Prospect Smackdown: Verlander Vs. Cain Vs. Billingsley
Prospect Smackdown: Justin Verlander vs. Matt Cain vs. Chad Billingsley
There is a vigorous debate right now in sabermetric circles about these three young pitchers. . .which one is best? My own ranking is Verlander/Cain/Billingsley in that order, although I consider these three pitchers (along with Minnesota lefty Francisco Liriano) as the best pitching prospects in baseball. But other people have different rankings. I've had several requests for a smackdown for this trio, so here goes.
BACKGROUND AND INTANGIBLES:
Verlander: Verlander was drafted in the first round in 2004, by the Tigers out of Old Dominion, second overall. His college career was impressive but erratic. He showed overpowering stuff, but his mechanics and control were inconsistent, and there was some concern about how quickly he would adapt to the upper levels of pro ball.
Those concerns were quickly dispelled in 2005, as he was utterly dominant at the minor league level. Regarded as intelligent, he sometimes lacked confidence as an amateur, but looked just fine last year, although he overthrew to some extent in the majors.
Cain: Cain was a first round pick in 2002, 25th overall, out of high school in Memphis. He was regarded as being a bit raw when first drafted, but his development in pro ball was quite smooth. He adjusted very quickly to professional competition, maturing rapidly emotionally, intellectually, and physically. He's made the necessary adjustments as he's moved up, and scouts regard him as possessing the intelligence and confidence necessary to be a top-notch rotation anchor.
Billingsley: Billingsley was a first round pick in 2003, 24th overall, out of high school in Defiance, Ohio. He was well-known to scouts for many years as an amateur, he suffered a bit from "overfamiliarity," in the sense that scouts knew about him for a long time and started to focus on his weaknesses, rather than his strengths, some teams seeing him more as a second-rounder on draft day. The Dodgers have been quite pleased with his pro performance. He's intelligent and confident, with all of the intangibles necessary to be a top flight starter.
Comparison: All three pitchers have the mental, intellectual, and emotional intangibles to be top-notch major league pitchers. Verlander and Billingsley had higher amateur profiles than Cain, but all three have shown rapid development over the last two years. It's about as even as you can get here.
PHYSICALITY AND STUFF:
Verlander: Verlander has a good pitcher's build at 6-5, 200 pounds, with fine overall athleticism and top-notch arm strength. His fastball is 92-93 MPH on a bad day, 98-99 on a good day, and a consistent 94-95 most days. The fastball has excellent movement as well as velocity. He also has an above-average curveball, and his changeup proved to be better-than-advertised. It was erratic in college, but just fine as a pro, giving him three plus pitches.
Cain: Cain is big and strong at 6-3, 230 pounds. Although reasonably athletic, he's a big guy and may have to watch his weight as he gets older. His fastball is excellent at 92-94 MPH, hitting 95-97 MPH at times. His curveball is above average, and he was more willing to uses his changeup last year. The change still needs some work, but should be an above average pitch in time.
Billingsley: At 6-2, 215 pounds, Billingsley has a somewhat stocky build and some believe he will have to watch his weight as he gets older. However, he's a fine natural athlete with plus arm strength. His fastball is a consistent 92-94 MPH pitch, touching 95-96 at times. His curveball and slider are both considered to be above-average. His changeup is mediocre right now, but he works hard at it.
Comparison:: Verlander has the best fastball in terms of peak velocity, and all three can hit the mid-90s. All three also have above-average breaking balls. All three also need to improve their changeups. I think Verlander has a slight advantage due to better peak velocity. Physically, Verlander is also closest to the ideal physical specimen.
PITCHABILITY AND PERFORMANCE:
Verlander: Verlander's statistics in the minors last year were beyond outstanding: 11-2, with a 1.29 ERA and a 136/26 K/BB in 119 innings. The Tigers tweaked his mechanics before the season, resulting in much better command than he showed in college. His power/precision combination was more than most minor league hitters could deal with.
Cain: Cain went 10-5, 4.39 in the Pacific Coast League, with a 176/73 K/BB in 146 innings. Given his age (20) and the difficulties of the PCL environment, his performance was very good. He looked good in seven late-season starts with the Giants. Stat-wise, Cain's biggest problem is a higher-than-ideal walk rate. He knows how to pitch and is not a thrower, but his control is still unreliable on occasion.
Billingsley: Billingsley went 13-6, 3.51 with a 162/50 K/BB in Double-A at age 20. His component ratios were all very good, and he acquitted himself well against generally older competition. He understands the intellectual side of pitching, and is not a thrower, though he needs to use his changeup more effectively and more often. Although his walk rate was good last year, he occasionally has trouble with command within the strike zone.
Comparison: Verlander had the best numbers in '05, although both Cain and Billingsley pitched quite well, especially considering age/competition factors. Cain did better than Verlander in their major league exposures. All three have good command for a power pitcher, with Verlander possibly having a slight edge.
PROJECTION AND HEALTH:
Verlander: Verlander is unlikely to gain additional velocity, being physically mature right now. Mechanical refinements have eased concerns about his durability. Injury is a risk for any pitcher, of course, but if he continues to throw strikes like this, Verlander should be a durable power pitcher.
Cain: Cain is physically mature and unlikely to pick up additional velocity. He had some elbow soreness early in his career, but has been durable the last two seasons.
Billingsley: Billingsley is physically mature for his age and unlikely to add additional velocity. He's been healthy as both an amateur and a pro, and his injury risk is no higher than normal for his age group.
Comparison: Cain has the highest injury risk due to his 2003 elbow trouble and his weaker command. All three are at their physical peaks now and aren't likely to improve much further from where they currently are in terms of velocity.
OVERALL:
Overall, I give Verlander a slight edge. Cain ranks a notch ahead of Billingsley because he has Triple-A and major league experience as opposed to "just" Double-A success. So I make it Verlander/Cain/Billingsley.
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76 comments
Comments
Liriano.
by Justin & Joe on
Feb 21, 2006 3:37 PM EST
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pitch
Liriano
Cain
Billingsley
by John Sickels on
Feb 21, 2006 3:51 PM EST
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Wow.
This Verlander kid must be really awesome. Can't wait to see him pitch.
Almost with the Red Sox were in the AL Central now. What an exciting division it's suddenly become!
by abbreviatedman on
Feb 22, 2006 12:23 AM EST
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Oops.
by abbreviatedman on
Feb 22, 2006 12:23 AM EST
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Thanks, John!
by RayRay on
Feb 21, 2006 3:53 PM EST
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injury concerns?
by taggartd on
Feb 21, 2006 3:55 PM EST
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quick
I still think Cain has higher injury risk due to his weaker control.
by John Sickels on
Feb 21, 2006 4:05 PM EST
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thats good news...
- a pitcher who struggled to end the last season with health or
- a pitcher who had a serious injury but has since pitched two full years without problems.
by taggartd on
Feb 21, 2006 4:40 PM EST
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Verlander
My only concern is how Detroit handles him. I think he should only get about 170 - 190 innings this year max.
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 12:13 AM EST
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question
How does command affect injury??
by werdnadogg on
Feb 21, 2006 3:58 PM EST
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command
by John Sickels on
Feb 21, 2006 4:03 PM EST
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Unrelated point
John, Pelfrey's vitals are listed as 6' 180 lbs, but everything I have seen lists him as 6'7" 230 lbs. That's a big difference!
by BaseballBrain on
Feb 21, 2006 4:21 PM EST
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Tough call, but... Cain, Verlander, Billingsley
Shoulders scare the heck out of me -- way more than elbows.
If Liriano was on the list, I'd rate him #1. Great component ratios, huge improvement the last couple of years, and he's a lefty -- which really doesn't matter except in pick-em circumstances.
But heck, I'd take any of them in a heart-beat... David Wells plus, anyone?
{166 is Tony Conigliaro's career HR total in a career ended far too soon)
by conig166 on
Feb 21, 2006 4:46 PM EST
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Are you more reluctant...
by kenshin1 on
Feb 21, 2006 6:35 PM EST
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id still rate them
I think i am seeing a lot of college pitcher bias here with rating verlander first.
by npurcell on
Feb 21, 2006 7:16 PM EST
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yep
by wily mo on
Feb 21, 2006 7:24 PM EST
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re: verlander
next year, is he going to be in the tiger rotation or head to AAA?
by npurcell on
Feb 21, 2006 7:27 PM EST
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He's battling for a rotation spot.
by abbreviatedman on
Feb 22, 2006 2:47 AM EST
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bias
by John Sickels on
Feb 21, 2006 7:22 PM EST
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Isn't a 2.33 ERA and .93 WHIP
by RayRay on
Feb 21, 2006 7:29 PM EST
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It's called a "cup of coffee"
by Flynn Blake on
Feb 21, 2006 10:25 PM EST
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On that same note...
by limozeen on
Feb 21, 2006 11:53 PM EST
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What about Cain's A stint?
1.67 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 7.33 H/9, 1.99 BB/9, 10.88 K/9
Here's Cain's comparable A ball year:
1.86 ERA, 1.03 WHIP, 7.18 H/9, 2.11 BB/9, 11.02 K/9.
This season was every bit as good as Verlander's, and probably better due to league context (Cal league). Cain was 19 at the time.
Verlander has put up some gaudy numbers, and he's a great pitcher. Cain has a little tarnish because he's got injury history and was very aggressively promoted. I still think Cain's performances, adjusted for context, are better and that he should be a straight A prospect.
by limozeen on
Feb 21, 2006 7:36 PM EST
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to add
92IP
2.35 era 1.27 WHIP 6.65 H/9 4.79 bb/9 10.86 K/9
and, you could probably "adjust" those to make them better due to his home park since everyone seemed to be downplaying and adjusting kemp's numbers due to his A+ homepark.
by npurcell on
Feb 21, 2006 7:43 PM EST
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cain
Verlander throws harder than Cain and has better command.
People are acting like I'm dissing Cain by rating him as the third-best pitching prospect in baseball. Geez, guys, I love Cain.
by John Sickels on
Feb 21, 2006 7:35 PM EST
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I know
by limozeen on
Feb 21, 2006 7:38 PM EST
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promotion
by John Sickels on
Feb 21, 2006 7:41 PM EST
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So I guess that
by RayRay on
Feb 21, 2006 7:39 PM EST
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nope
How about "www.jasonkubelwassupposedtobeinthebookandimsorryhiscommentwasdeletedsomehowalongwithshanekomine.com "
by John Sickels on
Feb 21, 2006 7:42 PM EST
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Question about GB/FB ratios
by mikbre on
Feb 21, 2006 8:27 PM EST
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My Ranking
- Cain
- Billingsly
- Verlander
- Liriano.
Liriano is the highest injury risk of all. He missed most of two minor league seasons before the AJ trade.
As a Giants fan, I'm really worried about Bilingsley. I might rank him #1 except I just can't bring myself to do that. On the other hand, I'm sure the baseball gods will punish me for being so excited about Cain.
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 21, 2006 8:30 PM EST
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velocity
what next?
Guys with better control are wimps? Worse control are no good?
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 12:21 AM EST
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Whatthehell........
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 1:06 AM EST
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cause
If you have concerns on mechanics or build or something else then ok. But I have never ever heard that higher velocity causes injuries.
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 1:58 AM EST
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Pedrophile is a little tough on the eyes, but...
Have a good one!
by abbreviatedman on
Feb 22, 2006 2:45 AM EST
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Bill James argued that ...
I guess it depends. Your eyes probably won't let you down if you can accurately judge who's straining themselves regularly and who's throwing with a natural and easy movement.
If you run down the list of the hardest throwers, they seemed to have longish careers to me. But there's probably a lot of self-selective bias there -- you remember the hard throwers who lasted, and not the hard throwers who blew out, just because they weren't around as long to provide as many memorable moments.
by Flynn Blake on
Feb 22, 2006 3:45 AM EST
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yes
I think the hard throwers that were not max effort may last longer. May. Good mechanics and non max effort I think are the two keys.
That is why a guy like Zumaya worries me. Max effort. How can he get control and stay healthy? Another is the prospect the Jays just cut with the great slider. Gaudin. Just don't see him putting it together and staying healthy.
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 3:51 AM EST
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If by "cut" you mean traded..
by nms on
Feb 22, 2006 11:12 AM EST
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yes
Did the Jays actually get anything decent for him?
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 2:05 PM EST
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PTBNL
by jpahk on
Feb 22, 2006 6:29 PM EST
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Dustin Majewski
by nms on
Feb 22, 2006 9:45 PM EST
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comments
We do hear about guys that throw hard getting injured. And we also hear about guys that don't throw hard getting injured.
Sure - some hardthrowers will overthrow. Some softer throwers do this cause they don't throw hard enough. Kris Honel ruined his career doing this exact thing. Would be interesting if there was a quality study on this.
I guess I came out attacking cause it seems you resent another prospect being picked higher than Cain and used what seemed to me silly comments.
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 3:48 AM EST
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Resent?
I've never seen Verlander pitch. I have seen Cain pitch several times, in person in the minors and on TV in the majors. He has excellent mechanics and does not appear to be coming anything close to maximum effort. I have commented several times, as has Felipe Alou, that Cain reminds me of a young Tom Seaver. Seaver was the king of mechanics. Whether or not Cain comes close to Seaver's career is, of course, a longshot just by the nature of the business, but Cain has it all going.
Verlander definitely has had command issues in the not so distant past. Yes, he had a great run in singe A, but his cup of coffee wasn't too impressive now, was it? Were his command issues due to max effort? I don't know, but higher velocity requires more propulsive force. Muscles subjected to more force are more likely to fail.
As for Liriano, I know he's the darling of this board right now. His cup of coffee wasn't so hot either, was it? I've seen several references to Cain's stress reaction from 2003. Well, if you are going to make past injuries an issue, what about Liriano missing almost all of 2002 and 2003?
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 9:19 AM EST
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Verlander
The reason I thought it was resentment was it seemed you were stretching to put down Verlander.
Verlander did dominate in AA as well. And his cup of coffee was 2 games. Even Felix got lit-up a couple times. Felix when in trouble overthrew. Then he learned his lesson. Verlander did the same. We will see this year if he learned from it.
As for the physics side that is wrong. The muscles are not subjected to the force. The muscles generate the force. Injuries happen when muscles are tired or overextended due to bad mechanics.
More often you will see a power pitcher rein back on his power for more control and also less energy. These are able to prevent injury better IMO.
Yes - Liriano is a big injury risk. His cup of coffee does not worry me, the other numbers K/BB were so good. But you are right to question his health - and 190+ innings was a bit much for him. I do think he has more talent then Cain & Billingsley. But how he will hold up I don't know.
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 2:16 PM EST
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Logic and Physics
True, muscles generate force, but they are attached to bones by tendons. You don't think there is force placed on those structures? What causes muscle tears if not force? Why did Armando Benitez' hamstring tendons tear off his pelvic bone if it wasn't due to the force of the muscle contraction. What causes ulnar collateral ligaments to tear if it's not due to the force of muscles pulling bones apart? Muscles don't apply force directly to the ball. They exert it on other anatomic structures that in turn apply it to the ball. I don't claim to be a physicist, but isn't there a basic Law of Physics that stated for every force there is an equal and opposite force? or at least something to that effect?
Maybe we just don't hear about the soft thrower's injuries, I guess Tommy John himself wasn't much of a velocity guy, but most of the guys who I remember blowing out elbows could bring it pretty good: Koufax, Wayne Simpson, Eric Gagne, Kerry Wood, AJ Burnett, Jesse Foppert, etc.
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 8:41 PM EST
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Koufax did blow out his elbow
by ssjames on
Feb 23, 2006 1:19 AM EST
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Koufax
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 23, 2006 8:38 AM EST
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Koufax
As for velocity and injury, I think the mechanics of the velocity is crucial. Some of the greatest, hardest throwers (Ryan, Seaver, Clemens) derived their power predominantly from their legs. And when they did have injuries, it tended to be groin problems. They rarely had arm woes because that wasn't where the greatest stress/power was being generated. The "whip" velocity guys are more prone to elbow and shoulder problems I believe. But, in general, I don't believe pitching injuries can be predicted, anymore than I think knee injuries in NFL RBs can be predicted. Sometimes they're gonna happen.
by Roger on
Feb 23, 2006 2:06 PM EST
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hmmm
Liriano #4...
(I got nothing to say, just saying )
by hotshotschamp on
Feb 21, 2006 11:09 PM EST
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Biased?
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 1:10 AM EST
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Just when I thought you are an idiot...
So you might off the hook; you might not be an idiot. Simply a near-blind victim of a bad public school education.
That assumes, however, that one agrees that Sabean's only error as GM has been dumping Liriano PLUS for an AJ rental. Unfortunately, if one accepts that assumption in the face of all the evidence, I am back to the thinking you are an idiot scenario.
Question: What is it about the Bay-area that turns its readers of this blog into rabid homers when most readers are just looking for some insight and intelligent discourse? Residual effects of the Haight-Ashbury days?
by conig166 on
Feb 22, 2006 2:33 AM EST
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Hey, be nice!
Honestly, if you're looking for insight and intellectual discourse, don't spend your time making a point in an aggressive and disrespectful way.
P.S. I'm trying to be a voice of reason here, I'm sorry if I'm attacking the attacker, it's hard not to! I mean no disrespect, I'm just trying to keep things civil.
by abbreviatedman on
Feb 22, 2006 2:41 AM EST
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Your argument makes a lot of sense
by niallmack on
Feb 22, 2006 2:52 AM EST
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Especially since your rampage was
"but Nathan is about the only pitching prospect Sabean has ever traded who amounted to anything."
Since when is a 5.70ERA last year technically isn't amounting to anything, he could cut off his thumb chopping broccoli or get attacked by a crazy Red Sox fan at a bar and lose an eye.
by niallmack on
Feb 22, 2006 3:02 AM EST
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Dude...
Question: What is it about 12 yr old kids and the internet that inspires them to abandon all rules of social decorum and belittle people in a thinly vailed attempt to assuage doubts of their own self worth?
by kenshin1 on
Feb 22, 2006 8:13 AM EST
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I'm not necessarily knocking you...
Of course, again, I'm not knocking you. (You've gotta be careful what you say on these boards sometimes, eh, gotta make sure you're not seen as attacking. Also, don't make direct eye contact. And don't run. Never run.) And Sabean was right from his perspective at the time to include Liriano, he was just a live arm at the time who'd been injured the previous couple of years.
Trading a 1.06 WHIP pitcher with more than a K an inning for one year of a mediocre hitting catcher is rather foolish, though, you've gotta admit.
And also, you should never, EVER, trade a guy with as cool a name as Boof Bonser.
by abbreviatedman on
Feb 22, 2006 2:36 AM EST
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Sabean
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 9:31 AM EST
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Merkin
They also picked up Valdez in the Ortiz/Moss deal. Not especially bad when you consider they got him and spun Moss off as part of a trade package
by nms on
Feb 22, 2006 11:17 AM EST
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Valdez
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 3:18 PM EST
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They did
by nms on
Feb 22, 2006 9:46 PM EST
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Not Getting Younger
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 11:15 PM EST
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Foulke
by pedrophile on
Feb 22, 2006 4:01 AM EST
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Foulke?
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 9:24 AM EST
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Not 5-6 years later
by cdamon on
Feb 22, 2006 10:45 AM EST
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5-6 years down the road?
by slurve on
Feb 22, 2006 9:55 AM EST
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OK
by DrBGiantsfan on
Feb 22, 2006 11:00 AM EST
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Interestingly
by Roger on
Feb 23, 2006 3:19 PM EST
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billinglsey
"
Billingsley: Billingsley was a first round pick in 2003, 24th overall, out of high school in Defiance, Ohio."
So he was the second prize winner ever from Defiance, Ohio. Ijust hope his husband treats him better.
by levski on
Feb 22, 2006 12:17 PM EST
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conig166
LOL, believe me most Bay Area people, no matter what the perception is, are not high or all hippies. I dont know about A's fans, but Giants fans do fill the park and like A's fans are excited about our team year in and year out. We have a big treat whenever we go to the park (cough, cough #25) and we love to see baseball played.
I am a Giants fan but I respect all baseball.
Even though I like Cain a whole lot and thinks he can be great...I would say that right now I would ahve to rank the pitchers this way:
Liriano
ILL ADMIT I have never seen Verlander pitch but if he can maintain 98 mph fastballs late into the game with a decent breaking ball and curve (according to scouting reports) then he should be 2nd
Cain
Bills
by z4 landshark on
Feb 23, 2006 12:27 AM EST
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in my opinion
by Opheliakesal on
Dec 20, 2006 1:51 AM EST
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