Don Drysdale Delivery
What do you pitching mechanics guys think of this one?
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Well, there is the ever dangerous inverted W.
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by Tyler on Jun 28, 2025 11:29 AM EDT reply actions
yeah
Yeah, I noticed that….that’s why I posted this. :)
by John Sickels on Jun 28, 2025 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Did he ever have a significant injury to either elbow/arm/shoulder…………especially throwing arm?
by hrv1978 on Jun 28, 2025 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but...
He retired at 32 with a bum shoulder. However, he had pitched a ton through the “injury nexus”, tossing over 1300 MLB IP before his age 25 season. At which point he put up over 1250 the next four years.
He was a horse for a dozen years, until he wasn’t.
by drwmsu1 on Jun 28, 2025 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
To be fair
While he does show the inverted W, he doesn’t have a really bad timing problem like most pitchers associated with the motion. While his forearm isn’t quite to the vertical position by the time his front foot lands, it gets their within ~1-2 frames of it landing, which leads to significantly less stress than the worst case scenarios. His mechanics also seem quite sound outside of the small timing problem (especially the pitching arm follow through) which likely played a role in his arm holding up as long as it did.
by nixa37 on Jun 28, 2025 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The Inverted W
OK, so, have the “Inverted W Causes Injury” people ever explained - physiologically - why it’s an injury risk factor.
Yes, we can all see that Mark Prior showed the “W” and seen video of Strasburg doing the same (although it looks much less pronounced now in the Majors). But has anyone done a detailed study of pitchers with and without the “W” and whether or not it truly does presage an injury?
by comish4lif on Jun 28, 2025 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Its not so much that the inverted W causes injury
But rather that it points to a likely timing problem that can lead to injury. Pitchers with an inverted W many times have an issue getting their pitching arm into vertical position by the time their front foot lands, which leads to more stress being placed on the shoulder especially, as well as the elbow. Pitchers with an inverted W tend to have an increased distance that the upper pitching arm externally rotates.
Another somewhat related problem that inverted W pitchers can face is that their pitching elbow may rise above the level of their shoulder. Supposedly these are the guys who are injuries waiting to happen. Pitching is unnatural enough, but the elbow is simply not meant to rise that high without the forearm above parallel to the ground.
by nixa37 on Jun 28, 2025 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
And the shoulder isn't meant to be rotated forcefully in an overhand motion.
If there were any science behind the “inverted-W” theory, I could understand why some people put so much stock in it.
The problem is that we’re not talking about looking at a large group of injured pitchers and asking, “how many of these guys have this throwing motion?”
We’re also not looking at a group of guys with that throwing motion and asking, “what percentage of these guys suffer major injuries? Is it higher than normal?”
We’re just looking back at random injured pitchers, noticing that some have an interesting characteristic in their motion that shows up easily in pictures, and acting like that is incontrovertible data that supports the hypothesis.
The inverted-W hypothesis makes middle school science teachers cry.
by PissedMick on Jun 28, 2025 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Re: front foot loading
He retired at 32 with a bum shoulder. However, he had pitched a ton through the "injury nexus", tossing over 1300 MLB IP before his age 25 season. At which point he put up over 1250 the next four years.
He was a horse for a dozen years, until he wasn’t.
It’s interesting that his shoulder issue cropped up late in his career (past the typical injury nexus), and in 1969. After the craziness that was 1968, MLB lowered the height of all the mounds by decree. If I had to guess, I’d say that the added height on the mounds was allowing Drysdale to get his arm where it needed to be when his foot landed.
I don't want to hear any weak sh*t from Jason Grilli.
by cherub_daemon on Jul 2, 2025 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
BJ Ryan
people said for years he was an injury waiting to happen. It happened much later then what most expected, but happened none the less.
Point is, he had quite the inverted arm delivery.
by daman316 on Jun 28, 2025 3:00 PM EDT reply actions
Disagree with the "point"
For every pitcher that someone claims will get injured there is one who isn’t. I wish it were as easy as some people make it out to be, but it isn’t. Many pitchers will get hurt because of how, as Nixa says above, unnatural pitching is, and how much stress a human body can take.
Breaking down pitching mechanics isn’t work one’s time unless they are professional qualified to do so. Everyone’s body is different and thus will react differently to different stresses. For instance, both my arm’s are “double jointed” which basically means I have extremely strong and flexible ligaments. I can turn my arms in a complete circle without dislocation and bend my shoulders in a way I can’t even accurately describe.
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by JDSussman on Jun 28, 2025 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree to an extent
I don’t agree with people who think they can predict pitcher injuries and breakdowns with complete certainty, but I do think its worthwhile to point out guys who we believe are more prone to injury in an attempt to see if they in fact are more prone to injury as part of the process to further understand pitching mechanics.
by nixa37 on Jun 28, 2025 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed, also to an extent
I do think its worthwhile to point out guys who we believe are more prone to injury in an attempt to see if they in fact are more prone to injury
Agree.
further understand pitching mechanics
Disagree. Because I don’t think it is as easily understood as many portray it to be.
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by JDSussman on Jun 28, 2025 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think it is either
That doesn’t mean that the people who understand the complexity of what their dealing with can’t better understand it, even if lay people may not be able to.
by nixa37 on Jun 28, 2025 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
At what point are those on the "inverted-W is bad" side of the discussion actually measuring whether these pitchers are more prone to injury?
What percentage of pitchers suffer major injury? What percentage of pitchers with a bad-juju delivery?
by PissedMick on Jun 28, 2025 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions
They don’t. They’re playing a game of statistics based on observations (and usually based on video shot from awkward angles and at far too low frame rates). Additionally, an “inverted W” isn’t something that a guy has or doesn’t. There’s a whole continuum of W’s with varying degrees of supposed susceptibility. So it would be really tough to grab a group of 50 pitchers, divide them into has and has nots, and just follow their careers, waiting to tally up the injuries.
Even “biomechanical analyses” of joint kinetics won’t do you much good. From imprecise motion capture methods to the fact that even perfect motion capture won’t allow you to ascribe any a force or moment to a muscle or ligament, you would find that you’re wasting your time.
I will admit, however, that in principle, the inverted W makes sense. There’s no reason to believe that a timing flaw couldn’t lead to greater loads being borne by the throwing arm and it’s supporting structures. But I’m really not sure I want to jump on that bandwagon just yet for the reason’s I stated above AND below.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
by gorilla_baller on Jun 28, 2025 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it just proves the point
We don’t know a whole lot about biomechanics or what is good versus what isn’t. Some things may make a guy “more likely” to be injured, but frankly, even some of those things may be disproven down the line. It’s hard to say a guy is an injury risk until he’s actually injured.
by Chris Redman is my hero on Jun 28, 2025 5:15 PM EDT reply actions
Agree and disagree. Disagree: we know a fair amount about what constitutes good and bad mechanics as related to performance. However, trying to make the leap from kinetics to predicting injuries is a futile attempt (at this point).
Overall, I really like what you said, and it’s something that I’ve been harping for a long time. Even if we knew exactly the mechanisms responsible for injury, the best it allows us to do is to use statistics to predict a pitcher’s health. We’ll be able to say that iInjury becomes more likely given x or y, but that’s all. Statistics tell us how the mean pitcher will behave (i.e. mean build, mean force production capabilities, etc.) and we forget that in reality we’re dealing with an individual that is most assuredly NOT average in many, if not all, of his characteristics. So until we can cut a guy open and measure directly the magnitude of forces his soft tissue can handle, we’re only going to be able to an injury is “probable” or “not likely” for certain mechanical characteristics of a pitcher’s delivery.
There may or may not be something to the inverted W, but even if it spells doom for the average pitcher’s career, there’s always going to be physical freaks that can perform at a level above the mean due to superior body architecture.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
by gorilla_baller on Jun 28, 2025 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think someone said
that 60% of all pitchers hit the DL in their career. That shows that if you guess someone will hurt their arm, it’s a safe bet.
Their is no such thing as good mechanics unless you want to throw underhanded and I don’t see any pitching coaches teaching that :)
I think a lot of it is genetic. I think some people have weaker shoulders and elbows, just like some people have bad backs. I really think as sports develop, more will be done with genetics to analyze players. It is already done a little with bloodlines, as there are a lot of baseball families and these guys often get treated superiorly to others, whether it is deserved or not.
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by garrioch13 on Jun 28, 2025 9:25 PM EDT reply actions
Don’t you think that players who have fathers that played professionally might develop into superior players as a result (partly) of growing up around the game, spending time at the ballpark, etc.? You always hear Joe Morgan (a name I had hoped to never invoke in support of any argument I might make) talk about Griffey Jr. always hanging out in the clubhouse and shagging flyballs. Same thing with Prince Fielder, the Alomars, Boones, and Barry. These guys spent their childhood playing baseball and benefiting from tutelage of major league ballplayers. As much as genetics probably DOES play a role, I wouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the factor that tutelage and coaching plays in developing fantastic ballplayers.
But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.
by gorilla_baller on Jun 28, 2025 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
absolutely agree
even if you use Joe Morgan for a defense. I think those guys get huge advantages and are ahead of their peers due to this. Learning is huge to improvement. If I would have had access to some of the knowledge I have now, as a kid, I would have been a much better player and that goes for anyone.
But I do I think it even goes deeper. An example is the Angels pick at #30 in the draft, Chevy Clarke. He is related to the Hairstons thru his great uncle Sam, who played in the Majors. Scott and Jerry are distant relatives, but the bloodlines are still there. Athletecism comes from genetics, especially fast-twitch players.
http://milbprospects.blogspot.com/
by garrioch13 on Jun 29, 2025 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions
He gets to a solid “gathering” point, controls his weight, drives the front side to the target, and releases well out on that front knee. Looks solid although it’s not what is taught these days. As long as you hit the major points, your fine.
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by 306008 on Jun 28, 2025 10:13 PM EDT reply actions
What I love
about pitchers in the past, is their motions are fluid, almost dance-like. There is a rhythm to it, unlike many modern pitchers who look robotic or stiff. Also, why is it called an inverted W and not an M?
by cookiedabookie on Jun 29, 2025 10:26 AM EDT reply actions
It's not just the W
The forearm turnover and the high-effort nature of his delivery are more problematic.
by OremLK on Jun 29, 2025 10:51 AM EDT reply actions
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