Arizona Diamondbacks Top 20 Prospects
ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS TOP 20 PROSPECTS
- Carlos Quentin, OF, Grade A
- Stephen Drew, SS, Grade A-
- Chris Young, OF, A-
- Justin Upton, SS, A-
- Conor Jackson, 1B, A-
- Matt Torra, RHP, B+
- Carlos Gonzalez, OF, B+
- Dustin Nippert, RHP, B
- Garrett Mock, RHP, B
- Micah Owings, RHP, B-
- Enrique Gonzalez, RHP, B-
- Cesar Nicholas, 1B, B-
- Chris Carter, DH, C+
- Miguel Montero, C, C+
- Ross Ohlendorf, RHP, C+
- Matt Green, RHP, C+
- Brandon Medders, RHP, C+
- Greg Smith, LHP, C+
- Jason Bulger, RHP, C
- Matt Chico, LHP, C
I expect some of this will be controversial at the top. I prefer Quentin over Drew and Jackson for the non-objective reason that he looks like one hell of a player to me on a personal scouting basis. Drew has more athleticism and Jackson is more polished in some ways as a hitter, but Quentin has the best combination (in my opinion) of athleticism, skills, enthusiasm, and work ethic. I fully recognize that not everyone will agree with that. Drew has a higher ceiling, I admit, but I think it more likely that Quentin will reach his.
I love Chris Young and I can't believe the White Sox traded him.
Justin Upton, once he plays, will likely be at the top of this list next year. I just didn't want to rank him ahead of the other guys without actually having some game data to go on.
Pitching depth is less impressive, but Nippert has been a long-term favorite, and Mock is one of the biggest pitching sleepers in the minors. I've also liked Micah Owings since his college days.
Nicholas and Carter have booming bats but positional questions.
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Comments
Lester
by Wilhelm Scream on Feb 20, 2006 10:52 AM EST 0 recs
Ugh
As far as this list goes...
I don't have a problem with placing Upton underneath the other more polished guys, especially since we've never seen him play pro ball.
I have a quick question, not ENTIRELY related to the Diamondbacks, but more along the SS Number 1 pick type line...
What happened to Matt Bush? When he was picked wasn't he the concensus number 1 overall? Is there any chance in heck that Upton falls on his face like Bush did? I understand they're worlds apart in talent... but sure fire number one's have failed before. Two I can think of in recent memory.
by Wilhelm Scream on
Feb 20, 2006 10:55 AM EST
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Bush....
In the interested of including something about the the Arizona list in a reply in this section, I'd just like to say... wow! The D'backs look sick. They really have to get their hands on a pitcher or two, but this team is going to have a tons of money with all the cheap super-prospects coming up. Any chance they try to move Upton or Drew to 2b or 3b to get them on the field at the same time as their 3 OF propects and Jackson at 1B?
by grozzy on
Feb 20, 2006 11:16 AM EST
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Bush
After he was drafted he got into a fight at a nightclub and the team thought of voiding his contract.
Some people say it was also a money saving move, I don't have the figures in front of me but he might have been slightly cheaper than Verlander but not by much.
In H.S. his arm was his best tool, couldn't he hit 90 on the radar gun?
I have heard that he had major league ready defense when he was drafted but he had a bunch of errors in his first full year so I don't think that's true.
He just has no slugging ability and the fact that the Padres call Petco home will not help him.
I think Dayn Perry has said he won't even make it to the majors.
by colinadam on
Feb 20, 2006 11:19 AM EST
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I've been waiting for years to do this...
Thanks. Thanks. Tip your waitress.
by multiphasic on
Feb 20, 2006 5:34 PM EST
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Top 11
by TCapone30 on Feb 20, 2006 11:31 AM EST 0 recs
Quentin
I still don't know why the DBacks traded for the starting right fielder on the All-Overrated Team, Shawn Green. Since they apparently don't want CQ to play CF, they're going to have to move Luis Gonzalez. I can't see why they would let CQ sit in the minors for another year after the destruction he caused in AAA.
by lenred on Feb 20, 2006 12:15 PM EST 0 recs
Jackson
by eastin on Feb 20, 2006 12:16 PM EST 0 recs
Agreed
by Flynn Blake on
Feb 20, 2006 1:56 PM EST
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Seems to me
by abbreviatedman on Feb 20, 2006 1:54 PM EST 0 recs
I agree....
by daveh33 on
Feb 20, 2006 4:17 PM EST
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Ballpark factors
Guess who had a higher Isolated Power? Young's was .268, Kemp's was .263. And Kemp hit something like 22 of his 27 HRs at home.
And Young played a level higher. Check out the K/BB rates as well; Young's is superior. As is his Isolated Discipline.
In short, there's little reason to like Kemp more.
by limozeen on
Feb 20, 2006 4:51 PM EST
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I would still rate Young higher......
by daveh33 on
Feb 20, 2006 6:16 PM EST
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That's fine
by limozeen on
Feb 20, 2006 8:49 PM EST
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BP's ranking of Chris Young
Center-Fielder UPSIDE, 2006-2010
Player UPSIDE
Jim Edmonds 248.3
Grady Sizemore 231.9
Chris Young 212.9
Andruw Jones 200.9
Carlos Beltran 182.7
Vernon Wells 179.9
Curtis Granderson 150.9
Ken Griffey 125.6
Brad Wilkerson 110.9
by William K on
Feb 20, 2006 9:09 PM EST
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Chris Young
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 20, 2006 10:29 PM EST
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disagree about Chris Young and Matt Kemp
Chris Young is a 22 year old CF who OPSed 922 in AAA.
.277/.377/.545/922. He scored 100 runs. In just 466 at bats... He was 32/38 in SB's. 26 homers and 40 doubles. isoP of 268. That's VERY VERY good, especially out of a CF. He's still slightly younger than the norm. He has serious power, and also drew 70 walks. The contact rate is a little less than desired, but i think he's comparable to Andy Marte at the plate (not to mention VERY comparable to Mike Cameron overall).
Matt Kemp hit .306/.349/.569/918 as a 21 year old in high A. If i'm not mistaken, Vero Beach is a pretty large pitchers park. He has bad plate discipline with a 25/92 BB/K ratio, which won't play up at the next level (see: Joel Guzman and Andy Laroche). He has great raw power though, comparable to Youngs. He was also 23/29 in SB's, worse than Young. He also hit 21 doubles, which is not a good sign IMO when he's hitting more homers than doubles. That combined with the plate discipline has me thinking that he's very very aggresive and just goes for home runs all the time. Kemp did all this in 416 at bats.
Young is a level higher, better numbers all around, is better defensively, and also plays a more premier position. They're on the same track (22 at AA). I think Kemp will be somewhat exposed like Guzman and Laroche.
by ohad on
Feb 20, 2006 5:07 PM EST
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neither player is a favorite of mine....
by daveh33 on
Feb 20, 2006 6:14 PM EST
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kemp
your analysts of laroche as having bad plate discipline isnt accurate. his ISOd was .94 and he walked in 12+ percent of his PAs in AA.
by npurcell on
Feb 20, 2006 10:28 PM EST
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Ohad...
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 20, 2006 10:34 PM EST
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torra! torra! torra!
mock mock mock
no, those don't work quite as well
by wily mo on Feb 20, 2006 2:04 PM EST 0 recs
upton
by thook007 on Feb 20, 2006 2:13 PM EST 0 recs
The Legend Of Conor Jackson
How can this be? Why is Loney's hitting only 11 HR's in a very pitcher-friendly Double A league, playing half his games in the league's most pitcher-friendly park (Jacksonville), at age 21, such a black mark against Loney, but nobody seems to have a problem with Jackson, at age 23, hitting a mere 8 HR's in one of the most hitter-friendly leagues in baseball, playing his home games in one of the most extreme hitter's parks in that league (Tucson)? In fairness, let me point out that Jackson missed some time, playing only 93 games in Triple A, or 45 games fewer than Loney played in the minors in 2005. Fine, Jackson played only about two-thirds of Loney's season, so lets adjust for the disparity and increase Jackson's home run totals by a half, raising Jackson from 8 to a full 12 HR's. There. The 23-year-old first base prospect who doesn't play his position well hit the equivalent of 12 home runs in a season playing in launching pad parks. In 2007, when Loney turns 23 on May 7, 2007, if he were the first baseman in Tuscon (for the sake of argument let's just assume a trade to the Diamondbacks), does anybody think Loney would hit a mere 12 HR's over the season, given that two years earlier, as a less-developed player, both physically and skills-wise, he had hit 11 HR's playing in a league and home park that for pitcher-friendliness compares to the Pacific Coast League and Tucson like Shea Stadium compares to Coors Field? If you say yes, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.
A couple of days ago, John justified his giving Loney a "C+" by saying that Loney has not lived up to expectations. I do agree that Loney has not lived up to expectations. He was expected to have developed more power than he has by now. After Loney torched the Pioneer League and played in the Florida State league as an 18-year-old, Loney was talked about as a future star. If Loney had lived up to expectations, he would no doubt either be in the majors already, or he would at least rate an "A" grade as a prospect right now. Clearly Loney is not an "A" prospect, or an "A-" prospect. Loney right now projects to be a great defensive first base man in the majors who hits for a high average (.285 to .300), draws enough walks to have a .350 to .365 OBA, and hits between 18 to 20 HR's. As long as he is not too expensive, and as long as more HR power is coming from other positions on a team, THAT kind of first baseman is a good, valuable player. Not a "star" by any means, but a good player. A first baseman with 20-homers-a-year-power is just not going to be considered a star. Two things to note now: a prospect who projects to be the above-outlined player deserves better than a "C+" grade. Not an "A-", but a "B" certainly. Second, Conor Jackson projects to be pretty much the same player I outlined above. 18 to 20 HR's a year to go along with a high batting average. Maybe add some more walks, and take away the great defense at first base. The extra walks and inferior defense cancel each other out in my mind, so what we are left with, in my view, is Conor Jackson meriting a grade of "B" as a prospect, the same grade I think Loney deserves. Loney and Jackson, cosmically related. Given their respective skin pigmentations, I'm tempted to start humming "Ebony and Ivory"...
by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 3:34 PM EST 0 recs
Response
Loney might be valuable to a team, but he can't hit for more than a .420 slugging percentage against minor league competition, park factors or not, I'm not sure that anybody will give him a chance. Loney might be the type who hits .280 with 15-18 HRs a year at 1B, but Jackson will likely be a legit perennial .300+ hitter with the ability to challenge for batting crowns, to go with a huge OBP. No matter how good Loney's defense is, it won't overcome Jackson's overall production (and it probably won't come close, for that matter). Mind you, this is assuming that something doesn't change for Loney in the next few years - but so far, he hasn't exactly given anybody much of a reason to believe otherwise.
by mrkupe on
Feb 20, 2006 4:12 PM EST
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Jackson/Loney
by eastin on
Feb 20, 2006 4:16 PM EST
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geez
conor jackson has unbelievable plate discipline. not good, not even merely great, but absolutely killer. in AAA he had a 69/32 K/BB ratio; in 2004 it was 69/72 across two levels. jackson hits for an extremely high batting average--.354 last year, well over .300 at every stop of the minors. in hitter's parks, certainly, but you can't explain away 100 points of batting average using park effects. how can you look at him and james loney and say "these are both 1B who hit for below-average power"? please. that is their only similarity. if james loney ever puts up a 350/450/550 line in las vegas, then we can compare them. but it's not going to happen. he's nowhere near the hitter than jackson is, so why should we care that he might play good defense? these guys are 1Bs, for crying out loud.
by jpahk on
Feb 20, 2006 4:22 PM EST
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Canuck
Jackson is an atypical first baseman, but his lower level ceiling is still former D-Backs prospect Lyle Overbay -- a good average, great OBP doubles machine. His career is a reasonable bet to wind up in the Olerud/Will Clark mold. If he develops power, he's a top 5 player. If Loney develops power, he's still only going to have a middling average and OK OBP. At 1B, that's, if anything, slightly above average.
It's a reasonable beef to claim that John underrates Loney. But Jackson is not a good comp for you. Come back when Loney puts up an IsoD of .102 while hitting .350 and slugging .530.
And if you do, please check the underhanded racist and Holocaust-denier references at the door.
by limozeen on
Feb 20, 2006 5:14 PM EST
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That's right
by PooNani on
Feb 20, 2006 6:03 PM EST
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what a bitter dodgers fan
Can't you just be happy that John (and people on this site) rated the Dodgers as having the top farm in baseball? What is this desire to come up with some random reasons to belittle a player in another system, especially by offering such rather ridiculous arguments and comparisons?
The reality is, Jackson has lived up to the expectations that come with being a first round pick, has raked everywhere he's played in the minors, and deservedly is penciled in as the starting 1bman in AZ this year. Scouts and statheads agree that there is a lot to like about him, and I think he can be an all-star quality player for many years.
Loney, despite the hype, has never lived up to the expectations people had of him. You can make all the projections you want, and hypothesize about his future all day long, but until Loney delivers at the plate, and starts fulfilling his promise, he will always be penalized in these rankings. As it should be.
by levski on Feb 20, 2006 4:27 PM EST 0 recs
Levski
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 20, 2006 4:57 PM EST
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ad hominem attacks?
Your "sound, reasonable analysis" is just a bunch of handwaving and "what if" suggestions. Anyone can come up with just a "sound, reasonable analysis" for why Jackson is by far a better prospect than Loney. In fact, it appears that John Sickels, the guys on Baseball America, and a quite a few other respectable sourses (not to mention several posters in this thread alone) have offered very "sound, reasonable analysis" in support of Jackson.
I agree this is not about emotions, but reason. I just don't find your arguments reasonable, and I think they're more based on emotion than actually a lot of common sense. Thus my comment. The last thing I want is to make ad hominem attacks; I can't be bothered to attack a random guy on an internet board, and I certainly wouldn't do that on John's site.
Finally, where do you come up with the Holocaust crap? Has anyone mentioned anything about the Holocaust here? How is that related to anything talked about in this thread? Why don't you list a whole bunch of other, totally unrelated experiences and conversations that you may have had in the past, and use those to tell everyone why Loney is a better prospect than Jackson?
In the end, Loney may flame out just as easily as the great trio of Edwin Jackson, Joel Hanrahan and Greg Miller, who a while back were the best 1-2-3 combo in the minors (according to guys who believe in the Holocaust, mind you) and are now not even on LA's top 20 list. When Loney puts up a couple of seasons that allow statheads and scouts to predict with decent degree of certainty that he will a) make the majors; and b) become a good or even great player, then you can come back and write "I told you so".
Until then, I have nothing more to say to you.
by levski on
Feb 20, 2006 5:16 PM EST
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Holocaust Argument Reference
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 20, 2006 6:11 PM EST
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As a Jew
As far as the players, I agree that Loney is an underrated prospect, to the point of a B grade, but I don't think Jackson is necessarily overrated, because anyone who can double his walks to strikeouts should be considered phenomenal. Also, given the lack of other incredible 1b prospects (did someone whisper Barton?) I think it's fair to give Jackson a pretty high grade, because part of grading is what position the player plays, and if you have a Chase Utley who would be considered a great-but-not-phenomenal 1b playing 2b, suddenly he's the best or second best 2b in the majors, and has an A grade (for that position)
by mroak89 on
Feb 21, 2006 12:00 PM EST
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"ridiculous arguments"
And I'll second another poster in this thread who suggested that Canuck leaves out racism insinuations or Hollocaust references out of this board. The last thing anyone here needs is a flaming war on race, politics, history.
by levski on
Feb 20, 2006 5:25 PM EST
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Oh, brother...
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 20, 2006 5:40 PM EST
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LOL
Reread your "ebony and ivory" comments. I couldn't help but feel that there were some racial implications in that post. And I wasn't the only one who felt that way on this thread, it appears.
Anyhow, I am simple-minded enough to have learned my lesson to not engage in "intellectual discussions" with you ever again. You have yourself a great day. And keep that James Loney card safe and sound.
by levski on
Feb 20, 2006 5:48 PM EST
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a question about Matt Elliot
You didn't mention him here, even though he had a ridiculously good season in South Bend. What is it that you don't like (or maybe like?) about him? And where is the love for Jason Neighborgall and his electric fastball? :)
Also, a minor point, but I'd have thought that Nippert would rank just a notch higher, maybe as a B+. Finally, nice to see Chico on the list. He will be better this time around in AA. I am glad no one took him in the rule 5.
Btw, I finally registered to post here, despite being a long time lurker. You've got a great site, John. Keep up the excellent work.
by levski on Feb 20, 2006 4:32 PM EST 0 recs
levski...
Its a shame, because hes smart and hardworking, but its going to take a full overhaul of everything (especially mentally) to get anything out of him.
by nms on
Feb 20, 2006 8:38 PM EST
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Career Comparisons
by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 4:41 PM EST 0 recs
loney's projection
That projection, along with $1.26, can get you a cup of coffee at any Dunkin Donuts location, and a donut for another 79 cents.
Which should at least keep you warm and fed just in case Loney never actually makes the majors. It'll be an astrological crime, such a projection, unrealized.
by levski on
Feb 20, 2006 4:45 PM EST
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Jackson & Loney
I don't think Loney was necessarily given a bad grade, but I agree that Jackson is too high. His best season for power was in 2004: 17 HRs shared between the Cal and Texas leagues. He has been hitting doubles, but I am starting to doubt that the power will show. I think he is a solid B or weak B+, but not an A or A-. If the ball was not flying over the wall in the PCL, how can we just assume it will in Arizona? That's why he is more likely a B for me.
by count sutton on
Feb 20, 2006 5:20 PM EST
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Again, Levski...
But I will say that there IS a point in there worth addressing. Since I have CONCEDED, in my first post, that Jackson is PERCEIVED as a much better prospect than Loney (wrongly, I have argued), it does stand to reason that Jackson will get a lot more benefits of the doubt if he should struggle at all in the majors than Loney would. I'll go on the record right now and say that I believe many prospects "fail" simply because they are not given the chances they deserve, while other prospects "succeed" because they are handed opportunity after opportunity. A few years ago, Eric Gagne's struggles in the majors as a starter put his MLB career on thin ice. If the Dodgers hadn't lacked a closer at just the right time, who knows what could have happened to Gagne? He wasn't "meeting expectations," but the need for a hard-thrower in the back of the Dodgers' bullpen opened up a window of opportunity for Gagne. Right now, in the majors, a one-time first base prospect arguably more highly regarded in his time than Jackson is currently, Hee-Seop Choi, is regarded as a huge failure by everybody IN baseball, and his MLB future is in serious doubt, even if Baseball Prospectus and statheads still love him. Choi has not "met expectations" as far as the Dodgers are concerned, and he will be relegated to the bench this year (behind Garciaparra) or demoted to Triple A. The Cubs and Marlins jettisoned him as well for being a perceived disappointment. Will Loney not get a chance in the majors? It is "possible," I suppose. But I think he will, because the Dodgers right now, even without Loney ever playing a single game in Triple A, regard Loney as a better first baseman, and hitter, than Choi, and it is what the Dodgers think that will determine how much of an MLB chance he ultimately gets. I do think Choi is being undervalued, however. Unfortunately that happens in baseball, even to guys who at one point, when they were prospects, looked like future stars.
by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 5:30 PM EST 0 recs
Here's what I don't understand
Loney has OK contact, OK doubles power, and OK plate discipline. He's got a higher power ceiling, but he's still got a much longer way to go.
Jacksons's skills have him as at least an above-average, if atypical, MLB first baseman. If he develops one skill -- power -- he's a superstar.
Loney's skills have him as a below-average MLB first baseman right now. If he develops one skill -- power (which he might have a better chance of developing than Jackson, I will grant) -- he becomes...an average MLB first baseman. Jackson will still be worth more, even if he doesn't develop power, because his other skills are tremendous.
As I said, it could be debated that Loney is rated too low. I really don't think Jackson is a good example of a player ranked too high, though, nor do I think it's at all hard to confuse who the better prospect is between Jackson and Loney. As the skills indicate, it's really not close.
by limozeen on
Feb 20, 2006 9:00 PM EST
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Limozeen...
You talk about Jackson's contact skills, doubles power, and plate discipline versus Loney's skills in those areas. Two things to say about that. First, differences in batting average and doubles can be wholly accounted for by the age, league, and home park differences. Second, league and park factors are not issues where plate discipline is concerned, but age relative to quality of competition can play a big role in determining mumber of walks and strikeouts. When Loney is two year's older than he is now, will his skills not have improved over what they were when he was 21? If you say no, you are assuming something that does not seem very likely. Loney's walks could easily have been near or at Jackson's level if he had been two years older than he actually was in 2005 and was playing only one level higher than he actually played in 2005. As it is, by the time Loney is the age Jackson was in 2005, Loney won't likely be in Triple A at all (like Jackson was at age 23), he will instead be the Dodgers' starting first baseman, in 2007.
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 20, 2006 10:10 PM EST
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A few things
First, there's no need to bring in the straw man of Stephen Drew.
Second, Jackson has done all that you can ask of a college hitter. He's dominated every level and advanced a level every year. He made a flawless AA transition and crushed AAA. You cannot punish Jackson for being too old because he's dominated every level and advanced exactly as you'd hope a college player would. Unless you're saying that all college players are inferior to high school prospects who haven't realized their potential. Another thing: Jackson's 23! He's not old! He's only a half-year behind Loney's path so far, but he's realized much of his potential. Loney is still an unknown quantity. I'm not saying that Loney can't be a good player. He's just not as good of a prospect as Jackson.
Finally, I'd challenge you to back up the statement that walks are a product of age relative to league. This is simply not true. For most players, they either have the ability to walk or don't. Loney has a nice walk rate, but Jackson's is otherworldy. Loney strikes out a lot more than Jackson, and that's not just because he's 21 years old instead of 23.
by limozeen on
Feb 20, 2006 10:33 PM EST
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Should read:
by limozeen on
Feb 20, 2006 10:34 PM EST
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Nature Vs. Nurture
You are probably aware that the subject of whether plate discipline is "learned" or someone has to be "born with it" is a HUGE controversy among people in baseball or who write about baseball. I come down on the side of the "learned behavior" school of thought. We're not going to settle the debate to each other's satisfaction, I am sure, but do you honestly believed that if Loney played in Double A in 2006 again he would walk just as much as he walked in 2005, and strike out as much as he struck out in 2005? Highly improbable, unless Loney's development completely stagnated between his age 21 and age 22 seasons.
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 20, 2006 11:07 PM EST
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okay
stephen drew's 100 ABs in double A are not as meaningful as literally thousands upon thousands of ABs by other players which tell us what the differences are in the minors between levels and parks. drew really is irrelevant to this discussion--what you want to be saying is that the southern league is a tougher place to hit than the environments that jackson has hit in. fine.
but let's not overstate these differences. just because loney is two years younger than jackson doesn't mean (or even come close to meaning) that he'll be as good as jackson in two years. dominating a level is dominating a level, and that's exactly what jackson has always done despite never being old for the level. now, there's a lot to be said for holding your own in an advanced league at a young age, but even if you want to compare loney's 2005 (284/357/419 in jax) to jackson's 2003 (319/410/533 in yakima) at the same age, jackson has the better translated stats.
even if they were equal, though, or even if loney has the edge, you simply cannot ignore the fact that in the two years since, jackson has progressed several levels and dominated at every stop of the minors. there is absolutely no indication that loney will be able to match that, so he's nowhere near as good a prospect.
by jpahk on
Feb 20, 2006 11:38 PM EST
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Incorrect, Jpahk
In summation, the 21-year-old Loney thoroughly out-performed the 21-year-old Jackson, so there is no reason at all to think that the 23-year-old Loney, in 2007, will not at least be the equal of the 23-year-old Jackson. But as I said above, we will never be able to test my hypothesis by comparing the 23-year-old Jackson's Triple A stats with a 23-year-old Loney's Triple A stats, because after spending 2006 in Triple A as a 22- year-old, Loney will be a major leaguer as a 23-year-old in 2007 -- having made the majors earlier age-wise than Jackson was able to.
by CanuckDodger on
Feb 21, 2006 5:22 AM EST
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you cannot be convinced
outliers are outliers. could i not just as easily point to kevin melillo, who hit 286/399/457 in low A and then 282/347/519 in AA after being promoted and conclude that AA is actually an easier place to hit for power than low A? and yet, melillo had more AA at-bats than drew. isn't he therefore a more meaningful case?
also, there is still a world of difference between loney matching jackson's performance at 21 (let's assume he actually did, for the sake of argument) and loney ending up at the same place at age 23. jackson has had a fantastic last two years. pretty much any prospect would be thrilled to develop the way he has from age 21 to 23. so there is plenty of good reason to think that loney won't be able to. you can't just say that all prospects develop the same over those two years, so that at age 23 loney will be a stud.
finally--i'm not on board with the ad hominem attacks, but it seems to be shockingly arrogant behavior to repeatedly insist that yours is the only correct viewpoint and that everybody else is blind. you might want to tone down your posts, because it's hard to read them without coming to the conclusion that you're a jerk. and i'd really rather not come to that conclusion, because i don't actually know you at all.
by jpahk on
Feb 21, 2006 2:38 PM EST
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Loney vs. Jackson
But I forgot about his age-
Loney at 21 hit .284/.359/.419
but in a league (AA) that averaged .266/.335/.394
BUT in a pitchers park in that league (Park factor of 91 per BBPrimer)
That gives him an OPS+ north of 120
Jackson at 21 hit .319/.410/.533
in the North West League (rookie ball)
Yakima - Neutral Park- I don't know what the league is like.
then at 22 he hit .345/.438/.562 in Lancaster (Hi A)- Lancaster is an extreme run enviroment California League is the most hitter friendly full season league in baseball and Lancaster's Park factor is 119.
then at 22 (still- same year) he hit .301/.367/.456 in El Paso- the most hitter friendly AA park (shame it no longer has a AA team)
.284/.359/.419 in Jacksonville, Southern League
at 21 is a bit more impressive than 367/456 in El Paso at age 22.
But Jackson has a better contact rate, and Loney's 2005 was his second go at AA...
The minor league parks that Jackson has played in are just nuts- they make his performance look better than they really are- but every level he's played in that league's equivalent of Coors. His plate discipline is excellent, but his power is actually quite poor considering his park and league environments (not average- actually poor)
I think Overbay is a decent comp for Jackson, I also think Dave Magadan is also.
by Johnny Ruin on
Feb 21, 2006 5:13 PM EST
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jackson's comps
But I'm sure Jackson's Johnny Ruin comp list is much much better than PECOTA.
by levski on
Feb 21, 2006 5:23 PM EST
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Pecota comps
(I think Espy got hurt and failed to recover and/or develop)
McAnulty was vaguely interesting for awhile...
Actually he's only a year older than Conor and considering the difference in parks was not that far off Jackson in 2005 (doesn't have Conor's contact/ plate discipline though)
Most of the Pecota comps had shown more power (relative to league/park) than Conor has so far- Conor has better contact skills though.
Actually, I do like my comps better- BPro claims they use an era, park & League normalized DB- but a lot of their comps are even further off quality wise than BBRef's comps- which don't adjust for era or park.
I'd really like to see exactly how they generate their comps.
by Johnny Ruin on
Feb 21, 2006 6:27 PM EST
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comps
by levski on
Feb 21, 2006 7:24 PM EST
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system
System, what system?
Seriously, I have several years worth of minor league data in excel along with league and park #s.
I don't know how Bpro generates their comp scores- but some just seem nuts (Check out Billy Butler's- 2 of his top comps are similar only that at age 19 they were similar in report height & weight and also played professional baseball).
I translate #s on my own using park and league factors- and the result is usually similar to Bpros- but this year especially what I came up with and what Bpro came up for on AZ guys (and a few other teams) just can't be reconciled.
Tucson has a park factor of 1.32 (per Primer)
I turn that into an adjustment factor of about 1.145- my guess is that Bpro takes a home/road split to generate a park factor- turns it into an adjustment factor and THEN FURTHER REGRESSES IT TO THE MEAN- which would be ok if you had a park that seemed to jump all over the place from year to year, which many parks do- but the run environments in Az's parks have been pretty stable year to year- I see no reason to regress Tucson's weighted 3 year park factor's towards the mean.
The result (I believe) is that Bpro's translated EQAs for Ariz minor leaguers are uniformly too high (amd the translated ERAs for their pitchers are likewise too high- Webb SHOULD have been regarded as a stud pitching prospect by them- but wasn't)
by Johnny Ruin on
Feb 22, 2006 10:51 AM EST
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AZ's farm
Aside from Brad Penny, who was a very good pitcher very young, none of AZ's pitchers have ever ranked high on any prospect list. Guys like John Patterson or Chris Capuano or Brandon Webb were never thought of much. Ditto now for someone like Garrett Mock. I realize AZ never had great pitching prospects either, but there was a bias against AZ's pitchers.
OTOH, I admit that some hitting prospects received more hype than warranted because of Lancaster, El Paso and Tucson. But I do think that there is too much of a backlash against some of the genuinely good hitting prospects; too many pundits want to penalize them (and penalize them too much) because of their home parks. Guys like Durazo, Overbay and most recently Chad Tracy were almost always ranked lower than they should've been, imho, because of less than overwhelming stats in the minors.
In many ways, AZ's hitters suffer from the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" syndrome. If they hit really well in the minors, then well, they are supposed to because they hit in great parks. If they don't hit as well as they are supposed to, then they are not good enough. The knock on Chad Tracy, for example, was that he never hit for power, even though many scouts suggested that once he learned how to put just a bit more spin on the ball, many of his doubles would go for homers. I suppose now Chad Tracy is being discounted because there was nothing in his minor league record to suggest he'd hit 27 homers in a season.
Ditto for Jackson. People focus on the homers, and ignore the great plate discipline, the doubles, the contact rate, the force with which he hits the ball. If you have ever see him hit, you'd be amazed at how hard he his the ball. He sends screaming liners for doubles, not down the line squeezers. I also think that Conor was trying SO hard NOT to strike out last year that he kept some of his power out of his swing. I think he will adjust, and his K rate will increase some, but he will hit the ball with even more authority and power. And the BOB is great for line drive right handed hitters; Shea Hillenbrant looked like a slugger there. Jackson will be just fine.
Btw, Webb made the transition from double A El Paso to the majors. Yes, he should've been considered as a top prospect, but ultimately, I do not really care that much. In the end, I don't really care what people think about AZ's prospects; I care about how they do once they reach the majors. It seems EVERYONE on the internet is a top notch expert on prospects these days; I listen to what what John Sickels has to say, and the folks at BA have to say, and I put more weight on their opinions, but aside from that, in my book, everybody else is just wasting his time. So when a guy comes in and tells me that James Loney is a better prospect than Conor Jackson, my reaction is, "do you really think I give a rat's arse about your opinion?"


