays. I reduced him to Grade B in the 1998 book, still a solid rating, but was concerned that he was heading for trouble because of the way they were pushing him too quickly. "I'm not sure the Blue Jays will give him enough time to ripen. . .he is a candidate for Matt Drews Disease," I wrote, referencing the failed Yankees prospect who fell apart after being rushed to Triple-A too quickly.
The Blue Jays gave Halladay 21 starts in for Triple-A Syracuse in 1998. He improved considerably, going 9-5, 3.79, although his K/BB remained poor at 71/53 in 116 innings. His scouting reports were positive: 95 MPH fastball, the knuckle-curve, an improving slider. He received a September cup-of-coffee and threw a one-hitter in his second major league start. I moved him back up to Grade B+, but noted that his component ratios remained problematic and warned that immediate major league success was not a sure bet. At this point, there was still a disconnect between Halladay's scouting reports and his statistics.
The Jays used Halladay as a swingman in 1999, giving him 18 major league starts but also 18 relief appearances. He pitched well overall, going 8-7, 3.92, but his K/BB was not good at all, 82/79 in 149 innings. This was a warning sign for 2000, and indeed, he completely collapsed, posting a horrid 10.64 ERA in 68 innings for the Blue Jays, and pitching quite poorly even after being demoted to the minors (5.50, 38/21 K/BB in 74 innings for Syracuse). At this point, he looked very much like a young pitcher ruined by being promoted too quickly.
Realizing that Halladay was at a critical juncture, the Blue Jays completely rebuilt his mechanics early in 2001. By the end of the season, he was pitching well at the major league level, with a 3.16 ERA in 16 starts and a 96/25 K/BB in 105 innings. This was the best K/BB ratio of his career to that point, reflecting much better command. Scouts also said that Halladay was much more confident on the mound. During his previous struggles, he appeared overly tentative and lacked confidence in his stuff. By the end of '01, he looked like a completely different pitcher, sabermetrically and traditionally.
You know the rest of the story: brilliant pitching in 2002 and 2003, injury problems in '04 and '05, though effective when healthy.
Halladay's track record as a prospect was a mixed bag, noted by good scouting reports but shaky component ratios. I wasn't surprised at all that he collapsed in 2000. But I was surprised how quickly he rebuilt his career in 2001.
The question now is, how durable can Halladay be? The shoulder problem in '04 is more worrisome than the flukey broken leg in '05, but any time shoulder stuff crops up, I worry.
Similar Pitchers to Roy Halladay through 2005
Pat Hentgen
Jack McDowell
Kevin Appier
Alex Fernandez
Steve Busby
Pat Malone
As you can see, my main concern was that Halladay would have further injury problems, as the pitchers on his old post-2005 comparable list did.
That concern turned out to be misplaced: Halladay has averaged 32 starts and 233 innings per season since 2005, with a 105-36 record. His ERA+ marks: 143, 121, 152, 156, and 211 this year so far. He's averaged 172 strikeouts per season, including over 200 in both '08 and '09, and on pace for that again this year. He's a genuine superstar, and the health worries that dogged him in '04 and '05 seem a thing of the past.
How does Halladay rank historically now? His overall career record of 155-79, .662, with a 135 ERA+ in 2133 innings is obviously very strong. He is definitely entering the Hall of Fame conversation. His Bill James "Black Ink" statistic rating is now 41; an average Hall of Famer is 40. His Hall of Fame Monitor rating is 88; a rating of 100 means you are a likely Hall of Famer. His Hall of Fame Standards rating is 36; an average HoFer rates at 50. If his career ended today, he would be on the margins with just his current numbers. But if he continues to pitch well for another four or five years, he'll definitely be in the Hall categor.
Comparable Pitchers through age 32:
Sim Scores: Tim Hudson, Mike Mussina, Bret Saberhagen, Dizzy Dean, Don Newcombe, John Candelaria, Andy Pettitte, Jim Bunning, Jimmy Key, and Dennis Leonard.
PECOTA Comps: Kevin Brown, Mike Mussina, Greg Maddux, Steve Rogers, Jimmy Key, Mark Langston, Bruce Hurst, Steve Carlton, Mike Boddicker, and Tom Glavine. Tom Seaver is 11th.
All of these pitchers were terrific in their primes. Dean, Bunning, Seaver, and Carlton are Hall of Famers. Glavine and Maddux will get in the Hall. Brown has a borderline case. Do you realize that Mike Mussina won 270 games and was a much better pitcher than many guys who are in the Hall? He has a strong case if people actually pay attention to what he did. Saberhagen had Hall of Fame talent but burned out too quickly to build up the necessary counting stats. Every pitcher on this list had moments of dominance, even Mike Boddicker and Bruce Hurst.
In short, of 20 pitchers identified as similar to Roy Halladay, there are six definite Hall of Famers (Dean, Bunning, Seaver, Carlton, Glavine, Maddux), one guy who will have a good case but might not get in right away (Mussina), two other marginal Hall guys (Brown and Pettitte), and 11 other pitchers who were all excellent at times but didn't have quite enough durability or consistency to get in.
If Halladay remains in good health over the next five years, more and more of his comparable players will be in the elite category, with the weaker comps dropping off. Despite his early career loss of confidence and uneven development path, he's developed into one of the best pitchers of his generation.
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5 years after retirement...
Hey Roy, your bust is showing
by TimLaser and MattyC on May 30, 2025 1:15 PM EDT reply actions
I'm not sure Halladay is a first-ballot guy, if only because of how damn hard it is to get in on the first ballot
www.zekeishungry.com
by thejd44 on May 30, 2025 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he is a First Ballot guy
the perfect game should put him over the top
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"It's a great day to be a mountaineer, where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on May 30, 2025 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think the ballot should matter
Either you’re in or you’re not
"The A's have to be setting some record this year for simultaneously maximizing team quality and player anonymity. I guess that’s sort of their thing though." - Luke in MN
by hero66 on May 30, 2025 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Strasburg can only dream of having a Roy Halladay career
Most people think he could be one of the best of all time, but the same people were saying that about Mark Prior, Ben McDonald, and Paul Wilson.
by Bravesin07 on May 30, 2025 1:17 PM EDT reply actions
no, they weren't
they’re the same people who are saying Felix will be dominant and Greg Maddux was a top-3 pitcher of his generation.
i trust only a handful of scouts. and all of those say that Strasburg is as can’t miss as can’t miss. At this juncture, with the analytic tools we have (not in the days of Prior or McDonald (who had a nice career) or Paul Wilson) it’s safe to say that Stras will have a very productive career. Halladay-esque? Perhaps. Perhaps worse. Perhaps he’s Cy Young-reborn.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 30, 2025 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
it's a good thing that you managed to survey "most people" about Strasburg
And that you also had the foresight to ask the exact same people about Prior in 2002, McDonald in 1990, and Wilson in 1994.
by mrkupe on May 30, 2025 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
mrkupe, that was pretty good (but not your best)
Not to pile on but I was wondering what analytic tools forecast Priors injuries…anyways.
This is still winner:
“Hmm, Did you just use a childhood nickname given by his parents as evidence to back up your argument?
For those of you who have been paying attention, a question:
If Travis Snider (as seen in his father’s eyes) were to bat against Phil Hughes (as perceived by his parents), what is the outcome of the AB?"
by Chris06422 on May 30, 2025 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
my incredulousness knows no bounds
Personally, the best part of that thread for me is indiansfan’s epic fail in comparing the injury histories of Adam Miller and Phil Hughes.
Nicest guy in the community, couldn’t stop himself from any projection of Indians prospects that didn’t contribute to multiple World Series wins and 110 win seasons.
by mrkupe on May 31, 2025 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Prior would of been dominant
if not for injuries.
Hello.
by killa3312 on May 30, 2025 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
not would of
would have
Ceterum censeo, Ron Washington esse delendam
by t ball on May 30, 2025 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
true
but do you think a part of his “dominance”, when he was, was a direct relationship to his overuse and, therefore, his injuries are a product of that dominance?
in other words, his arm fell off thanks to someone running him in to the ground.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on May 31, 2025 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
can't predict hall of fame
You can have all the talent in the world, it takes a lot more to put it all together over a long career. I don’t know who was drafted in 1995, but there were 16 teams who didn’t consider Roy would do anything like he’s doing right now
by daman316 on May 30, 2025 1:49 PM EDT reply actions
High school pitchers are unpredictable
Sometimes you get a Halladay, other times you get an Ariel Prieto (who was drafted 5th in the ’95 draft.) Still, some of the players drafted ahead of him have been good as well: Todd Helton is a borderline Hall of Famer, Matt Morris had a few good years, Darin Erstad and Geoff Jenkins have had nice careers.
It’s interesting to compare and contrast Halladay with Kerry Wood, drafted 13 spots ahead of him in ‘95… early on it looked as if Halladay would be the bust and Wood would be the Hall of Famer, but injuries ruined Wood’s career.
The Coors Effect
by Tom (RFTN) on May 30, 2025 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
'04 was a bit over emphasized
I would say that the shoulder issues in ’04 were a bit over emphasized. Halladay was worked pretty hard in ’03 with lots of times coming back on short rest (36 starts, more than anyone has thrown in a season since). He apparently has since adjusted his offseason workouts to better prepare him for the big load of innings he pitches.
Halladay has also been one of the most efficient pitchers in baseball over the past 5 or so years, which means he’s throwing a lot fewer pitches per inning and thus a lot fewer high stress pitches.
by Ophidian on May 30, 2025 10:10 PM EDT reply actions
innings totals
wow, he went from 50 innings his first pro season to 165 the next. Would any team do that now? I think the Verducci effect is a bit overstated and needs much more study, but wow.
Ceterum censeo, Ron Washington esse delendam
by t ball on May 30, 2025 11:47 PM EDT reply actions
no
how dare you think that teams should let pitchers pitch, and work out of jams
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"It's a great day to be a mountaineer, where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on May 31, 2025 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
still an 115 inning jump is huge...
by lakersdodgersyankees4life on May 31, 2025 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, there is working out of jams
and then there is more than tripling your innings total.
Ceterum censeo, Ron Washington esse delendam
by t ball on May 31, 2025 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
he's a pitcher
the only way to allow him to develop is to pitch, is 115 innings a large jump yes but he should be prepared to handle it as a pitcher
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"It's a great day to be a mountaineer, where ever you may be" Tony Caridi
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on May 31, 2025 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
He was in high school before being drafted in 1995
I am sure he pitched a good 60+ innings at least for his senior season before being drafted. Also, I think most people would argue individual workload in a start plays a greater role than actual workload. 20 starts every 5 days, lasting 5 innings, 25+ pitchers per inning sounds a great deal tougher on an arm than 35 starts once a week that last 6 innings and 100 pitches.
by tdot mariner fan on May 31, 2025 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
He seens to be similar to Koufax
if his career were to end today. However, as we still see, he is still dominate. Koufax’s career was shortened by injury but dominated the league for 5 years. Halladay has done that, dominate for 5 straight years. Koufax is a HOF, Halladay will be one also. One thing… Koufax had 4 no-no’s and 1 perfect game, Halladay has one no-no, the perfect game. I dont think that should not make him a HOF, but I dont think he gets in 1st time, even if a strong argument could be made..
by lakersdodgersyankees4life on May 31, 2025 3:07 AM EDT reply actions
Post Season
Is the only thing still missing from Halladay’s HOF resume.
by ofsticksandbats on May 31, 2025 5:58 AM EDT reply actions
Unfortunately, I think
whoever votes the players into the HOF, do fault players.
by hrv1978 on May 31, 2025 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s still time to boost that resume.
Liberty Ballers / Ridiculous Upside / @TAFKAMikeBourn
by Michael Levin on Jun 4, 2025 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
As a Jays fan,
he’s been a real treat to watch pitch over the years. A real competitor, a real Pro…Thx for this retro John
by almantle on Jun 1, 2025 7:58 PM EDT reply actions

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