NL Central Part Two
What about the Pirates? How can this organization be turned around? Is there any hope in the short and medium runs?
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56 comments
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No hope
After selling the team, they should act quickly to be the AAA affiliate for the Yankees, so PNC Park can be put to better use. Attendance numbers probably wouldn't drop much...
by e 6 on Sep 18, 2006 12:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
by RollingWave on Sep 18, 2006 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A city that can support the team...
by calig23 on Sep 18, 2006 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates
First things first, buyout Burnitz for $700,000. It's a small price to pay to get rid of him. Let Randa walk also. Those two guys save you $9 million in payroll. Non-tender Chacon, that will save you potential $3-4 million. Look to deal Torres and Marte. They've had good years, but they'll be 37 and 32 respectively by the time the team is ready to compete. Pickup some prospects for them, it's better for the future of the franchise.
Shedding the contracts of Marte and Torres frees up another $5.6 million. Add that to the $12.5 million saved by letting Burnitz, Randa, and Chacon go, you have just over $18 million available. Use this money for contract extensions for Freddy Sanchez, Xaiver Nady, Mike Gonzalez, and John Grabow. Sanchez, Nady, and Gonzalez all get similar contracts, 4 years each and between $12-14 million each. Grabow I'd sign to a 3 year, $5 million deal. He's been effective vs. lefties and I'd keep him for just that kind of job.
Explore the idea of trading Jason Bay. It's kind of an unusual idea, but if you can get a better than average return, make the deal. I'd talk with the Angels about Santana/Wood/Kotchman for Bay. I don't think it's too much to ask for, as the Angels offered Santana and Aybar for a 30 year Miguel Tejada.
Lock up Santana to a 6 year deal, likely worth say $20-24 million total. You buyout his first two years of free agency, and lock him up through the age of 30. He fills out my rotation with Duke, Snell, Gorzelanny, and Maholm. It's a young group, but very talented with tons of potential. Give them the next two years to learn and grow. Keep Victor Santos around in the pen as long man/6th starter. Grabow, Capps, and Gonzalez are the late innings guys starting next year. Give guys like Bayliss, Sharpless, Vogelsong, Burnett, Bullington, and McLeary shots at the last three spots in the pen. Give Lincoln the next year to two years in the minors, with the idea of him taking over the closers role in 2009 or 2010.
With Bay, Randa, and Burnitz gone there are some spots open in the lineup. Paulino and Doumit share the catching duties, with Paulino getting 80% of the playing time. Kotchman takes 1B and it's his job. He'll give you Gold Glove defense, and a 280/350/470 line for the next few years. Castillo sticks at 2B for now, with Wilson at short and Sanchez at 3B. By 2008, if not midseason next year, Wood should be ready, probably at 3B. I'd move Sanchez to 2B at that point. There is quite a bit of INF talent in the minors. Stansberry, Lillibridge, and Walker(C or 3B) provide some options to go with the above mentioned guys. It shouldn't be too hard to find 5 guys to fit at these positions.
Nady replaces Bay in LF, and I'd let Gerut(vs. RHP) and Bautista(vs. LHP) platoon in RF. Unfortunately, both Chris Duffy and Nate McLouth struggle vs. RHP. I'd let them battle it out for CF, with loser staying on the bench. The prize of the Pirates farm system, Andrew McCutchen, will be manning CF by mid 2008 or the beginning of 2009. He's a guy that is worth waiting for, and will be a big star.
The bench for next year would look like this: McLouth/Duffy, Bautista, Doumit, Brad Eldred, and a UTL type. The UTL type isn't of great import, as Castillo will likely be on the bench by mid season with Wood up and starting. There is a lot of young talent in this organization, it just needs time to grow. To help facilitate this, I'd fire Jim Tracy. He's a guy who prefers veteran players, and I don't want the youngsters getting yanked around by him. I'd honestly bring in a guy like Tony Pena for a second shot as a big league manager. He did well with a similar type franchise in KC, and he could be the right guy here.
by gatling on Sep 18, 2006 1:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Brad Lincoln
I really hope you intend that as only a temporary role for Lincoln. If they wasted Lincoln by using him as a "closer," I think I'd just give up as a fan.
by calig23 on Sep 18, 2006 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice ideas but,
by Metty5 on Sep 19, 2006 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Santana
The team takes the risk here. He could blow out his arm in spring training and they'd owe him $20+ million. It's something a lot small market teams do, and something the Pirates have done themselves. Look at Jason Bay's deal for an example.
by gatling on Sep 19, 2006 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team is pathetic
by psugator01 on Sep 18, 2006 3:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pirates
by circle360 on Sep 18, 2006 3:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gotta Have a Product to Get Fan Support
First off all, fixing this team is like creating middle east peace. There's not a lot to work with and it's hard to tell what the people in charge really want. I say no FA signings in the next two years...none. Even if they went out and paid for the best of what is available, they are not going to become a winning team anytime soon...
So, now that the bad news is out of the way - let's look at some good news. I've been really impressed with Ian Snell this year. He's got good K numbers - and when I watch him, he shows three plus pitches (in my opinion). He's still learning how pitch, but I expect big time improvements next year and/or the year after. He looks like a solid #2. Also, after looking terrible for most of the first half, Z. Duke is starting to look a lot better. He reminds me a little of Noah Lowry, and I think he has the potential of a pretty decent #3. I haven't watched enough of Gorz to make a conclusion about him, but I don't think Maholm is going to be anything more than a #5. Without seeing anything I hope Gorz can be a #4...and that 4/5 of a decent young rotation. Not bad...I would lock those guys up as best I can, and wait a year to determine what is going to happen with Lincoln. My hope is that he develops into a stud starter or a stud closer...and will be a valuable part of the team. If not...maybe he can at least be a back end of the rotation or long relief type. In that case, I'd go shopping for a stud FA pitcher for the top of the rotation - assuming everyone else progresses - pitching should be pretty good.
The offense is much worse. I'd lock Nady up long term at 1B because he's cheap, plays good defense, and isn't a liability as a hitter. I'd move Sanchez to 2B, I don't think he hits with enough power for 3B, but will be above average at 2B. I don't mind Jack Wilson too much as a longterm SS. He too plays pretty good D and isn't a huge liability on offense. I like Paulino long term as the C, so that makes me wonder if Neil Walker can play 3rd. If so, I'd make that move and hope he hits enough to make it worthwhile. McCutchen looks like the answer in CF, I'd continue to challenge him and use a warm body until he's ready. Bay is obviously a lock in one corner, so that leaves on more big time FA addition, when the time is right, to take over right. So just to recap...
SP:
1 FA Signing
2 Snell
3 Duke
4 Gorz
5 Maholm
Lineup
C Paulino
1B Nady
2B Sanchez
SS Wilson
3B Walker
OF Bay
OF McCutchen
OF FA Signing
And...lots of prayer. This would be my plan for approximately 2 years from now, if no one gets completely messed up. I'd put the disappointing SP prospects in the pen...ie Bullington, JVB, etc. And, I would not open up the free agent purse until all the pieces were in place to compete. Obviously, increased spending on draft/development would help as well...
by Dfarth on Sep 18, 2006 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh I should say
by Dfarth on Sep 18, 2006 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Locking up Gonzalez would be silly.
by calig23 on Sep 18, 2006 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're going too far the other way
If you're gonna trade anyone, trade Torres.
by limozeen on Sep 19, 2006 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Priorities...
by calig23 on Sep 19, 2006 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoa...wait...WHAT?
24 saves, 0 blown saves, 2.17 ERA, 42 hits and 64 K in 52 IP, 1 homer allowed. His only weakness is his walk rate, but it hasn't hurt him.
Gonzalez is absolutely a great closer.
by fyug on Sep 19, 2006 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I should have said not a great fit or something like that. Gonzalez is probably one of the top fifteen or twenty relievers in baseball.
by limozeen on Sep 20, 2006 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You Make a Good Point
by Dfarth on Sep 19, 2006 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too much credit to Pitt fans
95, 98 and 96 wins. The drew 2.05, 2.07 and 1.83 million those years, for an average of 25,308, 24,587 and 22,585, which were 6th, 8th, and 7th out of 12 NL teams.
In 1992, Philly had more bodies through the gates than Pittsburgh did, when Philly came in dead last in the division at 70-92.
Anything short of hiring Bill Cowher as the manager, I just don't see fans coming to see games in Pittsburgh.
by e 6 on Sep 18, 2006 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Remember when...
Now the GIants are having a down year, attendance wise, and will have 3million in attendance, and be 7th.
What's interesting is that PITT is actually 5th in road attendance. I guess partly because they're not home when they're on the road.
by kings33 on Sep 18, 2006 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why keep so many...
15th in NL in Runs scored
13th in OBP
15th in HR
15th in TB
16th in OPS
16th in SLG
530AB's to leadoff hitters who get on base less than 30% of the time (Duffy/McLouth)
BAy, Sanchez and Paulino are the only ones at this point showing anything above replacement value with any number of AAAA guys stuck out there. You may want to give a Doumit or Duffy a little more time, but that leave FOUR completely wasted starting lineup spots every day.
Jack Wilson has to go... I don't care how slick a fielder he is, he's unproductive with the stick. His tenure with the Bucs is a shining example of everything wrong with this franchise... unwavering loyalty to mediocrity. Get a castoff from the Dodgers (Betemit, Lugo, etc) Any number of guys will contribute more offensively and provide an adequate glove.
So many young pitchers... who knows who will work out and who will flame out, but the consensus seems to be there's some talent there - including some other teams would like to have. You're never going to keep them all, so it's time to fish or cut bait... Pick the ones you believe in and give them opportunity... Tout the rest and move them along for bats and minor league bats.
Maholm, Duke and Snell are your current mainstays in the rotation... no point in getting a number 1 right away, so a veteran #3-4 will do. Then Gorzellany as #5
Burnett's your soft tossing LOOGY. Gonzalez, Sharpless and Capps fill out the pen.
This team can get turned around, but they need to do more on offense... last 2 stats - 15th in BB's and 5th most strikeouts... bad combination
by kings33 on Sep 18, 2006 4:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Nattering Nabobs
They've got two stars in the making in Bay and Sanchez, a decent lead-off guy in Duffy, and some pop from Nady. Their pitching is young, but full of promise. Gorzo looks like he's on the cusp of a break-through, and I like Maholm and Snell as well. They need to add some veterans who know how to pitch (more than just innings eaters) and can take some pressure off the young guys. Ideally, you'd get one from free agency and one via trade. The Pirates have to decide whether they think Duffy's the answer in CF, or whether to give McClouth a chance. Personally, I'd prefer Duffy because of his defense, but either should bring something decent back. Chacon's the dilemma, personally I think he'll be fine as a #2 but that's a tough call. I would also move Duke for the right price.
I also like the back-end of their bullpen, with Gonzalez, Capps, and Torres (although I agree with a previous poster that they should consider moving Torres).
It all depends on money. If they can spend the money to bring on one frontline pitcher and some offense to replace J Wilson at short, I tihnk they have the beginnings of a team. And it's not as if the NL Central is the AL East, so if (and I realize it's a big IF) the Pirates young pitching performs up to potential, I like their chances to surprise some people.
by Yakker on Sep 18, 2006 5:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chacon is terrible
by calig23 on Sep 18, 2006 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chacon
As for Duffy, I agree there are questions about his offense. But I wouldn't count his bat out just yet. He only has to hit well enough to justify his CF defense, which is excellent.
by Yakker on Sep 19, 2006 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chacon and "innings eating"
He's Kip Wells without the two good seasons.
by calig23 on Sep 19, 2006 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Chacon is your #2
by rfloh on Sep 21, 2006 7:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, Chacon is #2 all right...
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2006 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chacon
I still do stand by the point of my original post, though. I mean, come on! People are talking about the Pirates as someone's farm team? This is an organization with a tremendous history. Not to mention some great young arms (mostly left-handed, to boot) and a star corner outfielder.
IF (and I know it's a big IF) they can spend some money this offseason and next (remember, the Tigers started their "rebuild" a few years ago when they signed Pudge and ran Bondy out there over and over to get his stripes), I think the Pirates have the core of a division-winning team (as long as Selig doesn't move them out of the NL Central).
by Yakker on Sep 21, 2006 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm...
Keep Chacon if they want, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, but seeing the pitching market next year you might as well keep him for his price tag, he wasn't really as good as last year but he really isn't a crappy as he has been this year. But obviously keep the possibility of trading him open if the deal is right. I think at his price tag if he puts up a decent early season you can get a steal for him.
I think to contend next year is unrealistic, they need to figure out their lineup. right now they have 3 to 4 guys that are good enough.. that's a loooong way from ready.
See if you can trade anything for Elijah Dukes, look for teams with excess players ... particularly for OF / 1B ... Wilson at SS is passable unless there are siginicantly better options that comes cheap (which is unlikely at best) carrying a bad bat in SS is far less damaging than a bad one in the outfield.
I suppose... if you could somehow get Dukes, then sign a decent 2B (Which shouldn't be too expensive... let's say Mark Loretta)
Dukes RF
Loretta 2B
Sanchez 3B
Bay LF
Nady 1B
Paulino C
Duffy CF
Wilson SS
something along this line should at least be passable... aka better than what the Astros or Cubs probably will throw out there.
pitching staff mostly just bring back what you have this year and try to work things out, trade Chacon if the opportunity arise before or during the season.
this should at least get them on the right direction..
by RollingWave on Sep 18, 2006 10:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Smoltz?
He's old and probably only a year or two away from retirement, but I think he'd be the right kind of #1 for the team. Even when he's on the DL, he's helping the team by mentoring the kids. I think you could probably even overpay a little.
Now, who knows if Smoltzie would want to go to Pittsburgh? He's from Michigan, so it's sorta closer to his roots, although I believe he lives in Atlanta full-time now. But if you sell it as a Pudge-style revival contract (remember how crazy everyone thought he was for signing in Detroit?), I think it might have potential. And Smoltz has made numerous statements about wanting to get involved in politics after he's done playing. He's probably a better candidate in the South than in the Midwest, but Pennsylvania is a very important political state.
Probably not going to happen, but just a thought.
by Yakker on Sep 19, 2006 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dukes? LOL
by psugator01 on Sep 19, 2006 8:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Right, because the D-Rays are so awesome...
by fyug on Sep 19, 2006 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pirate fan here:
The defense sucks, and that's a big problem behind a developing young rotation (particularly one leaning on a BIP guy like Maholm). As such, the first order of business is pushing Jose Castillo (the worst glove on the team - seriously, like a -20 defender at 2B) out of town, moving Sanchez to 2B, and handing Bautista the 3B job. Paulino and Gonzalez also get shopped, as both are redundant players on the roster with reasonably high trade value. Doumit is the catcher (add a strong/cheap FA backup), and either Capps or Torres closes.
Pick up one or two outfielders in free agency, at least one of which is a mid-to-cheap guy, preferrably emphasizing OBP and/or corner defense (Cruz, Dellucci, Ledee, Payton, etc.). Look hard at Mike Cameron as a CF, otherwise go with Duffy and hope he can handle .280/.320/.380 at the bottom of the order.
Listen to offers on Bay, but don't go chasing a deal for at least another year yet. Start pumping money into above-slot draft picks and Latin signings.
by Vlad on Sep 19, 2006 1:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and also...
by Vlad on Sep 19, 2006 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couple of questions
Did you choose Doumit over Paulino based solely on his ceiling? Or is he better behind the plate than Paulino?
by gatling on Sep 19, 2006 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paulino
Unless you wanted Tracy to go along with the Littlefield/front office purge.
by Yakker on Sep 19, 2006 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it were me
by gatling on Sep 19, 2006 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tracy
And I'm with you on Paulino. From the outside (I've probably only watched about 10-15 Pirates games this yeaR), he looks like he handles the pitchers pretty well. I'd sacrifice a little offense to get that.
by Yakker on Sep 19, 2006 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tracy (ick!)
All the current studies seem to indicate that a catcher's game-calling ability has a relatively limited effect on the game (if any), and how often does somebody like Snell listen to suggestions in that area anyway? I think Doumit's rep in that area is unfairly dinged by the young starters' growing pains at the beginning of the year. There was a stretch of maybe two weeks where basically every starter fell apart simultaneously, and I don't think anything short of divine intervention could've done much about it.
When I say "solid backup" in my earlier post, I'm talking about someone on the Pratt/Stinnett/Zaun level. Just for reference.
by Vlad on Sep 20, 2006 6:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ollie
I may be mis-remembering, but I think that might be where at least I'm getting it from. That, and Jim Tracy's incessant praise of Ronnie.
BTW, to me, I'd separate game-calling from general handling of pitchers. I think you're right on strict calling of pitches--a lot of that comes from dugouts anyway these days. But handling a pitcher is more than that, it's the trips to the mound, it's stealing strikes just off the plate, stuff like that. Tough to quantify, but that doesn't mean it's not there.
by Yakker on Sep 20, 2006 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sort of.
Doumit never caught Perez this year.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2006 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cota
Although judging a catcher by Ollie's sporadic pitching is kinda harsh, even for me! :-)
Bottom line, the Pirates have some decent pieces to offer in a trade. They just have to make some decisions this winter, and they're not easy decisions. Duffy or McClouth? Paulino or Doumit? Torres or Gonzalez (or neither)? What they shouldn't do (in my book) is more of the same. Splitting time, spring training tryouts, platoons, etc. Inactivity here is worse than a bad decision.
by Yakker on Sep 21, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duffy and Nate
A good backup plan in center is a real must, though, since even the best-case scenario with Duffy has him around .280/.330/.380 for the year.
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2006 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paulino vs. Doumit
Doumit has a lot more offensive upside, since he turns on balls and drives them, instead of just slapping at them. He's actually got a higher SLG than Paulino right now, even though Paulino has a hundred-point edge in BA, and his minor league track record is positive enough that I'd be willing to trust him with the job if I had a decent backup (mostly due to the injury concerns). I don't know how much stock you put in PrOPS, but Doumit's component ratios indicate that he's been very unlucky this year, and has actually been hitting the ball better than Paulino has.
Defensively, I think it's a wash, or at least close to it. Both of 'em need some work on a few areas, but both have good enough tools to make a go of it. I know Paulino has this great defensive rep, but his problems with balls in the dirt make me absolutely crazy. I've been to about 20 games this year, and I haven't seen Paulino start even one game where he didn't let a catchable/blockable ball get past him, either through the legs or past the shoulder. Much too often, he stabs at those balls with his glove, instead of shifting his body behind them.
Even in the worst-case scenario, you've got Walker ready for the position in two years, anyway. I'm willing to roll the dice a bit if it means an upgrade at another position.
by Vlad on Sep 20, 2006 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bautista
by Vlad on Sep 20, 2006 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP
by prhood on Sep 19, 2006 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They're both flawed defensively
by fyug on Sep 19, 2006 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My moves.
Then I would look to stabilize the rotation with a nice RH arm. My pick would be Adam Eaton. He might be a bit cheap and can still be a decent starter in this league. a Schmidt would be nice, but it is unrealistic to think that the pirates would be able to outbid the big spenders to get him. the only other option I would consider is if they can get Jose Hernandez for cheap.
that is it really the only moves that they can realisticly make - If they play like they have played the second half of the year and take on the additions that I have suggested they should be competitive, possibly breaking their 14 year streak of losing seasons.
by rutkap on Sep 19, 2006 8:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One last thing.
by rutkap on Sep 19, 2006 8:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Starters.
I think a solid mid-rotation starter could do wonders for this team, and I like both Eaton and Ohka as possibilities. I'd also think about Ted Lilly, Gil Meche, Jeff Suppan, and Vicente Padilla, and I'd be VERY interested in the medical reports on John Thomson, Randy Wolf and Wade Miller.
Kim would also be on the list, if the Rockies decline his option (which seems unlikely).
by Vlad on Sep 20, 2006 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ted the Tease
by Yakker on Sep 20, 2006 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chacon and stuff
and more importantly, looking at the current pitching market. your not going to get any even half decent pitching for under 4M a year. might as well keep Chacon.
If he strings together a good year, he'll also be a very useful trade bait during the season.
If not, you still don't lose much.
As for Elijah Dukes, I would be shocked if TB doesn't move him or Rocco Bodelli this winter, Dukes seems the more likely of the two to be moved. and they were sounding so down on him they were already floating him around the block before the dealine anyway. I think he'll end up somewhere else next year, if the Pirates could put together a good deal for him, do it.
by RollingWave on Sep 20, 2006 11:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Your logic does not resemble our earth logic.
Chacon is not a bad pitcher because of his contract situation. Chacon is a bad pitcher because of his inadequate stuff and piss-poor control.
Given that this is the case, why would you pay him $3-3.5M when you could:
a) Get a decent pitcher for a little more?
b) Get a pitcher of equivalent quality (i.e. poor) for a lot less?
It's true that he would acquire more trade value if he improved his level of performance, but the same could be said of any other pitcher (many of whom are better than Chacon).
by Vlad on Sep 21, 2006 11:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs














