Old-Timer: Sandy Koufax

by John Sickels on Apr 20, 2025 2:00 PM EDT Comment 14 comments

I wonder how long Koufax would have lasted nowadays, with the modern concept of pitch counts and workload management.

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Hi John

As somebody who reads but almost never comments on the blog, I just wanted to say that I’ve really been enjoying this Old-Timers series. Thanks!

by D O on Apr 20, 2025 2:09 PM EDT reply actions

I once heard

Jamie Moyer taught him how to pitch.

by another know it all on Apr 20, 2025 2:16 PM EDT reply actions

Well he had to past on what Cy young taught him.

by Ahmed Abukar on Apr 20, 2025 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I wonder how long Koufax would have lasted nowadays

given his early-career struggles and today’s relative impatience with pitchers.

by ThomasG on Apr 20, 2025 2:58 PM EDT reply actions

hard throwing lefties

still tend to get a lot of rope. I wonder if the advances in surgical techniques would have allowed him to pitch a lot longer.

"Dying is no big deal. The least of us will manage that. Living is the trick." - Red Smith

by finman on Apr 20, 2025 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions

This is a bit like one of those questions about whether Abraham Lincoln or Ray Chapman could have been saved by modern doctors given their injuries. To continue the speculation, according to biographical information the condition that knocked him out of the majors at 30 traced to early 1965, with a diagnosis of arthritis. Is that what Dr. Andrews would have called it? Would there have been some kind of surgical option or better treatment option nowadays. Is there any comparable situation to Koufax’s that anyone can recall affecting another pitcher in the modern (post Tommy John) era of sports medicine? I can’t say anything really comes to mind for me that is a remotely similar situation. .

by Dalman on Apr 20, 2025 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Not even Billy Martin could abuse a pitcher's arm like this...

Koufax was a bonus baby and never pitched in the minor leagues. Alston had no faith in him, so he never got consistent work until 1960. Once he turned the corner, Alston abused him. Down the stretch he was throwing complete games on two days rest. Those were usually high stress innings, because the Dodgers offense was shockingly anemic and he was trying to hold a tight lead. One Spring Training, after having some arm problems the season before, they sent him out in his first game & he threw a complete game. They wanted to see if his arm would hold up. Imagine that happening today. Bill James speculates that if he was pitching in this era, he would have had a career similar to Pedro Martinez.

by choo choo coleman on Apr 20, 2025 11:07 PM EDT reply actions

Perhaps the greatest pitcher of all time

I kept his biography in my locker back when I played ball and would read some passages before I ever took the mound. Some of my favorite Koufax minutiae:

- Koufax had such big hands that when he gripped his curveball, his pointer and middle finger were big enough to grip the ball without using his thumb. This gave the pitch tremendous movement.

- Koufax was considered a tremendous hitter. They had scouting reports of the kid, and I think he graded nearly all A’s in the hitting categories. When he wasn’t pitching as an amateur, he played 1st.

- Koufax is probably the most influential Jewish athlete America has seen. Taking of the high holidays was perceived as an act of defiance, but in all honesty, was simply Koufax adhering to his faith. The dude had class.

If Koufax pitched today, there is no doubt in my mind that he would have a. been handled far better, b. been rated as an über prospect, and c. been a superstar in the making. NO ONE has the stretch Koufax had from 63-66. It simply doesn’t happen. Koufax was a once in a generation arm who truly should be held in the pantheon of the greatest pitchers to ever grace the diamond.

You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220

by Mets2k9 on Apr 21, 2025 10:42 AM EDT reply actions

Koufax was a great pitcher for a short time

but is not in the argument for the greatest of all time. As much as I admire and respect Sandy, I see no reason to mythologize him. A few points:

1. Koufax may have been a great athlete (he played basketball in college I think), but he was an atrocious major league hitter. (.097/.145/.116) We are talking among the worst hitters in the history of baseball, including among the worst among pitchers.

2. I cannot remember anyone considering his refusal to pitch on Yom Kippur to be an act of defiance. It was perceived as an affirmation in much the same way that Greenburg’s similar decision 30 years earlier had been. Neither was an observant Jew, so while it may have been an act of faith, it seems to me more an act of identity. And while the hullabaloo over Koufax’s decision was great and the decision apparently momentous and even courageous, I would argue that Greenburg’s was even more significant given the prevailing attitudes of the 1930s.

3. One can argue endlessly about great stretches, but it is absolutely legitimate to argue that both Lefty Grove from 1929-32 and Pedro Martinez from 1997-2000 had better peaks than Koufax did. In fact, if you account for context the achievements of Grove and Martinez seem even more dramatic. (You might check the peaks of Walter Johnson’s career as well.)

In no way do I mean to diminish the greatness of Koufax. And he is certainly a worthy player and person to admire and try to emulate in many ways. His peak, short though it was, deserves all the accolades he receives even accounting for the high mound, large strike zone and his home park. But there is no need to exaggerate.

by bobr on Apr 21, 2025 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions

Some Notes back

1. He was indeed a fantastic athlete. He was a walk on basketball player, and was initially a catcher and a first baseman. Pretty sure that by the time he took the mound, he was more concerned with his pitching ability than his hitting ability.

2. Koufax’s decision coincided with game 1 of the world series. It was a tremendously controversial decision. While Greenburg’s was also a source of dispute, it’s slightly offensive to Koufax’s legacy to simply suggest that because he wasn’t an observant Jew (I doubt one could play baseball, as he would have to take off every Saturday day game and every Friday night game) that his decision was somehow undermined. And don’t think that there wasn’t rampant anti-semitism in the game during the 60s. Granted, the 30s were probably more hostile, but baseball is about as socially backwards a profession as there is.

3. Over that 4 year stretch, Koufax AVERAGED a FIP of 1.98, which is simply otherworldly. Had Koufax’s arm been handled anywhere as carefully as Pedro’s, I doubt that a. Koufax would have retired at the peak of his career, and b. it would have taken him as long to reach his peak. And honestly, comparisons to Walter Johnson seem irrelevant. Johnson’s peak occured in the 1910s, when the league could be led with single digit homeruns. The game in the 60s is strikingly different from the game pre 1930s.

You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220

by Mets2k9 on Apr 21, 2025 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions

I recommend that you go look at Pedro's numbers.

Put into context, I think that 1999-2003 Pedro Martinez may be the greatest pitcher to ever step on a field.

I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy

by Satchel Price on Apr 21, 2025 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions

I fully agree with you. My point was that Koufax belongs in the pantheon of the greatest pitchers of all time

As does Pedro

You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220

by Mets2k9 on Apr 21, 2025 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions

There is nothing remotely offensive

in noting that he was not an observant Jew, nor did I say it “undermined” his decision, whatever that means. I suppose I was nitpicking in that I was distinguishing between a faith based decision and one done for other motives.

I repeat that it is unnecessary to exaggerate his performance and character. He was a great pitcher for a short time but to state in capital letters that no one had a similar stretch of excellence is simply not true. That is a form of idolatry and not very meaningful except to one who wishes to advertise his particular fan love.

As for the other points, he may have been an outstanding athlete and a fine hitter as an amateur, but it is misleading to mention that in regard to his major league career. His hitting as a pro was beyond awful, and your admiration that ranks him among the greats can only consider his performance as a professional.

As I pointed out, it is no disrespect to Koufax to note that other pitchers had comparably great stretches, and my mention of only two in Grove and Pedro (plus a reference to Johnson) is only the tip of the iceberg. If you want to select one particular stat such as FIP then it is pointless to discuss the issue just as I would be foolish to consider only ERA+ or wins or any other one stat. Suffice to say that, in my view, to be among the greatest ever requires more than 4 fabulous seasons. 2 excellent ones and 6 rather mediocre ones. Hypothesizing what might have happened with better medicine or training seems to me presumptuous and certainly equally applicable to any number of other pitchers.

Koufax is in the HOF, a legitimate recognition of his excellence. He is in the pantheon of greatest pitchers of all-time. But I do not see how he can be deemed equal to pitchers such as Walter Johnson, Grove, Alexander, Seaver, Clemens, Maddux, Randy Johnson and others who had significantly longer careers of sustained excellence. Any fan may select a favorite, but hyperbole seems to me to diminish that favorite’s standing among others by making the choice seem irrational.

Oh yes, incidentally it does your argument no good to refer to the nature of the game in different eras. If the game was strikingly different pre-1930 from the 1960s, it is also true that the 1960s had a number of factors that dramatically enhanced pitching statistics. In that sense, the achievements of Grove, Randy Johnson, Pedro and Maddux were even more impressive while those of Koufax pale a bit.

by bobr on Apr 21, 2025 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions

Look how far back he gets his arm.

You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan

by Daniel Berlyn on Apr 21, 2025 8:31 PM EDT reply actions