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Baseball Managers: Tactician or Clubhouse Leader?

More photos » Charlie Neibergall - ASSOCIATED PRESS

Texas Rangers manager Ron Washington (AP Photo/Charlie Neibergall)

A couple of friends and I had an interesting discussion this afternoon regarding baseball managers.

Some managers are excellent in-game tacticians; some are excellent clubhouse leaders and good with people. The best managers have both skills, of course. Most managers are somewhere in the middle.

Let's say you have your choice between two managers. Neither of them are idiots. Neither of them are horrible at anything, but their best strengths are different.  Manager A is a mediocre tactician but an excellent clubhouse leader. Manager B in contrast, is an excellent tactician but a mediocre clubhouse leader.

Who would you rather have? And would it depend on what kind of team you have, a rebuilding club or a contending club?

Poll
Which manager would you pick?

  1022 votes | Results

Tweet Comment 69 comments  |  Add comment  |  0 recs  | 

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I don't believe any manager is an excellent tactician

I’m serious about this. All baseball tactical decisions can be more effectively (far more effectively, actually, within the very limited constraints in which anything other than “who your players are” makes any difference) made by computer than by human. Manager B does not exist.

It gets even worse when you consider how pathologically stupid the actual crop of big-league managers are. Managing is nothing more than a jock’s club with a nice sinecure attached to it.

So my answer is: whichever one costs less money.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 18, 2025 5:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed on managers not being good tacticians.

Everyone seems to make very simple obvious mistakes. Moreover, due to standard reasons, every one is risk averse to some extent when it comes to “radical” moves like using your closer in tie games.

Thus I’ll take A, since I believe he exists.

by garik16 on Oct 18, 2025 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

So wait

you’re saying smart managers don’t exist because everyone makes mistakes?

by CaptainCanuck on Oct 18, 2025 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

ha, you are certainly mr. smart guy

The Ranger's will win the AL pennant by 2013

by blalock84 on Oct 18, 2025 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a lot smarter than the actual people who are currently managing big league teams

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 18, 2025 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

You certainly think you are smarter.

by King Billy Royal on Oct 18, 2025 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

No

I am smarter. Intelligence is not some mythical social construct, it’s a real phenomenon. I’d take significant odds that I would be, if you tested it, better at solving problems and performing tricky analysis than every single manager in major league baseball.

Those guys fucking suck. It’s not even that much that I’m a smart guy (though I am— it’s somewhat pointless to act all aw-shucks about it) as that the “competition” is selected, I think, either explicitly because they’re dumb or at least with total indifference to it. It is clear that MLB GMs have made a choice— unanimously— that Manager A is the guy they want… except that they don’t even require that the guy be rudimentarily aware of tactical reality. “Mediocre” doesn’t even begin to describe it.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 19, 2025 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

This post is one of two...

A.) Tongue in cheek.
B.) Head up ass.

by slurve on Oct 19, 2025 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I sincerely hope it is A. But it sadly seems B.

by haverecords on Oct 19, 2025 5:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even so, the MLB is, as someone hilarious recently put it, a “league full of Mike Singletarys” when it comes to the managers. Almost all of them are rigid thinkers who can’t figure out how to implement basic optimal strategies.

by limozeen on Oct 19, 2025 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

It figures that you and KBR would take the opportunity to just take unprovoked personal shots at me

that being the kind of people you are.

Grow the fuck up.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 19, 2025 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

I don’t know what I said that you find so offensive. I stated:

“you certainly think you are smarter”.

You then stated:

I am smarter.

It seems you actually agree with what I stated. Therefore, I am not sure why you are telling me to “Grow the fuck up” considering that you have no idea ‘what kind of person I am’.

by King Billy Royal on Oct 19, 2025 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your comment had no possible purpose but to piss me off

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 20, 2025 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also

Stop taking things so personally. This is a baseball message board and people don’t need to raise their blood pressure over a few comments.

by King Billy Royal on Oct 19, 2025 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess that

response pretty much rules out choice A. And it’s nothing personal. I would have posted that no matter who’s name appeared at the bottom of that post.

by slurve on Oct 19, 2025 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

So, you're an equal opportunity prick

Well, I guess I knew that already.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 20, 2025 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

So a person who knows they're intelligent has their head up their ass? Really?

When the fuck did being smart turn into a bad thing in this country?

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 20, 2025 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

god

Why does this kind of crap always happen when I step away from the computer for a day?

Everybody settle down.

by John Sickels on Oct 21, 2025 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

How old are you???

The issue right now is a generational gap between baseball analysts and baseball people. These guys (managers) were not brought up reading fangraphs and up to second split info on players, so they don’t use that info. Most of the people on these site and most sites have never managed a team, maybe they even haven’t managed people before, so it makes sense that they disregard the mental drain that comes with managing egos. But all these managers grew up watching baseball, playing baseball and winning and losing games, and they have framed an image of what is needed for them to win, and they do win, and lose, and its all a part of baseball. Some are now starting to implement some statistical analysis into their decision making and that will make them better strategists but thats a slow revolution that will be done when this generation’s players start coaching.
These guys are not dumb, they are just executing under their paradigm. It may seem that they know nothing but if you would have told me that Texas was going to be here at the beginning of the season, I would be buying you drinks right now. Remember how getting Cody Ross the stupidist idea ever, how just getting a lefty releiver before the trade deadline was going to hurt the Giants? Stats only tell a part of the story and if you think you are that smart, you should know this, stats only look at the past.

by Cesar V on Oct 19, 2025 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Don't confuse being lucky

with intelligence

"Baseball is a game played by the dextrous but only understood by the POIN-dextrous"-Professor John I.Q. Neidelbaum Frink, Simpsons

by Blame-everyone-else on Oct 19, 2025 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

What on earth does any of this have to do with managerial tactical acumen?

You’re talking about GMs’ transactions. Everyone agrees that GMs make a big difference in how teams do. If your point is just that people can’t see the future, guess what— we already know that.

Being intelligent is not about clairvoyance, it’s about being able to make educated guesses and be right more often than normal. Baseball managers are right less often than normal.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 19, 2025 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Question

Baseball managers are right less often than normal.

Do you have any data to back this up? I am not saying you are wrong, but I wasn’t aware that any data existed confirming this assertion.

by King Billy Royal on Oct 19, 2025 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure

Look at intentional walk rates in situations where intentional walks are known to be stupid. Look at the rates with which managers pinch-hit for batters with similarly good (or worse) hitters who happen to bat from the opposite side, ignoring the fact that the penalty for pinch-hitting is bigger than the benefit from the platoon advantage. Look at the frequency with which managers bring in their second-best reliever to face the heart of the other order and their best reliever to face the bottom of the other order.

Read the leverage study in Baseball Between the Numbers, and/or the pinch-hitting study in The Book. Then compare it to what you see happen when you watch some baseball games.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 20, 2025 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

What the average person would be capable of

were he/she employed as a tactical manager and given enough time to learn about the game.

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 20, 2025 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I concede to your paradigm argument...

… I certainly do believe that’s more accurate than saying all the managers in MLB are stupid, but there’s another factor here—the insulated nature of the sport. Because former players and “baseball men” are still in the vast majority of positions of power, managers don’t need to learn how to do their jobs better. In many other professions, when a group of employees refuse or fail to evolve, they tend to lose their jobs to younger and better trained/educated people. But MLB has a fairly extreme protectionist attitude towards new knowledge, new approaches and new people.

by MP25 on Oct 20, 2025 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Manager B doesn't exist, but...

…if we assume he does, since that’s the choice the question gives us, I think it depends on what your needs are. If you have a chance of making the postseason, you want the tactician. If your team is terrible and you’re just looking to develop your young talent, you want the clubhouse leader.

But yes, most managers don’t have a clue what they’re doing, even the guys who seem to spend an awfully large amount of time trying to figure out the right thing to do (e.g. Tony LaRussa).

by MP25 on Oct 18, 2025 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree...

as someone who watches Joe Girardi manage everyday I have become a big time fan of the guy and the tactics he employs…IMO the way he uses the Yankee bullpen is what makes them such a strong unit for his Yankees.

That said, he looks as good as he does to me because his team is capable of consistently executing sooooooo……..

I’d take a clubhouse manager type if the team is floundering or young…I was impressed by Jerry Manuel (a coach that I didn’t like beforehand) and his approach and patience with his young players this year. Young guys just need that sometimes IMO.

As the team develops and more pieces come into place, a tactician is probably best…but really it comes down to the players.

by SenorGato on Oct 18, 2025 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Girardi's probably in the upper third among current managers

but then again, managing the Yankees gives a manager fewer opportunities to do SMS*. I mean you can’t exactly order Nick Swisher to lay down a sac bunt in the first inning.

*Stupid Manager Shit

"We don't want our people to be preoccupied with seminude, crazy men jumping up and down who are chasing an inflated object," said Sheik Mohamed Osman Arus, head of operations for the Hizbul Islam insurgent group.

by PaulThomas on Oct 19, 2025 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jerry Manuel

Some managers make so many in-game mistakes, you can’t even begin to try to compare the quantifiable (mistakes in-game. i.e. letting Pedro Feliciano pitch against Matt Diaz.) to the unquantifiable (how Jerry makes Jeff Francoeur feel behind closed doors.)

ain't had enough...

by BlackOps on Oct 19, 2025 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Manager B does not exist."

Davey Johnson. More so if you expand “clubhouse” to include “front office.”

by whichthat on Oct 19, 2025 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather have a manager that can pencil in a good lineup day in, day out

Which is probably a vote for “excellent in clubhouse.” Getting a team to play hard and smart all season is probably better ultimately getting a team into the playoffs.

However, once the playoffs start, I could see where in-game decisions can win a game.

by unspider on Oct 18, 2025 5:23 PM EDT reply actions  

I grew up as a Braves fan in the Bobby Cox era, and that may have a lot to do with my vote. I believe that the qualities of manager A have more of a tendency to dominate in the long-term as the critical tactical decisions even out with luck and the hard play of a motivated team contributes little by little everywhere. Manager B will have more postseason success when he gets there, as the sample size allows those few critical decisions to turn a whole series.

by rlwhite on Oct 18, 2025 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Clubhouse guy

Being able to keep an even-keeled clubhouse over the course of 162+ games a season with a bunch of testosteroned-up alpha males that not only have to share close quarters for months at a time but are also all fighting for their careers, requires much more skill than any in-game management. Like PaulThomas said: baseball is a simple tactical game. Anybody with half a brain can make the moves required at the game level. Very few people can keep players motivated at such a high level over the course of a season. Or multiple seasons.

by ThomasG on Oct 18, 2025 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Depends on the team

If you have a defense/match-ups oriented team like the Cardinals, I’d rather have Tony La Russa. If you have solid-to-good-to-great starters all around like the Phillies, I’d rather have Charlie Manuel.

You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan

by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 18, 2025 5:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Clubhouse guy

I just don’t think tactics in baseball are all that hard. This isn’t football. Putting a lineup together and figuring out matchups just isn’t the hardest thing. Keeping 25 millionaires happy with those decisions is something else entirely. Good clubhouse guys are harder to find, and I think correlate better to success long term.

The tough part about this is it’s easier to see the repercussions of tactical decisions and measure them (bad matchup, wrong bullpen guy, wrong replacement, etc), while it’s near impossible to quantify what a good clubhouse guy brings to the table. How much is it worth keeping Albert Pujols happy? Does he hit less homers when he’s upset about Colby Rasmus? Does Jon Lester perform better when he’s relaxed in the clubhouse, and how much better does he perform? I’m not asking cuz I want to know the answer, I’m asking cuz I think the answer is impossible to determine, making this an entirely subjective question

-1 and only member of the Nick Weglarz fan club!

by Jgaztambide on Oct 18, 2025 5:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Voted B, but it depends on what part of the season

Since the regular season is 162 games long, you would want a Type A to hold the ship together, but for the postseason you want a Type B guy that doesn’t screw things up. I don’t know about this, but I think a good coaching staff might help with the lack of people skills during the season so that’s why I prefer good game calling.
On a side note, I will prefer the manager that plays his best lineup and not the oldest or highest paid players, think Bochy and his situation with Zito and Rowan, the 2 highest paid players on the roster. Obviously the organization must be honest enough to allow the managers to manage the games and their rosters.

by Cesar V on Oct 18, 2025 5:53 PM EDT reply actions  

Depends on if I'm contending or rebuilding

If I have a championship caliber team…. I would want someone who is a better tactician for playoff rotations, pitching changes, lineups etc. There are probably at least a few veterans and I think they can run the clubhouse for the most part. If I’m rebuilding, I definately want more of a leader in the clubhouse. Chances are there are mostly younger players or a new “organizational philosophy”. In that scenario I need someone to implement some sort of plan and lead the way far more than I need him to know which RP to bring in or which lineup might be the best.

by ROBERTS04 on Oct 18, 2025 5:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Clubhouse leader

The difference between a good manager and bad manager (in terms of on field decisions) have minimal effects, so you might as well take a guy the players will respect and deal with Hanley situations properly so it looks good in the media.

Of course, the degree between the two extremes will matter, but generally speaking, I’ll take the leader.

by CaptainCanuck on Oct 18, 2025 6:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

But how much of the perception that managers don’t make of a difference is a consequence of the fact that the range of tactical talent among current MLB managers is artificially constrained? They’re all pretty bad, so of course the “good” ones don’t seem much better than the “bad” ones.

by MP25 on Oct 18, 2025 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not much

What I’m saying is that proper lineup construction and bringing in the best possible reliever vs specific guys won’t make that much of a difference over a season. I’m not really comparing the best manager vs the worst who have jobs currently.

by CaptainCanuck on Oct 18, 2025 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

disagree

Joe Torre cost the Dodgers MANY games this past year because of his mis management of the rotation early in the year(treatment of Jmac for example) and his bullpen use, along with his insistence to favor the vet out of respect instead of giving the prospect a chance to prove himself. I take B

by lakersdodgersyankees4life on Oct 18, 2025 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agree 100%

I was shocked how poor Torre has been the last two years.
Horrible with bullpen, and personally the second he let Manny walk over him it was over there. The haircut debacle was sad.
The NL was too much for Torre at this point. He was the perfect clubhouse manager for the Yanks. He excelled at keeping millionaires happy.

I don't want to play golf. When I hit a ball, I want someone else to go chase it. - Rogers Hornsby

BallKnowledge

by Shutdown on Oct 19, 2025 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Strat vs Reality

Strat-O-Matic is an excellent tool to develop in game managing- the replayer in me values the tactician and am amazed at how much MLB managers miss on tactically-having said that I voted for the clubhouse leader as the human element can far take down a team more than a bad move here and there. A poor tactical manager might lose a few games but a blown out clubhouse can kill a season. Keeping players mentally at a peak is far more valuable than making the right moves and having no respect as those players control the game more than the manager and it will show on the field

by ribman on Oct 18, 2025 7:09 PM EDT reply actions  

This one is easy for me for one reason

Manager A
Terry Francona

Touch em all Joe...

by FisherCat on Oct 18, 2025 8:22 PM EDT reply actions  

I want to say the tactician

But Ozzie Guillen has convinced me that being a clubhouse leader is more important.

Half his White Sox teams had 70-75 win talent, and they’re almost always at .500 or better. They routinely out-perform projections and pythagorean record. And I think a lot of that is Ozzie. He’s a lot smarter than people think (though he’s still tactically pretty bad at everything except using a bullpen), and I have no doubt most of his outbursts and silly media things are orchestrated.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 18, 2025 8:38 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll take whatever Ozzie Guillen is.

R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9

by Dewey Finn on Oct 18, 2025 11:35 PM EDT reply actions  

The clubhouse guy every time

There are guys who are very well versed in the intricacies of the game, or at least better so than most, who because of their personalities can’t get it done.

Don Wakamatsu this year was a prime example in Seattle. Been around the game forever, knows it in and out, but couldn’t keep a volatile clubhouse in check and it resulted in what many thought would be a contender being a disaster.

Ken Macha’s known for being a VERY poor communicator.

On the other hand, take a guy like Art Howe. Not the best in-game guy but his players love him and more often than not perform above their ceilings for him.

by BigJ7489 on Oct 19, 2025 12:35 PM EDT reply actions  

surprised

that no one has mentioned the first example that comes to my mind when talking about “type A”, that being Dusty Baker. What he did with the Reds this year would garner him MofY award nine times out of ten. He gets blasted on this website and the media, but the guy is a winner and is beloved by everyone that plays for him

by ScottAZ on Oct 19, 2025 12:54 PM EDT reply actions  

depends on the team's phrase

Rebuilding team - manager A; Team in contention - manger B.

Your mother.

by birdman on Oct 19, 2025 1:17 PM EDT reply actions  

When it comes to managers, I find that fans pretty much always project their own preferences onto their players.

"We were shit, pathetic," Guillen growled early in spring training. "We hit too many home runs."

by lenscrafters on Oct 19, 2025 2:54 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll take the tactician.

It’s no fun playing for a manager who’s a tactical lunkhead, … unless of course you’re winning every game.

by tgd10 on Oct 19, 2025 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

The thing is, most players (the guys who eventually become managers) have NO IDEA that managers are clueless tactically

But they do have a pretty good idea of who is/isn’t someone they want to play for.

www.zekeishungry.com

by thejd44 on Oct 20, 2025 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see your point to an extent, but I'm not sure I agree.

Right, wrong or otherwise, players can be very opinionated about what they think should be done. Not every player is like that, but I think many are. And apart from pure tactics, the issue of personal playing time is a related issue. So, while there are 9 players on the field at any time, there may be another 5 who think they should be starting and not on the bench. Or maybe they think they should be leading off, and not hitting eighth. To me, that’s also within the meaning of “tactics.”

by tgd10 on Oct 20, 2025 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hire both of them.

What, are we somehow short of money?

by timprov on Oct 20, 2025 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Tactician

I would choose the excellent in-game tactics, mediocre on clubhouse manager every time. A “players” manager who lacks in-game tactics will fail most of the time in my personal experience. This actually crosses over to all sports.

Again, in my experience I’ve seen smart in-game tactic managers win again and again. Was there a breakdown in the clubhouse? No. There are assistant coaches and players who always step up to be team leaders in the clubhouse.

Team chemistry takes more than a clubhouse manager…it takes effort by all the players too.

Jeff Wise
http://www.baseballhittingtipsonline.com

by Baseball Hitting Tips on Oct 21, 2025 10:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Manager A is Cito Gaston.

by siggian on Oct 21, 2025 11:12 AM EDT reply actions  

the idea that a "clubhouse leader"

is pretty archaic if anybody really believes that equates to Ws.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Oct 21, 2025 11:39 AM EDT reply actions  

meant

“the idea of a clubhouse leader is pretty archaic…”

man I hate that you can’t edit here…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Oct 21, 2025 11:40 AM EDT reply actions  

As a Rangers diehard..

I’ve got the ‘A’ manager right now in Wash, and I had the ‘B’ manager in Showalter. Buck was great with medicore talent for a few years. He got the most out of their talent for a short period of time before the team started to tune him out. With Wash, the talent level is much higher, but he also has the team as one huge cohesive unit. The chimestry couldn’t be better (of course you can always say that when you’re winning) and there’s not a player on the roster who wouldn’t run through a wall for him. The team has improved every year since he’s been here, and when he almost got canned a few years ago (would have been had it not been his birthday) the team rallied for him and saved his job. With a manager like Wash, it’s huge to have good coaches around him that help counteract his dificiencies, guys like Jackie Moore, Clint Hurdle, and Mike Maddox.
It was great having Buck here when we had zero pitching and even less defense, but that success was short lived before the players were sick of him. If the players don’t care in the room, why would they in the field? Give me ‘A’ all day.

by Rossome on Oct 21, 2025 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Your comparison isn't apples-to-apples

Would rather have Washington than Showalter if they had the exact same team to work with? I bet If Showalter had the roster to work with that Washington does now, Showalter would have been successful. (Furthermore, winning games would have been the perfect antidote to whatever deficiencies Buck may have in the “warm and fuzzy” areas.) Likewise, if Washington had the roster to work with that Showalter did, Washington wouldn’t have done as well as he is doing now.

by tgd10 on Oct 21, 2025 1:23 PM EDT reply actions  


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