Old Timer: Lefty Grove
Some marvelous video of Lefty Grove, possibly the best southpaw pitcher of all time:
Those mechanics are a thing of beauty...smooth as silk, no wasted motion, no awkwardness.
He was trapped in the minors until age 24 because the Baltimore Orioles of the International League refused to sell his contract to a major league club. He won 300 games anyway. Nowadays, someone like this would likely have been in the majors by age 20 or 21.
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Fun facts:
Grove was 300-141 for his career. How sick of is that? A .680 winning %, the highest amongst 300 game winners.
His career ERA+ of 148 is 2nd all time to Pedro Martinez. Led the league in ERA 9 times.
I wish I knew some Lefty Grove anecdotes. Nothing I’ve read about him makes a character out of him.
by SenorGato on Apr 15, 2025 11:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
asshole + terrible temper
Ty Cobb-ish in his relations with teammates. Today would be comparable to a Randy Johnson type. Legendary temper and competiveness. Stories of him never speaking again to teammates that made errors behind him that cost him games.
Doesn’t detract from him being the greatest lefty pitcher of all time
by ScottAZ on Apr 16, 2025 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fastball
Hard to say since we don’t even have a primitive reading for him, but at the time he was considered to have one of the best fastballs in history, not quite as hard as Walter Johnson or Bob Feller, but among the best in history and probably the best lefty fastball until Koufax. He was probably throwing mid-to-upper-90s on a modern gun.
by John Sickels on Apr 16, 2025 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe Bob Feller threw more than 90 MPH
I mean, I know people have said he did, but I think those claims are bullshit. I’ve never seen even a shred of evidence for it.
Players back then were far, far inferior to today’s players in nutrition, athleticism, etc. I flatly do not believe that they were capable of generating high-90s fastballs.
Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!
by PaulThomas on Apr 16, 2025 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Feller
Well the Army artillery calibration machine that Feller threw through in 1946 clocked him at 98.6 MPH crossing home plate. Best technology test capable of the time. I think you are suffering from “reverse modern bias”…old players never think the new players as as good as the old ones, but sometimes young people don’t give history/the past/old people enough credit for their accomplishments.
by John Sickels on Apr 16, 2025 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Well said John.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Apr 17, 2025 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet he had a strikeout rate that would be, in all honesty, quite embarrassing for a modern pitcher
despite throwing to a bunch of 1930s and 1940s hitters.
If a test had him throwing 98.6 MPH, then I strongly suspect that there must have been something wrong with the test.
Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!
by PaulThomas on Apr 18, 2025 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really relevant
But it doesn’t seem to make sense to compare Feller’s k rate against modern pitchers. The real question is:
How did he perform against others in his era during his peak years?
He simply led the league in k/9 for 5 seasons including 4 seasons in a row before he entered the military. He also led the majors in H/9 3 years in a row. Feller was a beast and the most dominant power arm of his generation and the numbers back this up. In his era, pitchers pitched to contact, and power wasn’t stressed nearly as much. When you have guys not swinging for the fences it is easy to see why pitchers were not striking out batters at today’s rate. It isn’t fair to use today’s standards against a player of a different era.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
by King Billy Royal on Apr 18, 2025 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it
I really don’t think the ability to throw a ball hard has improved all that much. More guys may throw hard, and a bit harder, but if Feller threw 97 or 98 and was hardest, and now we have a few guys that can hit 102 or 3 at the top end, that sounds about right. And batters struck out much less frequently back then.
by wobatus on Apr 18, 2025 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read Bill James at all?
This is attributed 100% to two main things:
1- pacing: pitchers in that era knew they would have to throw a complete game virtually every time out so they paced themselves, bearing down and showing their best stuff only when the situation called for it. Today, when the #8 or #9 hitter is up the pitcher looks for a strikeout, while in those days they pitched to contact to save bullets because they were going to throw 130+ pitches
2- Batters strikeout much more frequently because change of strategy. In those days a strikeout was an embarrasment to a batter and they were often taught to “choke up” with two strikes. Today, with sabermetrics, the idea is an out is an out whether a K or groundout, and batters are told to still swing for the fences even with two strikes
by ScottAZ on Apr 19, 2025 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
here's footage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMPxpOapRuU
I am pretty sure the army machine would be fairly accurate. They had a pretty good idea how fast shells traveled anyway, and could therefor tell if the equipment didn’t work. Maybe it was harder to measure a baseball. Anyway, there’s enough footage where you could likely figure it out just from the footage.
by wobatus on Apr 18, 2025 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point for Paul Thomas's Opinion
That Feller speed is supposedly at the plate, not release. Which would make his release speed about 107. That does seem like a stretch.
I still think Feller could throw about as hard as anyone today. Certainly Nolan Ryan did, and he was throwing that hard over 40 years ago, and only 15 years or so after feller retired. Som hitters faced both guys and said Feller threw harder.
by wobatus on Apr 19, 2025 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lefty
Velocity wise Grove seems to have taken a career path of a hard thrower to a control artist as he aged. He was know for his competiveness, leading to locker room tirades when he lost a game.1929-31 were his peak seasons and he seems to have has a work ethic towards his career that wasn’t that common back then.
by gpellet41 on Apr 16, 2025 6:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
pitching coaches
I watched that video and at the last clip when they showed his motion from behind I thought… “nowadays some moron pitching coach would try to raise his arm slot so he could get on top of his breaking pitches.”
by BoBtheMule on Apr 16, 2025 10:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
the whole idea that there is a cookie cutter delivery that all pitchers must fall under pisses me off. I bet more arms were ruined and careers destroyed by “teaching proper mechanics” to minor leaguers than have ever been saved. I am included in this statistic. I was drafted out of high school, went to a JUCO for a year, had my pitching windup “institutionalized” and my arm was destoyed. They took away something that came natural to me and forced me into the gold standard that every organization preaches.
When I have my own son I will tell those coaches and scouts to eat shit until he sees real money. if he’s lucky enough to get a $100,000+ bonus and they screw him up then that’s their problem
by ScottAZ on Apr 16, 2025 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Totally agree about this.
If you start messing with a pitcher’s mechanics too much, you screw with his muscle memory and (in my opinion) actually INCREASE his risk of injury, at least in the short run.
There are exceptions, but if a pitcher has CONSISTENT mechanics, even if they are less than ideal, if they have been doing it that way for a long time, tinkering too much is asking for trouble.
by John Sickels on Apr 16, 2025 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Looks a lot like Tyson Ross to me. No lower body in his throw whatsoever.
Can’t have been throwing more than mid-80s, if that.
Shawn Spencer: Ahoy there! Um, yes. Right! My name is Shawn Spencer! This is my first mate Hummingbird Saltalamacchia!
Burton Guster: Hello!
Shawn Spencer: We were turned around-- discombobulated! We... we just now realized we're in restricted waters.
Burton Guster: Just now! And we both have hepatitis!
by PaulThomas on Apr 16, 2025 4:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No lower body?
Look at his hips, not his legs. It’s easiest to see in the first two pitches, but he twists his hips so far his butt is facing the batter; by the time he releases, they’ve rotated 180 degrees. This means his arm doesn’t have to move quite as fast relative to his shoulder joint.
His lower body mechanics aren’t like Lincecum’s, a linear lunge at the plate. They’re more like a boxer’s jab or a golf swing.
I don't want to hear any weak sh*t from Jason Grilli.
by cherub_daemon on Apr 18, 2025 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it just me
Or is the bullpen mound he’s throwing off virtually flat ground. I’m not sure if you can even call it a mound. His front foot is hitting ground maybe an inch lower than his plant foot on the rubber. That must have been a huge disadvantage for pitchers. No wonder the 30s was such a hitter’s paradise if that was common.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
by Roger on Apr 18, 2025 1:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I noticed that too.
I was thinking that the low camera height might have has something to do with it, but no matter what, it looks low.
I don't want to hear any weak sh*t from Jason Grilli.
by cherub_daemon on Apr 18, 2025 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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