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Arizona Diamondbacks Top 20 Prospects

ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS TOP 20 PROSPECTS

  1. Carlos Quentin, OF, Grade A
  2. Stephen Drew, SS, Grade A-
  3. Chris Young, OF, A-
  4. Justin Upton, SS, A-
  5. Conor Jackson, 1B, A-
  6. Matt Torra, RHP, B+
  7. Carlos Gonzalez, OF, B+
  8. Dustin Nippert, RHP, B
  9. Garrett Mock, RHP, B
  10. Micah Owings, RHP, B-
  11. Enrique Gonzalez, RHP, B-
  12. Cesar Nicholas, 1B, B-
  13. Chris Carter, DH, C+
  14. Miguel Montero, C, C+
  15. Ross Ohlendorf, RHP, C+
  16. Matt Green, RHP, C+
  17. Brandon Medders, RHP, C+
  18. Greg Smith, LHP, C+
  19. Jason Bulger, RHP, C
  20. Matt Chico, LHP, C
One hell of a farm system, although it thins out a bit more quickly than the Dodgers system.

I expect some of this will be controversial at the top. I prefer Quentin over Drew and Jackson for the non-objective reason that he looks like one hell of a player to me on a personal scouting basis. Drew has more athleticism and Jackson is more polished in some ways as a hitter, but Quentin has the best combination (in my opinion) of athleticism, skills, enthusiasm, and work ethic. I fully recognize that not everyone will agree with that. Drew has a higher ceiling, I admit, but I think it more likely that Quentin will reach his.

I love Chris Young and I can't believe the White Sox traded him.

Justin Upton, once he plays, will likely be at the top of this list next year. I just didn't want to rank him ahead of the other guys without actually having some game data to go on.

Pitching depth is less impressive, but Nippert has been a long-term favorite, and Mock is one of the biggest pitching sleepers in the minors. I've also liked Micah Owings since his college days.

Nicholas and Carter have booming bats but positional questions.

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Lester
isn't one of the top 65 prospects in baseball?

by Wilhelm Scream on Feb 20, 2006 10:52 AM EST   0 recs

Ugh
Wrong section! Merant to reply to the Top 50 baseball prospectus List.

As far as this list goes...

I don't have a problem with placing Upton underneath the other more polished guys, especially since we've never seen him play pro ball.

I have a quick question, not ENTIRELY related to the Diamondbacks, but more along the SS Number 1 pick type line...

What happened to Matt Bush? When he was picked wasn't he the concensus number 1 overall? Is there any chance in heck that Upton falls on his face like Bush did? I understand they're worlds apart in talent... but sure fire number one's have failed before. Two I can think of in recent memory.

by Wilhelm Scream on Feb 20, 2006 10:55 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Bush....
.... wasnt really a top hitting talent when he was drafted. He was known for having a great glove, which, from what I understand, he has maintained in the minors. There were questions about whether he could hit or not when he was picked and so far its pretty clear that he can't. I think his biggest selling point to the Padre's was signability, and to a lesser extent, the fact that he's a local boy.

In the interested of including something about the the Arizona list in a reply in this section, I'd just like to say... wow! The D'backs look sick. They really have to get their hands on a pitcher or two, but this team is going to have a tons of money with all the cheap super-prospects coming up. Any chance they try to move Upton or Drew to 2b or 3b to get them on the field at the same time as their 3 OF propects and Jackson at 1B?

by grozzy on Feb 20, 2006 11:16 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Bush
Bush was a top 10 talent, not #1. He was a local kid from San Diego who the Padres scouted. They thought of going with him (Not sure who else was on their list) and decided to draft him after Bush called them and said he would love to be drafted by the Padres.

After he was drafted he got into a fight at a nightclub and the team thought of voiding his contract.

Some people say it was also a money saving move, I don't have the figures in front of me but he might have been slightly cheaper than Verlander but not by much.

In H.S. his arm was his best tool, couldn't he hit 90 on the radar gun?
I have heard that he had major league ready defense when he was drafted but he had a bunch of errors in his first full year so I don't think that's true.

He just has no slugging ability and the fact that the Padres call Petco home will not help him.
I think Dayn Perry has said he won't even make it to the majors.

by colinadam on Feb 20, 2006 11:19 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I've been waiting for years to do this...
Matt Bush totally bites.

Thanks.  Thanks.  Tip your waitress.

by multiphasic on Feb 20, 2006 5:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Top 11
I like their top 11 better than any other team. I think LAD has a much better 12-20, though.

by TCapone30 on Feb 20, 2006 11:31 AM EST   0 recs

Quentin
When's he going to get his chance?  

I still don't know why the DBacks traded for the starting right fielder on the All-Overrated Team, Shawn Green.  Since they apparently don't want CQ to play CF, they're going to have to move Luis Gonzalez.  I can't see why they would let CQ sit in the minors for another year after the destruction he caused in AAA.

by lenred on Feb 20, 2006 12:15 PM EST   0 recs

Jackson
When Conor Jackson is only your 5th best prospect, you've got a hell of a farm system.

by eastin on Feb 20, 2006 12:16 PM EST   0 recs

Agreed
I think Quentin and Jackson are a tad overrated because of the AAA park they play in, but to have five A or A- players ... that looks so impressive regardless.

by Flynn Blake on Feb 20, 2006 1:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Seems to me
that no matter how much depth the Dodgers have, having five guys at A or A- should make you the best system.

by abbreviatedman on Feb 20, 2006 1:54 PM EST   0 recs

I agree....
...but I don't think they have 5 A/A- guys...I don't think Chris Young is that good, he seems more like a B+/B to me, let's put it this way, if Matt Kemp of the Dodgers is a C+, then no way do you give Chris Young an A-, I like Kemp better actually...I also don't think that Quentin deserves the solid A, he seems more like an A-...especially since I thought that John reserved the "A" for only the top 10 prospects or so...and I don't Quentin is in that group....top 20 maybe, top 10 a definite "no"....

by daveh33 on Feb 20, 2006 4:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ballpark factors
Kemp had a park with a 1.62 HR factor.  Chris Young had a park with a .55 HR factor.

Guess who had a higher Isolated Power?  Young's was .268, Kemp's was .263.  And Kemp hit something like 22 of his 27 HRs at home.

And Young played a level higher.  Check out the K/BB rates as well; Young's is superior.  As is his Isolated Discipline.

In short, there's little reason to like Kemp more.

by limozeen on Feb 20, 2006 4:51 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I would still rate Young higher......
...I just don't think he's an "A-"...B+ is fine...and as I replied to ohad, I'm not particularly fond of Young or Kemp...

by daveh33 on Feb 20, 2006 6:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

That's fine
I happen to agree with John and Baseball Prospectus on Young though.

by limozeen on Feb 20, 2006 8:49 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

BP's ranking of Chris Young
This appeared in an article regarding Brad Wilkerson (http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4772) but the table is BP's PECOTA projection for center-fielders in the next 5 years.  It might explain their ranking of Young as the top D'Backs prospect in their top 50.

Center-Fielder UPSIDE, 2006-2010
Player              UPSIDE
Jim Edmonds          248.3
Grady Sizemore       231.9
Chris Young          212.9
Andruw Jones         200.9
Carlos Beltran       182.7
Vernon Wells         179.9
Curtis Granderson    150.9
Ken Griffey          125.6
Brad Wilkerson       110.9

by William K on Feb 20, 2006 9:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Chris Young
Speaking as a Dodger fan who has been getting accused of dissing every other NL West team's prospects and touting Dodger prospects like they can't be beat, let me say that Chris Young is not only better than Kemp, he beats the Dodgers' Andy LaRoche too, and I would rank him with Billingsley and Guzman without a problem.  I would even treat seriously arguments that Young might deserve to rank ahead of both Billingsley and Guzman.  A good defensive center fielder who will STAY in center, steals bases, and hits like Young did in the Southern League at age 21 is a truly elite prospect.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 10:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

disagree about Chris Young and Matt Kemp
Is there really a comparison here? Put aside defense, where Young beats him and (and in CF no less).

Chris Young is a 22 year old CF who OPSed 922 in AAA.

.277/.377/.545/922. He scored 100 runs. In just 466 at bats... He was 32/38 in SB's. 26 homers and 40 doubles. isoP of 268. That's VERY VERY good, especially out of a CF. He's still slightly younger than the norm. He has serious power, and also drew 70 walks. The contact rate is a little less than desired, but i think he's comparable to Andy Marte at the plate (not to mention VERY comparable to Mike Cameron overall).

Matt Kemp hit .306/.349/.569/918 as a 21 year old in high A. If i'm not mistaken, Vero Beach is a pretty large pitchers park. He has bad plate discipline with a 25/92 BB/K ratio, which won't play up at the next level (see: Joel Guzman and Andy Laroche). He has great raw power though, comparable to Youngs. He was also 23/29  in SB's, worse than Young. He also hit 21 doubles, which is not a good sign IMO when he's hitting more homers than doubles. That combined with the plate discipline has me thinking that he's very very aggresive and just goes for home runs all the time. Kemp did all this in 416 at bats.

Young is a level higher, better numbers all around, is better defensively, and also plays a more premier position. They're on the same track (22 at AA). I think Kemp will be somewhat exposed like Guzman and Laroche.

www.faketeams.com SportsBlogs' own all-sport fantasy blog. Check it out.

by ohad on Feb 20, 2006 5:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

neither player is a favorite of mine....
...I just slightly like Kemp more...

by daveh33 on Feb 20, 2006 6:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

kemp
kemp was actually 20 last yr. he didnt turn 21 until end of september.

your analysts of laroche as having bad plate discipline isnt accurate. his ISOd was .94 and he walked in 12+ percent of his PAs in AA.

by npurcell on Feb 20, 2006 10:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Ohad...
Young and Kemp's birthdays are in September, atfer the minor league season is over, so they played as 21 and 20 year olds respectively in 2005.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 10:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

torra! torra! torra!
nippert nippert nippert

mock mock mock

no, those don't work quite as well

by wily mo on Feb 20, 2006 2:04 PM EST   0 recs

upton
he used to play on my brother's aau team and i remember thinking this kid is going to be great, he then went back to play for a team in virginia beach, the Virginia Blasters, which has produced David Winfree (twins minor league hitter of the year), David Wright, Ryan Pond (starter and future draft pick at NC State),BJ Upton, and others.  So seeing the way the others produced and remembering how well he played back then; I believe he will outperform all the other prospects in Arizona. the only question is at what position.  
Talent can not make up for hard work.

by thook007 on Feb 20, 2006 2:13 PM EST   0 recs

The Legend Of Conor Jackson
As a Dodger fan who has argued, at this message board and at others, that James Loney is underrated, I find Conor Jackson, and his "story" as a prospect, to be fascinating.  If I believed in astrology, I would say Loney and Jackson are cosmically related.  They share the same birthday, May 7, but Loney was born two years later than Jackson.  They were both drafted 19th overall in the first round, one year apart.  They both play first base, while having less-than-ideal power for first basemen.  But, interestingly, while Loney's lack of power is mentioned by John and Baseball America as a serious shortcoming in Loney's case, so much so that they are prompted to deem Loney a fairly middling prospect and question whether he can be a regular first baseman in the majors, Jackson is ADORED by both John and Baseball America, notwithstanding that Jackson has the exact same Achilles' Heel as Loney (power), and Loney's defense at first base stirs mention of Gold Gloves, while Jackson's defense is indisputably inferior to Loney's.

How can this be?  Why is Loney's hitting only 11 HR's in a very pitcher-friendly Double A league, playing half his games in the league's most pitcher-friendly park (Jacksonville), at age 21, such a black mark against Loney, but nobody seems to have a problem with Jackson, at age 23, hitting a mere 8 HR's in one of the most hitter-friendly leagues in baseball, playing his home games in one of the most extreme hitter's parks in that league (Tucson)?  In fairness, let me point out that Jackson missed some time, playing only 93 games in Triple A, or 45 games fewer than Loney played in the minors in 2005.  Fine, Jackson played only about two-thirds of Loney's season, so lets adjust for the disparity and increase Jackson's home run totals by a half, raising Jackson from 8 to a full 12 HR's.  There.  The 23-year-old first base prospect who doesn't play his position well hit the equivalent of 12 home runs in a season playing in launching pad parks.  In 2007, when Loney turns 23 on May 7, 2007, if he were the first baseman in Tuscon (for the sake of argument let's just assume a trade to the Diamondbacks), does anybody think Loney would hit a mere 12 HR's over the season, given that two years earlier, as a less-developed player, both physically and skills-wise, he had hit 11 HR's playing in a league and home park that for pitcher-friendliness compares to the Pacific Coast League and Tucson like Shea Stadium compares to Coors Field?  If you say yes, I have a bridge I would like to sell you.

A couple of days ago, John justified his giving Loney a "C+" by saying that Loney has not lived up to expectations.  I do agree that Loney has not lived up to expectations.  He was expected to have developed more power than he has by now.  After Loney torched the Pioneer League and played in the Florida State league as an 18-year-old, Loney was talked about as a future star.  If Loney had lived up to expectations, he would no doubt either be in the majors already, or he would at least rate an "A" grade as a prospect right now.  Clearly Loney is not an "A" prospect, or an "A-" prospect.  Loney right now projects to be a great defensive first base man in the majors who hits for a high average (.285 to .300), draws enough walks to have a .350 to .365 OBA, and hits between 18 to 20 HR's.  As long as he is not too expensive, and as long as more HR power is coming from other positions on a team, THAT kind of first baseman is a good, valuable player.  Not a "star" by any means, but a good player.  A first baseman with 20-homers-a-year-power is just not going to be considered a star.  Two things to note now:  a prospect who projects to be the above-outlined player deserves better than a "C+" grade.  Not an "A-", but a "B" certainly.  Second, Conor Jackson projects to be pretty much the same player I outlined above.  18 to 20 HR's a year to go along with a high batting average.  Maybe add some more walks, and take away the great defense at first base.  The extra walks and inferior defense cancel each other out in my mind, so what we are left with, in my view, is Conor Jackson meriting a grade of "B" as a prospect, the same grade I think Loney deserves.  Loney and Jackson, cosmically related.  Given their respective skin pigmentations, I'm tempted to start humming "Ebony and Ivory"...

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 3:34 PM EST   0 recs

Response
I actually am a Loney fan, but there's no disputing Jackson's offensive potential. His strike zone judgment is exceptional and should rate among the very best in the game very early in his major league career. Like you I haven't been too thrilled about his lack of home runs given league/park context, but his IsoP looks respectable nonetheless.

Loney might be valuable to a team, but he can't hit for more than a .420 slugging percentage against minor league competition, park factors or not, I'm not sure that anybody will give him a chance. Loney might be the type who hits .280 with 15-18 HRs a year at 1B, but Jackson will likely be a legit perennial .300+ hitter with the ability to challenge for batting crowns, to go with a huge OBP. No matter how good Loney's defense is, it won't overcome Jackson's overall production (and it probably won't come close, for that matter). Mind you, this is assuming that something doesn't change for Loney in the next few years - but so far, he hasn't exactly given anybody much of a reason to believe otherwise.

by mrkupe on Feb 20, 2006 4:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Jackson/Loney
Dude I don't know where you're coming from.  While I haven't given up on Loney developing and still think he could be a useful player or less likely a star in the majors, Conor Jackson is as close to a sure thing as there is.  The guy has unworldy bb/k ratio to go with a great batting average.  He may not hit a pile of homers, but he'll hit tons of doubles to keep his slugging percentage plenty high.  Also many prospects turn those doubles into homers as they get into the big leagues and mature as a hitter.  Jackson will be an above average hitter in the bigs at worst.  If he hits 20 to 30 homers he's a superstar.  At this point in their careers Loney and Jackson are not really comparable at all.

by eastin on Feb 20, 2006 4:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

geez
not everything is about james loney. give it a rest. you always make the same points, and even though they have merit, you always neglect to mention some very important things.

conor jackson has unbelievable plate discipline. not good, not even merely great, but absolutely killer. in AAA he had a 69/32 K/BB ratio; in 2004 it was 69/72 across two levels. jackson hits for an extremely high batting average--.354 last year, well over .300 at every stop of the minors. in hitter's parks, certainly, but you can't explain away 100 points of batting average using park effects. how can you look at him and james loney and say "these are both 1B who hit for below-average power"? please. that is their only similarity. if james loney ever puts up a 350/450/550 line in las vegas, then we can compare them. but it's not going to happen. he's nowhere near the hitter than jackson is, so why should we care that he might play good defense? these guys are 1Bs, for crying out loud.

by jpahk on Feb 20, 2006 4:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Canuck
At some point, you have to factor in performance.  Loney has lots of projectability for sure, but he just has not put up the numbers.

Jackson is an atypical first baseman, but his lower level ceiling is still former D-Backs prospect Lyle Overbay -- a good average, great OBP doubles machine.  His career is a reasonable bet to wind up in the Olerud/Will Clark mold.  If he develops power, he's a top 5 player.  If Loney develops power, he's still only going to have a middling average and OK OBP.  At 1B, that's, if anything, slightly above average.

It's a reasonable beef to claim that John underrates Loney.  But Jackson is not a good comp for you.  Come back when Loney puts up an IsoD of .102 while hitting .350 and slugging .530.

And if you do, please check the underhanded racist and Holocaust-denier references at the door.

by limozeen on Feb 20, 2006 5:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

That's right
We all hate James Loney because he's black. That's it!

by PooNani on Feb 20, 2006 6:03 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

what a bitter dodgers fan
CanuckDodger,

Can't you just be happy that John (and people on this site) rated the Dodgers as having the top farm in baseball? What is this desire to come up with some random reasons to belittle a player in another system, especially by offering such rather ridiculous arguments and comparisons?

The reality is, Jackson has lived up to the expectations that come with being a first round pick, has raked everywhere he's played in the minors, and deservedly is penciled in as the starting 1bman in AZ this year. Scouts and statheads agree that there is a lot to like about him, and I think he can be an all-star quality player for many years.

Loney, despite the hype, has never lived up to the expectations people had of him. You can make all the projections you want, and hypothesize about his future all day long, but until Loney delivers at the plate, and starts fulfilling his promise, he will always be penalized in these rankings. As it should be.

by levski on Feb 20, 2006 4:27 PM EST   0 recs

Levski
Sure, my arguments are SO ridiculous that you can't even address them.  "Bitter?"  "Why can't I be happy..."  This isn't about emotions.  It is about reason.  I have offered sound, reasonable analysis based on the stats and the influence of age, league, and park factors that are KNOWN to affect stats in baseball.  Want to argue my points?  Please do so if you can.  Making ad hominem attacks against me or questioning my motives doesn't refute me.  I am reminded of making the mistake of actually bothering to get into an argument with a guy who believed that the Holocaust didn't happen.  I wasted ten minutes of words pointing to facts and evidence and all he could say at the end of my little speech was "You must be a Jew."  Shame on me, I suppose, for hoping that reason can triumph over non-rational assumptions and prejudices, whether one is discussing history OR baseball.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 4:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

ad hominem attacks?
Dude, I don't even know you. I've only read a few of your posts, and you seem to have a) irrational love for Loney and b) irrational hatred for the rest of the NL west's prospects.

Your "sound, reasonable analysis" is just a bunch of handwaving and "what if" suggestions. Anyone can come up with just a "sound, reasonable analysis" for why Jackson is by far a better prospect than Loney. In fact, it appears that John Sickels, the guys on Baseball America, and a quite a few other respectable sourses (not to mention several posters in this thread alone) have offered very "sound, reasonable analysis" in support of Jackson.

I agree this is not about emotions, but reason. I just don't find your arguments reasonable, and I think they're more based on emotion than actually a lot of common sense. Thus my comment. The last thing I want is to make ad hominem attacks; I can't be bothered to attack a random guy on an internet board, and I certainly wouldn't do that on John's site.

Finally, where do you come up with the Holocaust crap? Has anyone mentioned anything about the Holocaust here? How is that related to anything talked about in this thread? Why don't you list a whole bunch of other, totally unrelated experiences and conversations that you may have had in the past, and use those to tell everyone why Loney is a better prospect than Jackson?

In the end, Loney may flame out just as easily as the great trio of Edwin Jackson, Joel Hanrahan and Greg Miller, who a while back were the best 1-2-3 combo in the minors (according to guys who believe in the Holocaust, mind you) and are now not even on LA's top 20 list. When Loney puts up a couple of seasons that allow statheads and scouts to predict with decent degree of certainty that he will a) make the majors; and b) become a good or even great player, then you can come back and write "I told you so".

Until then, I have nothing more to say to you.

by levski on Feb 20, 2006 5:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Holocaust Argument Reference
Again, I have to wonder about your reading comprehension, levski.  Not an insult, just a legitimate observation based on what you infer from the written word.  I did not write, or imply, that believing Jackson is a better prospect than Loney is tantamount to thinking the Holocaust did not happen (God, I can't believe I am even having to explain this).  I was drawing an analogy between the RESPONSE my argument about the Holocaust having taken place received (my argument was ignored entirely, and the guy I was arguing with just dismissed everything I actually said by bringing my perceived identity -- Jew -- into it), and your responding to my argument about Jackson and Loney not by addressing what I actually said about stats, league, park, and age factors, but instead resorting to impugning my perceived identity -- "bitter Dodger fan," in your words.  The analogy is apt because in both cases the substance of the argument is not just ignored, but made irrelevet by the person making the argument being dismissed as biased ("Of course a Jew wants to think the Holocaust happened" is what that neo-Nazi was essentially saying to me, to dismiss everything I said showing the Holocaust did happen, and your response was to say "Of course a bitter Dodger fan wants to believe that Jackson is not a better prospect than Loney, so there is no point in me taking anything you say to prove it seriously").  And in both cases the accusations about my identity were, in fact, wrong.  I am not Jewish.  And I am not a "bitter" Dodger fan, although I am a Dodger fan.  Why would I be bitter?  The Dodgers' farm is in great shape, and both BA and John call it the best in baseball.  About Loney and Jackson being (in my view) incorrectly rated as prospects by both John and BA, I am not "bitter" about it.  No emotion is involved.  I have an intellectual disagreement with them, and that is all.  I have made my argument.  They can disagree with me, other people can disagree with me.  People can say I am mistaken, they can argue against my points, but I will not just stand idly by and be dismissed by being called "bitter" when I am not bitter.  That is all.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 6:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

As a Jew
I can't say I have a problem with your reference to an argument with a neo-nazi about the Holocaust, although Holocaust references should be made sparingly in sports etc...

As far as the players, I agree that Loney is an underrated prospect, to the point of a B grade, but I don't think Jackson is necessarily overrated, because anyone who can double his walks to strikeouts should be considered phenomenal. Also, given the lack of other incredible 1b prospects (did someone whisper Barton?) I think it's fair to give Jackson a pretty high grade, because part of grading is what position the player plays, and if you have a Chase Utley who would be considered a great-but-not-phenomenal 1b playing 2b, suddenly he's the best or second best 2b in the majors, and has an A grade (for that position)

by mroak89 on Feb 21, 2006 12:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

"ridiculous arguments"
By the way, I want to point out that, by "ridiculous arguments", I meant canuck's suggestion that Jackson is ranked higher than Loney because of the color of their skin. Such a blatant accusation of racism is just ridiculous.

And I'll second another poster in this thread who suggested that Canuck leaves out racism insinuations or Hollocaust references out of this board. The last thing anyone here needs is a flaming war on race, politics, history.

by levski on Feb 20, 2006 5:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Oh, brother...
One, I thought you had "nothing more to say to me"?  Two, I didn't say or imply that Jackson is more highly rated than Loney because Jackson is white.  Either you are being sarcastic (tough to guage on the internet without emoticons), or you are -- mind you this is not an ACCUSATION -- simple-minded.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 5:40 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

LOL
And here I thought I was spitting venom...

Reread your "ebony and ivory" comments. I couldn't help but feel that there were some racial implications in that post. And I wasn't the only one who felt that way on this thread, it appears.

Anyhow, I am simple-minded enough to have learned my lesson to not engage in "intellectual discussions" with you ever again. You have yourself a great day. And keep that James Loney card safe and sound.

by levski on Feb 20, 2006 5:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

a question about Matt Elliot
John,

You didn't mention him here, even though he had a ridiculously good season in South Bend. What is it that you don't like (or maybe like?) about him? And where is the love for Jason Neighborgall and his electric fastball? :)

Also, a minor point, but I'd have thought that Nippert would rank just a notch higher, maybe as a B+. Finally, nice to see Chico on the list. He will be better this time around in AA. I am glad no one took him in the rule 5.

Btw, I finally registered to post here, despite being a long time lurker. You've got a great site, John. Keep up the excellent work.

by levski on Feb 20, 2006 4:32 PM EST   0 recs

levski...
I've seen Neighborgall pitch A TON but there is no way he deserves to be in the top 20.  He does have as much stuff as any pitcher in baseball but he is an absolute mess.  It isnt just that he has some generic problem like bad control but he often cannot throw the ball to the catcher.  He has Blass disease most of the time and just normal style atrocious control the rest of the time.

Its a shame, because hes smart and hardworking, but its going to take a full overhaul of everything (especially mentally) to get anything out of him.

by nms on Feb 20, 2006 8:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Career Comparisons
Jackson has been two years older than Loney and playing in FAR, FAR more hitter friendly leagues and parks than Loney every step of the way, skewing both Loney's and Jackson's stats relative to each other's.  Adjusting for leagues, home parks, and age (and injury history in Loney's case), Loney projects to hit much BETTER in the majors than he has in the minors.  Adjusting for leagues, home parks, and age, Jackson projects to hit WORSE in the majors than he has in the minors.  The result?  Loney and Jackson, in the future, will meet somewhere in the middle statistically.  It's funny how so many people think they can just take minor league stats at face value and pencil them for a player's future major league years, adjusting for NOTHING at all. It shows a complete and total misunderstanding of baseball statistics.  And by the way, I should add here that in my post above I forgot to mention that the future major league projections for Loney and Jackson that I gave were for the theoretical "neutral park."  In real life, Loney's stats, if he is a Dodger, will be hampered somewhat by Dodger Stadium.  Jackson will have a more favorable home park in Phoenix, which will help his stats, but playing a lot of games in pitcher-friendly parks in L.A., San Diego, and San Francisco will make Jackson yearn for the days when the hitter-spectacular Southwest divison of the PCL was his home.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 4:41 PM EST   0 recs

loney's projection
"Adjusting for leagues, home parks, and age (and injury history in Loney's case), Loney projects to hit much BETTER in the majors than he has in the minors."

That projection, along with $1.26, can get you a cup of coffee at any Dunkin Donuts location, and a donut for another 79 cents.

Which should at least keep you warm and fed just in case Loney never actually makes the majors. It'll be an astrological crime, such a projection, unrealized.

by levski on Feb 20, 2006 4:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Jackson & Loney
The only thing I can think of is that Jackson is more likely to realize his potential.  I say that because 1) Jackson's plate discipline is better and 2) I believe his overall upside is less than Loney's.

I don't think Loney was necessarily given a bad grade, but I agree that Jackson is too high.  His best season for power was in 2004: 17 HRs shared between the Cal and Texas leagues.  He has been hitting doubles, but I am starting to doubt that the power will show.  I think he is a solid B or weak B+, but not an A or A-.  If the ball was not flying over the wall in the PCL, how can we just assume it will in Arizona?  That's why he is more likely a B for me.

by count sutton on Feb 20, 2006 5:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Again, Levski...
Once more with the insults in place of actual intellectual engagement.  Accusing me of being "bitter" is ironic on so many levels given the venom you feel compelled to spit.

But I will say that there IS a point in there worth addressing.  Since I have CONCEDED, in my first post, that Jackson is PERCEIVED as a much better prospect than Loney (wrongly, I have argued), it does stand to reason that Jackson will get a lot more benefits of the doubt if he should struggle at all in the majors than Loney would.  I'll go on the record right now and say that I believe many prospects "fail" simply because they are not given the chances they deserve, while other prospects "succeed" because they are handed opportunity after opportunity.  A few years ago, Eric Gagne's struggles in the majors as a starter put his MLB career on thin ice.  If the Dodgers hadn't lacked a closer at just the right time, who knows what could have happened to Gagne?  He wasn't "meeting expectations," but the need for a hard-thrower in the back of the Dodgers' bullpen opened up a window of opportunity for Gagne.  Right now, in the majors, a one-time first base prospect arguably more highly regarded in his time than Jackson is currently, Hee-Seop Choi, is regarded as a huge failure by everybody IN baseball, and his MLB future is in serious doubt, even if Baseball Prospectus and statheads still love him.  Choi has not "met expectations" as far as the Dodgers are concerned, and he will be relegated to the bench this year (behind Garciaparra) or demoted to Triple A.  The Cubs and Marlins jettisoned him as well for being a perceived disappointment.  Will Loney not get a chance in the majors?  It is "possible," I suppose.  But I think he will, because the Dodgers right now, even without Loney ever playing a single game in Triple A, regard Loney as a better first baseman, and hitter, than Choi, and it is what the Dodgers think that will determine how much of an MLB chance he ultimately gets.  I do think Choi is being undervalued, however.  Unfortunately that happens in baseball, even to guys who at one point, when they were prospects, looked like future stars.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 5:30 PM EST   0 recs

Here's what I don't understand
Jackson has tremendous contact, great doubles power, and tremendous plate discipline already.  He could still develop home run power, but I'll agree that he's got less of a power ceiling than Loney.

Loney has OK contact, OK doubles power, and OK plate discipline.  He's got a higher power ceiling, but he's still got a much longer way to go.

Jacksons's skills have him as at least an above-average, if atypical, MLB first baseman.  If he develops one skill -- power -- he's a superstar.

Loney's skills have him as a below-average MLB first baseman right now.  If he develops one skill -- power (which he might have a better chance of developing than Jackson, I will grant) -- he becomes...an average MLB first baseman.  Jackson will still be worth more, even if he doesn't develop power, because his other skills are tremendous.

As I said, it could be debated that Loney is rated too low.  I really don't think Jackson is a good example of a player ranked too high, though, nor do I think it's at all hard to confuse who the better prospect is between Jackson and Loney.  As the skills indicate, it's really not close.

by limozeen on Feb 20, 2006 9:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Limozeen...
Given that Loney (a HS draftee) in 2005 was the same age that Jackson (a college draftee) was when Jackson was drafted in 2003, do you believe that in 2003 Jackson could have signed with the Diamondbacks and gone straight to Double A?  What if the Diamondbacks had sent him to Double A right after the draft?  What do you suppose would have been Jackson's stat line?  Do you honestly think it would have been as good as Loney's .284/.357/.419 in Double A at age 21?  I honestly don't.  And of course there is a huge difference between playing Double A in Jacksonville of the Southern League and El Paso of the Texas League.  The Southern League is far more difficult for hitters.  The Diamondbacks switched their Double A afilliate to the Southern League for 2005.  Care to take a guess at how well uber-prospect Stephen Drew did in the same league as James Loney while being 14 months older than Loney?  Drew hit .218/.301/.386.  Not that great, huh?  So how well would Conor Jackson have done in the Southern League if he had had to play there right after being drafted?

You talk about Jackson's contact skills, doubles power, and plate discipline versus Loney's skills in those areas.  Two things to say about that.  First, differences in batting average and doubles can be wholly accounted for by the age, league, and home park differences.  Second, league and park factors are not issues where plate discipline is concerned, but age relative to quality of competition can play a big role in determining mumber of walks and strikeouts.  When Loney is two year's older than he is now, will his skills not have improved over what they were when he was 21?  If you say no, you are assuming something that does not seem very likely.  Loney's walks could easily have been near or at Jackson's level if he had been two years older than he actually was in 2005 and was playing only one level higher than he actually played in 2005.  As it is, by the time Loney is the age Jackson was in 2005, Loney won't likely be in Triple A  at all (like Jackson was at age 23), he will instead be the Dodgers' starting first baseman, in 2007.  

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 10:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

A few things
I'm not going to rebut everything you said, because a lot of it is semi-valid.  I do think you're arguing to the extreme though, and not putting enough emphasis on performance.

First, there's no need to bring in the straw man of Stephen Drew.

Second, Jackson has done all that you can ask of a college hitter.  He's dominated every level and advanced a level every year.  He made a flawless AA transition and crushed AAA.  You cannot punish Jackson for being too old because he's dominated every level and advanced exactly as you'd hope a college player would.  Unless you're saying that all college players are inferior to high school prospects who haven't realized their potential.  Another thing: Jackson's 23!  He's not old!  He's only a half-year behind Loney's path so far, but he's realized much of his potential.  Loney is still an unknown quantity.  I'm not saying that Loney can't be a good player.  He's just not as good of a prospect as Jackson.

Finally, I'd challenge you to back up the statement that walks are a product of age relative to league.  This is simply not true.  For most players, they either have the ability to walk or don't.  Loney has a nice walk rate, but Jackson's is otherworldy.  Loney strikes out a lot more than Jackson, and that's not just because he's 21 years old instead of 23.

by limozeen on Feb 20, 2006 10:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Should read:
"For most young players, they either have the ability to walk or they don't."

by limozeen on Feb 20, 2006 10:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Nature Vs. Nurture
Why is Drew not relevent to this discussion?  He struggled mightily in Loney's Double A league.  Unlike Jackson, Drew has actually played in a pitcher's league.  Mentioning Drew's performance in the Southern League was meant to convey just how tough it is for a hitter who has padded his stats in a hitter's league (Drew was unstoppable in the California League) to duplicate his performance in a pitcher's league.  That is a point that I don't believe you understand, or don't want to concede.  

You are probably aware that the subject of whether plate discipline is "learned" or someone has to be "born with it" is a HUGE controversy among people in baseball or who write about baseball. I come down on the side of the "learned behavior" school of thought.  We're not going to settle the debate to each other's satisfaction, I am sure, but do you honestly believed that if Loney played in Double A in 2006 again he would walk just as much as he walked in 2005, and strike out as much as he struck out in 2005?  Highly improbable, unless Loney's development completely stagnated between his age 21 and age 22 seasons.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 20, 2006 11:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

okay
now that the discussion is back to being about baseball players, i'll jump back in.

stephen drew's 100 ABs in double A are not as meaningful as literally thousands upon thousands of ABs by other players which tell us what the differences are in the minors between levels and parks. drew really is irrelevant to this discussion--what you want to be saying is that the southern league is a tougher place to hit than the environments that jackson has hit in. fine.

but let's not overstate these differences. just because loney is two years younger than jackson doesn't mean (or even come close to meaning) that he'll be as good as jackson in two years. dominating a level is dominating a level, and that's exactly what jackson has always done despite never being old for the level. now, there's a lot to be said for holding your own in an advanced league at a young age, but even if you want to compare loney's 2005 (284/357/419 in jax) to jackson's 2003 (319/410/533 in yakima) at the same age, jackson has the better translated stats.

even if they were equal, though, or even if loney has the edge, you simply cannot ignore the fact that in the two years since, jackson has progressed several levels and dominated at every stop of the minors. there is absolutely no indication that loney will be able to match that, so he's nowhere near as good a prospect.

by jpahk on Feb 20, 2006 11:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Incorrect, Jpahk
Loney's .284/.357/.419 in a Double A pitcher's league is far, far superior performance to Jackson's .319/.410/.533 in a short-season  single A league at the exact same age.  Jackson was playing a full THREE LEVELS below Loney.  This Baseball Prospectus nonsense about "translating" these stats is a joke, because they always -- I mean ALWAYS -- underestimate the difference in degrees of difficulty between levels.  That is PRECISELY why it is useful to point out how a Stephen Drew can slaughter the California League and turn around and find himself overmatched in the Southern League.  (Drew was not unusual in that.  I see this happen all the time in my observation of minor league players.)  Imagine that Drew had not played in the Southern League, but stayed in high A.  If Nate Silver at BP had taken Drew's line from the California League and "translated" it to determine what those numbers would be in the Southern League, I am sure he would have come up with much better numbers than Drew AS A MATTER OF FACT put up in the Southern League after his promotion.  BP's nifty little translation formulas are just not in sync with the real world of minor league baseball as I see it unfold EVERY season, and theoretical constructs that don't pass empirical testing have to be jettisoned.

In summation, the 21-year-old Loney thoroughly out-performed the 21-year-old Jackson, so there is no reason at all to think that the 23-year-old Loney, in 2007, will not at least be the equal of the 23-year-old Jackson.  But as I said above, we will never be able to test my hypothesis by comparing the 23-year-old Jackson's Triple A stats with a 23-year-old Loney's Triple A stats, because after spending 2006 in Triple A as a 22- year-old, Loney will be a major leaguer as a 23-year-old in 2007 -- having made the majors earlier age-wise than Jackson was able to.

by CanuckDodger on Feb 21, 2006 5:22 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

you cannot be convinced
it is amazing how you insist on looking at the tiny piece of the picture which supports your tightly-held belief. BP did not just make up these translations--they looked at every single player who has played at multiple different levels over the years and calculated what the difference in league difficulty was. can we all agree that this is a superior method to looking at a single outlying data point (drew) and concluding that AA is a zillion jillion times tougher than A? their "theoretical construct" not only passes the empirical tests--it's not a theoretical construct! it's an empirical one. their numbers are not a theory but a product of the data. unless there is a wild shift in the data, it will continue to pass all empirical tests.

outliers are outliers. could i not just as easily point to kevin melillo, who hit 286/399/457 in low A and then 282/347/519 in AA after being promoted and conclude that AA is actually an easier place to hit for power than low A? and yet, melillo had more AA at-bats than drew. isn't he therefore a more meaningful case?

also, there is still a world of difference between loney matching jackson's performance at 21 (let's assume he actually did, for the sake of argument) and loney ending up at the same place at age 23. jackson has had a fantastic last two years. pretty much any prospect would be thrilled to develop the way he has from age 21 to 23. so there is plenty of good reason to think that loney won't be able to. you can't just say that all prospects develop the same over those two years, so that at age 23 loney will be a stud.

finally--i'm not on board with the ad hominem attacks, but it seems to be shockingly arrogant behavior to repeatedly insist that yours is the only correct viewpoint and that everybody else is blind. you might want to tone down your posts, because it's hard to read them without coming to the conclusion that you're a jerk. and i'd really rather not come to that conclusion, because i don't actually know you at all.

by jpahk on Feb 21, 2006 2:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Loney vs. Jackson
I had written Loney off as a bust to tell the truth-

But I forgot about his age-
Loney at 21 hit .284/.359/.419

but in a league (AA) that averaged .266/.335/.394

BUT in a pitchers park in that league (Park factor of 91 per BBPrimer)

That gives him an OPS+ north of 120

Jackson at 21 hit .319/.410/.533
in the North West League (rookie ball)
Yakima    - Neutral Park- I don't know what the league is like.

then at 22 he hit .345/.438/.562 in Lancaster (Hi A)- Lancaster is an extreme run enviroment California League is the most hitter friendly full season league in baseball and Lancaster's Park factor is 119.   

then at 22 (still- same year) he hit .301/.367/.456    in El Paso- the most hitter friendly AA park (shame it no longer has a AA team)

.284/.359/.419 in Jacksonville, Southern League
at 21 is a bit more impressive than 367/456 in El Paso at age 22.

But Jackson has a better contact rate, and Loney's 2005 was his second go at AA...

The minor league parks that Jackson has played in are just nuts- they make his performance look better than they really are- but every level he's played in that league's equivalent of Coors.  His plate discipline is excellent, but his power is actually quite poor considering his park and league environments (not average- actually poor)

I think Overbay is a decent comp for Jackson, I also think Dave Magadan is also.  

by Johnny Ruin on Feb 21, 2006 5:13 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

jackson's comps
Fwiw, Jackson's PECOTA comp list includes David Ortiz and Gary Sheffield.

But I'm sure Jackson's Johnny Ruin comp list is much much better than PECOTA.

by levski on Feb 21, 2006 5:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Pecota comps
You forgot to mention that teh first two names on his comp list were Nate Espy and Paul McAnulty
(I think Espy got hurt and failed to recover and/or develop)

McAnulty was vaguely interesting for awhile...

Actually he's only a year older than Conor and considering the difference in parks was not that far off Jackson in 2005 (doesn't have Conor's contact/ plate discipline though)

Most of the Pecota comps had shown more power (relative to league/park) than Conor has so far- Conor has better contact skills though.

Actually, I do like my comps better- BPro claims they use an era,  park & League normalized DB- but a lot of their comps are even further off quality wise than BBRef's comps- which don't adjust for era or park.

I'd really like to see exactly how they generate their comps.

by Johnny Ruin on Feb 21, 2006 6:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

comps
Actually, I'd like to see how you generate your comps. I'm rather curious if there is a system to them or is it just a process of throwing a bunch of names against the wall and seeing which one sticks.

by levski on Feb 21, 2006 7:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

system
Ok you got me :-)
System, what system?

Seriously, I have several years worth of minor league data in excel along with league and park #s.

I don't know how Bpro generates their comp scores- but some just seem nuts (Check out Billy Butler's- 2 of his top comps are similar only that at age 19 they were similar in report height & weight and also played professional baseball).

I translate #s on my own using park and league factors- and the result is usually similar to Bpros- but this year especially what I came up with and what Bpro came up for on AZ guys (and a few other teams) just can't be reconciled.

Tucson has a park factor of 1.32 (per Primer)
I turn that into an adjustment factor of about 1.145-  my guess is that Bpro takes a home/road split to generate a park factor- turns it into an adjustment factor and THEN FURTHER REGRESSES IT TO THE MEAN- which would be ok if you had a park that seemed to jump all over the place from year to year, which many parks do- but the run environments in Az's parks have been pretty stable year to year- I see no reason to regress Tucson's weighted 3 year park factor's towards the mean.

The result (I believe) is that Bpro's translated EQAs for Ariz minor leaguers are uniformly too high (amd the translated ERAs for their pitchers are likewise too high- Webb SHOULD have been regarded as a stud pitching prospect by them- but wasn't)

by Johnny Ruin on Feb 22, 2006 10:51 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

AZ's farm
I don't really think that many people (BPro, zips, etc) know how to translate AZ's minor league stats to the majors. I do think that, in general, most of the hitters have been overrated and pitchers have been underrated.

Aside from Brad Penny, who was a very good pitcher very young, none of AZ's pitchers have ever ranked high on any prospect list. Guys like John Patterson or Chris Capuano or Brandon Webb were never thought of much. Ditto now for someone like Garrett Mock. I realize AZ never had great pitching prospects either, but there was a bias against AZ's pitchers.

OTOH, I admit that some hitting prospects received more hype than warranted because of Lancaster, El Paso and Tucson. But I do think that there is too much of a backlash against some of the genuinely good hitting prospects; too many pundits want to penalize them (and penalize them too much) because of their home parks. Guys like Durazo, Overbay and most recently Chad Tracy were almost always ranked lower than they should've been, imho, because of less than overwhelming stats in the minors.

In many ways, AZ's hitters suffer from the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" syndrome. If they hit really well in the minors, then well, they are supposed to because they hit in great parks. If they don't hit as well as they are supposed to, then they are not good enough. The knock on Chad Tracy, for example, was that he never hit for power, even though many scouts suggested that once he learned how to put just a bit more spin on the ball, many of his doubles would go for homers. I suppose now Chad Tracy is being discounted because there was nothing in his minor league record to suggest he'd hit 27 homers in a season.

Ditto for Jackson. People focus on the homers, and ignore the great plate discipline, the doubles, the contact rate, the force with which he hits the ball. If you have ever see him hit, you'd be amazed at how hard he his the ball. He sends screaming liners for doubles, not down the line squeezers. I also think that Conor was trying SO hard NOT to strike out last year that he kept some of his power out of his swing. I think he will adjust, and his K rate will increase some, but he will hit the ball with even more authority and power. And the BOB is great for line drive right handed hitters; Shea Hillenbrant looked like a slugger there. Jackson will be just fine.

Btw, Webb made the transition from double A El Paso to the majors. Yes, he should've been considered as a top prospect, but ultimately, I do not really care that much. In the end, I don't really care what people think about AZ's prospects; I care about how they do once they reach the majors. It seems EVERYONE on the internet is a top notch expert on prospects these days; I listen to what what John Sickels has to say, and the folks at BA have to say, and I put more weight on their opinions, but aside from that, in my book, everybody else is just wasting his time. So when a guy comes in and tells me that James Loney is a better prospect than Conor Jackson, my reaction is, "do you really think I give a rat's arse about your opinion?"