Clayton Kershaw
I know he's not a prospect, but he's 21, which is as old as many of the guys we hype everyday. He has allowed 5 runs in his past 9 starts, which is an astronomical stat for anyone, especially a 21 year old who is still developing his control and is not allowed to pitch very late into games. As it is, he has one of the most impressive arsenals of pitches in the majors (his curveball is just dirty). But as much as we talk about Price, Hanson, Anderson, et. al., perhaps we should realize that Kershaw is the most promising pitcher of all of the prospect-esque (I know I'm going to get killed for that phrase, but I'm not really sure how else to classify Kersh and all of these recent call up guys) pitchers in the league. What do you all think? What is his upside? Any comps? Or would you just like to join in on my gigantic man crush on him?
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i agree
Dude is nasty and is not talked about nearly as much as he should be when you think about all the guys in the minor leagues that get hyped to death. He’s in the big leagues and mowing them down. Still walks too many guys but man, when they can’t hit you, it makes things a lot easier
by loop on Jul 30, 2025 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kershaw is...
The next big league ace.
For whatever reason, lefty pitchers tend to take a little longer to develop. Couple that with the fact that tall pitchers also take longer, and what you have is a kid that is basically getting by with his nasty stuff and still learning how to actually pitch. That’s just scary given the results we have seen thus far.
Dare I say 3 years from now he will be universally regarded as one of the top 5 pitchers in the game.
by guru4u on Jul 30, 2025 11:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
he could be that right now
Halladay
Johan
Lincecum
Haren
…..
I’d have no trouble seeing Kershaw as the next one named.
Felix, Greinke, Cain, Vazquez and Verlander might argue. but Kershaw is right there with them
by daveh33 on Jul 30, 2025 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain? Vasquez?
Josh Beckett doesn’t get enough credit. His FIPs the last three years are 3.08, 3.24, and 3.04.
by PissedMick on Jul 30, 2025 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Kershaw will never get there...
until he learns some control. He’s pitched MAYBE as well as Jorge de la Rosa, except he’s been lucky, and in Dodger Stadium.
by PissedMick on Jul 30, 2025 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And when I say MAYBE as well...t
I mean NOT as well. Not really even close to as well.
by PissedMick on Jul 30, 2025 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't buy that
His ERA and WHIP may be higher away from home but thats just because of his walks. Away from Dodger stadium they are hitting .202 against him.
His walks aren’t burning him becuase no one can hit him. He lowers that walk total and we are looking at a real competitor for Lincecum yearly for the Cy Young.
by napes22 on Jul 30, 2025 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously
you’ve never seen Kershaw pitch. You can gain a lot by actually watching a guy instead of just going to a stat page.
by smoooooth on Jul 30, 2025 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not true
actually i have seen him pitch and he is one of the most entertaining pitchers to watch. I am also the biggest Kershaw fan however the stats do say that Kershaw is getting a bit lucky.. however if he is able to maintain the BB/9 rate he has put up post all star break so far, then he could be higher on the list but its hard to be better than most on that list, dont you think? on second thought I think hes better than Gallardo now, but im not sure about the others.
by mjr20 on Jul 30, 2025 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have seen Kershaw pitch
and he has a fantastic arsenal, and shows great poise
by Mets2k9 on Jul 30, 2025 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me guess
You’re the guy who last year traded Kershaw for Andy Laroche in your league? Here’s a cool fact: if we take away those two bad starts at the beginning of the year (6 ER, 9 ER, both aberrations on the season, it would appear), his ERA would be 1.76, which is kinda filthy. And if he gets his control where it should and will be, I think we’d be looking at one of the most dominant pitchers in the league, which, oh wait, he is already. Leave your negativity at the door, and don’t make retarded comps to Jorge de la Rosa
by Mets2k9 on Jul 30, 2025 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ever try to make an argument based on facts?
Like, using statistics? Because what you’re saying is just noise.
by PissedMick on Jul 30, 2025 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
After getting into a brief Billingsley/De La Rosa debate earlier in the year, I’ve come around on Jorge. He’s still a much better pitcher on the road but it does look like he may be having a breakout season.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Jul 30, 2025 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
kershaw vs de la rosa
Kershaw’s FIP 3.29
De La Rosa’s FIP 3.70
Kershaw is 21. De la rosa is 28.
I mean, come on… De la rosa?
by npurcell on Jul 30, 2025 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
pissedmick is way off base with this comp. in 7 years, we’ll compare where Kershaw is to where Jorge is right now. and I’m not bashing Jorge [love him, no homo], but what Kershaw is doing at his age is on another level
by daveh33 on Jul 30, 2025 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not a comp.
It’s saying one guy’s pitched better than another. Read. Think. Wait. Think again. Then reply.
by PissedMick on Jul 31, 2025 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, not a comp
but to say kershaw has pitched “Not really even close to [jorge] …” is just not a good statement to make.
by daveh33 on Jul 31, 2025 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FIP
doesn’t look at all at HR/F. Look at Kershaw’s. Then read up on HR/F and find out what it SHOULD be. Then come back and talk.
by PissedMick on Jul 31, 2025 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buddy, do a bit of math
go ahead and calculate his era without those two starts at the beginning of the year. In statistics, we eliminate the outlier, especially in the case of a young pitcher. Obviously something was up during these two starts, which he has fixed. Once you calculate that, you will see that I am backing up what I’m saying with cold hard statistics. While you, on the other hand, cited luck and stadium location.
by Mets2k9 on Jul 30, 2025 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah man
it’s just luck that he’s allowed 5 ER in his last 56.2 IP. It has nothing to do with talent, just a pitchers park, a low BABIP, and a good defense. He’s convinced me, the hell with Kershaw, Jorge De La Rosa is a flat out stud. He’s got more talent in his pinky finger than Kershaw has in his whole left arm, it’s a shame that no one else realizes how he may be one of the elite pitchers in baseball for years to come
by smoooooth on Jul 30, 2025 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
worst post i've seen here in a while.
honestly.
Kershaw has pitched “MAYBE as well as Jorge de la Rosa”… “and when you say say MAYBE we well… you mean NOT as well.”
?
educate yrself
by daveh33 on Jul 31, 2025 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
xFIP
Clayton Kershaw’s: 4.22
Jorge de la Rosa’s: 3.71
When you account for luck in BABIP and HR/F, and the difference in ballparks, Jorge de la Rosa has easily outpitched Clayton Kershaw. And that was before another gem by de la Rosa today.
Clayton Kershaw is fantastic. He has the talent to be a top 5 pitcher in the game, and he is VERY good for his age. There are maybe a handful of pitchers you’d take above him if you were building your own team. He just hasn’t pitched as well this year as Jorge de la Rosa.
Of course, I can’t expect many of you to get that, or understand that I’m not saying dlR is better. You’re the same idiots I argued with about Gavin Floyd and Mike Pelfrey last year.
by PissedMick on Jul 31, 2025 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
xFIP HR/F luck...
I am still not a believer in xFIP because its on the assumption that all pitcher’s allow the same amount of homeruns per fly ball. Kershaw’s average homerun rate in the minors equals 0.4 9/IP. His homerun rate this year is 0.4 9/IP.
by npurcell on Jul 31, 2025 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So minor league hitters have the same amount of power as major leaguers?
There are pitchers who can run consistently low HR/Fs. They are extreme groundball pitchers. Kershaw is an extreme FLYBALL pitcher. His HR/F is ~4%, which is about half of what you can expect Plato’s ideal of an extreme groundball pitcher to post.
You can say Kershaw is amazing and still admit he’s been extremely lucky, and should have at least another run on his ERA. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
by PissedMick on Jul 31, 2025 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The quality of contact
that Kershaw is giving on on his BIP right now doesn’t lend itself to getting hits, let alone HR. The main factor, from what I’ve see, I’ve watched most his starts, is that guys are swinging, and hitting, pitches that really have no business getting swung at. With his curve, you have to be looking fastball, and when guys see one, they are over anxious to hit it and swing at pitches aggressively. Couple this with the fact that most hitters have only seen him a handful of times, you have the combination that has gotten Kershaw to where he is right now.
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't understand how BABIP works.
Find me another pitcher who has maintained anything NEAR a .259 BABIP, and then we’ll talk.
by PissedMick on Jul 31, 2025 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand
how it works. I also understand the difference between a lazy fly ball and a hard hit one. There is no stat that quantifies that, it’s one area that will gain a lot of improvement when Hit FX gets going. I think it will shed a lot of light on how guys like Kershaw have been “lucky”. I guarantee Kershaw is getting a lot more of one than the other.
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh
and I never said anything about Kershaw maintaining his BABIP, but for what he’s done so far, if you’ve seen it, it really isn’t that lucky. There aren’t that many balls that really shouldn’t be converted to outs with an average defense. That may change as Kershaws performance changes, less swings on fastballs high and away and more on ones in the zone would change that pretty quick but so far his lack of control has played into his favor.
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee you
that if you look at the location of the pitches that Kershaw is getting put into play, his BABIP is no different that league average. What he does is get more of those balls put into play that the average pitcher. That is why BABIP by itself cannot stand alone, it has holes. You have to take into context what pitches where hit and the location of those pitches. If you want to claim that BABIP’s are the same for a pitch in the center of the plate vs. one 3 inches outside, or even on the edge of the plate, go ahead. If you want to claim that BABIP’’s are the same for a softly hit ground or fly ball vs one that was hit well, go ahead. If I was guaranteed an average of300 on BABIP, I could play in the majors even with my weak contact abilities. Unfortunately, things don’t work that way on an actual field, just because I put the ball in play, doesn’t mean I’m guaranteed a hit at a .300 clip
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet barking jesus
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
It would help if, for starters, you failed to confuse “BABIP as skill for pitchers” and “BABIP as skill for hitters,” which are not merely different concepts but diametrically opposed to one another. What the hitter controls, the pitcher has no control over, because he doesn’t get to choose the opposing team’s lineup.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2025 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I may have gotten a little carried away there
with that last part. But my premise stays the same, Kershaw’s lack of control results in a low quality of contact on balls that are put in play against him than a league average pitcher. Kershaw does control where he locates his pitches and the quality of the pitches.
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no evidence to support any of your claims
None. Pitchers with poor control do not have lower BABIP than other pitchers.
The statistical analysis on this point is, in the year 2009, basically unimpeachable. Pitchers’ BABIP takes approximately six full years of playing time before a pitcher’s career mark becomes as good an indicator of his true skill as just assuming everyone is league-average. [Another way of saying that is that for guys with six years’ playing time, you regress their BABIP halfway to the mean.] Even Zito, who I pointed out below as an exception, gets regressed about 40% of the way to the mean, so that we estimate his future BABIP against to be about .285.
Generalizing a bit, the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong that pitchers basically don’t control one of the two prime variables of BABIP— the velocity of the ball off the bat— hardly at all. They do have some limited control over the other (launch angle), which is why some pitchers are good at inducing popups or grounders. But Kershaw’s launch angles are unremarkable— basically league-average.
The reason why Kershaw is a stud prospect is because he has sick strikeout ability. The rest is basically meaningless.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2025 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this basically sums up my view of pitchers control
The main feature of randomness is independence from initial conditions—the outcome of an in-park batted ball cannot be fully predicted from the interaction of the pitcher and batter because neither participates in the play after contact (except in limited roles as fielder and baserunner). However, the randomness in BABIP is not itself random, and can be characterized in terms of hit probabilities: about 0.59 for a well-hit ball, about 0.19 otherwise. We can predict the likelihood that an in-park batted ball will result in a hit based upon the velocity generated at contact.
The BABIP phenomenon, then, is really a two-stage action. The first stage is the process of putting the batted ball in play; the second stage is the outcome that results from luck and defense. The dividing line is the moment of contact. The pitcher has no control over the second stage, the outcome, except as a fielder. But before contact, in the first stage, the pitcher wields substantial control over the batter’s attempt to hit the ball hard. The pitcher establishes his control through various inputs, including pitch type, spin, speed and location; pitch balance and sequence; deception and command; working the count; and the hitter’s history of previous plate appearances facing the pitcher.
In this model of BABIP, most of the luck occurs after contact in a chance process in which batted ball speed determines the probability of an outcome. BABIP is deterministic but random. By using strikeouts and home runs, which are 0% and 99.5% well hit respectively, DIPS admits pitcher control over the extremes of contact. Strikeout and home run rates serve as rough-and-ready proxies for a latent contact hardness variable that manifests as batted ball velocity. Home run is the only official batted ball stat about which we can reliably infer contact hardness.
Outcomes of in-park balls in play appear random because no ordinary records are kept about how well they were hit. David Gassko’s study detected a predictive relationship between strikeouts per game, home runs per game and BABIP. An explanation for these correlations might be that strikeout and home run rates approximately represent a pitcher’s tendency to allow hard hit balls, a tendency that persists as a skill.
If major league pitchers are skillful at controlling whether batters make hard contact, and BABIP becomes less random in a data-rich world that includes batted ball velocities, then it follows that pitchers have more control over batted ball outcomes than previously thought. BABIP is a lucky number only to the extent that hits occur more or less frequently than predicted by the 0.59 and 0.19 hit conversion rates for well-hit and other batted balls. The pitcher controls his rate of well-hit in-park balls in the same manner as he controls strikeouts, walks, and home runs.
Chalking up BABIP as merely the result of chance outcomes does disservice to pitchers’ skill at preventing solid contact, which is the essence of pitching. Tossing a coin is chance, not skill, because you can’t control the result by how you flip the coin. Pitchers demonstrate skill in their control over the hardness of hitter contact, which indirectly but positively affects outcomes on in-park batted balls.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-different-look-at-babip/
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the life of me
I can’t why some people think that just because a ball gets put into play that someone has to get a hit at such and such a clip and if they don’t they are lucky or unlucky. Or if a fly ball gets hit it has to be a HR at such and such a rate. To use that reasoning is an epic fail. It’s just not that black and white and many other variables come into play.
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito
but, you’re basically correct. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that Kershaw’s “true” BABIP is anywhere near .259.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2025 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
pitchers with large curveballs
Hasn’t it been shown that pitchers with large curveballs like Zito, Kershaw, etc historically have had low BABIPs?
by npurcell on Jul 31, 2025 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it has, I've never read any such research
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Jul 31, 2025 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nitpicking
But Dodger Stadium since their changes plays more or less neutral now
by blinkshot on Jul 30, 2025 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
isn’t the notion of dodger stadium a misnomer about being a pitchers park. i thought it only holds true for games being played at night due to air density, during the day it favors hitters. changes over the years to where home plate is located and foul ball areas has made it much more neutral.
by FRANCHISEv2 on Jul 31, 2025 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this was a good point
Kershaw’s control is a serious, serious concern… but that arm is so exciting.
Its true he hasnt pitched as well as his numbers would indicate… but I do think he’s a pretty good bet to be one of the handful of best starters in the league.
by alskor on Jul 31, 2025 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kershaw's control
saying his control is “serious, serious” concern is a bit much don’t you think? He’s 21, it’s an adjustment period he is making in the majors. In AA last year his bb/9ip was 2.8. Maybe if he was 25 and still walking this amount of batters, it could become a serious, serious concern but right now, i have to belief you need to chalk it up to a major league learning curve.
by npurcell on Jul 31, 2025 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its a real issue.
21 MLB starts last year: 4.3 BB/9.
21 MLB starts so far this year: 4.8 BB/9.
In the minors after rookie ball his BB rates were: 4.9, 4.6, 6.2 and 2.8. Given all this, Im not inclined to look at the 62 IP where he only walked 2.8/9 as the norm.
His control is a very serious problem and were he playing in front of a worse defense, and/or in a hitter’s park and/or in the AL we would notice it much more easily.
by alskor on Jul 31, 2025 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
he really cares if he walks a batter, no different than giving up a single. He is having tremendous success right now by getting hitters to swing at and hit pitches that aren’t strikes. He’s shown the ability to throw strikes when needed, but if he isn’t forced to, he’s not going to change his approach.
by smoooooth on Jul 31, 2025 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
randy johnson's age 27 and 28 seasons
BB/9 of 6.8 and 6.2
his age 29 season it would drop down to 3.5 and would stay under 4 for the rest of his mo-f-ing career.
Kershaw is 21 years old… a college senior essentially.
by daveh33 on Jul 31, 2025 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kazmir's age 21 season he walked 4.8 per 9
the next year it dropped to 3.2 and he was an all-star
by daveh33 on Jul 31, 2025 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If people could vote on this again
I don’t think Price would win
https://www.minorleagueball.com/2009/3/10/788391/kershaw-or-price
by smoooooth on Jul 30, 2025 1:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Thank god I went with Kershaw!!!
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Jul 30, 2025 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Price is so overrated
He’s just a cocky bitch with a nice slider and a decent fastball. Poor command, too.
Brett Anderson is the Truth. Brett Anderson is divine presence. Brett Anderson is eternal life. Brett Anderson is within you. Brett Anderson is here. Brett Anderson is Now.
by Frederick0220 on Jul 30, 2025 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Koufax is the obvious upside ultimate comp...
Both Dodgers, both lefties with wicked stuff. Kershaw’s maturation has been much faster than Koufax. Sandy wasn’t to this level until he was 24 or so.
As an “oldtimer”, I saw Koufax pitch at Dodger stadium 10 times or so when I was a kid. Comparisons are difficult - but I will say, Kershaw has a lot of the gritty determination that I remember so well from Koufax. If he stays healthy, he could deliver a few sensational years.
by wonderphenom on Jul 30, 2025 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
there will never be another koufax. comparisons like that are ridiculous.
by FRANCHISEv2 on Jul 31, 2025 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry wonder, i didn’t mean to come off like such a dick. kershaw has upside that is rare to see, i see you are making more of a comparison of grit and determination. koufax had such a rubber arm and dominance that few achieve, only pedro in my life time can compare.
kershaw has awesome pacing between his lower and upper half’s of his body, everything seems to be in sync. i’m a believer, no doubt. comparisons to one of the true wonders on the mound are impossible to make, hopefully kershaw will be someone that people wouldn’t want to judge others against in the future.
by FRANCHISEv2 on Jul 31, 2025 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kershaw
Thank goodness he’s basically taken the majors by storm…it stops Colletti from trading him for a retarded relief pitcher.
yes, I’m bitter about today’s events.
by npurcell on Jul 30, 2025 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Retarded
Sherill can help you win it all this season and you are crying over a guy who might develop into a league average 3B and a possible 5th starter?
by Ion293 on Jul 31, 2025 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Colletti frustration
Knowing that the Dodgers have good relief depth in the minors and that this is a classic Colletti overpayment makes you do that. Casey Blake helped us go to the playoffs last year, but we can still be bitter about giving up Carlos Santana & Jon Meloan, right?
by QuinnTheEzkamo on Jul 31, 2025 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bell
Bell can mash, plain and simple. His splits are a bit extreme; but extreme in the right direction where 70% of pitchers in the majors are right handed.
22 years old, in AA, hitting 335/425/600 vs right handed pitching. This kid is going to hit RHP in the big leagues, and with power.
by npurcell on Jul 31, 2025 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why so much Colletti frustration?
the guy has built one of the best young teams in the Majors?
by Mets2k9 on Jul 31, 2025 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The guy has inherited a lot of great young players.
by alskor on Jul 31, 2025 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Logan White
For all you’ve done, even if we were skeptical while you were drafting. Thank you Ned Colletti for not ruining this team a few years ago.
by QuinnTheEzkamo on Jul 31, 2025 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs






