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Nostalgia Prospect: Shawon Dunston

Nostalgia Prospect Retro: Shawon Dunston

Shawon Dunston is a good player to pair with Walt Weiss. While Weiss was an extreme example of a weak tools player who survived in the majors on baseball skill, Dunston is an extreme example of a player with weak skills but who survived due to his awesome athleticism.

In the spring of 1982, Shawon Dunston of Thomas Jefferson High School in Brooklyn, New York, was almost universally regarded as the best overall prospect in the draft class. He hit .790 his senior year. He has excellent speed and good raw power. He had a cannon for a throwing arm. He was somewhat raw and needed experience, but the Cubs had no hesitation, selecting him with the first overall pick in the draft.

Dunston began his pro career by hitting .321 with 32 steals in just 53 games in the Gulf Coast League. His strike zone judgment was poor, but he hit well overall due to his bat speed and quick wrists. I would probably have given him a Grade A- or B+ retrospectively, due to his draft position, athleticism, and decent early performance, but the questionable plate discipline and general rawness would have kept him from a pure Grade A right away.

Assigned to Quad Cities in the Class A Midwest League in 1983, Dunston hit .310 with 58 steals in 117 games. He showed some pop to the gaps, knocking 17 doubles, eight triples, and four homers, and continued to impress scouts with his throwing arm. His strikeout rate was decent with 51 whiffs in 455 at-bats, but he drew just seven walks all season. I'm not sure what I would have done with his grade. I might have kept it as B+, but I might have dropped it to straight B (or even B- if I was in a bad mood) due to his extremely low walk rate.

The Cubs skipped Dunston past advanced A in 1984, sending him directly to Double-A. He hit .329 in 73 games for Midland in the Texas League. He kept his strikeout rate decent but again, he didn't draw many walks, picking up just 11 free passes, granted that was still an improvement compared to his '83 numbers. A mid-season promotion to Triple-A Iowa overmatched him: he hit just .233 in 61 games in Des Moines, with just four walks in 210 at-bats. I saw Dunston play a lot that spring. The two positive things that stood out most about him were his absolutely outstanding throwing arm, and his blazing speed. But he was a sloppy player. . .he made frequent mental mistakes, running himself into outs on the bases, or trying (and failing) for the spectacular play on defense rather than the sure one. He could hit fastballs well, but had massive trouble with breaking balls or changeups. He was still very young and had time to improve. But in most ways he never really did; the scouting report you could write about him in 1985 would still be valid 10 years later.

Dunston split 1985 between Iowa and Chicago, hitting .260/.310/.388 in his 74-game major league trial. He was Chicago's starting shortstop in 1986, hitting .250/.278/.411. He hit 37 doubles and 17 homers, but his horrible 21/114/581 BB/K/AB ratio, and his dismal 13-for-24 stolen base percentage stood out as major negatives.

The Cubs used Dunston as their regular shortstop from 1986 through 1995, or at least they tried to. . .he missed major time to injuries in '87, '92, '93, and '94. He eventually learned how to get good jumps and became an effective basestealer, although he'd still run himself into reckless outs at times. His throwing arm was a major asset, and he had good range early in his career, but he was never an especially reliable defender. He had enough power to be dangerous, but if you worked him outside the strike zone he would get himself out more often than not. His best OPS+ mark in a full season was +109 in 1995, but most of the time he was below average overall.

Dunston signed with the Giants as a free agent for 1996, beginning a long trek through baseball rosters, playing for the Giants (three different stints), the Cubs again, the Pirates, Indians, Mets, and Cardinals. By the end of his career he was a utility bat off the bench. His strike zone judgment became a bad joke by the end of his career; he drew 11 walks against 112 strikeouts in his last 547 at-bats.

I think Dunston was one of the most unique and interesting (if frustrating)-to-watch players of his era. Although he improved in some ways, he never really seemed to have a great feel for the game. Walt Weiss survived because his outstanding skills and feel for the game compensated, somewhat, for his weak tools. Dunston survived because his superb tools compensated, somewhat, for his lack of real skill at baseball. If you could take Weiss' skills and add them to Dunston's tools, you'd have a superstar. Take Weiss's tools and add them to Dunston's skills, and you wouldn't get drafted.

A Final Note: For all their differences, Weiss and Dunston ended up having careers of very similar value.

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cool
thanks. great pair to look at together.

A lot in there that is answer to the oft asked question: "Why do scouts keep touting this completely raw young player, even when he seemingly keeps failing at a level".  Tools do matter.  

Dunston, while not a true favorite of mine, always seemed like a real asset to teams.  He seemed like one of those guys that was willing to just grind it out his way and the heart carried him very far.  As much heart as a guy like Grace or Weiss? Maybe not, but it was there.  A little more willingness to change could have helped...but then again 18 years in the Majors? Just about any current prospect could only hope for as much.

Thanks again for these John...cool stuff.

by roaddog on Mar 18, 2006 4:33 PM EST reply actions  

HS
He hit .790 his senior year in HS. That's insane!

by akk99 on Mar 18, 2006 4:58 PM EST reply actions  

Dunston as a Pirate...
I remember when the Pirates traded for Dunston. That was back in 1997, when the $9 million Pirates contended until the final week in a weak NL Central. They picked up Dunston as their token "hired gun" for the playoff race.

I'd say it was a fairly good pickup, as Dunston batted .394 with 10 XBHs in 71 ABs.

Unfortunately, the '97 "Freak Show" faded and finished 5 games back of Houston.

by calig23 on Mar 18, 2006 5:51 PM EST reply actions  

OBP vs Power +Speed
First of all, I'm not sure you did complete justice to Dunton's speed.  When he was healthy, he put up these SB/CS #'s:  30/9, 25/5, 21/6, 29/7.  Those are very good ratios and represent a real contribution to the offense.  

Dunton's SLG% was almost 100 pts higher than Weiss', but Weiss' OBP was 55 pts higher.  Here's the career #'s:

Dunston- .296/.416/.712

Weiss- .351/.326/.677.

Even with the far better OBP, Weiss still has a significantly lower career OPS.  He just had no power at all and he didn't make up for it with speed.  

This is the classic argument about the relative value of OBP vs power and speed.  Unless you put what is IMO unwarrented value on OBP, it really is no contest.  Dunston wins hands down.

I think Dunston mainly suffers from comparisons to his potential.  Clearly injuries played a huge role in holding down his career numbers.  Here's an interesting question:  Are "tools" players more injury prone than "skill" players because their athleticism allows them to do more dangerous things on the field?

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 18, 2006 7:34 PM EST reply actions  

speed
I noted in the article that Dunston eventually learned how to get good jumps and steal bases.

by John Sickels on Mar 18, 2006 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Eventually?
I guess the term eventually is somewhat vague.  To me, it sounds like something he found in mid career or later.  If you look at Dunston's first 4 years, his SB/CS were as follows:

1985  11/3 in 74 games
1986  13/11 in 150 games
1987  12/3 in 95 games
1988   30/9 in 155 games.

If you project the 1985 and 1987 numbers to a full season, you get about 20/5 which would be just a tad under his peak years.  1986 is the outlier.  1988 is still pretty early in his career.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 18, 2006 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Defense?
Im no expert but I think defensive aptitude is pretty important, especially for a shortstop.  Dunston was a nice SS early in his career with the cubs, but by 1990 he was a liability.  He did the flashy things well; hit homeruns, stole bases, and threw hard, while he didnt do the unflashy things well.  Thats pretty much the definition of overrated.

by sanchez101 on Mar 19, 2006 3:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Measurable?
Can't really argue with that since much of defense is immeasurable.  What we can measure isn't all that different.  

Dunston- .968 Fielding %

Weiss- .970 Fielding %

Dunston had 4.07 Chances/game, Weiss had a bit of an edge there with 4.28.  Weiss turned DP's at a .583/game clip while Dunston was significantly lower at .439/game.  Don't know what the significance of those stats are.  Was Weiss just better at turning the DP or did he have a better second baseman to work with?  Were his pitchers have a higher GO/AO?

At any rate, the impression of Dunston being more error prone is false based on fielding %.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 19, 2006 10:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Adjustments
Dunston actually didn't play much SS late in his career.  Weiss only played SS.  If you only count games played at SS, Dunston fielded 4.50 Chances/game, compared to Weiss' 4.28.  Dunston's fielding % goes down a tick to .967, still not significantly different than Weiss.  Dunstans DP rate goes up to 5.13/game, still quite a bit lower than Weiss.

Overall, I'd say the two were approximately of equal value defensively.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 19, 2006 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

dunston
Perhaps I'm just thinking too much about the stupid bonehead mistakes he made constantly in Triple-A, which was my first exposure to him. First impressions and all.

by John Sickels on Mar 18, 2006 7:55 PM EST reply actions  

Runs Produced
One stat I like to look at is Runs Produced Average which I define as Runs+RBI's/PA's.  This one always gets the statheads boiling mad, team context, etc.  Anyway, for what it's worth:

Dunston- .224

Weiss- .183

That is a very significant difference.  I just don't think you can say that Weiss, who played on the A's and Rockies, was deprived of lineup support. If you look at a large number of players, you will find that in the overwhelming majority of cases, Power+Speed trumps OBP in terms of Runs Produced.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 18, 2006 8:07 PM EST reply actions  

Hmm
I get the impression that Dunston might have been a #2 hitter for much of his career, while Weiss was usually a low-order guy.  If true, that would account for the difference.

by limozeen on Mar 18, 2006 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Comparison
I don't have the resources to go through their careers at bat by at bat to see how many people were on base ahead of them and the production of people behind them, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that Weiss suffered too much from non support with the teams he played on.  I may be wrong, but I seem to remember Weiss as a #2 hitter quite a bit too.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 18, 2006 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I remember his arm
Might be the best I've ever seen from a middle-infielder.  Furcal's is close, though.

by Ian Miller on Mar 18, 2006 8:53 PM EST reply actions  

I also remember...
How many times Mark Grace saved errors in the dirt, high, or that drew him off the bag because Dunston's throws were so errant.

He should give any money earned for going to those two All-Star games to Grace who saved his ass probably close to once every game or two.

by Boxkutter on Mar 19, 2006 4:36 AM EST reply actions  

Errors
Both Dunston and Weiss played for several teams and worked with several different firstbasemen.  They have almost identical Fielding %.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 19, 2006 10:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Dunston played....
Most of his infield career with Mark Grace and JT Snow as his first basemen.

Through 1987 through 1998 when he played the majority of his SS and 2B games. Grace won the Gold Glove in 1992, 1993, 1995, and 1996. JT Snow won it in 1997 and 1998. Total they won about 10 Gold Gloves. But only those 6 were won with Dunston having a major role in their infield.

Weiss had McGwire as his first baseman the first couple years, and I do not recall who was the 1B for the Rockies back then, so I cant check that.

Dunston played with two of the better fielding 1B of our generation. That coupled with the many Cubs games I saw during summer vacation in high school on WGN, I would say that statistically they may have similar numbers, but watching the games, Dunston had a very erratic arm. His range wasnt bad, but the great 1B he played with saved many possible errors that Dunston could have caused.

PS- Grace should have won the 1994 GG also, but that was Bagwell's big MVP season, so they gave it to him, even though Grace had less errors and a high Fielding %.

by Boxkutter on Mar 19, 2006 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Mark Grace
Mark Grace was surely an excellent fielding firstbaseman.  Again, you really can't measure his impact so your point is inarguable.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 19, 2006 3:02 PM EST up reply actions  

How can you not measure impact?
Are you saying that with a worse 1B than Snow or Grace, that Dunston would have had the same amount of errors?

Sorry, but that is like saying that it does not matter what kind of defense you put behind a pitcher, his numbers will not be any different. Surrounding Dunston with better fielders is of course going to help his numbers.

Weiss and Dunston had similar overall defensive numbers, but Weiss had the likes of McGwire, Galarraga (solid, but not spectacular), and whomever was in Atlanta at the time.

Having a better first baseman is obviously going to make the entire infield better because of their ability to dig balls out of the dirt, stretch to get an out, come off the bag and still be able to tag the runner. The infield has to act as a cohesive unit, and when the glue (a 1B) is not as strong, then it makes everyone else look worse. I do not need statistics to prove that point, its just common sense.

Would Montana had been as great a QB without guys like Craig, Rice, and Taylor to throw to? Highly unlikely, they were able to get to balls many others could not have.

by Boxkutter on Mar 19, 2006 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Misrepresentation
You completely misrepresented what I said.  I did not say that Mark Grace didn't help Dunston.  I just said you can't measure how much he helped.  If you can, I'd be interested in seeing how you did it.

Having said that, I don't think you can point to Grace and JT and use that as proof that Dunston was some scatter armed wild thing on the field either.  Yeah, Grace and Snow probably helped Dunston. Does that make Walt Weiss a better SS?  That's a pretty big stretch if you ask me.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 19, 2006 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Regarding the poll
As far as whom I'd want to play shortstop for my team in 2006, since Dunston and Weiss are both 42 now, I think I'd take Dunston. I think that at an advanced athletic age, tools might offer slightly less physical deterioration than skills. Sorry, just riffing on the Ty Cobb remark:

"What would you hit if you were playing today?"

".300."  

"Why only .300?"

"You've got to remember - I'm seventy-three."

by Flynn Blake on Mar 19, 2006 5:48 PM EST reply actions  

Percentage player
Bill James in the Historical Abstract wrote about Dunston (in which he ranked him higher than Walt Weiss): "A Player with speed, some power, a decent batting average, and one of the best arms of his generation, but as bad a percentage player as has ever played the game.  He was basically an eternal rookie, a player who continued until the end of his career to make rookie mistakes."

As someone who watched him through all three of his stints in SF and picked him up as a free agent in 1985 in my roto league's first season, I can honestly say that no truer words were ever written about him.  

by rcobeen on Mar 20, 2006 3:02 AM EST reply actions  

The Shawon-O-Meter
My previous comments about Ron Kittle are perfect here as well. It's always interesting which players appeal to Chicago sports fans. Dunston is another in a long line of guys who are remembered as better than they actually were. However, I do admit he was fun to watch. I was 14 when the Cubs called him up, and I definitely bought into the hype. Basically, he was a decent player who showed occasional flashes of greatness.
Please fire Dusty Baker!

by Buddy on Mar 20, 2006 9:28 AM EST reply actions  

2 Giants Memories
  1. In Dunston's final year with the Giants (02) Barry Bonds walked more times than Shawon did in his entire 18 year career.
  2. Barring an unspeakable bullpen meltdown, Dunston should have ended his career in triumph, having hit crucial home run in final appearance, Game 6 of the '02 World Series.

by Roger on Mar 20, 2006 9:33 AM EST reply actions  

06 Series
I will never, ever understand why Dunston was on the bench in Game 7 while Shinjo and Pedro Feliz were in the starting lineup.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 20, 2006 9:59 AM EST up reply actions  

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