Discussion Topic: RIck Porcello
I'm travelling today, so here's a discussion topic for you: Rick Porcello.
Jeff Erickson and I discussed Porcello on BlogTalkRadio yesterday. On the positive side, you have to be impressed with a 20 year old pitcher who can jump from the Florida State League to the majors and not get killed. Overall, he's 9-7, 4.36 in 19 starts, with a 55/35 K/BB ratio in 105 innings, 114 hits allowed. That's not great, but he could have done a lot worse than that. On the negative side, his FIP isn't hot at 5.18. His month-to-month consistency hasn't been good. . .he had a great 1.50 ERA in May, but other than that he's been below average every month (6.23 ERA April, 4.60 June, 8.79 July). Even considering his ground ball tendency, hIs strikeout rate is disturbingly low. Still, the fact remains that he IS jumping from the Florida State League, and is keeping his head above water overall considering the circumstances.
His pre-season PECOTA comps are all over the place: The top ten are Roy Halladay, Matt Drews, Jamie Arnold, Sean Burnett, Jon Garland, Mark Eichorn, Don Schulze, Chris Volstad, Joe Fontenot, and Yorman Bazardo. I actually think this is about right: he could turn into a terrific pitcher (Halladay), or a decent inning eater (Garland), or nothing at all. It will be interesting to see what PECOTA makes of him after this season.
As for my opinion, well I'm still not sure what to think. I criticized the Tigers for rushing him to the majors, and I still think it was a high-risk move, though as Jeff pointed out on the radio show, they didn't really have a lot of other internal options going into spring training. In an alternate universe somewhere, he's spent the year in Double-A and has put up strong numbers, and would still rank as a Top Ten pitching prospect. 2009 is the equivalent of his sophomore year at college; if he'd been pitching at North Carolina this spring, he would have been utterly dominant and would be entering 2010 as a Top Five draft candidate. That helps keep things in perspective.
So, what do YOU guys think of Porcello? Future superstar? Decent inning eater? Or does he get hurt or just fade out in some other way? To put a point on the question, if you were the Tigers, would you be looking to lock Porcello up long-term? Or would you wait and see what happens?
0 recs |
30 comments
Comments
Porcello's success
is dependent on the development of his curve. The fastball has the wicked movement and he commands it pretty well, and the change is good enough. He’s had a few games where the curve was working, but he’s had more where he just couldn’t throw it because it’d either be in the dirt or hit for a home run.
The last game he pitched, against the Indians, he seemed to use it a bit more, and he threw it a little harder, and with a lot more success. And supposedly Verlander is helping him out with it, so hopefully that takes.
My gut feeling on the kid (and this is why I didn’t want him dealt for Halladay) is that he’s far enough past the 20-year-old-deer-in-headlights-in-big-leagues point to where he’s ready to make the adjustments he needs to, and by this time next year he should be a beast.
by The Fume on Aug 5, 2025 10:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Certainly wait and see
The lack of strikeouts shows that he was rushed way too soon. We should know by the end of 2011 which way the wind will blow for him — provided he isn’t hurt in the meantime. Leyland (if he stays) has to be careful. His track record at Florida demonstrates that could be a problem.
zzard (Arlington, VA)
by zzard on Aug 5, 2025 10:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Porcello will be good...but great?
I agree with the consensus opinion that he was rushed, but on the flip side I think that what he is doing at the MLB level with only one season of A-ball under his belt is extremely impressive. I mean, the guy is 20 years old, out of high school. The deck is stacked against him but he is already holding his own against AL hitters.
I still think the Tigers should have stashed him in AA for at least half a season at the very least (kind of like the Brian Matusz route), but if he can avoid injuries I have ltitle doubt that Porcello will continue to improve and develop into a very good pitcher. Still not sold on whether he can be a star - the low strikeout rate is the primary issue.
Waiting for April.
by DC Royal on Aug 5, 2025 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lack of an outpitch is a serious problem for him
I predict that he goes the John Garland route— solid but unexciting innings eater.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Aug 5, 2025 1:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
groundball version of Garland
His ceiling if he don’t pick up the K’s is Derek Lowe
by Bravesin07 on Aug 5, 2025 3:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like this
Especially the Lowe comparison. I see him having to have a Kershaw-like development process, so he’ll be frustrating for about a year or two. But Detroit should definitely lock him up.
by demondeaconsbaseball on Aug 5, 2025 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lowe
I as well like the Lowe comparison. Being from the Detroit area I was able to see him pitch a lot this year and with younger pitchers I tend to initially look foremost at their stuff, because the ‘veteran savvy’ or ‘composure’ or whatever related intangibles usually come with experience. Maybe he will be very similar to Lowe (probably a notch better even); I think he will surpass Garland easily. Halladay’s level is going to be tough to reach. Not impossible for him, but I’m not sure even a guy as talented as Porcello will be perennial Cy Young great.
by ChalupaCabrera on Aug 6, 2025 6:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think he can
live up to the Greg Maddux-lite comp I’ve made before.
by slurve on Aug 5, 2025 4:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Never a dominator
But of all this year’s rookie pitchers, he’s got the best chance to be solid. I could see him having a few all-star appearances before It’s said and done and putting up very impressive career #s.
Kanye, you want to be the voice of this generation? Get in line! It goes me, Obamagirl, the Freecreditreport.com guys, then It's a tie between you-and Crocs.
-Stephen Colbert
by Conjunction on Aug 5, 2025 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anderson's up there, he's a tremendous young pitcher
But Porcello’s treading Major league water at 20. That’s a great indicator of future success.
Kanye, you want to be the voice of this generation? Get in line! It goes me, Obamagirl, the Freecreditreport.com guys, then It's a tie between you-and Crocs.
-Stephen Colbert
by Conjunction on Aug 5, 2025 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Anderson's only 21. The ten month difference in their ages is negligible.
He’s putting up a far better K/9 (7.24 to 4.70), better BB/9, and better HR/9. Not just A’s fan bias talking here, but there’s plenty of reason to take Anderson going forward than Porcello.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 6, 2025 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a very strong arguement
You’re really splitting hairs here - Anderson’s .4 better in BB/9 and HR/9. In that small of a sample size between 2 rookie pitchers you’re wasting your time.
by slurve on Aug 6, 2025 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
have you
seen Anderson throw since the beginning of June? 95-97 mph four seamer and throwing the mid-80s slider for strikes at will.
by richieabernathy on Aug 6, 2025 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
treat their respective BB/9 and HR/9 as equal
The gulf in K/9 alone is enough evidence to make an argument for Anderson to be more effective
by jibs on Aug 6, 2025 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's arguments
going both ways - I call it a push at this point
by slurve on Aug 6, 2025 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, you don't feel like actually MAKING the argument for Porcello
just claiming it exists out there in the ether somewhere.
OK.
Linda's in the cold ground, won't see her anymore
Somewhere out on the highway tonight, the drunken engines roar
It's just one of those things, one of those things
-- Al Stewart, "Accident on 3rd St."
In memory of Nick Adenhart and all victims of drunk driving
by PaulThomas on Aug 6, 2025 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've already made
the Porcello argument. If you need a refresher, click on my username and search “Porcello”.
by slurve on Aug 7, 2025 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, not that big of a difference in BB/9 or HR/9.
But the ridiculous difference in K/9 makes all the difference in the world. Also, Anderson’s putting up a 4.00 FIP while Porcello’s at 5.15.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 6, 2025 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ground ball tendency...
Isn’t that a bit of an understatement? He has the lowest rate in the AL, and by a decent margin I might add, at 56.5% (source: Fangraphs). Halladay is 3rd at 51.6%.
I have a difficult time comparing any pitcher to Halladay, but if my two choices are between him and Garland, I’m going with Roy. I think John does a great job putting his age in context.
ProspectTube.com
You Video. You Scout.
by ProspectTube.com on Aug 5, 2025 5:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not Rushed
There are 2 arguments the Porcello was rushed and that he wasn’t rushed. I don’t think Porcello was rushed becasue they are letting him develop against ML hitters which is fine. He has been holding his own with basically a two-seam fastball and curverball thats on and off. Porcello will improve on his curveball and his changeup. Rick can also throw 96 (straight fastball) when he really needs to. I think Porcello will be a superstar by 2011. No one can ever be Roy Halladay but Porcello could be very close or better than Halladay.
by mlefkee2 on Aug 5, 2025 6:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There's something weird with this sentence:
No one can ever be Roy Halladay but Porcello could be very close or better than Halladay.
"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."
by lenscrafters on Aug 6, 2025 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I wish I had an answer to that because I’m tired of answering that question.
—Yogi Berra
by ChalupaCabrera on Aug 6, 2025 6:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay didn't become what he is today
until 2002, at age 25. There were some bumps along the road. A lot — good and bad — can happen between now and 2014. Porcello has only faced 448 MLB batters. For purposes of this discussion, I submit that is a small sample size.
zzard (Arlington, VA)
by zzard on Aug 6, 2025 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Halladay
Halladay is a pitcher of his own kind now a day. No one can complete games like he does because many pitchers are forced to come out once they reach a certain pitch count. Porcello will strike more guys out than Halladay and have about the same groundball tendencies and therefore I think will be slightly better. Johan Santana can never be Roy Halladay nor can any other pitcher
by mlefkee2 on Aug 6, 2025 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Webb?
I’m also a metro-Detroit resident, so I’ve been fortunate enough to see most of Porcello’s starts. The big thing that stands out to me is his composure — there have been very few instances in which he has looked like a 20-year-old. Even when he lost it a bit on national TV the other day against the White Sox, he managed to bounce back and have a decent start.
It will be hard for Porcello to ever become as efficient as Halladay, because Halladay has that devastating cutter, whereas Porcello’s slider is his worst pitch. However, I think Porcello can eventually turn himself into a Brandon Webb-like ace. He won’t get the ridiculous groundball numbers that Webb has because he doesn’t throw a true sinker, but their repertoire is otherwise very similar, and they both suffered from ugly HR/FB% in the early portions of their career. (Webb was between 15-18% in his first 3 years, Porcello leads the Majors at 17.9%).
His 2-seamer is already a plus pitch. He still needs to learn how to swing it back to the inside corner against lefties, but he commands it very well and it has generally been effective. His changeup is also a plus pitch, though it has been pretty inconsistent, which I think is understandable. But his curve, as The Fume mentioned, has been a problem for him. He occasionally flashes a hard breaker that dies at the bottom of the zone, but he generally throws a stalactite curve that gets crushed. It’s to the point that the Tigers moved him back to the slider, which isn’t as good of a pitch, but he commands it better.
If he gets a handle on his change and curve I have no doubt he will eventually post a 7-8 K/9 ratio. The question is, with him already in the Majors and playing a key role in a pennant chase, when will he have the time to refine those pitches?
And one last thing…we all discuss how he was rushed to the Bigs, but I’m not sure if people understand just how rushed he was. I did some research (eyeballs only, so I may have missed someone), and found that in the past three decades, only seven high-school pitchers have thrown fewer than 200 innings before making their major league debut: Josh Beckett (199.1 IP), Brian Bohanon (188 IP), Bret Saberhagen (187 IP), Zach Greinke (180 IP), Todd Van Poppel (170 IP), Jeremy Bonderman (156 IP), and Rick Porcello (125 IP). What’s more, since 1979, only three high-school starters have jumped to the majors without ever throwing a pitch above A-ball. Dwight Gooden did it in 1984, Bonderman made the leap in 2003, and Rick Porcello was the the third.
Under the circumstances, I think his performance has been remarkable.
by ChrisBrown on Aug 6, 2025 10:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Webb? Maybe . . . but certainly with a different career arc
Webb was not rushed. A college pitcher, he arrived in MLB at age 24 after 357 minor league innings, with 177 of those at AA and AAA.
The seven high school pitchers you listed provide an excellent example of the spectrum of possibilities (possitive and negative) for a young guy about to be a junior in college had he gone there. Saberhagen leads with 167 Wins, after a long and notoriously up and down career. Sabes had a breakout year at 21, and then after a lot of early use, he never pitched more than 200 innings in a season after his season at age 25. Beckett (102 Wins so far), a much bigger guy than Sabes, has been plagued off and on with blisters and has started 30 games in a season twice in his career. Bonderman (59 Wins) faces an unceratin future, but there was a day not that long ago when he was talked about in glowing terms. Bohanon and Van Poppel (94 Wins together) represent less than optimum outcomes.
Pitching is a crap shoot.
zzard (Arlington, VA)
by zzard on Aug 7, 2025 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the tigers win the division this year or come to a close second
Iwon’t be too surprsied if they trade him for a reliable veteran like they have a few years in a row. But he is already almost the ace of the staff so it might be unlikely
Carlos Guillen, the Latino Nick Punto
by The_Fan on Aug 7, 2025 10:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I doubt anyone will come back to look at this...
..But tonight (8/18) Tigers fans got a real look at what Porcello can become. He had his best velocity of the year (hit 97 on the gun), his slider was very sharp, and his change was falling off the table. Through five innings he only surrendered one hit, struck out 7 batters, and had a 7/1 GO/AO ratio. He tired a bit in the 6th and hung an 0-2 changeup that Josh Wilson (Josh Wilson!?) deposited over the fence, but Porcello showed all the signs of future dominance….including the strikeout potential.
by ChrisBrown on Aug 18, 2025 11:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs







