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OT - Shuerholtz Revenge

In 1997 Shuerholtz traded Jermaine Dye for Tucker and Keith Lockhart. It was a trade that would haunt him for many years. How many world series would they have won with his bat in their lineup?

 

John was fuming for years about this and wanted revenge. He considered many different ways to get back at the Royals. Trade them a star pitcher whose arm was about to fall off? That sounded good to him but it wouldn't be painful enough for the already downtrodden Royals. So he thought long and hard and decided to use a similar approach to his most famous trades. That of moving a highly regarded pitcher about to combust.The ole "Trojan Horse" trick.

 

For this plan he needed a very special person. A person whose pedigree, rise up the system, and perceived value was only matched by his monumental ineptitude.

And in November of 2005 he implemented his long-range plan. He looked deep within his own system and promoted one Dayton Moore.

 

And now for some excellent reading:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/scott-podsednik-dayton-moore-and-the-contest

http://www.amazinavenue.com/2010/1/24/1266665/contest-an-upcoming-film-starring

0 recs  |  Comment 24 comments  |  Add comment

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what's your point?

if you want to discuss this, go over to Royals review where they’ll accept you with open arms.

baseball rules.

by doublestix on Jan 30, 2026 10:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

well, i do apologize for making that kind of personal

but, i’m getting a little sick of the dead horse being constantly beaten. not to mention the horses three new born calves. i hardly post at RR anymore because of this, there tends to be more actual baseball discussion here instead of crap spewed over and over again there. i like to be able to read actual baseball stuff once in a while without having to scroll through all the “ZOMG DAYTON SUXORZ” posts. only over there can we turn a thread about Zack winning the Cy into that. which is why i posted my top 25 list here and not there.

so yeah, sorry if i got upset. it’s just annoying to me.

baseball rules.

by doublestix on Jan 30, 2026 11:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hey no problem

And I think as you can see most of posts are all baseball discussion. Mostly about pitching, and I have many topics posted.

At least you can be happy with the best pitcher in baseball. And Meche should have a nice rebound year, Hochevar should improve, etc.

FWIW - I think there is an awful lot of meddling and decisions by the owner. When a club is rebuilding and not expected to contend and the payroll is as high as the Royals means the owner is probably calling the shots. This is Baltimore 3-5 years ago.

by pedrophile on Jan 31, 2026 12:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i enjoy your posts.

i like the fresh thoughts rather than the group think.

hey, i’ve been a Royals fan since i was born and can remember 1 winning season (‘03). and it was barely over .500 at that. so i can live. i think. just hoping this season isn’t a disaster. :)

baseball rules.

by doublestix on Jan 31, 2026 12:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

WAIT WHAT????

“At least you can be happy with the best pitcher in baseball.”

When did Lincecum get traded to the Royals?

Adam Dunn: Proof that even sabermetrics doesn't have it right.

by Boxkutter on Jan 31, 2026 4:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait a minute.

You think Glass is meddling? This is the first I’ve heard. It’s been common knowledge that Glass took the reigns off and let Dayton open the checkbook. Are you saying you don’t think he gets to make all the decisions?

Coffee. The NEW Performance Enhancing drug for Sport's Writers. Just ask Ken Rosenthal.

by 306008 on Jan 31, 2026 10:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea

but it seems like that. If he is truly rebuilding why the Guillen move, why Podsednik, why Farnsworth, etc.

It would make a lot more sense if there was meddling going on.

BTW - this is more common then people realize.

by pedrophile on Jan 31, 2026 2:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

almost as bad as his matusz write up

that one was only worse because the scouting report he linked was 2 years old. do more please!

by bravitos5122 on Jan 30, 2026 10:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

lol

I linked a video. My writeup was solely based on watching him pitch in 2009.

You know, you could write something up yourself. Or you could just ignore my posts.

by pedrophile on Jan 30, 2026 11:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

wtf bravitos?

pedrophile’s scouting report posts have been the best fanposts on the site for about a month.

Adoptive parent of Kyle Nicholson

by gore51 on Jan 31, 2026 3:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Your point is....

This has what to do with prospects and young guys? Give an OT heads up next time.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Jan 31, 2026 12:07 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

done

by pedrophile on Jan 31, 2026 12:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks pedo

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Jan 31, 2026 12:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My bad

I meant to type “Thanks pedro”

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

by King Billy Royal on Jan 31, 2026 12:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hahahaha

by pedrophile on Jan 31, 2026 12:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

baseball rules.

by doublestix on Jan 31, 2026 12:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The rumors or Dayton Moore's horribleness have been greatly exaggerated.

His MLB deals have been nonsense, for the most part, but they’ve also been pretty irrelevant to the long range plans. When he was hired, his stated plan was to build through the farm, and he’s done a decent job of turning that part of the organization around. I actually like their farm system a lot.

I certainly wouldn’t put him very high in the GM rankings, but people tend to focus in on his flaws and completely ignore the good that he’s done. He’s been a very poor MLB evaluator thus far, but that’s also been an ancillary part of his organizational plan. He certainly isn’t the abomination the masses tend to treat him as.

by aCone419 on Jan 31, 2026 11:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

You can't...

give a GM a pass for his major league moves. Last offseason I calculated that he spent about 25 million dollars to acquire players that added up to about 1 win above replacement - combined. That’s more than 5X worse than the market at large. Moore may be trying to build through the farm, but he’ll never graduate a pitcher as good as Greinke. His inability to field a quality team around probably the second best pitcher alive is a damn shame.

Moore has a narrow window: Greinke is under contract for 3 more years. Butler has 3-4 years of service time left. Alex Gordon (who I predict a bounceback from) has 2 more years as a Royal. David DeJesus is signed through 2011. Those 4 players could easily produce 17 WAR next year alone. There aren’t many teams that can boast a core that solid. This is the best chance the Royals will have to become competitive in a weak division in years, and Moore’s decided to supplement those guys by sticking Jose Guillen at DH, Scott Podsednik at a corner outfield spot, Rick Ankiel in CF, and Yuniesky Betancourt at SS. Pathetic.

“The plan” may be to build through the farm, but if so, it’s a plan that forfeits the years the Royals will get from a very, very good collection of young talent already on the MLB squad. In short: it’s a bad, bad plan. Moore sucks.

by slamcactus on Jan 31, 2026 12:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

where did I give him a pass?

I explicitly said I wouldn’t rank him highly among GMs. But your evaluation is exactly the nonsense I’m talking about, where everyone ignores the one area that he’s explicitly been focusing on, and has made legitimate improvements.

The Royals were never going to be competitive in 2009 absent a miracle. The organization was horrible from top to bottom when Moore took over in mid 2006. If that’s your standard for success, then Moore was doomed to failure from the moment he was hired.

In fact, all those shitty moves you described were a direct result of the nonsense idea that they could have been competitors this year, which led Moore to go out and buy vets who, EVEN IF THEY HAD BEEN GOOD, would not have gotten them to the playoffs, and probably wouldn’t have gotten them even close.

If you think “building through the farm” is a “bad, bad plan” then you are are completely misguided.

by aCone419 on Jan 31, 2026 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not ignoring it.

If he’s focusing on the farm to the detriment of the major league club, he’s an awful GM. A GM’s first job is to make the major league team competitive. Moore has never committed to a whole-sale rebuild, so you have to evaluate him as a GM who’s tried to keep his team competitive by spending significant money on major league talent while building the farm system.

The idea that the Royals are beyond contention is absurd. First of all, if that’s true and Moore should be evaluated as working with a losing team, he should have blown up the core 2 years ago, traded David DeJesus and Gil Meche for whatever prospects he could get in return, and committed to a full-scale rebuild. Second, no team with a 9-WAR pitcher, a 3-WAR left fielder, and a 3-war second baseman is out of contention the day the season starts. Greinke, Callaspo, DeJesus, and Butler +21 replacement level players should have made the Royals capable of winning 62 games. They won 67. If Moore had equalled the market rate for marginal wins with his $70 million budget with that talent on board, the Royals should have been a 75-win team. Any GM should have been able to field a respectable team with Moore’s payroll that had a shot at sniffing .500. Moore scraped together a grand total of 5 marginal wins for $53 million.

Dayton Moore didn’t ignore the big-league team to build through the farm. He spent a lot of money on the major league team, and he spent nearly all of it really, really badly. Moore isn’t carrying out a rebuilding scheme. That, I could get behind. He’s not acquiring guys with the idea of flipping them at the trade deadline, or trading the few decent veterans he’s got for prospects. In fact, he actually (inexplicably) traded one of his live arms in the high minors for another veteran at the deadline, selling low on Dan Cortes! He’s treading water between a full-fledged rebuild and attempting respectability, and has been since he took over. That’s a really bad way to win in a small market.

Dayton Moore sucks.

The fact that his scouting department has collected a handful of decent arms in the minors really doesn’t do much to loosen his grip on the title of worst GM in baseball for me. I’m not even sure he should get credit for building a solid farm system, either. We’ll see about Crow, but Moustakas and Hosmer haven’t exactly been great returns on the #2 and #3 overall picks to-date.

General Managers are tasked with putting the organization in a position to succeed. Moore’s been a colossal failure at the major league level, and so-so in developing his minor-league system.

by slamcactus on Feb 1, 2026 4:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

More importantly...

even if you want to give Moore full credit for building through the farm, you can’t ignore the single biggest flaw in his ability as a GM: he can’t evaluate major league talent.

He thought Mike Jacobs and Yuniesky Betancourt were not only worthy of roster spots (they aren’t), but actually worth trading talent for! The Royals may never miss Leo Nunez or Dan Cortes, but wasting talent to acquire expensive players who are below replacement level talents is just an awful move. Jacobs was a $3 million replacement player when Moore acquired him who got even worse upon the move to KC (which was predictable to anyone who understands defense, positional valuation, and the current disparaty in quality between the AL and NL). Betancourt is even worse: he was probably the worst position player in major league baseball last year.

Moore’s failures in evaluating major league talent mean that even if he graduates the Royals’ entire top-10 to the majors and they reach their reasonable upside projections, there’s absolutely no reason to believe he’s capable of surrounding them with enough quality talent to field a competitive team.

No matter how good their farm system is, I’m convinced the Royals will never, ever be competitive with Moore as their GM. It’s really sad.

by slamcactus on Feb 1, 2026 4:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

JS = dayton moore?

schuerholz was run out of KC after mark davis and ruining a perennial winning ballclub….he was run out of atlanta after completely ruining the braves at the time in order to try to extend “the streak”…both places he did have some success…the thing he did have that moore doesn’t have right now: a pitching coach with his hand in the minor league system….

when captain leo was running the pitching show, the braves churned pitcher after pitcher after pitcher through their system…after leo left, the system started burning up arms the way the royals system seems to be doing….dayton moore was rumored to be JS’s protege, and so far, he’s proving that right…for better and worse

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

by biggentleben on Jan 31, 2026 2:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I hate to break this to you, but JS wasn’t run out of town. He is Frank Wren’s boss.

And lol at calling the Braves of the 90s “some success.”

by aCone419 on Jan 31, 2026 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs


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