You're the GM! Detroit Tigers Edition
Tiger Tiger Burning Bright, in the Forest of the Night
You're Dave Drombowski, GM of the Tigers. You were supposed to be in the post-season in 2008. Instead, you found yourself in last place, even behind the Kansas City Royals.
What do you do to turn this team around? Was it just a bad luck fluke? Or are greater changes needed? How is the condition of your farm system? Should Jim Leyland be retained beyond his contract expiration in 2009?
0 recs |
149
comments
Comments
They're the one team for K-Rod
In my opinion, they’re the team for whom shelling out ludicrous bucks for K-Rod makes sense. The Mets and Angels make sense, too, to a degree. But the Tigers have a win-now core and a disastrous bullpen.
by aap212 on Oct 2, 2025 1:48 PM EDT 0 recs
K-Rod
Not gonna happen. No one-inning reliever is worth the kind of money K-Rod is going to command and Dombrowski has pretty much said as much.
by SBcaptain2 on
Oct 2, 2025 6:29 PM EDT
up
0 recs
The Main Issue
The Tigers lost 42 games after the 7th inning. If you give them back half the games that’s 21 more wins. That’s 95 wins. That right there puts you in the playoffs easily. If you look at every team that made the playoffs they didn’t blow anywhere near half. So giving the Tigers back half is possibly conservative.
They need nothing as far as hitting goes, they should spend all their efforts on finding GOOD relief pitching. Getting big names isn’t necessarily the answer. They need to find guys that are dependable as middle relief guys for other teams, and up their importance.
by nborton on
Oct 21, 2025 6:13 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Thoughts
The first thing they need to do is pray they get some luck with their rotation this year:
Verlander - needs to rebound. Stuff is still great.
Bonderman - needs to stay healthy and avoid fluke injuries. Hopefully this can be the breakout year.
Gallaraga - needs to repeat his performance.
Willis - needs to trim his waistline so he can actually throw with his old mechanics. Probably the biggest question mark on this team.
5th starter - Sign two guys like Freddy Garcia, Carl Pavano, or Brad Penny to a one year contracts. Give them the chance to compete with Willis for the 4th and 5th starter jobs.
The Tigers also need to address their bullpen. They have talented arms in Zumaya and Rodney but can they stay healthy and consistent? I wouldn’t sign K Rod as that money can be better spent elsewhere. Perhaps target a 2nd tier closer such as Fuentes or Wood.
Offense is an interesting factor for the Tigers. Their OF is strong with Mags, Granderson and the Thames/Joyce platoon. I wouldn’t change that at all. Guillen will likely end up in the OF and I do not like that move. Perhaps they can move him to DH because Sheffield needs to be moved even if it requires eatting the contract. He is done as an impact player. Inge and Miggy are cemented at 3B and 1B so I don’t see a move happening there. Personally, I would try to add another 3B to compete with Inge for playing time. If I was Detroit I would contact Texas and see if they have interest in moving Blalock. Secondbase is solid with Polanco. At SS I would look to sign Orlando Cabrera to a 3 year contract. He is a solid defensive shortstop with a respectable bat. Also, he has playoff experience playing on 4 playoff teams in the last 5 years.
Leyland would be signed to a long term extension as I personally view him as one of the better managers in baseball.
Since I view our farm system as being in terrible shape, I would continue to draft guys overslot similar to what the Royals did with Melville this year. Other then Porcello we don’t really have much so it is essential to spend our financial resources on developing our system.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Oct 2, 2025 2:19 PM EDT 0 recs
This early in the game...
if you’ve got to pray for Luck then you’re already fucked. Pardon the rhyme.
More important then my French, Inge is back Catching , Guillen is the starting 3B and Bonderman is on the 60 day DL… seems a bit much to ask for a breakout year in 2009. To whom do you dump Sheffield? And are you willing to get into a bidding war over Orlando Cabrera, ’cause if you are a 3 year offer is doubtful to get it done.
Not saying I have all the answers, just some info you seem to have missed.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 3:44 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Corrections
Not to be a jerk but you are wrong on most of your assesments. The Tigers manager Jim Leyland recently announced that Inge is moving to 3B and Guillen is going to LF. Here is the link:
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3225
Also, Bonderman is eligible to come off the DL at any time as he has already spent over 60 days. When a player is put on the DL, they are eligible to come off the stated amount of days after their last game played, not the date they were put on the DL. Bonderman has already stated that he should be at full strength for spring training.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_previousnews.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3645
In regards to Sheffield, I would eat the contract and find a trading partner. If the Tigers are willing to pay the remainder of his contract (13 million), it is likely you could get a midrange prospect for him. If you can’t get that, then release him and accept the loss.
They may not get Cabrera for 3 years, but at his age I can’t see him getting more then 3-4 years. If they have to go the extra year it may not be a bad idea.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 5:02 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Sheffield
I suspect Sheff will get 1 month or so to show what he’s got; if it’s nothing he will be dumped. Many in the organization believe his shoulder was not healthy, but that with rest during the off season it might be. So they won’t trade him while his value is low, and there’s no reason to dump him now.
by The Fume on
Oct 2, 2025 5:16 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Leyland might as well wish for world peace and a balanced budget while he's at it
The Tigers don’t have any other Catchers besides Inge. Varitek isn’t leaving Boston and Pudge would cost an arm and a leg, even for the shell of a corpse that remains. You simply can’t have every pitch the batters don’t swing at roll back to the backstop, it’s simply poor etiquette.
Since you, the GM, aren’t going to buy Leyland a shiny new Catcher he will have no choice BUT to play Inge behind the plate. And if he doesn’t like that you can tell him to A) Kick rocks. Or B) Tap into his multi-million dollar salary and buy his own Catcher. Now I followed that link you provided, and I couldn’t help agree with the peanut gallery’s commentary regarding Leyland’s opinion: It’s a stupid plan! Someone should tell Leyland it’s a stupid plan. And if you’re going to pretend to be the GM of the Detroit Tigers you better not try to cut your suit based on someone’s stupid plan.
I realize Bonderman can come off the 60-day DL. What part of “Sick pitcher, might want to wish for simpler things like health before breakout year” do you have a problem with? How stupid would it be to place the burden of a championship season on the arm of a guy who just missed half a season due to blood clots?! If you are saying the only way the Tigers can make the post-season in 2009 is if, among other things, Bonderman has a break-out season then buddy… you’ve got a troubled team.
As for Cabrera, all I want to know is if you’re willing to get into a bidding war over Cabrera? Do you have a Plan B? I just want to know how committed you are to signing Cabrera.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 6:23 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Plan B?
How much time do you expect us to put into this? We now need contigency plans?
On another note, why don’t you detail your plan on how to fix the Tigers? I am anxious to hear your thoughts.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 6:47 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I'm just asking if Cabrera is the lynchpin to Tiger success!
Anyone shopping for a SS is going to be looking at Cabrera, he’s the top guy on the market. Would you commit to a 4th or even 5th year to land him? You might not have the cash to just out-bid on annual salaries.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 6:54 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Also
You stated "More important then my French, Inge is back Catching , Guillen is the starting 3B and Bonderman is on the 60 day DL… seems a bit much to ask for a breakout year in 2009. "
I just pointed out that you are wrong on Inge being back catching and Guillen being the starting 3B. Also, I believe Bonderman is very capable of coming back at full strength similar to what happened to Kenny Rogers when he had a similar injury.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 6:50 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Inge finished the year as the starting Catcher
Admittedly, he also played 3B. (And Guillen wasn’t playing, period.)
Dusty Ryan might be back-up material, Sardinah is a stretch to do that.
The way the Tigers’ roster is set up Inge is the only viable starting Catcher. Guillen is the most obvious choice to play 3B. I don’t care what Leyland thinks he wants to do in 2009, when faced with the same set of options in 2008 he had Inge play C and Guillen 3B.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 7:04 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Inge a viable catcher?
Every Tiger fan will scoff at that. Defensively Ryan is just as good if not better, and can match Inge’s .200 avg and power. Inge at 3rd is one of the best in the game defensively, and the hope is he can hit at least .250.
A lot hinges on the hope that guys won’t be as bad as they were in ‘08. If they’re just as bad it really doesn’t matter what the GM does, they’re done.
by The Fume on
Oct 2, 2025 7:47 PM EDT
up
0 recs
After 14 games...
every Tiger fan is willing to say that Ryan is as good or better then Inge.
Huh.
I never realized Detroit produced so many optimists!
So if the Tigers could go out and sign K-Rod and Sabathia the fanbase would be perfectly ready to make Ryan the starting Catcher for a World Series run. Personally, I’m having trouble with that statement.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 11:59 AM EDT
up
0 recs
how could anyone be worse than inge?
and since when is saying ryan can match a .200 avg optimistic?
inge’s only value is defensively at 3rd base. i’m not a big ryan fan but inge had a .634 OPS as a starting catcher this year, and pitchers seem to like ryan better behind the plate. you do the math.
by The Fume on
Oct 3, 2025 3:56 PM EDT
up
0 recs
re
“Inge finished the year as the starting Catcher”
You are wrong. Dusty Ryan finished the season as the starting catcher with Inge at third base. Dombrowski and Leyland have publicly stated that Inge will be the third baseman next year with Guillen in left field.
Sardinha is a minor league free agent btw.
by SBcaptain2 on
Oct 2, 2025 7:49 PM EDT
up
0 recs
How can he be a minor league FA if he's on the 40-man?
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Oct 3, 2025 1:53 AM EDT
up
0 recs
A bidding war for Orlando Cabrera?
That’s laughable.
The last player the Tiger’s need is Orlando Cabrera.
by tyd3311 on
Oct 3, 2025 8:29 AM EDT
up
0 recs
rotation
Is there ANY way they can win the central with that rotation? I expect Verlander to rebound at least a bit (FIP was roughly 4.2). But after that…who the hell knows what to expect from Bondo and Willis? Gallaraga, can’t see that BABIP of .239 (!!!!!!!!) holding up, decent pitcher but more like a #4 and not a #2.
This team reminds me of the 2000 Royals. Pretty good offense, but pretty much nothing on the pitching side of things. They’re either going to need to open up the wallets and spend some dough to get some pitching (because I don’t see many trade chips without really hurting the offense), or luck into some things next year to not have a repeat of this year.
Rowdy Hardy Fan Club member.
by doublestix on
Oct 3, 2025 2:03 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Me?
I’d blow up the team and start over. There are a bunch of veterans with movable contracts— Guillen, Ordonez, Bonderman, Polanco, etc. Unload those contracts, restock the farm system, and then wait a few years. Use waiver claims and Rule 5 to rebuild the bullpen while focusing the trade acquisitions on guys with the potential to hit at a very high level.
And if all else fails, deal Granderson. He’ll bring back an enormous haul of talent— probably more than any of the trades last offseason, and that’s saying a lot. You could get most of a farm system for him.
Bottom line, the current “core” is a failure. You can keep upping the risk level higher and higher by trying to somehow sign enough pitchers to fill out your rotation on the free agent market, or you can admit defeat and try again. But remember, it’s better to rebuild a year too early than a year too late.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on Oct 2, 2025 3:12 PM EDT 0 recs
We've discussed Detroit a lot over on AN
And I generally agree with you. The A’s seem a perfect trade partner for the Tigers. I could see a pretty big (in terms of names, number of players, and major league talent) deal between the two teams in the offseason.
by thejd44 on
Oct 2, 2025 3:31 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Bonderman's hurt, probably shouldn't get dealt until midseason to boost value
And saying Guillen’s got a moveable contract seems a bit of a stretch.
What I want to know is how you can pump up[ Granderson over here while trying to convince AN a deal wouldn’t hurt the A’s farm system.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 3:48 PM EDT
up
0 recs
When on earth did I say that?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 2, 2025 6:11 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I saw the package you proposed a week ago
It was a tad bit on the ridiculous side.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 6:24 PM EDT
up
0 recs
What was the package?
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 6:47 PM EDT
up
0 recs
In a word... slop.
But that’s just my opinion. PT can give a very passioned arguement to the contrary.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 7:05 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Paul Thomas
What was the package you had in mind for Grandy?
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 7:08 PM EDT
up
0 recs
It can't actually be done right now because recent draftees aren't tradable
but it was something like
Anderson or Cahill
Simmons
Demel
Petit
Christian or Coleman
Corey Brown
Buck
You’re insane if you think that “wouldn’t hurt the A’s farm system.” It’s not clear that it’s even a good idea for the A’s to offer something like this; it was sort of an offhand “wonder how much this would take” thought.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 1:52 AM EDT
up
0 recs
That's a lousy package PT
You’re basically trading Cahill, Simmons and Buck (who may or may not be held in high regard, if not swap for Cunningham) for Ganderson, the rest are essentially roster-fill. That’s a ridiculously one-sided deal for the A’s.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 10:41 AM EDT
up
0 recs
WTF?
Was Chris Carter “roster fill” last year? Corey Brown just hit 30 fucking home runs this season.
James Simmons, first round pick, good numbers in AA at age 21— “roster fill”?
Sam Demel, reliever who struck out 90 hitters in 66 innings this year— “roster fill”?
I’m sorry, that’s a completely stupid statement.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 12:05 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Take a breath and settle down before you go stupid
First, Chris Carter has nothing to do with your plan so lets not confuse people as to whether or not he’s part of the deal. He’s not.
Second, I specifically seperated Simmons from those I called roster fill.
Corey Brown did hit 30 HRs, every one of them at some level of A-ball. He also struck out 168 times in 134 games and 486 at bats. He drew 58 walks. He turns 23 in November and can play an average CF. Corey Brown has some serious tools, as well as some serious holes in his game. Now I grant you that the Tigers might not sweat too much over the contact issues too much but not being able to consistently hit the ball will slow his development and it’s probably two years minimum before he’s ready for the Show.
Of course, he could always have a break-out year.
Sam Demel struck out 90 in 67 IP (just correcting your typo, that’s all) for High-A Stickton. He turns 23 in October and is most definetly a relief pitcher.
It might seem harsh to call these guys roster fill, then again you are highlighting them for a trade to acquire Curtis Granderson, merely one of the best CF’s in all of baseball and reasonably priced through the 2013 season. So in that regard, yeah… roster fill.
How is it that Granderson is worth less than what Dan Haren cost the D’Backs?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 12:56 PM EDT
up
0 recs
He isn't
That’s a better package than the Haren deal. The reason why I’m mentioning Chris Carter is that by the standards you’re using here, he was roster fill (as were Cunningham, Eveland and Smith). You could just as well criticize the Haren group as “the A’s basically traded Haren for Anderson and Gonzalez and some roster fill.” Which would be bizarre.
The reason why I’m going muppet-shit over the “roster fill” statement is that it’s just inaccurate. You want to call Brown, Demel, Christian “lottery tickets,” that’s fine. It’s basically accurate. High risk, high upside. “Roster fill”? Not accurate.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 1:55 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Let's compare, shall we?
I think we can all agree that Granderson is at least as good as Haren, and as he’s under contract for 5 more years (vs. the 3 years that remained on Haren’s deal at the time of the trade) the return for Granderson should be noticable better then the one the A’s got for Haren.
All scouting done by BA, and I’m listing prospects by what I think is descending order in a head-to-head match-up.
2007 2008
C. Gonzalez (AAA/AA) B. Anderson (AA/A+)
B. Anderson (A+/A-) J. Simmons (AA)
C. Carter (A-) T. Buck/A. Cunningham (ML/AAA)
A. Cunningham (AA/A+) S. Demel (A+)
D. Eveland (ML/AAA) G. Petit (ML/AAA)
G. Smith C. Brown (A+/A-)
Christian/Coleman
Cargon was maybe the key player in the Haren deal, he had posted good but not great numbers in AA. CF capable and just 22, he needed a bit more polishing but offered great tools.
Vs.
Brett Anderson, a 20 year old LHSP who posted good numbers in A+ and even better numbers in AA, plus pitched for Team USA in the Olympics. His fastball sat at 92-93 all year and he’s generally considered one of the top pitching prospects in the game today. On this match-up, I’d say 08 Anderson has an edge over 07 Gonzalez.
07 Anderson featured a 90 MPH fastball and a ton of polish, especially for a high school arm. At 19 he had already dominated the Low-A Mid-West League and held his own in the California League.
Vs.
James Simmons, a 2007 1st round pick who’s already logged 165.6 IP at AA Midland. He features an 88-89 MPH fastball and excellent command. He posted good but not great numbers and was only 21 through the 2008 season. A good prospect to be sure, but 07 Anderson had better stuff, the same control and was two years younger. Advantage: the 2007 deal.
Carter vs. Buck/Cunningham (whichever the reader prefers more). This is probably the toughest match-up, because while Carter is one of the top RH power prospects in baseball the other two have tore up the minors and have tasted the major leagues. Both Buck and Cunningham have shown enough that they could be in Oakland’s 2009 Opening Day roster and that kind of certainty has it’s place. So for now, let’s just call this one a Push.
07 Cunningham did nothing but hit in A+ and AA. He showed power, speed and a solid eye at the plate.
Vs.
Sam Demel has been discussed, and as he did all that he did in High-A while working strictly out of the bullpen I think we have to give the edge to the every day player who performed at a higher level. Advantage: 07 deal.
Dana Eveland had superb minor league numbers but horrid major league results. He had the stuff of a #3 SP, if he could ever get his fat ass in shape to realize it.
Vs.
Gregorio Petit, long touted by BA as the best defensive infielder in the A’s system his batting line reads as a utility hitter, lacking power and patience. Advantage: 07 deal.
Greg Smith, having survived the AA Acid Test, profiled as a back-of-the-rotation SP at best. He needed more time in AA but was expected to be ready by mid-2008 at the latest.
Vs.
Corey Brown… a ton of tools and 30 HR power in A-ball. Strike outs are a definite issue but he’s got some speed and is willing to take a walk. This is another Dependability vs Ceiling arguement, although more extreme then the Carter vs. Whomever match-up. It’s a matter of personal taste IMO, so I’m going to call another Push.
So by my score, I see one match-up that clearly favors the prosposed bargain while there are three match-ups that strongly suggest the 2007 deal offered the superior talent. I don;t care if you throw in Christian or Coleman PT, niether one is good enough to make up the difference. You proposed package is inferior to the one the A’s got for Dan Haren.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 6:44 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Anyone else is welcome to weigh in on this
but I have to say that I find the concept of Corey Brown being a “push” with Greg Smith laughable. Greg Smith really IS “roster filler”.
Petit and Coleman/Christian are basically a package (2 shortstops for one position) and need to be considered together. On a pure talent level, probably still a little inferior to Eveland but they have to get some credit for filling an organizational void in Detroit.
I really think Demel is better than you’re giving him credit for. Guys with that kind of strikeout stuff are pretty rare and he could easily be in MLB by the middle of next year, though he won’t be if he stays in the Oakland system. I’d take ’07 Cunningham over him but not by very much.
The Haren deal from last year consisted of 3 B+, a B-, a C+ and a non-prospect who I assume was in the neighborhood of another C+ according to John. Unless he wants to weigh in suddenly on the thread we’ll have to wait to see what this group gets, but I’d rate them as, in the order of the original list, A-, B+, B-, C+, C+, B- and “B” (Buck isn’t prospect eligible) or B+ if you upgrade Buck to Cunningham.
Let’s compare those valuations. I view an A- as being worth 2 B+ because of talent scarcity, and the next three guys cancel out as they have the same valuations. That leaves an extra B- and an extra B-B+ for the Granderson deal.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 4, 2025 3:14 AM EDT
up
0 recs
I should know better by now
Even if you admit that my comparisons are correct you’d rather fight on then accept that you were wrong and should reshuffle your proposal. Are you so lacking in modesty that you can’t just ask “OK, what do we do to improve the deal?”
I’ve never been enamored with Greg Smith and he is just roster fill, but he’s big league roster fill to the tune of 190.3 IP with an ERA+ of 97. That’s not bad for a rookie pitcher, in fact I’d say that’s pretty solid production for a minimum wage 5th SP. Corey Brown has a much higher ceiling but he’s only in A-ball and has a high flame out probability.
So, big league SP vs. A-ball OFer with a very good but not great ceiling and a high flame out probability… which is more valuable? There are arguements for both sides, so for now I’m calling a Draw.
Just sweeten the offer, PT.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 4, 2025 9:28 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Fine, throw in Greg Smith then :p
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 4, 2025 9:46 PM EDT
up
0 recs
OMG... an actual punchline!
What’s next, a Life?
;-)
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 4, 2025 11:39 PM EDT
up
0 recs
2 very good pitching prospects,
a potentially good OF and a few risky prospects isn’t a bad package to get any player. I’m not saying the Tigers should make the deal, whether or not they’d be willing to give up Granderson, but this isn’t exactly slop
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 3, 2025 4:56 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Actually, not really
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 6:45 PM EDT
up
0 recs
What would the Twins have done to get this
for Santana?
Disregarding the Rangers Teixeira deal, and the Haren one which turned out much better for the As than anybody expected, how many other deals in the last few years can you think of where teams gave up that much for any player?
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 4, 2025 8:32 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I think you keep Granderson as a player to build the team around
He’s a quality teammate in addition to be a superstar. His batting eye improved and his triples went down so that really decreased his slugging, but he matched his HR total from 2007 in fewer at-bats. He also improved against lefties.
Sure he would bring in a massive haul, but he’s still young enough that he could be in his prime when you are ready to compete. To have a guy who has been with the club for so long is very valuable. Trade everyone else, but keep Granderson.
by IllinoisCubs on
Oct 2, 2025 5:14 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Miguel Cabrera?
Didn’t he sign a long term deal and lead the AL in HR this season? I really don’t see how you can blow the team up when you have Verlander, Granderson, Bonderman, and Miggy all entering their primes simultaneously. If anything, this calls for one last spending spree. Maybe a 1-2 year “renovation”, and 2 years is pushing it. But, to blow the team up? That’d be foolhardy and it would undo the progress made in reestablishing a fan base. Here’s to opening the coffers for a player like Teixeira (29 years old with a solid 3-4 years of high level production left in his tank at minimum.) Sign a Derek Lowe, a Brian Fuentes, or someone to stabilize the staff who won’t require another massive multiyear commitment. By 2010, Porcello will be up and making news. The Tigers still have a great core, and if they play their cards right, they should be able to back in full force very, very soon.
by GuyinNY on
Oct 2, 2025 6:54 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Apparently you are unaware of how large Detroit's payroll is
What you suggest would blow the team way beyond the luxury tax threshold. Factor that in and you’re looking at $170 million or more if they were to somehow add Lowe and Teixeira— and even if those guys somehow add a preposterous 10 wins to the team’s third order record you’re still looking at a team that is hardly a playoff lock.
It’s attempting the 2004 Yankees strategy with a worse core group. That strategy was basically a failure.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 2:01 AM EDT
up
0 recs
In 2004
the Yankees won 101 games. In 2005, they won 95 games and 2006 they won 97 games. Granted, they didn’t win a championship any of those years, but I don’t know why you’d describe their strategy as “basically a failure.”
I don’t know what you define their core, but their best 4 players were A-Rod, Mariano Rivera, Posada and Jeter. Miguel Cabrera, Curtis Granderson, Justin Verlander and Bonderman seem of largely equal value. (ARod is certainly better than Miguel Cabrera, but Granderson is a better hitter than either Posada or Jeter. Jeter and Posada offer solid defense at important defensive positions, but Verlander and Bonderman pitch much more innings (normally) than Rivera does.)
Moreover, you say that adding a star won’t add 10 more wins to the Tigers. Maybe. But if Verlander reverts to his normal performance, and Bonderman stays healthy for the full year, and it doesn’t take two months for Miguel Cabrera to remember how to hit, that in of itself might add those 10 wins. Below you argue that Bonderman just isn’t a very good pitcher - that strikes me as a difficult argument to make about a guy who at age 23, struck out 202 batters in 214 IP, with only 64 walks and got a 4.08 ERA with a 3.33 FIP. You suggest that his FIP is warped because he is really a .330 BABIP pitcher - perhaps, though I’d like to understand why. Does it concern you, then, that in 2008 (albeit in a half-year), his BABIP against was .300? Whether or not FIP is the best stat for him or not, even using his “Cy Young” stats. he still seems to have an awful lot of potential. If he is their fourth player, he could certainly provide as much value as Jeter or Rivera
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 3, 2025 5:13 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Jeremy Bonderman is now equal in value to Derek Jeter??
We’ve really moved into cloud-cuckoo land, haven’t we. Sorry, I love Granderson but I’d take the 2004 Yankees core every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 4, 2025 3:21 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Yay, doubleheader!!!
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 4, 2025 10:28 AM EDT
up
0 recs
I didn't quite say that
I said that Bonderman could provide as much value. Jeter was then an above average 30 year old shortstop. Is it out of the question that Bonderman could be an above average 26 year old pitcher?
I’m still not sure what you mean by the word core, but from the four people I mentioned, the Yankees had one true superstar and 3 players who were significantly above average. Both Miguel Cabrera and Granderson are stars and even borderline superstars, and Verlander and Bonderman are pretty darn good. Even if you’d rather have the Yankee group, considering the Yankees never lost less than 95 games in the next year 3 years after 2004, is it out of the question that the Tigers could be a consistent 90-win team? That could be a division-winning team in the AL Central
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 4, 2025 8:37 PM EDT
up
0 recs
It's not out of the question that Bonderman could be above average, but it doesn't strike me as very likely
At some point, people have to stop making excuses for him and realize that he has pitched 6 years with an ERA+ of 94. And he has health problems on top of that. He isn’t “pretty darn good.” He has a worse career pitching line than Jason Marquis.
Comparing him to Derek Jeter, who is basically a slam dunk Hall of Famer (and one who has actually had some of his better seasons in the 2004-2008 period) is a laugher.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 4, 2025 9:54 PM EDT
up
0 recs
More than half of the innings you're referring to
took place when he was 22 or younger. Don’t you think that’s just a bit unfair?
Since he turned 23, when we start expecting top prospects to make the majors, he’s had one very good year, one bad one, and one he spent injured. I understand that you think people are too lenient about his faults, and you may have a point, but you seem to be going far too far in the other direction (“Bonderman has proven that he sucks pretty conclusively at this point.”). Your evidence for this appears to be that his BABIP has been consistently high. Perhaps. I guess I think some patience is needed for a 26 year old who has consistently struck out plenty of batters, kept his walk rate down and hasn’t given up too many homers.
I also can’t help but notice how you ignored my original point that the Yankees’ strategy in 2004 wasn’t a failure at all, and that even if you think their core is stronger, that doesn’t deny the fact that the Tigers’ core is also quite strong, and whose oldest member (Granderson) will be only 28 in 2009, and which will have quite a bit to grow with if Verlander and Bonderman are healthy next year. This isn’t to say that the Tigers will be a championship team, but just to dispute your original claim that they’re worthless and should be discarded immediately
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 5, 2025 12:17 AM EDT
up
0 recs
If he was a hitter, I'd be more inclined to throw out his earlier innings
As is, he appears to have already peaked physically. His velocity has declined for 2 years straight.
My evidence for him not being very good isn’t his BABIP; it’s that he has been worse than Jason Marquis over a 6-year career. He’s been worse than average for 5 of his 6 seasons, either because of injury or because of ineffectiveness. It’s actually rare that you can find someone with such a consistent track record of mediocrity. Baseball analysis would be a lot easier if more players had stat lines like Bonderman!
His BABIP is often raised as a defense of him, which is why I brought it up.
Maybe calling the Yankees strategy a “failure” is uncharitable; let’s go with “an ineffective use of resources.” In any event, the Tigers do not have those resources, and an attempt to emulate the Yankees strategy with a lower payroll seems likely to fail to me.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 5, 2025 1:29 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Bonderman is 25
and already his K/9 rate is significantly higher than Marquis’, his BB/9 rate is better and his HR/9 rate is better. He even gives up roughly the same amount of hits. This is with counting his first horrific year at age 20, at which age Marquis was getting knocked around in AA ball, and Bonderman’s most recent year when he was probably already injured. Do you really believe that his ERA will continue to be the same as Marquis’? Are you really going to argue that it isn’t largely luck when a pitcher strikes out more batters, gives up less walks and homers, and roughly the same amount of hits, gives up the same amount of runs?
I also don’t understand why the Yankees’ strategy was an ineffective use of resources. You seem to believe that money spent is money lost. That may be the case for the As, but that is not the situation for every team. For the Yankees, for example, this is probably not the case - Steinbrenner presumably believes that spending more now wins him games which makes him more money, and then spend even more. One study, for example, suggests that ARod makes the Yankees in the area of 48 million dollars a year, which means that, counter-intuitively perhaps, the Yankees aren’t losing money by paying him close to 30 a year, but making money. If you’re worried about money, maybe you should think of it as an investment rather than spending. In the 2006 year when you think the Yankees should have been discarding their team, the YES network alone produced 340.5 million dollars of revenues. Granted before the most recent stock market disaster, there were reports that if the Yankees were to sell the network, they would make between 3 and 3.5 billion dollars. Those numbers would have been significantly lower had the Yankees given up and rebuilt.
So basically, by keeping their superstars, they not only won nearly 100 games a year for 3 years, and got honest-to-God shots at winning a World Series, but made enough money to get even more free agents or pay to keep any stars they develop for the forseeable future? If this is an ineffective use of resources, then I think I’d rather you not be my stockbroker. I’m not saying the same thing would happen necessarily for the Tigers - the Yankees’ situation is obviously unique - but this is yet another reason why choosing to dismantle your team to rebuild is fraught with much more risks than you might imagine. Whether or not Bonderman himself will ever develop (and perhaps the Tigers might consider trading him to a team which agrees with me, but keep the other 3 stars), they have serious talent on the field and to simply demolish and rebuild would be a terrible mistake.
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 5, 2025 2:44 PM EDT
up
0 recs
If winning games makes you money, wouldn't winning more games make more money?
I doubt a particularly large number of people are going to stop going to Yankees games just because they have a rebuilding year or two. So it seems like trying to win the most games over the long haul is the best strategy… and I don’t believe most of their expenditures over the past few years have done that, hence the ineffective use of resources.
On Bonderman: He does seem to have a weirdly low LOB% for his career, which probably accounts for the difference in run prevention between him and Marquis. Again, though, at what point does regression to the mean no longer apply because he’s built up enough of a track record? It would be one thing if LOB% was purely a measure of luck, but it isn’t; good pitchers have higher LOB% than bad ones, even though much of the year-to-year flux is just luck.
A possibility that comes to mind is that Bonderman is either noticeably worse out of the stretch or is somehow tipping his pitches from the stretch. I don’t have any data to back that up, though.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 7, 2025 12:46 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Your logic seems intuitive
and maybe if you have a 30 year perspective, you’re even right. But every time I read something like this, I feel Keynes jumping up and down in my head and shouting, “Fool! In the long run we’re all dead!”
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 7, 2025 5:13 PM EDT
up
0 recs
simple answer
They will focus on relief pitching and defense and hope that the starting pitching and hitting bounces back to normal.
The owner wants to compete next year. My guess is the team will try to shore up the defense to help the pitching, and they have done this already by moving Inge to 3rd and declining the option on Renteria. I would suspect a weak hitting glove man will get a lot of time at SS. The bullpen has to be dealt with; I would expect 2 significant signings below the KRod/Fuentes level. I would expect Garcia to be re-signed to go with Verlander, Bonderman, Galarragga, and Miner. They will absolutely not count on Willis, Robertson, or Zumaya for anything in their off-season plans.
Verlander, Rodney, Zumaya, Sheffield, Inge, Renteria, Robertson, Willis are all guys who performed about as poor as anyone could have thought in 08; improvement by several of these players of their replacements combined with a few bullpen signings and the return of Bonderman should give the Tigers a chance to contend next year in what looks like a crapshoot of a division, as their top 5 hitters (Granderson, Polanco, Ordonez, Cabrera, Guillen) are still very good.
by The Fume on Oct 2, 2025 5:13 PM EDT 0 recs
Verlander/Bonderman/Galarraga/Miner is a dismal front four of a rotation
Just dismal. You’re not going to contend with a rotation with one pitcher who’s above average, I don’t care how good your offense is (and apparently it’s not as good as people thought).
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 2, 2025 6:18 PM EDT
up
0 recs
disagree
Altho admittedly, I’m not even sure which one you’re referring to as above average. Verlander should bounce back, Bonderman was turning the corner when he got hurt in 07, and Galarraga just has to match 07. All of these things aren’t sure things, but improved health and an improved defense should help. I could see any one of them having a 3.50 ERA or having a 5.00 ERA. Hopefully they’re closer to 3.50 than 5.
At any rate, absent of blowing it up or spending another $50 million, you have no choice but to rely on these 3.
by The Fume on
Oct 2, 2025 7:55 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Verlander is the one above average guy (and as you point out, even that's hardly a lock)
Bonderman has proven that he sucks pretty conclusively at this point. Miner and Galarraga have peripherals that strongly suggest they suck.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 2:04 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Bonderman
…had xFIP’s of 4.15, 4.10, 3.68, and 3.99 in the 4 years before 2008 (those are in order from 2004-2007, each based on lots of IP). Dismissing Galarraga’s very good 2008 stats based on weak peripherals, and Bonderman based on - presumably - weak “Cy Young” stats, seems like picking and choosing a most-pessimistic view on each pitcher. Sure, Bonderman’s injury may take its toll, but he’d shown pretty strong peripherals before this season.
by BobbyMac on
Oct 3, 2025 9:02 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Bonderman has underplayed his FIPs for so long that I no longer believe they are accurate
Assume he really does have a true BABIP of .310-.320 and his “Cy stats” look just like they ought to— mediocre.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 12:06 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I've thought about this more then I should have
The Tigers have no choice, Dombrowski committed the team to a two year window to win a title when he traded the farm prior to last season. No way does ownership commit much more cash to the deal so the team needs to find low cost/cost controlled options and that means making trades.
Offer up Porcello to any team willing to provide quality bullpen help. The kid may have a golden arm but his performance will not help the Tigers win a World Series in 2009.
Renteria needs to be bought out of his 2009 option. Santiago can play SS and then hope that the rest of the offense can cover any loss at the plate. Really, with Cabrera, Ganderson and Ordonez in the line-up they should be able to manage with Santiago in the everday line-up.
Inge catches, Guillen plays 3B and a mix-and-match covers LF.
See what the dredges of the farm system can bring back in a trade for a SP. Might get lucky and find an innings-eater somewhere.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on Oct 2, 2025 6:52 PM EDT 0 recs
Porcello
Trading Porcello for bullpen help is far too much. The Rays and Jays showed that you can find quality relievers for much less. Overspending on the bullpen never works well. I could imagine trading Porcello for relievers turning out very similar to the infamous Kazmir deal.
As far as trading prospects for a SP, the Tigers have nobody of substance after Porcello and you already dealt him for RP help. You would likely have to go out and sign someone along the lines of Garcia, Pavano, Penny, or Pedro instead.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 7:05 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Also
I like the idea of Inge catching, Guillen at 3B, and maintaining the LF platoon. However, do you keep Leyland and force him to make the moves (which would undermine him) or do you hire a new manager?
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 7:07 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Leyland's on a 1 year deal
Tell him you can afford bullpen help but not a new catcher and he’ll have to live with Inge. That makes Guilen the 3B by default.
Give Leyland a shiny new closer (which is why I said you deal Porcello for bullpen help) and he won’t chaffe with Inge at C/Guillen at 3B.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 2, 2025 7:12 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Deal Porcello... for bullpen help?
Are you nuckin futs? Relief pitching is one the easiest areas to fix without investing a ton, be it in dollars or prospects. Dealing a top 5-10 prospect for help in the bullpen would be an atrocity of the first order.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 7:28 AM EDT
up
0 recs
You're right
Look at how easy it was for the Mets to fix their bullpen problems this year.
I’m not keen on dealing Porcello period, but if the Detroit Free Press is right the Tigers won’t have the cash to go out and buy a new closer. I think they can get by with Santiago at SS if Ganderson, Cabrera, Mags and the rest produce as expected. They might have enough Starting Pitching if they get everyone healthy.
The bullpen is the problem. Leyland wants a CLOSER. He needs one guy he can count on in the 9th and that player does not currently reside in Detroits organization. I’m an A’s fan, so I won’t suggest trading Porcello for Street because it looks like a conflict of interest, but the Tigers need to trade for the next Brad Lidge. Now look at Detroit’s farm system and tell me what they have that could land the proven 9th inning guy.
Only one name pops out… Porcello.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 10:28 AM EDT
up
0 recs
You are SOOO wrong
The Mets ineptitude is absolutely not a point in your favor. They could have done some things, but chose not to, same with their OF.
Relivers, as many have stated, is the easiest position to fix. Not only that, it’s not like fixing the bullpen is the only thing holding them back.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 10:43 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Rather than be snarky, lets look at where the Tigers are at
Offense isn’t/wasn’t the problem, so if Santiago can hold up defensively at SS then the line-up isn’t really an issue.
In the rotation, Verlander needs to bounce back. If Bonderman can come back healthy and be an average innings-eater, and if Galarraga doesn’t tank in his sophmore season then that’s enough to build the rotation around. Not a lot of certainty here, but there aren’t a lot of alternatives either.
The bullpen is a disaster. Leyland needs a 9th inning guy, a designated closer, and there is no such pitcher on the roster. Find him, and the rest of the bullpen can be sorted down from there. Yeah, lots of folks say that the bullpen is the easiest think to fix but that depends on what needs fixing. You need a middle relief arm? Yeah, you can do like the Padres and find inexpensive gems. Need a LOOGY? Again, there are usually a few readily available in AAA somewhere.
You need an elite arm? The team needs a closer to pitch the 9th inning? Those guys are not easy to find on the cheap and not every pitcher who can dominate in the 8th inning can get it done in the 9th. Hell, it’s easier to find a SP off the scrap heap then it is to find a closer!
The newsies are saying Ilitch is not going to approve another shopping spree this offseason, if that changes and cash is available then I pull the Porcello idea off the table. What I’d prefer to see happen in a Porcello trade would be to get 2 bullpen arms, 1 being a closer, in return. I’m not sure if that deal would work so the bottom line goal is to deal Porcello for the next Brad Lidge.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 11:22 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Snarky?
How was that even remotely snarky?
Rather than go back and forth, how about you provide some precedence of a club that traded a pitching prospect with that much value, the gem of their system, for a bullpen arm? I’ve already pointed out Project Prospect put them in their top 10 and I’m sure BA will as well, as he was #21 last year. There’s a reason it doesn’t happen. It’s short-sighted and would be a panic move. I think the lack of precedence is all I have to say.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 11:43 AM EDT
up
0 recs
We aren't communicating well
I wasn’t saying you were being snarky (although the excessively long “o” sound on “so” did venture in the snark direction) I was saying we shouldn’t go in that direction.
The precedence arguement means nothing. The situation the Tigers are facing is what is relevant. Feel free to disagree with any of the things I’m about to lay out if you think they are incorrect.
When Dombrowski stripped his farm system last offseason he was essentially setting the Tigers up for a two year window to win a World Series title. Look at the contracts, a lot of key components are only signed through 2009 or 2010.
Looking at the current Detroit roster, the line-up isn’t a problem. They have enough arms in the rotation if they can stay healthy. The bullpen is a mess.
The only real trade chip Dombrowski has left in his farm system is Porcello.
According to the newspapers, the Tigers aren’t going to get another shopping spree from Daddy Ilitch. They may have to seriously cut payroll (which would scrap any plan to go for it in 2009) but I’m thinking Dombrowski can convince his owner to let him keep what the toys he has for 1 more season.
So… if the Tigers have to find a cost-neutral way to contend for a WS title in 2009 they need to address their biggest problem: the lack of an elite closer. If the Tigers have to trade for that guy the only way they can acquire that player without losing a key component from their line-up is to trade Porcello. They do not have anyone else in their system who could acquire such a big league talent.
Those are the facts of the Tigers’ situation, or do you disagree?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 12:14 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Reply
“The precedence arguement means nothing.”
Completely false, that’s tap-dancing. There’s a damn good reason we study history in school. Plenty of good teams on the cusp have been hamstrung by a shitty bullpen in the past. Not one of them traded a top prospect for bullpen help. Not one. At the same time, many were able to piece together a suitable pen and succeed going forward. You don’t need to go on a crazy shopping spree to fix a bullpen. There are plenty of models to rebuild a pen - trading a blue-chip prospect isn’t one of them.
Even if they were to trade Porcello, it doesn’t accomplish this “cost neutral” idea you’ve put out there. A top flight closer that would come remotely close to justifying trading Porcello is going to make way more than Porcello’s 4 year 7.28 million. Not to mention, you’d be eating Porcello’s signing bonus that you already paid him and still not have the bridge you need between the starters and your shiney new closer.
The Tigers fell in a good pile of shit landing Porcello late in the first round. He’ll be ready quickly - possibly sometime middle to late next year, in which he could actually help you in the pen. Before you say no way, look at their track record of promoting pitchers and the fact that he was signed to a MLB contract.
Given the overall contribution to wins from a closer, Porcello’s upside and the notion you yourself have portrayed as all or nothing in 2009, this just doesn’t make any sense.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 12:46 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Let me get this straight
Rather then address any of the facts I laid out to explain why I proposed what I did, you’d prefer to stick to your arguement involving nameless teams and situations. That isn’t tap dancing, that’s complete bullshit.
Don’t get defensive, I’m merely stating fact.
I’ve given a very specific, detailed arguement to support my choice and you didn’t spend a second dealing with it. The Tigers have contracts coming off the books, to the tune of roughly $8 million after various raises are calculated. The Phillies payed Brad Lidge $6.35 million this year to be their closer. That’s partly why I’ve been saying “find the next Brad Lidge”.
Let’s look at the 2008 Phillies. Heading into this season they had a very similiar problem to what the Tigers are facing. The line-up was fine and they had enough arms in the rotation assuming good health but they didn’t have a closer in the pen and that left the entire relief corps up in the air. They traded Bourn, Geary and Costanzo for lost-his-closer’s job-Lidge… who became a key component in the Phillies winning the NL East.
The main difference between where the Phils were a year ago and where the Tigers are now is that Detroit doesn’t even have a 3 player package that could land a former closer with power stuff! That’s how barren their farm system is. Porcello is the only trade chip the Tigers have in their farm system that could land them a cost controlled, elite closer. Porcello could land them the 2008 version of Brad Lidge, a guy that short of getting hit by a bus is going to get the job done.
If you think the Tigers have another prospect, or a group of prospects who could land a closer then go ahead and tell me, I’ll listen. If you think there’s a minor league FA, or a guy scuffling in AAA who could step in and close for a WS contender next year then give me his name.
I’m being realistic here. If the Tigers don’t at least contend in 2009 then Dombrowski gets fired. Look at the Tigers long term, they are ultimately facing a serious rebuild in the near future and Dave has clearly gambled that a shiny WS trophy in the office will be worth that sacrifice. The contracts that the team would like to move in any sort of dump/rebuild aren’t primed to move this offseason.
“He’ll be ready quickly – possibly sometime middle to late next year, in which he could actually help you in the pen. Before you say no way, look at their track record of promoting pitchers and the fact that he was signed to a MLB contract.”
Yeah, the Tigers are a perfect example of rushing prospects along. Just look at what they did with Jeremy Bonderman! I am personally very conservative in predicting how fast a player will advance, and just because a team promotes a guy (say, Detroit and Cameron Maybin in 2007) doesn’t mean he’s really ready for the gig. Matter o’ fact, when talking about the Detroit Tigers it’s safe to say that they’re liable to promote a player even if they KNOW he’s not ready for the Show. Personally, I wouldn’t count on a meaningful contribution from Porcello until 2010.
I realize this trade is all about the short term. The 2009 Tigers are all about the short term.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 1:35 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Have it your way
WTF? You completely glaze right over my request for precedence, but when I cut to the chase, I’m the one doing the tap-dancing? You have a future in Washington. My response went right over much of what you posted, as I don’t agree with all of it being absolute fact, nor am I willing to let you pidgeon-hole me by agreeing to those “facts.”
1. “When Dombrowski stripped his farm system last offseason he was essentially setting the Tigers up for a two year window to win a World Series title. Look at the contracts, a lot of key components are only signed through 2009 or 2010.”
Some truth, some some not. Many, if not most key components for ANY contending team are only signed for the next few years. Sure, he was setting them up for this year as well as the next few… so what? It doesn’t mean he was foresaking EVERTHING beyond that timeframe. Trading Porcello is exactly what that would do.
2. “Looking at the current Detroit roster, the line-up isn’t a problem. They have enough arms in the rotation if they can stay healthy. The bullpen is a mess”
For the line-up - false. Major holes there as well. No catcher and questions in the OF. For the bullpen part - true.
3. “The only real trade chip Dombrowski has left in his farm system is Porcello.”
While this may be true, it doesn’t mean you trade him for a fucking closer, which as I pointed out has NEVER been done.
4. “According to the newspapers, the Tigers aren’t going to get another shopping spree from Daddy Ilitch. They may have to seriously cut payroll (which would scrap any plan to go for it in 2009) but I’m thinking Dombrowski can convince his owner to let him keep what the toys he has for 1 more season.”
Neither true or false, mostly conjecture on your part, other than the fact of what was published in the paper, which you yourself refute as probably false - even going so far as to say they may have to shitcan 2009 at which point trading Porcello for a closer gets even more ridiculous.
5 “So… if the Tigers have to find a cost-neutral way to contend for a WS title in 2009 they need to address their biggest problem: the lack of an elite closer. If the Tigers have to trade for that guy the only way they can acquire that player without losing a key component from their line-up is to trade Porcello. They do not have anyone else in their system who could acquire such a big league talent.”
False. As I pointed out, dealing Porcello is not “cost neutral.”
6. “They traded Bourn, Geary and Costanzo”
All three of which can’t hold Porcello’s jock combined.
Just because Porcello is all you have for trade bait in your minors system, doesn’t mean it’s the answer - especially for someone who has as little impact on team wins as a goddamn closer. As pointed out numerous times, there are other ways to skin a cat
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 2:08 PM EDT
up
0 recs
And here's the end.
Precedent, precedent, precedent. Be a trend setter. I don’t know how unique the Tigers’ situation is compared to all the nameless teams you keep bringing up but I do know that the most critical piece missing in their quest for a 2009 title is someone who can pitch in the 9th inning. Like it or not (and I can understand not liking it) the only player in Detroit’s farm system that can bring them the quality of closer they need is Porcello. You can’t escape that fact.
1. Actually, this is mostly true. Is Porcello going to replace Polanco at 2B after 2009? Sheffield’s gone, so Renteria but they’ve already been replaced as it were. Bonderman, Willis, Robertson, Inge (and I might be missing a name or two) leave after 2010. To what extent that’s simply freeing up cash vs. losing productive players has yet to be fully determined but we’re talking 2 starting position players and at least 1 SP and some bullpen arms. Porcello cannot make up for all that and the Tigers don’t appear to have homegrown solutions that can manage the job. Point is, Dombrowski has mortaged the future of the Detroit tigers beyond 2009 even if he holds on to Porcello. Right or wrong, he did it to win a title.
2. Detroit scored 821 runs in 2008 and they’re going to run out a 2009 offense headlined by Granderson, Ordonez and Cabrera… they’re going to be alright. With Polanco at 2B and (my preferrence) Guillen at 3B, they should receive above-average offense from those two spots. A Joyce/Thames platoon in LF would provide pop if not OBP. Inge and Santiago don’t help the offense but if they can handle the defense then they can still contribute to winning baseball games. A lack of offense isn’t going to kill the Tigers in 2009, the bullpen is going to do them in.
3. Fuck precedent. For the record, let me share some other Top-5 names I pulled from BA: Sean Burroughs, Drew Henson, Joe Borchard, Andy Marte, Rickie Weeks, Dallas McPherson, Alex Gordon, Jeremy Hermida, Brandon Wood, Homer Bailey. The drop-out list turns even more impressive if I drop down and include Top-10 guys. I acknowledge the risk in proposing this deal. I also look at the roster and think that 2009 is the last, best shot to win a title in the near future and barring some bizzare occurance Porcello will not be closing games for the Tigers in April, May, June, July or August of 2009.
4. We know 1 of 3 things will happen to Detroit’s budget. It will grow, it will shrink, it will stay the same. When you play GM for a day, you can’t come out and say the first thing you’re going to do is ask the owner for an extra $30 million. That just doesn’t play. So what I’ve done is propose an overall cost-neutral solution to bring in a necessary component. If the budget shrinks it’s back to the drawing board.
5. Wake up, we’re talking about the Tiger’s overall payroll budget.
6. I didn’t say those three were as talented as Porcello, I said the Tigers don’t have three other farm hands who are as good the three the Phils shipped to Houston. Which is the actual relevant point.
A bad closer can impact a team’s win total by up to as many as 10 games. That’s 10 games the team should have won but ended up losing. I watched it happen in 2004, when the A’s ran Rhodes and Dotel out as closer and ended up losing the AL West by 1 game. A good closer cuts that number down by at least half.
It’s not an ideal solution, but if the Tigers are going to go for it in 2009 then it looks to be the only way.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 4:40 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Predictable
and unsubstantial responses across the board. Nothing wrong with “being a trend setter.” I agree, you have to get creative, but that doesn’ justify the moronic idea of trading a high end prospect for a closer. Trading a blue-chip prospect for a closer who would pitch 60-80 innings is fucking stupid. End of story.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 4:48 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Unless, of course
your big league team needs a closer to pitch 60-80 innings and the only way to acquire him is through a trade.
This is really quite simple. If your position is that the Tigers need to go into a fire-sake mode then, obviously, you keep Porcello. If you think the Tigers should go for it all in 2009 then they need to upgrade their bullpen by adding a closer. Slurve, you haven’t offered up a single, tangible idea to address the bullpen shortcomings of the Detroit Tigers. You don’t like the idea of trading Porcello for bullpen help, got it. I’m not thrilled with it either. But trading Porcello would land the Tigers a quality closer in 2009 and if they’re to have any chance at a WS title they need that new guy. It can’t always be about planning for the future, sometimes you have to focus on the here and now.
That’s just the way it is.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 6:03 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Tangible
Well, you haven’t exactly put much beef into this idea of yours either. What yet to be named team has a top of the line closer they would be willing deal? There are very few closers I’d even consider in an offer for Porcello, especially when you consider that the new closer, no matter who it is isn’t going to make THAT big of a difference over what you could already run out there. Then of course, we’re back at the problem that it’s going to add payroll which you keep conveniently sweeping under the carpet.
Here’s what I would do. Sign a few mid-range relief pitchers this off-season. You’ll have money to do this with Jones 7 mil salary coming off the books. I haven’t seen a list of FA’s to be this off-season, so I can’t get into specifics as to who, but there will no doubt be some worthwhile and you’re not sticking all of that money into one pitcher, which is what you would be doing by bringing in a stud closer, which would leave you with nothing to work with for other RP’s. You will also have Zumaya coming back, who would be one of my leading candidates to close going into ST.
You seem to be working off the assumption that the rotation is going to be better next year, which may or may not happen. I can agree here, that Verlander at the very least should bounce back. That said, there ARE a few serviceable arms existing in the pen. If the rotation does indeed bounce back, the pen won’t be as taxed as they were this year, which was a major factor in making it look as bad as it did. Yeah, it’s not the best bunch of guys, but when starters are being pulled in the 4th and 5th, it will make any pen look worse than it is. A few additions for depth and Zumaya and you have the makings for a much improved bullpen - w/o selling your future. I’d be more inclined to trade Porcello if it was a slam dunk that you’re one player away, but they aren’t. If I was to trade Porcello, it wouldn’t be for a closer. They could get everyday talent for him.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 9:18 PM EDT
up
0 recs
First things first
Bookmark this link, cause Cot’s is a must have if you want to keep track of who’s earning what, who has no-trade protection and it lists who’s eligibile for FA this offseason as well as next offseason.
Now that I’m done with the nice gesture, I’ve got to twist the knife a bit. If Porcello is so damn good shouldn’t he be enough to pry loose just about any closer you wanted no matter how much the other team was shopping their guy?
Anyways, I know the A’s are shopping Street this offseason but that wouldn’t be my first stopping place if I was the Tigers. I wonder the Dodgers would part with one of Saito/Broxton? Are you a Matt Capps (Pirates) fan? Honstly though, first team I call is the Royals… I love Joakim Soria. His numbers are outstanding, he’s signed through 2014 ($1 million in 2009) and I think KC would jump at the chance to add such a highly regarded SP prospect.
As it is a little unusual to trade such a highly regarded prospect for a bullpen arm, I don’t know what kind (if any) filler would be required from either side to complete the deal. If Porcello is worth every bit you say he is then in my mind the Tigers should be getting more then Soria in the exchange. I have no idea if a Royals-centric perspective would feel the same way. So since we lack precedent in this matter, let’s just say a Porcello for Soria trade, with any detail work taken care of on the side.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 4, 2025 10:27 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Soria
was definately one that caught my eye, but I still wouldn’t do it. I don’t think the Royals would either as they are looking to be the 2009 or 2010 version of the Rays, and with the Tigers being in the same division, the chances become even slimmer.
“Now that I’m done with the nice gesture, I’ve got to twist the knife a bit. If Porcello is so damn good shouldn’t he be enough to pry loose just about any closer you wanted no matter how much the other team was shopping their guy?”
That’s not entirely accurate. It depends largely on the teams situation. If it’s a shitty team looking to move him, it’s one thing. If it’s a good team that’s contending and the closer is an integral part, Porcello isn’t a good fit in a trade, not matter how good you think he is/isn’t.
I think the Tigers could piece something together not involving Porcello for Street. Street wouldn’t interest me in the least if it had to involve Porcello. Capps for Porcello? Next. Maybe one of the Dodgers, but again, I’m not willing to include Porcello. As good as those two may be, it’s not that big of an upgrade over what you already have to justify giving up Porcello, especially with Zumaya waiting in the wings.
You look at what Baltimore did throwing Sherrill in that role, Pitt did the same thing with Capps. You don’t need a real special player to be your closer. Nothing against those guys, but they just aren’t on the same level talent wise as Porcello and you can find an adequate closer through much cheaper means. Chad Qualls or Juan Cruz would be two I look at.
Trading Porcello for a closer is a panic move. You don’t have to spend that much to fix the problem, so why do it?
by slurve on
Oct 4, 2025 12:40 PM EDT
up
0 recs
OK, I'm confused
Do you agree or disagree that the Tigers have crap in their farm system besides Porcello? Because if you agree that their system is barren save Porcello then they have nothing that comes close to landing even Matt Capps, whom you dismissed so readily. Or am I missing somebody/somebodies?
I know you don’t like the idea of trading Porcello for a closer. EVERYONE knows that by now. But it is the only viable plan either of us have come up with!
You’re clutching at straws, slurve. Zumaya hasn’t pitched well since 2006 and it’s an outright insult to Broxton and Saito to say they aren’t a huge upgrade over what the Tigers currently have in their bullpen. The Orioles got lucky with Sherrill’s 1st half and in typical Baltimore fashion they failed to deal him when the getting was good. You aren’t in love with Capps? Fine, doesn’t break my heart.
Chad Qualls or Juan Cruz? That’s so sad I can’t even laugh. Who do you trade to land Qualls? And a team serious about shooting for the WS does not sign Juan Cruz with the intent of making him their closer.
You’re right on one thing, these guys I brought up aren’t at the same talent level as Porcello. While they were getting it done (some of them quite impressively, I might add) in the big leagues Porcello was busy striking out 5 per 9 IP in the FSL. He’s a prospect who might never pitch an inning in the big leagues because sometimes shit happens.
I get it, you don’t like this plan. Fact is the Tigers need a new, high-end closer and the only way they can land one is via trade. Porcello is the only guy they have in the system who could acquire that big league pitcher. If you think you can cobble up enough Tiger farmhands to come up with a different trade package I’ll be glad to listen.
Otherwise, as Tigers GM-for-a-Day!, I’m calling up KC to do a Porcello/Soria swap.
Enjoy the rest of the week-end.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 4, 2025 1:36 PM EDT
up
0 recs
whatever
They don’t have to have a high-end closer. Sorry, they just don’t. Even if they did, there isn’t one out there that is a combo of cheap, great and available. Didn’t say that Saito/Broxton wouldn’t be a good upgrade, I said they weren’t going to make enough difference to justify trading an arm like Porcello. You need to worry about reading comprehension before taking a stab at being a GM. Dreams are nice, so continue having them.
by slurve on
Oct 4, 2025 3:19 PM EDT
up
0 recs
So says the guy
who’s actually advocating Juan Cruz for Closer for a WS contender.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 4, 2025 10:26 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Check out their careers
Cruz has been terribly erratic his entire career and still throws too many free passes. Not to mention he’s never been entrusted with the responsibility before so there’s no telling if he’s mentally up for the job.
I’ll be honest slurve, when you first chimed in I was expecting something better from you. You’re actually going to argue that with your job on the line and a puncher’s chance at a title shot in 2009 your going to pin your hopes on Juan Cruz becoming your 9th inning guy.
I’ll admit my Porcello idea is a bit radical, but this Juan Cruz proposal is truly… original thinking.
I’m done.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 5, 2025 3:26 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Actually
you were done a long time ago. I tried, but reality just doesn’t register with some.
by slurve on
Oct 5, 2025 7:24 AM EDT
up
0 recs
On a seperate note
Porcello doesn’t enter the discussion as a Top-5 prospect until he starts striking people out. A Top-20 guy? That wouldn’t ruffle my fur and if I was in a real good mood I’d probably agree with an arguement that snuck him into the Top-10.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 10:36 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Uh, he's already
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 10:48 AM EDT
up
0 recs
http://www.projectprospect.com/article/2008/07/21/top-25-prospect-rankings
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 10:49 AM EDT
up
0 recs
You're link isn't being linky
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 11:23 AM EDT
up
0 recs
link
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 11:44 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Thanks for the working link
Seriously premature ranking.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 12:15 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Dude
Just stop. He was ranked #21 at BA last year. Many that ranked above him are no longer eligible for the list, so naturally, he’s going to move up due to attrition alone. Porcello, while he may have raised an eyebrow or two for lack of K’s, has done nothing really to hurt his status, ESPECIALLY given the fact that the Tigers wouldn’t let him throw his curve - he was still very successful.
I expect BA and most others to rank him the top 10. It’s not premature, it’s where he’s at.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 12:53 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I disagree
Your link has him ranked #6. I think that is too high. I’ve explained why I think anything higher then a #10 ranking is premature. You haven’t said anything to convince me that my concern over his lack of K’s isn’t justified.
I haven’t said anything to bad-mouth the guy, I simply said that any pitcher with so few strike outs does not warrant a Top-5 selection and having him #6 is still too close to #5. I would be more than happy to change my opinion on his ranking once he starts striking people out a bit more frequently then Vincent Mazzaro does.
‘Cause last I checked, K/9 was one of the better indicators of minor league pitchers transitioning well into big league pitchers. I like Porcello’s control and GB rate, I want more strike outs. Why does that get you so defensive?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 1:47 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Laddy-frickin'-dah
You think it’s premature. Good for you. I’ll continue to listen to scouts, BA and others before I listen some guy named after a purple puppet.
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 2:21 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Royal blue, you hybrid pitch
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 2:42 PM EDT
up
0 recs
And I was being clear on my position
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 11:24 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Deal Porcello? Are you crazy?
The Tigers aren’t that one piece away from winning the WS.
Relievers are expendable. There are some stud relievers and there are your elite closers, but outside of those guys, they’re pretty expendable and turnover is high.
Now with 100% more Canuck.
by Blicks on
Oct 3, 2025 10:15 AM EDT
up
0 recs
So trade Porcello for an elite closer
In my original post I was hoping to find a closer plus a solid bullpen arm in the exchange, perhaps I should have stuck to Porcello/Closer.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 10:38 AM EDT
up
0 recs
No, not even an elite closer.
Win-now moves from the Tigers won’t help the franchise. Why not be on a 2 year plan? Sheff and Robertson are off the books in 2010. Use that money to pursue a closer via FA.
Build the farm system. The value of a good farm is immense.
Verlander-Galarraga-Bonderman-Porcello-Anyone is a good rotation if JV bounces back, and Bonderman is fine after his injuries. Starting pitching is the foundation of a good team. Period. Yes, offense is important too, but solid pitching is marginally more important than the offense is. Look at the Dodgers. Look at where they rank offensively. Even with Manny.
Now with 100% more Canuck.
by Blicks on
Oct 3, 2025 11:48 AM EDT
up
0 recs
The Tigers are on a 2 year plan!
The plan was to win a WS title in 2008 or 2009. Why else do you think they stripped their system to acquire Renteria, Cabrera and Willis?
I’m all for building through the farm system but the Tigers are a long way from producing anyone other than Porcello in the next few years.
As I said below, the Tigers are closer to being a contender then they are being a suitable canidate for a full rebuild. Sheffield would be a prime guy to move with only 1 year left on his contract except for the fact that he was hurt and didn’t hit in 2008! Even if you only had to pay half his salary to move him you still wouldn’t get anything in return, you’d get C-grade prospects at best. You’d get a better return package if you paid more of his salary but then you wouldn’t be getting the salary relief to actually get help on the FA market.
Guillen has 3 years left on his deal, and with his injuries and drop in performance he’ll be a hard sell this offseason. I think he’s a guy who can be moved a year from now regardless of performance as long as he gets healthy. Teams are much more willing to take a chance on a guy for two years then they are for three years.
Of course, you could trade Mags right now but then you’re seriously hurting your offense and if you have any hopes for contending in 2009 (and I think the Tigers do hope that) then that’s a trade that’s probably going to be counter-productive to contending.
Quite honestly there’s a reality you aren’t facing here. There’s a very good chance that Porcello’s more then a year away from helping Detroit. If he’s pitching well in Detroit’s rotation by the middle of the 2010 season it will have been a meteoric rise through the system! So you’ll get your dream rotation for 3 months.
And when 2011 rolls around Bonderman and Inge will be gone, Mags and Guillen will be in the final year of their contracts, Verlander (since he hasn’t been signed through his arby years as of yet) will be a year from FA and it’s doubtful that the Tigers will have anyone even close to being ready in their farm system to replace the vets. Detroit will have to rebuild through free agency.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 12:39 PM EDT
up
0 recs
You cannot build a farm system while spending all your money on contending with the major league team
short of brilliant scouting (Tigers haven’t got that) or exceptional luck (probably not a great idea to rely on that). The only Tigers prospects that they have developed of any consequence in the last 5 years have been bonus babies.
The team is built to win now. You have two choices— work within the current constraints or blow it up. Half-assing it is not an option.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 12:40 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Sure you can....
Look at Boston. They are the most successful team in baseball over the past 5 years and yet they have developed:
Lars, Hanley, Anibal Sanchez, Ellsbury, Lester, Lowrie, Buccholz, Pedroia, Youkilis, Papelbon, Masterson, Beltre, etc.
I agree that smaller market teams can’t do both but larger market teams such as New York, Boston, LA and Detroit can do both. If anything, Detroit should increase their amount on scouting but they had a decent system until the Miggy/Willis trade. Dealing Miller and Maybin really set their system back.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 3, 2025 12:51 PM EDT
up
0 recs
If trading two players "really sets your system back"
then you didn’t have a good system. And let’s not kid ourselves, the rest of that trade was basically jank.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 1:48 PM EDT
up
0 recs
The Renteria trade also hurt.
Jair Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez. Gorkys would be another top prospect in the system, and we all know what Jair did this year.
Now with 100% more Canuck.
by Blicks on
Oct 3, 2025 4:34 PM EDT
up
0 recs
You didn't really address my point that you were incorrect when you stated " You cannot build a farm system while spending all your money on contending with the major league team"
Boston has proven that you can do this.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 3, 2025 5:01 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Boston's record on drafting players is very very good
and approximately 39137686 times better than Detroit’s. It is also built on over-slot bonuses, which the Tigers cannot afford if they pour every spare quarter from under the couch cushions into the MLB roster.
So unless you’re suggesting that Detroit can revamp their entire scouting apparatus overnight, it’s a non sequiter.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 5:11 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Ummmm......
Porcello was signed over slot so it would lead me to believe that Detroit is willing to do this. Also in recent years Detroit has drafted/signed Miller, Porcello, Hernandez, Juirjens, Maybin, Verlander, Zumaya, Granderson, etc. That seems like a pretty good record of drafting to me. How exactly are you aware of what Detroit spends on their minor leagues? In my opinion, they have not shied away from signing top prospects (Verlander, Miller, Maybin) and in fact have been willing to go over slot (Porcello). And just to let you know, when they signed Porcello over slot they still went out and gave big contracts to Miggy and Willis so apparently they CAN still give out over slot bonuses and spend big money.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 4, 2025 2:40 AM EDT
up
0 recs
You can see the impact of the max-effort strategy this year
Their last four first picks were Verlander, Maybin, Miller and Porcello, all signed for hugely over slot.
This year they had to stick strictly to slot (and actually scrimped out on rounds 7-10, which is as far as the chart I have goes) even though they had no supplemental round picks at all.
Granderson was drafted in 2002, before their current GM even took office. Jurrjens signed in 2003. Hernandez just got done posting his second straight year with a .735 OPS in A-ball, so I think we can wait a bit to anoint him a success story.
I stand by my contention— the Tigers have shown absolutely no ability to draft and sign amateur players except through enormous bonuses to players who would not have even gotten to them in a system where every team actually picks the best player.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 4, 2025 3:32 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Bonuses
Is that your contention? I remember your contention being that the Tigers cannot afford to spend money on the draft due to financial constraints. You actually stated:
“You cannot build a farm system while spending all your money on contending with the major league team
short of brilliant scouting (Tigers haven’t got that) or exceptional luck (probably not a great idea to rely on that).”
The TIgers have shown the willingness to spend over-slot the same year in which they spend enormous amounts in salary. This is a team that signed Porcello over-slot and then went out and signed Willis and Miggy to long term big money deals. The Tigers have developed numerous impact or decent players in recent years (Verlander, Zumaya, Juirjens, Granderson, Miner, Rodney, Inge, Joyce). I don’t know why you cannot admit that the Tigers have actually decent at drafting. Last year if they don’t make the Miggy/WIllis and Renteria trades, their top prospects are Miller, Maybin, Porcello, Hernandez, Juirjens. That is one hell of a top 5.
Also, here are the BA marks for Detroit drafts since 2004:
2004 - A
2005 - A
2006 - B+
2007 - No grade yet, BA takes a year to grade so they can truly judge the impact of the prospects..
For fun, lets look at Oakland’s drafts since you seem to believe that everybody else should follow their cost cutting methods:
2004 - A
2005 - B
2006 - C+
2007 - N/A
Wow, it looks like Detroit is doing something right while still spending money on the MLB team.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 4, 2025 1:05 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I'd just like to comment for a moment
BA’s draft grades often end up being meaningless. For years they waxed eloquent on the Angels 2001 draft class, going so far as to call it the best draft class in the book as recently as 2006. They gave it an A-grade for Casey Kotchman, Dallas McPherson, Jason Mathis, Steven Shell and Jake Woods.
Do you think that draft class still deserves an A-grade?
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 4, 2025 1:47 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Those draft grades are self-evidently ridiculous
I won’t waste my time blowing them up.
As for the bonuses, the pattern is obvious. 2007, Tigers MLB payroll is $95 million and they spend a lot of money on the draft. 2008, their payroll is $138 million and they pay slot or below to every pick. It doesn’t take Allan Greenspan to figure out the economics here.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 4, 2025 10:03 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Here's the thing
I might be crazy.
But more importantly, I think the Tigers are closer to being a 1-piece-away team then they are to being a team suited for a massive rebuild.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 11:31 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Do NOT trade Porcello
While he may not help the Tigers win the World Series in 2009, he will help them contend for several more after that. To be quite honest, if the Tigers had the need towards the end of the 09 season i would not be surprised to see Porcello get called up.
I think the Tigers and Mets should get together on a trade though. The Mets have plenty of expendable bullpen arms who have run their course in New York. Relievers are such a year by year performer that maybe the Tigers could take a chance on a guy like Shoeneweis or Feliciano and hope they work out for them.
by Kazmir2657 on
Oct 2, 2025 9:07 PM EDT
up
0 recs
So you want to trade for bullpen arms that melted down in 2008?
Interesting.
Here’s the thing. Porcello will not help the Tigers contend for years to come because there won’t be a team behind him. The Tigers stripped the farm system last offseason and their most recent draft focused on power arms that could move quickly into the big league bullpen. If the players they have at the big league level turn to crap then there aren’t homegrown replacements ready to take over. You can’t buy an entirely new roster.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 11:30 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Everyone's being slightly too negative
The Tigers do need to get lucky in order to get back to the series, u
by demondeaconsbaseball on Oct 2, 2025 6:57 PM EDT 0 recs
Crap, wrong button
Anyways, the Tigers do need to get lucky to get back to the Series, but we’re in a decent position as far as our hopes of contending go.
Here’s what I would do.
1. Flip Carlos Guillen for a good bullpen arm or an innings eater: Carlos has a good reputation from 06 and 07 and I’m betting that Dave Dombrowski could find value out of that. If we could get a quality, cheap setup guy or a decent innings eater, we’ll be much better off.
2. Platoon Marcus Thames and Matt Joyce in LF. They’re both good, fairly cheap players.
3. Stick with Sheff until the break and then trade him if he’s hot for something we need. There’s no point in dealing him for pennies on the dollar when we could use him as an important chip at the break.
4. Move Ingey back to third. I think part of the reason that Inge’s bat sucked this year is because of the transition to catching. He doesn’t like it, and he’s a wizard at 3B, so lets keep him there for a month or two and hope he warms up. If not, we deal Sheff for a 3B or make a play on someone like Mike Lamb or Casey Blake- second tier 3B.
5. Sign a defensive minded SS (like Adam Everett) and use him as a backup to Ramon Santiago for the first few months. If Santiago keeps performing like he has this year, then we keep him in the lineup. If not, we trade, bench or release him and play the defensive player.
6. Sign a second tier FA catcher and platoon him with Dusty Ryan to see if the kid can catch. It’s a leap of faith, but the alternative is paying an arm and a leg for Pudge.
7. Resign Freddy Garcia, make a play on a yearlong contract for the following pitchers: Carl Pavano (if he asks for a reasonable amount of money), Bartolo Colon, Jason Jennings. They’re major risks that may be a little cheaper, and while also a leap of faith, are a lot better than buying CC Sabathia.
8. Buy some bullpen arms. Affelt and Cruz are two solid picks- make them compete with Rodney and Robertson for the closers role.
9. Scavenge off the waiver wire for more bullpen arms. Hey, it can’t hurt. And look at Dombrowski’s record there: a lot of good arms and Craig Monroe (back when he was decent).
Our rotation next year
SP Verlander
SP Bonderman
SP Gallaraga
SP Garcia
SP FA/Miner/Willis
Our bullpen next year
CL: Robertson, Affelt/Cruz
SU: whoever loses the CL job
SU: Rodney
MU: Seay
MU: Willis
MU: Lopez
MU: waiver find or FA
Our lineup
CF Granderson
2B Polanco
1B Cabrera
RF Ordonez
DH Sheff
LF Joyce/Thames
C: Ryan/FA platoon
SS: Santiago/FA
3B: Inge
If this doesn’t work, blow it up in 10. But until then, lets take the risk and double down.
by demondeaconsbaseball on
Oct 2, 2025 7:15 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Irony
Gotta love a signature like that with such a quick pull of the plug as the Tigers answer…
by slurve on
Oct 3, 2025 7:32 AM EDT
up
0 recs
1. Re-sign Garcia
2. Let Renteria go
3. Keep Inge at catcher, Guillen at short, Thames and Joyce in left
4. Sign a bunch of low-risk, high-reward pitchers like Bartolo Colon
5. Call up Porcello late in the season
6. Sign Fuentes
7. Tell Leyland he can go if he doesn’t agree
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 2, 2025 8:05 PM EDT 0 recs
I'm the GM!
The Tigers put themselves in serious financial ruts in 2008. Many expected them to dominate the 2008 season, and some had them stamped for the World Series. However, they traded away their farm system for old players and the injuries and lack of performance that followed was as out of the blue as it seemed.
Solutions for the Tigers to get back on track:
- Trade Placido Polanco! He has one year left on his contract, and with a relatively unattractive FA lot, a team may be willing to trade for Polanco’s .300 average. Polanco’s return will indefinitely be more valuable to the Tigers than his .350 OBP from 2B. Potential takers could include the Dodgers, Mets, Yankees, Cardinals, Padres and others
- Trade Gary Sheffield for Joe Inglett. Inglett can produce as much as Polanco can, but has less value on the trade market
- In the event that Cabrera takes to DH, the Tigers should consider Richie Sexson as a solution at first base, who obviously has some potential with the stick and a handy glove at first.
- Sign Rafael Furcal. He is a great defender, still has wheels and a little more ability to hit then Renteria
- The pitching staff needs an obvious boost, and they should keep Dontrelle in the bullpen to aid there. The Tigers would need to entertain a number of short term signings, possibly including Brandon Lyon, Rafael Soriano, or Jeremy Affeldt, whichever is affordable, to aid their dead rotation and bullpen
- Sign Rich Harden
- Keep Brandon Inge at catcher where he’s most valuable.
Lineup:
SS Furcal
CF Granderson
RF Ordonez
DH Cabrera
3B Guillen
LF Thames/Joyce
1B Sexson
C Inge
2B Inglett
Rotation:
Verlander
Gallaraga
Harden
Bonderman
Miner
Bullpen:
Lyon/Soriano
Zumaya
Rodney
Affeldt/Seay
Willis
Lopez
Robertson
The big improvements really are in the fielding just by having Cabrera at DH, and the Bullpen
by METSMETSMETS on Oct 2, 2025 8:17 PM EDT 0 recs
Harden and other thoughts
First off Harden isn’t a free agent. Secondly, why do you think the Jays want Sheffield and his 13 million dollars. Their GM is on record stating that he isn’t interested in Sheffield. Also, they really value Inglett especially with the uncertainty surrounding Aaron Hill’s concussions. Signing Sexson leaves you needing another bat because he is finished hitting right handers. You better find someone to platoon with him.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 2, 2025 8:36 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Harden
He’s listed in Cot’s baseball contracts as having an option, so you’re right on that, but I guess they could even push for Sheets.
On Sheff, the Tigers could eat enough contract that the Jays would be enticed to revisit Sheffield as a low cost way to bring in potential gain at the plate. No GM is really that definitive in what they say.
Sexson is an offensive liability no doubt, but the lineup isn’t suffering as much as the defense.
by METSMETSMETS on
Oct 2, 2025 10:28 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Even if the Cubs decline the option on Harden
They still retain his rights since he hasn’t had 6 major league seasons yet (according to Cots).
by thejd44 on
Oct 2, 2025 11:27 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Burnett
AJ Burnett is a strong possibility for the Tigers struggling rotation…almost guaranteed he’ll walk from the Jays and be looking for big money that Detroit can afford…
Also, the Jays will have some solid RPs available likely through trade, so there is potential for a deal there, not sure what the Tigers would ship back but there are some quality BP arms in Toronto.
by bunner on
Oct 3, 2025 4:14 PM EDT
up
0 recs
How does Detroit afford this, then?
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 5:13 PM EDT
up
0 recs
It easy, mmmkay!
The Tigers are horrible. If they invest 20-25 million dollars in a Latin American instructional league, then horde the talent they develop in their multi million dollar compound, then simply release all their bad contracts, that will be a start.
They should also invest 10 million dollars on a 5 talented 18 year old players and put them in a building they construct in downtown Detroit. They should create a reality show on like Big Brother or Real World, and have these guys play baseball for 10 hours a day every day, then party all night (so ratings won’t be horrible). With these guys living sleeping eating baseball and working out like mofos, they should develop into the next breed of super athletes. They’ll also be super popular.
They could show that on Michigan Cable Access.
I've got a McPheever, and only JoJo Reyes can help me!
by Buzz Bissinger on Oct 2, 2025 9:50 PM EDT 0 recs
By the way
That Tiger photo looks like it should be on a sweater of a guy who likes Wham!
I've got a McPheever, and only JoJo Reyes can help me!
by Buzz Bissinger on
Oct 2, 2025 9:52 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Hmm....
This is a tough one. I don’t think you can really push hard to dump a ton of payroll, because you don’t have the farm system to recover from it. I think you have to go with a three year plan to remove some of the bloated contracts from the team. You have about $23M coming off the books with Renteria, Rogers, Jones, and Farnsworth gone. But you have about $15M in raises due to various players as well, meaning a net gain of only $8M. To shed some more salary, you need to move three guys: Polanco, Sheffield, and Ordonez.
Polanco has one year left at a reasonable $4.6M, so he’ll be a decent alternative to Hudson or Ellis on the FA market, and a big improvement over a guy like Castillo on the trade market. There should be multiple teams lining up to deal for him, but for this exercise we’re gonna say they trade with St. Louis. Allen Craig and a low level prospect come back my way, with Craig stepping in at 3B for hopefully the next 6-8 years. This pushes Guillen to 1B, which should improve the INF defense some. This also puts Inge back behind the dish. I’d sit him down and say for the good of the team, the one paying you $6M+ a year, you’re going to catch this year and next. If he’s going to be an offensive black hole, he’s going to do it behind the plate. This also means that MCab moves to DH, which is probably best for everyone.
Ok next up on the block is Sheffield. It’s not going to be easy to move him without eating his whole contract, but I’d rather give some AB’s to younger guys to see if they are going to be in our plans down the road or not. I’d see if Texas would give up Joaquin Arias for him. I’m not sure how good Raburn is defensively at 2B, but I’d try to cobble something together with Raburn and Arias at 2B, an offense/defense type thing if necessary. Hopefully between the two they can give you 75% of Polanco’s production.
Maggs is the last big piece to move, and he should be able to bring a decent return. I’d eat $8M of his salary this year and offer to cover the buyout for next year to get some better guys in return. I think the Braves make a good bit of sense here, as they could use Ordonez in LF and save a little extra money to try and land two SP in the FA market. Brent Lillibridge and one of the Braves myriad pitching prospects would suffice I think. Lillibridge becomes the starting shortstop, so the INF is now rounded out.
Granderson obviously has CF locked down, so in the corners we have some combo of Matt Joyce, Marcus Thames, and Brent Clevlen. I’m not sure if I’d give Thames full time AB’s, or just try and split the time up between them, but I want to see if Clevlen has a future with this team or not. In any event, let these guys get the AB’s out there and see what happens.
On the pitching side, Verlander/Bonderman/Galarraga are locked into the rotation. I’d bring back Garcia on an incentive laden deal, there should be some goodwill from this year I’d think. After that, I’d say the Miner probably has the edge for the 5th spot, but Willis and Robertson should at least get a shot at the 5 spot. The two losers of the rotation battle plus Zumaya and Rodney are the start of the pen. Lopez comes back for another long relief/middle relief option. I’d look to add two relievers to the mix probably, at least one that could close games for you. I’m not sure that Zumaya or Rodney is the answer at closer, yet I wouldn’t spend a ton of cash on guys like Fuentes or K-Rod. Dan Wheeler could be an option, but you may have to pay him close to closer money. Juan Cruz could be an option, although he might be too much like Zumaya and Rodney. Damaso Marte would be another option to consider, although LH closers aren’t the norm. It might make the most sense to grab two guys that could close and them battle it out with Zumaya and Rodney.
After this year, you should know what your OF will look like for the next few years, and should have the left side of the INF locked down. I would cross my fingers that either Willis or Robertson rebounds well and contributes and that the other performs well enough to have some trade value for next offseason. Trading one of them in 2009 and then Guillen in 2010 should help you get down into a decent payroll range, hopefully picking up a couple of prospects in trades and the development of Porcello should really have you ready for a run in 2011, while still allowing a team that can contend until then.
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on Oct 2, 2025 9:51 PM EDT 0 recs
Not too bad
There is one big hole in your thinking, though. Ordonez’s option becomes guaranteed (for both ‘10 and ’11) if he’s a regular starter next year (he only needs 457 PA to vest the options), and they also escalate to $18M in ’10 and $15M in ’11. Good luck moving that contract.
The Tigers really, really dug themselves a hole last year. According to Cot’s, they owe almost $103M to 12 guys next year (one of whom is Porcello), plus another $3M to buy out Renteria, before arbitration hearings (Thames, for instance, should get a nice raise from his $1.275M). They won’t move Sheffield without eating all of his contract. They’d need a midwinter disaster in the Bronx to find someone to take Ordonez, and losing him would pretty much ditch any chance to compete in ’09.
In other words, all of the “If I were GM” articles above forget one important factor: You may be a fake GM, but the real owner has told the real GM to cut salary (supposedly to the $100M range), and there’s no good way to do it. You could move Guillen and get some relief, but anyone else is either hideously overpaid (Willis, Robertson, Inge, Sheffield, Bonderman), can’t be upgraded for the money (Polonco, Verlander, Granderson), or owed a gazillion dollars (Ordonez, Cabrera).
I don’t have the answers, because I don’t see how they move any of those contracts so they can bring in needed players AND cut payroll to the rumored level.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
Oct 3, 2025 10:09 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Cutting salary
I’ve heard conflicting reports on this, some articles say a payroll cut is coming while others say not-so-fast. The only thing that seems certain at this point is that Dombrowski will not be getting extra funding for next season. So I think if someone is willing to present a cost-neutral plan they should get some slack until we all find out for certain what the money is going to look like.
The monster at the end of this blog.
by grover on
Oct 3, 2025 11:37 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Well...
I did miss the vesting option part on Ordonez, but I still think with the $8M in 2009 and the $3M in 2010 I mentioned sending, that makes Ordonez’s contract essentially 3 years and $40M-that’s a deal you can move this offseason. Trading Magglio seems to be the only real option they have with him. If you keep him, you’re going to have to limit his PA’s so the options don’t vest. If you do that, he’s going to be unhappy most likely. Then you decline the options and you’re free of the commitment, but you can’t really offer arbitration to get any picks for fear of him accepting if slashing payroll is your goal. So you eat some of the contract, even splitting it up over all three years if necessary, and move him for a decent return.
On Sheff, I said this: “It’s not going to be easy to move him without eating his whole contract,”. If I’m running the team, I’d be ok moving Sheff to get these other players the AB’s, even if it means we’re paying his salary. I do think that you might be able to get off the hook for a couple of million in a trade, it’s just going to come down to what you want to end up with in return. I’d pay the one time expense of his whole contract to get a better return.
In my above scenario, even with signing a RP, you’re in the $120M range, which isn’t cut all the way down, but it’s $17M off the top. Like I said in my opening paragraph, you’re going to have to take a three year approach to cutting the payroll, unless you do a Marlins fire sale special. If one of Robertson or Willis can rebound enough next year to have at least positive trade value not negative value, that’s another big chunk you get off the books. You probably also trade away Guillen after the 2009 season, clearing off another $13M. If we assume that Robertson gains value, because he’s the cheaper of the two pitchers, he and Guillen would clear up another $20M from the payroll. After the 2010 season, Inge and Willis fall off the books(unless Dontrelle does a complete 180, and I’d still trade him even then) you gain another $18.6M. So over the three years of 2008-2010, you’ve cut $55M off the payroll. Yes, you will have some raises over 2009-2010, but you’ve still put yourself into the $100M range, and by dealing some of these guys that value now(Polanco, Ordonez) and by moving a couple more as contracts get near expiration(one of the LHSP, Guillen) you can bring in some young, cheap talent to help with the rebuild.
I’m certainly not saying my plan is perfect, but I think it’s doable.
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on
Oct 3, 2025 12:38 PM EDT
up
0 recs
It's going to be tough
- You’re only saving $7M this year by moving Maggs, your 2nd best offensive player (and I question whether $11M is enough to move him)
- You aren’t saving a dime on Sheffield
- You’re saving about $3.8M by moving Polonco (and hoping to get 75% of his production.
The way I have it added up, you’ve got $68M committed to the players named, plus 4 arb-eligible (Thames, Zumaya, Rodney, and Lopez), plus $29M in buyouts/eaten salaries; a total of over $105M. Plus, you still need 5 more players (2 hitters, 3 pitchers probably).
Here’s the bad part: You’ve gotten rid of 2nd best hitter and your good hitting 2b while making your defense much worse at at least 3 positions (all pretty important - 3rd, 2nd, C). On a team that won 74 games this year.
Like I said, I don’t have a better solution. But knowing Ilitch, Dombrowski, and Tigers fans in general, a 3 year “salary dump” plan isn’t likely to be well recieved.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
Oct 3, 2025 2:10 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I'm confused about a couple of these points
One, I never said you would save money on Sheffield, not once and I never counted him as any kind of savings. I did say I think it’s possible you could pay all but a million or two of his deal, but then you lessen the return on him. Sheffield wouldn’t match Bradley’s production, but he’d be another option for Texas instead of having to give Milton a multi year deal. I thought Arias’ strength was his defense. If not, there is German Duran as an option I suppose. Not alot of options for Sheff I don’t think, so I figured maximizing him in a hitters park where he could DH made some sense.
You are right on the Maggs money issue, I was looking at his 2009 salary, but you’re technically saving yourself $10M next year by trading him with $8M in cash, if you keep him you pay him $18M. It’s only $7M off of this year’s payroll figure, but I think that additional $3M counts for something. I still don’t see how Maggs at essentially 3 years and $40M is going to be that hard to deal. I know that you’ve got Dunn, Burrell, and Manny out there on the market, but for sure Dunn and Manny will cost more than 3 years and $40M, and Burrell could come close to it. I think it’s an easy deal you could make there, with many teams. Philly, Atlanta, the Angels maybe, Arizona, the Yankees, hell Tampa could use a veteran bat like Ordonez and has plenty of prospects to give up for him. I picked what I thought was a decent match, but the truth is there are plenty of landing spots and options as far as the return you get.
Polanco is like Maggs, where multiple teams should be interested if you make him available. I went with the Cards because it seemed like an easy fit, they have a surplus of 3B prospects, and that would be a need for Detroit in my opinion. Again, you can probably name 5 or more teams that would be interested in Polanco in a trade, so pick from them and get a good match for your needs. If Craig isn’t good at 3B, forget him and look for someone else. I don’t remember seeing much saying he’s a butcher at 3B or anything though, but that doesn’t mean he’s not.
I figure with Polanco and Ordonez you should be able to get 2 of the following positions in a trade: 2B, SS, 3B. I mean, if you can get a catcher that is starting caliber, then leave Inge at 3B, but offensively he should do less damage at catcher, and I think it’s probably easier to get a 3B in a trade than a catcher, the two reasons why I’d stick Inge behind the plate.
I agree with you that it’s not a perfect solution-I don’t think there is one. I think you’ve got three options, which are pretty basic-spend more, fire sale, or my kind of plan. Fans won’t like the fire sale, and I don’t think that ownership is going to go for more spending. That doesn’t leave a lot of middle ground really. This is a tough situation to try and solve.
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on
Oct 3, 2025 3:14 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Please, don't overreact
It’s not that Arias isn’t a good fielder, it’s that an Arias/Raburn platoon isn’t as good as Polonco. The same’s true with Craig - he may be a good enough 3B, but Inge is borderline stellar there (and not so much behind the plate). The replacements at those positions simply won’t be as good as the guys there before, that’s all.
As for Ordonez, in a vacuum he may be worth 3/$40M, but outside of the vacuum he’ll be 37 in the final year of that contract. In other words, the receiving team is going to have to hope he’s worth $15M at a time he’s likely well past his prime. Plus, he’ll be a 37 year old with a history of knee trouble. If it wasn’t for that 3rd year, I’d agree that he’d be pretty attractive to someone, especially if Detroit picks up some of his salary.
Often wrong, never uncertain.
by sidnancy on
Oct 3, 2025 5:50 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Sorry
I’m sorry if it sounded like I was overreacting. I realize that my 2B platoon wouldn’t be as good as Polanco, I was looking for 75% of his offensive production or better, which I think Raburn might be able to do based on his minor league numbers. Like I said in my first post, I don’t know if he can even play 2B well enough to make it work. He’s played less 2B in the minors the last few years, but I don’t know why that is.
With Inge, I look at it like this. He’s great at 3B defensively, but he’s no good offensively. It’s easier to add offense at 3B and put Inge behind the plate than it is to find offense behind the plate and leave Inge at 3B. So you could either get 2 below average hitters with Inge at 3B and someone you dig up at catcher, or you can find a guy that can hit to play 3B and let Inge be a sinkhole offensively behind the plate. To me, as long as you get someone who is solid defensively to replace him at third, you probably come out ahead overall. Basically, I think it’s probably possible to come out about even with a new 3B and 2B with Inge at C as you would with Inge at 3B, Polanco at 2B, and just anyone at C. It’s not going to be exact of course, but if you add up the offense and defense, I think you could make it a wash overall.
I guess we’ll agree to disagree on Maggs. I’d say he’ll be the third best option for a team in need of an OF this offseason, after Manny and Dunn. However, he would be much cheaper in my scenario than either of those guys, and would probably be a shorter term than at least Dunn, and possibly Manny. There is some question about the knee I guess, but he’s played 148, 143, and 135 games in the field in 2006, 2007, and 2008 respectively. That’s not a guarantee he stays healthy, but it’s a pretty good sign I think. A team like Atlanta has Brandon Jones you could carry as a 4th OF to give Maggs a day off now and then too, plus he and Chipper could split the DH spot during interleague play. With so much speculation that the Braves will be looking for an OF and two SP on the FA and/or trade market, Maggs at $13M a year on average(via my proposal) would at least give them a chance to go after Lowe and Burnett if they desired, something you can’t do with either Dunn or Manny. He could always go to an AL team and be able to DH some as well, so I’m just not buying into Ordonez being that difficult to move.
"So's your mom"-David Sloane
by gatling on
Oct 3, 2025 7:41 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Polanco is very good defensively
Not at the Ellis-Utley level, but reliably top 5 in baseball or thereabouts. 75% of his offense with mediocre fielding (dunno about Arias, never heard of him, but I have to assume Raburn is indifferent given that he was moved to the outfield for a while) is not a very good player at all.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 4, 2025 3:36 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Pudge
Why is there an assumption Pudge will cost a lot? He hasn’t been a good hitter since 2004.
by thejd44 on Oct 2, 2025 11:28 PM EDT 0 recs
His reputation
The bazillion time Gold Glove winning, MVP, bazillion time All-Star team member and first ballot Hall of Famer will get a lot of cash.
by demondeaconsbaseball on
Oct 3, 2025 12:20 AM EDT
up
0 recs
Frank Thomas was a first-ballot HOF guy after 2005 and he signed with Oakland for, essentially, a minor league deal
And the next year Piazza, another first-ballot HOFer, took what many would’ve thought would be less than he could’ve gotten.
Many I’m giving GMs too much credit, but it’s pretty easy to see that Pudge can’t hit and never was much defensively outside of a cannon arm.
by thejd44 on
Oct 3, 2025 12:20 PM EDT
up
0 recs
Pudge
Pudge isn’t getting a big contract. He will likely get a 2 year deal but not for anything close to his last seasons salary.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on
Oct 3, 2025 12:26 PM EDT
up
0 recs
At this point, I think 2/$8 mil is probably
or at least should be the best he can get.
by thejd44 on
Oct 3, 2025 7:57 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I, Blicks, am now the GM.
1. Expect nothing out of Nate Robertson and Dontrelle Willis. Yes, that means they are busts. There is very little to nothing you can do about it. The better of Robertson or Willis should be in the rotation, and one should hope that he garners enough value to be traded at the deadline.
2. Build the team around Granderson and Miguel Cabrera. If Galarraga/Verlander holds up next year, add them into the mix. Young, cornerstone players.
3. Do NOT trade Rick Porcello. Unless someone has a knockout offer, which is unlikely.
4. Who pays Renteria’s buyout. Is it the Sox or is the Tigers (IDK how that contract worked out). Buy out Renteria. Ramon Santiago starts at SS. Good defense is just as important as good offense.
5. Eat most/all of Sheffield’s contract and either trade or release him. He can get #500 with another team. Mariners did it with Richie Sexson, Tigers can do it with Sheffield.
6. Build the pen through waivers, the Rule 5, and small-time trades. Having a side piece in a trade being a reliever is also a good idea. I would target a reliever with aforementioned Sheffield trade, although anything does.
7, Trade Carlos Guillen and let Inge play 3B. Target a catcher.
Now with 100% more Canuck.
by Blicks on Oct 3, 2025 10:07 AM EDT 0 recs
Why is Nate Robertson a bust?
His FIP this year was almost identical to what it was the previous 3 years. Isn’t it likely that his ERA next year will revert to his usual decent pitching self?
www.loftylantern.com
by OldProspects on
Oct 3, 2025 5:21 PM EDT
up
0 recs
As GM, I'd build for the future.
This year was an embarrassment for the Tigers and it looks like next year won’t be much better without substantial moves. Even so, with rumors of lower payroll and stifling contracts with little production from Sheffield and Willis will hurt this team next year as well.
Here’s what I would do.
1. Move Carlos Guillen back to SS. He’s more valuable there than 3B or LF. SS isnt that demanding of a position.
2. Try like hell to more Sheffield for anything, but no one will take him unless they eat most if not all of the contract. If they have to eat most/all of the contract, they might as well keep him and pencil him in at DH every day.
3. Put Inge at 3B and stick with him there.
4. Promote Porcello to AA for the start of the 09 season for half a season and if he performs well, call him up to the majors after the all-star break and let him either pitch in relief if the Tigers are still in the race, or get some starts in if they are out of it.
5. Call the Rangers up and see what they would take for any catcher that the Rangers would be willing to trade. See if I could pry away Gerald Laird for a reasonable price or Max Ramirez. Salty or Teagarden would cost too much. If the Rangers aren’t interested, I’d sign a second tier FA catcher (David Ross maybe??) as a stopgap until someone else can be found.
6. Go after a Ryan Dempster/Derek Lowe type pitcher with Randy Johnson as a fallback. Yes, Randy Johnson, who at 45 was still procuctive and could be had on a 1 year deal for a decent price. Low risk, possible high reward. Same for John Smoltz. I’d inquire on Ben Sheets/Penny/Burnett(if not resigned) but they will likely cost too much/want too many years.
7. Build the bullpen. Will Ohman could be a good fit and possibly a closer down the line. Affelt and Cruz are two solid picks- make them compete with Rodney and Robertson for the closers role.
8. Sign Brian Fuentes. Say what you will, but he only blew 4 saves last year. Unless Rodney is the answer at closer, which I don’t think he is.
9. Put Miguel Cabrera on a workout/training schedule and get him back into LF. He played 134 games in LF for the Marlins in 2005.
10. Sign Jason Giambi. A 1 year 8-mil deal shouldn’t be out of the question and he can provide good power/OBP even at 38.
The rotation next year would look something like:
SP Verlander
SP Bonderman
SP Randy Johnson
SP Gallaraga
SP FA/Miner/Willis (Porcello at mid-season)
Bullpen bullpen next year would be something like:
CL: Fuentes
SU: Ohman
SU: Rodney
MU: Seay
MU: Willis
MU: Lopez
MU: waiver find or FA
The lineup would be something like:
CF Granderson
2B Polanco
LF Cabrera/Thames
RF Ordonez
1B Giambi
DH Sheff/Thanes
SS: Guillen
3B: Inge
C: Ross/Ryan
The moves I proposed other than the Fuentes (maybe Ohman) signing are with the short-term in mind. Once the Tigers can shed the salaries of Sheffield and Willis, they can move forward with a more long term goal in mind. Hard to plan around some crippling salaries when you’re not the Yankees.
by Looneyt0on on Oct 3, 2025 2:20 PM EDT 0 recs
Here's the problem
I haven’t done the math down to the nickel, but unless I’m way, way off, the Tigers have almost no payroll flexibility at this point. Subtract off the expiring contracts, add the raises for the current guys and you have $5 million or so to play with.
Five. Million. No Giambi. No Fuentes. You can maybe sign one platoon starter and a middle reliever with that money. That’s the limit to the upgrades that the Tigers can make without either a. trading Porcello, or b. finding a way to cut their payroll, which in practice means trading Ordonez or Guillen, which in turn means damaging next year’s team.
It’s frickin’ hopeless unless you get crazy lucky on some waiver claims or something.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
by PaulThomas on
Oct 3, 2025 3:14 PM EDT
up
0 recs
RE: Here's the problem
I agree 100% with what you said. Unless they find a way to dump salary (if what has been going around about the Tigers not raising payroll is true), then the Tigers won’t be able to make any moves other than signing bit players and castoffs. They won’t find a taker for Sheff’s or Willis’s contracts and unless they deal Magglio for prospects, they won’t be able to free up much salary relief other than Kenny Rogers and Diarrhea, I mean Renteria. I was going under the premise of trying to keep the increases as modest as possible, which is why I suggested a trade for a catcher, trying to dump Sheff’s salary, not going after CC, Texeira or KRod and modest signings like Will Ohman, Randy Johnson and Giambi. I see Fuentes as the most expensive of that bunch, but he’s also filling the greatest need. The severe downside is that the Tigers have a pathetic farm system outside of Porcello and trading him would bring a decent player but then they’d have nothing there.
If I really were the Tigers GM, I’d be calling other teams inquiring about job openings in their front office, because that’s easier than fixing their problems.
by Looneyt0on on
Oct 3, 2025 4:23 PM EDT
up
0 recs
I had suspicions they had problems before the season
Here are the thoughts of a 43 year old, lifelong Tiger fan, still residing in Michigan.
Firstly, last winter, I asked everyone I could, why can’t Carlos Guillen play 3b? This was before they traded their future for Cabrera, Willis and Renteria. And, I was touting Timo Perez, who hit the cover off the ball anytime he played, as a great platoon for Thames in LF.
Ok…so let’s go back to Guillen. It was obvious to me, even before this year, the Tigers were too RH on offense.
LH hitting 1bman are pretty easy to come across. So, if Guillen played 3b, and you get a LH hitting 1bman(maybe a platoon), and you get a GOOD platoon in LF. As an aside, Carlos Pena would look pretty good at 1b, right now, eh?
Forget Brandon Inge. He’s a great defensive player, but he should be a utility guy. He has never shown the ability to hit for average, or be a clutch hitter. If he doesn’t want to be a utility guy, then send him packing.
So, if they had put Guillen at 3rd, they wouldn’t have needed to trade for Cabrera. Now, I can live with Cabrera, but that still is yet another RH in the lineup.
What they need now is Guillen still at 3rd, a GOOD LH platoon with Thames in LF, and a LH catcher.
And, I haven’t even started on Renteria….see below for that. They might have been just as well of with Santiago starting there all year. At least he’s a switch hitter. And, he couldn’t do much worse than Renteria.
That way they can get that lineup balance that good teams strive for. Plus, make them players that draw walks, as too many Tigers do not.
As far as pitching goes, I knew there might be problems. They put way too much faith in Rodney and Zumaya coming back strong. They were not givens, at all. The Tigers needed to get a couple of good relievers as insurance, but didn’t. Their bullpen was a disaster, all year long. The Mets bullpen looked good compared to the Tigers.
You couldn’t predict the rotation issues. But, my eyebrows raised when they traded Jurjens for Renteria. Jurjens put up one impressive outing after another later last year. And, they trade him? That was a major mistake, for a team thin in pitching. Having depth in pitching is vital, and they had very little.
Just think how bad it would have been if Galleraga and Miner hadn’t become dependable starters!
Lastly, I do not think Leyland is that good of a manager, even. Look at the year they lost the World Series to a far inferior Cardinals team. That collapse is on his head. And, they’ve underperformed since. I think they’ll not go anywhere until there’s a new manager in town.
As for Dombrowski, he made a lot of errors as a GM this past winter. But, he’s got a history of good moves. Galleraga was a good one. But, it’s hard to get past trading Jurjens. And, giving Robertson a long deal was a mistake of large proportions. He deserves to stay, however, and atone for his sins.
Forgive if some of this has already been covered. I didn’t have the time to read 144 posts! Zounds.
by billybgame on Oct 6, 2025 10:49 AM EDT 0 recs
Blow it up. They weren't good enough this year and will just be a year older next year.
1) Trade Curtis Granderson to the Cardinals for Colby Rasmus, Bryan Anderson, Jesse Todd, Jon Jay, Peter Kozma, and Francisco Samuel
2) Trade Miguel Cabrera to the Athletics for Trevor Cahill, Daric Barton, Vince Mazzaro, Henry Rodriguez, and Corey Brown
3) Trade Justin Verlander, Placido Polanco and Fernando Rodney to the Yankees for Robinson Cano, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Arodys Vizcaino
4) Trade Magglio Ordonez and Ryan Raburn to the Angels for Gary Matthews, Sean Rodriguez, Brandon Wood and Nick Adenhart
5) Trade Carlos Guillen, Ramon Santiago and Marcus Thames to the Dodgers for Delwyn Young, Hu Chin-lung and Austin Gallagher
6) Trade Armando Galarraga and Bobby Seay to the Braves for Gorkys Hernandez, Brandon Hicks and Randall Delgado
7) Replace Jim Leyland with Ned Yost
8) Boost trade value for midseason trades of Gary Sheffield, Nate Robertson, Jeremy Bonderman, and Joel Zumaya.
9) Make Brandon Inge the starting catcher
10) Sign low cost FAs to fill in holes.
[Crosby] "Guy that has driven in some big runs for the A's over the years" - Vince Cotroneo
by WaddellCanseco on Oct 12, 2025 12:39 PM EDT 0 recs





