Shake On It: Trade Deadline Discussion Thread

True

Philly got royally screwed on the Abreau deal, despite the payroll relief they received.

Question: If you were Colorado, would you rather have John Grabow or Jeremy Affeldt in return for Ryan Shealy?

by eazyb81 on Jul 31, 2006 10:11 AM EDT reply actions

After watching Affeldt the last few seasons, I really question this guy...he has to be the mnost frustrating Royal(behind Berroa and Sweeney) the guy just looks awesome when he throws in the pen, but can't translate it to big league success. I would be ecsatic to get Shealy for him. Hell, I'd be ecstatic to get Jack Cust or Graham Koonce for Affeldt

by gashousegang on Jul 31, 2006 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions

False

They were not willing to take back some of the contract, they couldn't expect to get a high return for Abreu without picking up some of that money. Now they can use that money they save on Abreu and rebuild. They got what they wanted, they rid themselves of Abreu's huge contract.

by TheMike011 on Jul 31, 2006 10:17 AM EDT reply actions

True

It wasn't realistic to expect NY to take on all of his salary and give up top prospects in return. However, I think Philly should have taken on some of his salary if they could increase the talent they received.

by eazyb81 on Jul 31, 2006 10:22 AM EDT reply actions

Yeah, but

by taking on that additional salary, you're just paying more for propsects. Say they had their heart set on Philip Hughes, which was the name you kept hearing out of Philly. They offer to pick up 3-5 mill over the next 2 years so the Yanks would include Hughes. I don't know what Hughes contract is now, but being a relatively high draft pick, I imagine it's a decent amount.

When it's all said and done, you have to pay Hughes and attach that 3-5 mill to him as if it were his salary since you in effect "paid" the Yanks to include him in the deal. He's a good prospect - that's a lot of money to pay to an unproven guy. I'd rather use that 3-5 mil extra on proven talent.

IF they are busy team this off-season, fans in Philly may be asking "Bobby who" in a year from now. If they aren't very active this off-season, the Phils organization didn't screwed, but rather their fans will have been since it would then prove to be nothing more than a $ grab.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions

i don't think that's right

someone else might know better but i don't think guys like hughes get much more than other prospects unless they sign major league contracts. i thought all rookies were relatively cheap...

more importantly...they traded for another 1st round draft pick in CJ Henry...since he's a first round draft pick from last year and Hughes from two years ago - my guess is their costs are probably about the same...

by Dfarth on Jul 31, 2006 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Even so...

is spending 5 mil to get Hughes in town smart finacially? Humbers contract was worth about 2 mil - 1.4 of that was bonus. Thats'a lot of money for someone that won't even be arbitration eligible for about 7 years

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions

should read

"Hughes" not "Humber's"

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Bonus money would be the only difference

And the Yankees alreay paid that. ML players get paid a standard amount depending on what level they are at. Hughes is no exception. Last I read the wage scale is something like this:

Rookie and Short season 900$ a month
Low A ball 1000$ a month
High A ball 1200$ a month
AA is 1850$ a month
AAA is 2850$ per month.

by aaronb on Jul 31, 2006 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions

well

after rereading your post i think i missed the point a little bit...but

if the phillies could have thrown in $3 mil to get Hughes i'm amazed they didn't do it...

by Dfarth on Jul 31, 2006 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions

No, I don't think I misread

He was saying to offer to pick up some Abreu's contract so the Yanks would throw in prospects. When all is said and done, you're paying millions of dollars for propects.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions

I said that I misread

by Dfarth on Jul 31, 2006 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions

I see.

Alright then. I agree 3 mil to get Hughes in town, maybe. Who knows tho.. the Yanks may not have been willing to play along and wanted substantially more than that.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions

False

Abreu's not the same player as his power outage started from second half 05.

To get that much money off your books is huge no matter how you look at it.

by yoda1 on Jul 31, 2006 10:26 AM EDT reply actions

Like Lowell?

Players rarely completely fall off the table power-wise. Abreu has had two "bad" half seasons power wise (he is still on pace for 35-40 doubles), but otherwise his career numbers indicate this is just a fluke.

Look at Lowell, everyone thought he was done. He just needed a change of scenery

by deltabourne on Jul 31, 2006 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions

May the newly traded shine on that crazy diamond.

RIP Syd Barrett.

Michael Barrett ain't going nowhere.

by asinwreck on Jul 31, 2006 10:42 AM EDT reply actions

Not Screwed & Tigers get Casey for zippy

If they wanted to dump salary, it's hard to say they got screwed. I personally thought that there were better "offers" reported, but who knows what is true and what's not.

Sean Casey to the Tigs for a AA pitcher. Brian Rogers (24/R) At the very least, a nice LH bat off the bench.

by fredo on Jul 31, 2006 10:46 AM EDT reply actions

screwed

Guys, you can't act like they saved $15 million/yr or whatever it is. Given that Abreu is only 32 and potentially could have been part of their next winning team... what the Phils actually gain is the amount by which he was overpaid for his services. I dunno how much he's "really" worth -- that largely depends on whether his loss of power is permanent -- but I'd estimate his real worth at something like $8-10M/yr, so they're gaining something like $5M/yr. It's not $15M/yr, since the man was not producing nothing at all.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Jul 31, 2006 10:50 AM EDT reply actions

OUTSTANDING POINT

In Billy We Trust

by I Love Oakland As on Jul 31, 2006 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions

yep

I'm not so sure Abreu even with the power dropoff isn't worth close to $15 million anyway. He's always on base and steals a lot of bases for you. He's still pretty young and hasn't been under 20 homers since '98. Wouldn't be surprised to see him hit several big homers for the Yankees and end up being a great pickup for the Yanks. If you're not getting anything in return then you might as well keep him. It's not like he was a crummy player who needed replacing or over the hill. I think it's a very bad move. What are the Phils going to do with that extra money? Probably use it to either overspend on a free agent this offseason or make higher profits next year.

by eastin on Jul 31, 2006 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions

Re:

"What are the Phils going to do with that extra money? Probably use it to either overspend on a free agent this offseason or make higher profits next year."

Exactly. The whole "saving money" excuse is preposterous, their team needed to get some young talent in return for Abreau and they dropped the ball.

by eazyb81 on Jul 31, 2006 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions

Well

He is an average fielder. He is not hitting for power and you probably don't want to bank 30+ SBs given his age.

I don't think this was a bad deal based on the amount of money they saved to use during the off season. You need to reserve judgement until 2007 season. Clearly Abreu was not part of the future given his salary and they unloaded a guy who seems to be in a decline. Plus they got a couple of interesting prospects back.

by yoda1 on Jul 31, 2006 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions

People are really underestimating Abreus value

The guy has hit pretty much every year of his career 100 runs, 100 rbis 20+ hr and 30+ sb, and batted .300 and most importantly over a .400 career OBP.

if i told u a guy was a early 30's career .300/.400/.500 who has had at least 20 hr, 30 sb 100 rbis and 100 runs since 99 (not quite as true with rbis as is with runs), how much would u pay for that guy? Damon got 13 mil a year and doesnt have anywhere near that kind of production. Lance Berkman is making 14.5 mil per year, and he hasnt been as consistently productive as Abreu? I really dont think abreu is vastly overpaid if overpaid at all for his services.

"You also must admit, that outside of the facts, I made a compelling argument!"

by jbluestone on Jul 31, 2006 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not

questioning his value a baseball player, I don't think anyone has. The question is, will he be worth 16 mil next year? 18 mil the year after? The Phils are betting that they can more efficiently spend that money over the next 2 years. It's gonna be a while before we can all see how this trade worked out.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions

re: 18 mil

The Phils are not obligated to pickup the $18 mil option. You're just manipulating facts into half truths now by presenting partial information.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." - Henny Youngman

by TINSTAAPP on Jul 31, 2006 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not

manipulating anything. It's a simple question, will he be worth 18 mil in 2008? If they were to go the other way and keep him, he would essentially cost them 18 mil next year, because they would automatically be on the hook to pay him 2 mil to buy out of the 18 mil option for 2008 if they decided not to pick it up. Would he be worth 18 mil next year? If he declines at the rate most players do, he would not be worth 18 mil to keep around for 2008 IMO. The Phils decided to pull the plug now.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions

seriously

seriously, you're not even worth the keystrokes.

yesterday within different paragraphs of the same post you simulataneously state a.) that you were honestly asking if Podsednik was an all-star last year and b.) that Podsednik was only an all-star due to a button/t-shirt/media campaign. Either you didn't know he was an all-star or you wouldn't be aware of all the minutiae of how he became an all-star. It can't be both.

But you contradict yourself all the time. You actually may be the only poster I've ever seen straw man himself. You'll review your old post and just take the part that supports your new argument and ignore the rest of the crap. Alot of people do this to others posts. I've really never seen anyone so consistently do it for their own. I guess your unique. That's something.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." - Henny Youngman

by TINSTAAPP on Jul 31, 2006 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions

No, no and no?

If, I'm not worth the keystrokes, then don't make them. There. That was simple.

Believe me I know full well that Podsednick was an All-star last year. The "are you serious?" part was me asking natsfan if he was serious about using that as support to what he was trying to say, because Pods team bought his way onto the team with the "elect Pods" campaign they launched last year. I pointed that out a few posts later. Whose using partial truths here now?

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Good Point

Also, why do people talk about Bobby Abreu's power drop like he was Brian Giles? Now there's someone whose power numbers plummeted after his age 31 season. It couldn't have all been due to PETCO.

They're similar players in terms of walking a ton and overall reliability, but Giles is, or was, the true slugger of the two. It's kind of a disservice to Abreu to think that he ever had 40 HR power.

by sasquatch83 on Jul 31, 2006 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions

I disagree

The Phils are spending 23-24 mil less over the next 2 years. That's what the ledger will show - you can't twist it into something it's not. While Abreu is a tremendous player, the fact of the matter is that he is in decline. Position players peak around age 27-28. Abreu may have a sharp dropoff, he may not. The Phils decided this was the right time to capitalize on his current value before it was totally obvious.

I see what you're saying Dean, but that arguement is highly subjective and can turn into semantics when you start trying to figure in other things. What if the Abreu's replacement plays at a high level - actually outperforming what he is getting paid? It may not be what Abreu gives you, but if it's reasonably close at a 10th of the cost... well then you can start the arguement that moving Abreu actually saves you money in addition to what the ledger shows.

We also don't know what was said behind closed doors. Abreu reportedly had become dis-interested and/or wanted to win now. No sense in keeping a guy that didn't necessarily want to be there.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions

wrong

Abreu is owed about $5M this year and his contract next year is about $13 or so. That's way less then $23-24M.

by sabernar on Jul 31, 2006 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions

You stand corrected

From the BA article on the Abreu trade:

"Though the Yankees farm system is improving, this trade was all about money. New York will absorb the remainder of Abreu's contract ($13 million salary in 2006, $15 million in 2007 and either $16 million or a $2 million buyout in 2008) and the rest of Lidle's $3.3 million salary for this season. Because the Yankees took on roughly $23 million in financial commitments, they didn't have to part with any of their best prospects. Smith is the only player Philadelphia received who's playing above low Class A. Henry, who has the best pedigree of the group as a first-round pick in 2005, has struggled mightily in his first full season."

Here's the rest...

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/news/262077.html

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Angelos...

...is a horse's <blank>.

I don't even really know what the deal was, but Astros and O's had agreed to a deal for several hours, only to have Angelos step in as the documents were being finalized to be sent to the NY office.

No wonder he's considered the worst owner in baseball.

The man lacks integrity.

by FredUD on Jul 31, 2006 11:00 AM EDT reply actions

source?

In Billy We Trust

by I Love Oakland As on Jul 31, 2006 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions

Astros Broadcast Crew

Who certainly have the access and connections, stated it after the Sunday game and was told by Drayton in masked words that this is what happened. I remember it went something like this:

"Drayton to me before the game that a deal was done on Saturday for about 2 hours with a certain East coast team that has trouble making decisions."

There was some discussion back and forth, but the guy who said that would not say it was the Orioles becuase he promised he wouldn't say the teams name. The other guy in the discussion said "He can't say it, so I will. It was the Orioles."

by FredUD on Jul 31, 2006 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions

didn't hear that

But a reporter on WFAN just said that Angelos turned down Ervin Santana and Erick Aybar for Tejada. The reporter felt Angelos was crazy to do so. I'm not even sure it's that great a trade, but it probably beats doing nothing at all, for them...

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Jul 31, 2006 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions

The Boston Globe

In their rumors section, they were floating a Tejada trade which would have sent Tejada to the Astros for Roy Oswalt, Adam Everett and another player. I don't know how much to believe that, though.

by sasquatch83 on Jul 31, 2006 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions

oswalt

maybe they think he's slipping. His Krate is down this year, but everything else looks ok.

It would be nice to foresee a mulder-like meltdown, maybe the astros are that smart(though I really really doubt it)

by Team Moneyball on Jul 31, 2006 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions

true

why did they even deal him? i don't really understand. it's true that he's overpaid at his current level of production (though his OBP is still not merely great but truly outstanding), but he could bounce back... and even if he doesn't, he's a star. aren't they going to try to win next year? cj henry is a pretty marginal prospect to get in return for a star and a league-average starting pitcher. matt smith might be a decent lefty reliever. the two GCL guys, who knows... every system has a dozen of those guys, and odds are pretty heavily against either of them being a real contributor.

by jpahk on Jul 31, 2006 11:04 AM EDT reply actions

False

His performance just isn't worth the price these days, especially for a non-contender like the Phillies. Getting anything of potential value for the future would have been a positive move for the team. I was honestly surprised that they even managed to get Henry out of the package . . .it was only a year ago that he was a first round pick, and while he may be raw he's also still very talented.

Definitely a good move for the Phillies, IMO, although potentially disasterous long-term to the MLB economy as a whole. Don't like the idea of teams essentially selling players to the superpower teams.

by mrkupe on Jul 31, 2006 11:08 AM EDT reply actions

Perhaps

your take on the subject is False.

In Billy We Trust

by I Love Oakland As on Jul 31, 2006 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions

Casey to Tigers for Capps-esque RP, Brian Rogers

Does this indicate the Bucs are close to dishing Capps to Colorado for Shealy?

by SamsDog on Jul 31, 2006 11:12 AM EDT reply actions

Rogers?

Know anything about Rogers? I can't even find what he throws, other than a mention that his FB was high-80s in college.

by Vlad on Jul 31, 2006 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Brian Rogers

I believe his fastball is still in the hight 80's, but he has a very good slider, and still averages slightly more than one strikeout per inning. His WHIP this year is 0.98.

Of course, I don't know how much value there is in a 24 year old middle reliever in AA, but it sounds like the Tigers basically gave up nothing.

by TheCouga on Jul 31, 2006 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions

N/A

The correct answer is: Not Applicable. How can you get screwed when you aren't trying to win? The Phillies have gotten the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania et. al. to build them a shiny new ballpark, with nice, expensive luxury boxes and full concession rights, and now it's time to rake in the cash. Who really cares who plays right field or who the #3 starter is? It's Not Applicable. Why not try Gavin Floyd and his ballooning ERA again? Maybe they can get some people to come out just to boo. As long they come out and buy some Bull's Bar-B-Q or a Schmitter, they Phils owners will be happy.

Now you see why I gave up and went back to being a Mets fan. Great trade, Pat!

by tim @ Minor League Ball on Jul 31, 2006 11:20 AM EDT reply actions

Bandwagon

Who goes from being a Mets fan to a Phillies fan and back to a Mets fan? That's just not right.

As a Mets fan, the only things worse would be switching allegiance to the Yankees or Bravos.

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on Jul 31, 2006 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Me

I was born a Mets fan. I suffered through M. Donald Grant, the Saturday Night Massacre trade of Tom Seaver, and countless other indignities, and was finally vindicated in 1986. Then I graduated college, moved around, and eventually landed in the Philly area, where I gave the Fightin's more than a honest chance to win me over.

After 8 years of Ed Wade, I was about ready to cash in, but then Wade was finally fired and it looked like there was some hope with Pat Gillick. Then Pat signed Alex Gonzalez, Abe Nunez, and Ryan Franklin, and I knew nothing much had really changed. The final straw was how pathetically they handled the Brett Myers wife-beating episode. That's when I realized that these guys were not only losers but villians.

Now, I tune in to MLB.tv and WFAN 660 (which I can barely get), and watch and listen to the Mets dominate. Life's too short to waste rooting for a team that doesn't care.

by tim @ Minor League Ball on Jul 31, 2006 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions

Um...

from a Yanks fans perspective, I think the Yankees DEFINITLY got a good deal, and the Phillies got screwed.

Shut up. No one likes you.

by yanksfan6129 on Jul 31, 2006 11:28 AM EDT reply actions

False

I think the Phillies achieved their number one goal which was greater payroll flexibility. At the same time, however, the Yankees paid a small price as far as prospects go to get Abreu and Lidle, who they needed.

by count sutton on Jul 31, 2006 11:37 AM EDT reply actions

Great image

by SmokeyJoeWood on Jul 31, 2006 12:19 PM EDT reply actions

yankees trade

How that Yankees got that trade done without parting with either Hughes, Duncan, or Tabata, is beyond me.

I don't know... if I was a Phillies fan, I'd be all up in Pat Gillick's grill, no doubt.

by SmokeyJoeWood on Jul 31, 2006 12:21 PM EDT reply actions

I think the Yankees had all the leverage

The Phillies had one team that would take the entire contract, so the Yankees must have stonewalled them with this in mind. Cashman talked about how he demanded Lidle be part of the deal, and how the Phillies needed to take care of the No Trade Clause and payment because they won't guarentee his option.

Looks like Cashman knew he was in control.

by OneHitWonder @ Minor League Ball on Jul 31, 2006 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions

False

I don't think the Phillies got screwed if this was the best offer on the table and for all we know it probably was.

The question of whether they got value for Abreu is meaningless - of course they didn't, they couldn't expect to under the circumstances. However, they did free up the funds to sign Utley and Howard to the types of long term contracts that they will be demanding AND they have money to acquire a FA or 2 at substantially lower salaries than Abreu would have commanded in 2007. I would point out that Sheffield is unlikely to be resigned by the Yankees in 2007 and hence will be on the market. No idea what his price will be but, under the circumstances, it's likely to be less than if he had not been injured.

by prhood on Jul 31, 2006 12:28 PM EDT reply actions

What is the Phillies' budget?

They have a huge market to themselves and a new park. Shouldn't they have the money to keep Abreu at least through next season and extend Utley and Howard? (Not that Howard's salary should be a problem until after Abreu's contract runs out anyway.)

If Gillick has unrevealed information that Abreu is toast, that's one thing, but I do not understand why he is dumping so much payroll.

by asinwreck on Jul 31, 2006 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Ummm

GM's usually dump salaries to lock in their star players and to retool for the future and to sign free agents in the off season.

We should all reserve judgement until we see exactly what Gillick does in the off season.

by yoda1 on Jul 31, 2006 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions

Best part of trade for Yankees

Will be Lidle. The Yankees don't need another bat, they sorely need pitching. The rotation beyond Mussina and Wang is terrible at best right now. To get a guy who can throw 7 innings and keep from having to go to the bullpen in the 4th or 5th is going to help this team more incrementally than anything Abreu does unless Matsui and Sheffield don't play another inning this year.

You can argue anyway you want about what Gillick did but any Philly fan out there will have to wait to see what gets done with the money. To the point above that it is only the money above Abreu's worth - that is false. The value of this trade is what the Phillies do with the $21 million for next year. If they sign a decent catcher (3-4 mil), 3B (4-5 mil) and OF (6 mil) and have enough to sign a pitcher (6 mil) to fill in the holes around Utley, Howard, Rowand, Rollins and to a lesser degree, Burrell - this will be a great trade. If Gillick hands the $21 mil over to ownership to line their pockets - then we can begin the assault.

by slickwdb on Jul 31, 2006 12:47 PM EDT reply actions

nope

You're overthinking (or wishful thinking?) it. Right now, they have $15M invested in Abreu and are getting $10M in performance (or whatever the exact numbers are; you get the idea.) You're suggesting re-investing the $15M so you can get $15M worth of performance for it. That's a gain of $5M, not a gain of $15M.

Now, as slurve says above, it's possible that they can get more than $15M worth for their $15M if they re-invest it. I don't think that is a reasonable assumption, though. "This bad idea now will be made up for by us being really smart later?" Not a way of thinking that you want to rely on. Lacking any information to the contrary, I think the only fair assumption is that $15M gets you $15M.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Jul 31, 2006 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions

your salary quotes

What batters get only 3-5 million on the FA market? You're advocating this by stating that it gives the Phillies the ability to sign a couple of corpses like Randa or Mueller?

If they don't use the salary to get a marquee performer this is a failure. A collection of Jacque Jones and Randas and this is an abortion.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." - Henny Youngman

by TINSTAAPP on Jul 31, 2006 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm not slick...

but I'm trying to get at (as well as what I think he is) is that you that the money can be used for better players. Instead of having to sign a player like a Jaque Jones or Joe Randa, you can put an extra 3-5 mill towards getting someone better. So instead of spending money on a 5 million dollar player, you can get a couple of 8-12 million dollar players - or you can trade for a younger more expensive player. In any event, it gives them more financial flexibilty to go a few different directions. Now we just have to see where they go.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Plenty available

Garrett Atkins - how long will Colorado need him?
Joe Crede - always a possibility
Blalock
Chad Tracy
Brandon Inge - good source of power

All making 3 mill or less

Victor Martinez or Ryan Doumit are possible given that Paulino has pretty much stolen the job from Doumit and V Mart (weak on defense) is already losing his cacthing job in Cleveland.

Plenty of OF's can be obtained for $6 million as well - if you get a guy who can hit .280 and hit 15-20 hr's, steal a few bases - then the only thing you lost is bb's from what Abreu has done this year and for $6 mill - you can get that.

Whether the Phillies have the management skills to not make a knee jerk reaction and overpay again for somebody remains to be seen however those dollar parameters are realistic.

If you get someone who replaces what Abreu did this year for $6, replaces what Lidle did for $5 or 6 mil, then you have just freed up about $9-10 million in money which is a lot more than $5.

In addition - the ability to give more playing time to Victorino has potential value as well given his skill set. He would make a great #8 hitter in this line-up. Getting a chance to see what he and Bourn can do for the rest of the year also has value in determining what they may or may not need for next year.

Abreu was not a $15 million and not even a $10 million dollar player this year and if he was complaining about being in Philly, then he was not even worth $5 because you don't need that type of nonsense in your locker room.

There is a great core of players here and with a few additions for next year - this team could easily be competing for a wild card and maybe even push for the division. I am giving Gillick until opening day to see truly how this trade works out.

by slickwdb on Jul 31, 2006 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions

huh

first off your comment said "sign". Now your listing players that the Phillies would need to trade value for.

Texas just floated Blalock to the Astros for Lidge. They want a premium talent back. The Dbacks have no depth at 3B. For them to trade Tracy they will want pitching - something that the Phillies can't afford to give up. Ditto on V-Mart. Possibly available but you'd have to pay a big ransom. Unfortunately Gillick got zilch from the Yankees to help him deal for another player...

Abreu or no Abreu I don't see what that has to do with Doumit. He makes nada.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading." - Henny Youngman

by TINSTAAPP on Jul 31, 2006 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Not necessarily

There's always teams out there that are looking to unload guys that are running out of arbitration years. They feel that they don't want to spend what the player would command on the open market, so they trade him. I think Blalock may end up being one of these players soon.

Whether it's by trade or free-agency it doesn't matter. They have flexibility to make some things happen - now will they do it?

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions

got best 2nd baseman in game

got 1 of top 3-5 firstbaseman,
center fielder who was important cog in last world champ team,
ss who went on some almost 40 game hitting streak with speed good d,
power hitting left fielder,
good hitting established catcher,
good if not quite ace level 3-headed starting pitching staff with adequate end-rotation fillers.
decent to good relief pitching
HAD one of best all around left fielder

lets see that's bout a whole roster..

uh oh..

hole at 3rd basebase

"sorry folks, guess we just too far away too contend in near future"

tranlation:

"the owner wants to pocket the muh and ah warntsa to keep mah jerb, so ahl jers set the bar so low, that, dang, abject abysmal failure is success"

another translation.

"dern you people are too stupid to breath"

by dryice on Jul 31, 2006 3:16 PM EDT reply actions

don't overvalue your players

Since when is Cano the best second baseman in the game? Have you heard of Chase Utley? Barfield is good, young, and has comparable stats. I'd take Brian Roberts and his glove over Cano any day. And then you could make the case for Jose Lopez, Orlando Hudson, Jose Castillo, Rickie Weeks, Tad Iguchi, Ronnie Belliard, Jose Vidro, etc... Cano is good, and young... But it's WAY premature to call him the best 2B in the game.

Jason Giambi is terrific, but he's more of a DH than 1B. But if we call him a 1B, I'd go and say I'd rather have Morneau, Pujols, Konerko, Ryan Howard. No way he's top-3 1B.

Jeter has soft hands and a good arm but terrible range.

Mussina is the only ace on that staff right now. Johnson is old, banged up and looks lost at times. Wang has a solid ERA but his peripherals suggest (even for a sinkerballer) that he is pitching over his head right now.

Don't overvalue your players. The Yanks are dangerously thin in starting pitching and are also limited on defense.

That being said, the Abreu deal was a great one and the Yanks have a scary team.

by nyr2k2 on Jul 31, 2006 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions

I believe you are very confused

Unless I am misreading - the CF in question is Aaron Rowand who was important to the White Sox last year, the top 2nd bagger is Utley, the top 5 1b is Howard and the hole is at 3B which the Phillies have. The pitching staff has Myers, Hamels, Madsen, Wolf, etc.

I don't think that post was about the Yankees but if it was then everything you said was correct.

by slickwdb on Jul 31, 2006 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions

maybe just quit postin here ..

best second baseman - utley
top first baseman - howard
power hitting, around hitting corners burrell, abrue (the HAD guy)

speed good d ss, oh yea well-publicized hitting streak - rollins

important cog in last world series champ - rowland

maybe the 3-headed near ace pitching staff was confusin..(myers, wolf, hamels) so probably shouldn't have said that..but wolf was former all-star, quality pitcher. myers is good, and hamels is top prospect with good control

but understated relief corps which is excellent with shut down closer - gordon.

that's just about a whole freakin lineup of high quality filler players sprinkled w/ studs - which is what comprises a championship team.

this is the team that is dumping payroll in order to "rebuild" cuz the GM says something on the order he can't see the light at the end of the tunnel for "at least" the next couple years... and, oh yea, there only a few games out of the wild card spot now.

on the question as to who wins the abru trade..
easy...aint the phillies fan. they got an owner who wants to pocket the dough and a GM who - when he HAS 4 aces - plays it like he's got a sampler. That way, can't lose cuz never in the game.

just wondering why the phillies fans are buying this crap

by dryice on Aug 2, 2006 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Huh?

I was trying to tell the person that responded to you that you were not talking about the Yankees or Cano but were in fact talking about the Phillies. I was clarifying your post. I got it.

by slickwdb on Aug 3, 2006 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions

sorry attached to wrong post

by dryice on Aug 4, 2006 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions

minor deals

Apart from the whole Soriano situation, I'm really interested to see if anyone goes after Ryan Shealy, Luke Scott or someone like that. Dan Johnson could be a great pickup for someone too if Beane is shopping him.

by pinkfloyd @ Minor League Ball on Jul 31, 2006 3:20 PM EDT reply actions

Todd Walker

allegedly to the Padres for a minor leaguer.

Seems smart for San Diego. He's an acceptable 3B, and I'm sure they didn't give up anyone of note. Park shouldn't hurt him as much as some other guys.

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Jul 31, 2006 3:47 PM EDT reply actions

soriano not moved??????!!!!???

no reports on any deal 30 mins after the deadline -- if he's not moved thats disastrous for bowden

I'll be the first A+ prospect...

by ufoboy90 on Jul 31, 2006 4:29 PM EDT reply actions

Julio Lugo

reportedly traded to Dodgers for Joel Guzman and Sergio Pedroza.

Does one of Upton or Guzman play SS for Tampa now?

and boom goes the dynamite.

by Mean Dean on Jul 31, 2006 4:31 PM EDT reply actions

Neither will play short

Just my opinion. If ALL the Rays' prospects live up to potential, Upton will play 3B, and Guzman will likely play 1B/DH. Here is how the line-up will look sometime in 2007 if everything stays its course:

LF - Crawford
3B - Upton
CF - Baldelli
DH - Gomes
RF - Young
2B - Cantu
1B - Guzman
C - Navarro
SS - Zobrist

Of course, a left-handed power bat like Jeromy Burnitz or Ryan Klesko would fit into the line-up nicely.

by StickRat on Jul 31, 2006 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions

that's a pretty good lineup

although, I am not at all high on Zorbist

Let's Go Yankees.

by yanksfan6129 on Aug 1, 2006 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions

Not exactly Murderers' Row ...

But yeah, those are some serious bats. A lot of free swingers, which may be problematic. And I like John's vision of Carl Crawford eventually batting in the three-spot. Zobs is actually a pretty darn good shortstop. Good all-around defense and a .280 average is all you need at short when it's surrounded by that caliber of talent.

by StickRat on Aug 1, 2006 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Chacon for Craig Wilson

Great for the Yanks. I feel bad for Pirates fans. The GM should be fired. The compensatory pick would have been worth more than Chacon.

by OneHitWonder @ Minor League Ball on Jul 31, 2006 4:33 PM EDT reply actions

Shealy traded

From ESPN:
MLB TRADE UPDATE
The Colorado Rockies have acquired left-hander Jeremy Affeldt and right-hander Denny Bautista from the Kansas City Royals for infielder Ryan Shealy and right-hander Scott Dohmann.

by OneHitWonder @ Minor League Ball on Jul 31, 2006 4:46 PM EDT reply actions

Maddux to the

Dodger for Cesar Izturis

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 4:46 PM EDT reply actions

Cubs get Neifi's other brother.

Izturis is a veteran form of current Cubs shortstop Ronny Cedeno. Other than 4 million in salary what improvement was made? It was said on MLB radio by Kevin Kennedy (An idiot) that Izturis' defense will help the Cubs. The last time I checked defense wasn't their problem, it was lack of offense. Well it does give Baker a chance to put a different guy in the two hole who can't hit.

I blame Sickels for this. Why in the hell is he not working for the Cubs? Come on John lets get those resumes in!

by rifle24 on Jul 31, 2006 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions

I concur

Jim Hendry and Andy McFail are the worst front office tandem since Isiah Thomas and James Dolan.

by aaronb on Aug 1, 2006 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions

What did the Pirates accomplish today?

They exchanged Craig Wilson as their 1B/RF for Xavier Nady.

They exchanged Perez/Wells as the 5th starter for Shawn Chacon.

Sigh....

by calig23 on Jul 31, 2006 4:54 PM EDT reply actions

False

The Phillies did not get screwed on the Abreu deal. The Phillies got screwed two years ago, when Vicente Padilla and Randy Wolf got hurt.

by StickRat on Jul 31, 2006 5:48 PM EDT reply actions

I honestly

don't understand why everyone is being so rough on the Phils over this. Like a few have been saying, what the Phils ultimately do with the money will determine how good/bad deal is.

I see this deal as being basically the same idea behind the Carlos Lee/Podsednick trade last year. The biggest part of that deal for the White Sox wasn't Podsednick - it was the financial flexibility they gained to then go out and get Dye/Pierzinski.

One thing in sports - when someone wins a championship, the rest of the league starts to try and imitate what they did. The Phils are similar to the Sox in that they are good, but what they were doing need to be tweaked. Worked for the Sox, why not the Phils?

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 7:28 PM EDT reply actions

not the same

Chicago got a starting left fielder who they found useful enough to play everyday. Luis Vizcaino was also shipped to the Whitesox in the deal. L-Viz didn't work out but the #s he put up the previous year for the Brewers proved he had value. Gillick got zero value for Abreu.

by im not new on Jul 31, 2006 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Different, but the same

Sure the White Sox got a player they could use. When the Brewers took Lee, they also didn't come close to taking 23 million in salary either. If they did, they would not have gotten Podsednick/Vizcaino. It's basically the same, just a bigger scale.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jul 31, 2006 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions

Oldest Trade Still Active

When the Twins traded Lohse they traded away one of the products of their trade of Frank Viola in the 80's. They got Rick Aguilera as part of the Viola deal and traded him for Lohse. Does anyone know of teams who have players in their system from trades that are older than that? There must be some.

by TT @ Minor League Ball on Aug 1, 2006 11:23 AM EDT reply actions

not quite as old, but...

Not quite as old as far as strictly trading, but the Mariners have a streak of continuous transactions going back to the drafting of Mark Langston as a compensation pick in 1981. I can't remember which free agent triggered the compensation. Strictly trading, it goes back to the 1989 Langston-Randy Johnson deal. Freddy Garcia and Jeremy Reed are the other major links in the chain.

by rlwhite on Aug 1, 2006 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Trade Deadline

FALSE!!
In addition to the 4 prospects from the Yanks they got SUPERSTAR HUGO SALARYDUMP. They can trade Hugo for 2 Frontline Starters in the offseason and make another run next year. The Phillies got what they wanted.

by yankee4ever on Aug 1, 2006 1:59 PM EDT reply actions

Oswalt and Schmidt?

Ignorance is bliss. Calling someone an idiot - you're just pissed. Now go back and get that education that you obviously missed.

by slurve on Aug 1, 2006 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions

Oswalt

isn't a FA until after 2007 isn't he?

by OneHitWonder @ Minor League Ball on Aug 1, 2006 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions

I'm pretty sure

he's a FA after this year - that's why he was in so many trade rumors.

Ignorance is bliss. Calling someone an idiot - you're just pissed. Now go back and get that education that you obviously missed.

by slurve on Aug 1, 2006 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Oswalt

2007. But why check your facts. Ignorance is bliss.

In Billy We Trust

by I Love Oakland As on Aug 1, 2006 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions

yeah

i pobalby should. Otherwise you get some jackass smartass giving you shit

Ignorance is bliss. Calling someone an idiot - you're just pissed. Now go back and get that education that you obviously missed.

by slurve on Aug 2, 2006 6:53 AM EDT up reply actions

OMG

You called me a jackass! Perhaps I should act outraged and go on the offensive like you seem to do on a weekly basis. oh wait... I'm not a little girl like yourself...

In Billy We Trust

by I Love Oakland As on Aug 2, 2006 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions

Fun Fact

Just because the Phillies can now afford some players doesn't mean any of them will want to play for them. Will be interesting to see what happens there.

by OneHitWonder @ Minor League Ball on Aug 1, 2006 8:52 PM EDT reply actions

Phils

Baseball players are whores. Who ever waves the most money usually gets their man. They may not get everyone they want, but they should do quite quite well if they are serious.

Ignorance is bliss. Calling someone an idiot - you're just pissed. Now go back and get that education that you obviously missed.

by slurve on Aug 1, 2006 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions

False - Phillies did not get screwed

But the rest of baseball is screwed when the Yanks are about the only team able to pick up talent simply because the talent is perceived as "overpaid".

Even Boston tries to stay under the luxury cap threshhold.

by conig166 on Aug 2, 2006 1:35 PM EDT reply actions