The Future of the NL Central
We turn our attention once again to a topic of considerable debate here in past weeks, the future of the NL Central.
Do the Cardinals take this division handily? How soon will age catch up with them? Their farm system is improving but is this happening fast enough? And does it matter? Who will challenge them? The Cubs. . .they look somewhat dysfunctional to me but can't be counted out. The Astros...will they win 75 or 95? The Pirates...how soon will they compete? The Reds, same question. The Brewers? It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Milwaukee make a huge push this year or in 2007.
What do you think of the farm systems, and what impact does the state of the farm have on the future of these particular teams?
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44 comments
Comments
Your Grandmother
Times like these show what families and friends are for. Be strong and, as I said, be sure to take care of yourself as well.
by luthanham on Jan 17, 2006 2:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Three levels of competition in the NL Central
1-2 Cards/Stros 90-100 wins
3-4 Brewers/Cubs 75-88 wins
5-6 Reds/Pirates 65-80 wins
Astros: I Have them in the playoffs again. I don't think losing Clemens hurt them since the Stros only won 13-15 of his starts last year. Can't replace him but 13-15 wins out of 33 starts is easy. The bulpen is the biggest strength and will be in the top three in baseball. The offense is decent and will be around 5-10 in the NL. The starting pitching rotation is in question, but there are enough pieces to put together a well above average rotion over a full season. This is a team that seems to manufacture a 10-15 win pitcher every year out of a #225 ranked prospect. They will have the worst producing catchers in the NL once again but the only way they don't see 90 wins is if Ensberg, Berkman, Ausmus, or Oswalt get injured for a long period.
Farm: They have Zero position players ready or great above A Besides Scott. One of three pitchers have a chance to make the team out of ST(Nieve, Hirsh,Buchholz). They have 5 pitchers that could see time in the bigs durring the year and another 5 that could in the next 2 years. Only a few are top notch(98% chance there is no RoyO). Five Position players are 2-2 1/2 years away but 2 or 3 will go by the wayside. The system is on the rise but the next year could raise them to the top third or stay settled in the lower middle third.
This is taking a long time and I will finish later.
Thank you
by Shamus on Jan 17, 2006 4:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nothing against the 'Stros
I don't mean to rain on your parade, as I think Nieve & Hirsh have a lot to offer in the Bigs, but here is where the luck turned the other way for this team:
Wandy Rodriguez actual win% was 0.526 (10-9), but he should have been much worse than that, at about 0.417 (or 6-9). Also, Backe's was 10-8, with a win% of .556, but should have been more in the order of 8-10, or 0.459.
That staff was amazing last year; but a couple things are bound to happen: (1) Clemens will get more wins if he pitches this well in 2006; (2) he won't pitch this well in 2006; & (3) when his luck turns good, others will turn the other way.
One other note: Dayn Perry had a nice piece in BP in November, arguing that Pettitte was the staff's best pitcher, not Clemens, and that Andy indeed deserved the NL Cy. It's an argument based on park factors: in sum, that it's much easier to toss as an RHP in Houston, than as a LHP. You may disagree (I did & do), but it's worth a look: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4606
by Azteca on Jan 17, 2006 9:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
I think the Brewers will be a better team than the Astroes next season. Plus, if Jeff Bagwell comes back, the Astros may very well be worse (nothing against Bagwell since I really like him as a player). I do not believe the pitching can compensate for the offense this season.
We know Berkman is great, but will Ensberg keep it up? Will Tavares and his unimpressive OBP still be adequate at leadoff? Will Preston Wilson be productive?
There are too many questions for the Astros to be considered a 90 win team IMO.
by count sutton on Jan 17, 2006 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Quick note
by sasquatch83 on Jan 17, 2006 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree...
by dvdmgsr on Jan 17, 2006 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The quick gate
by Shamus on Jan 17, 2006 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Relief
I had the Astros over 10 games better than the average for last year and I can't wait to see the final projections this year.
by Shamus on Jan 17, 2006 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the rest
Brewers: They don't have enough this year. This is my second favorite team in the division and they are not going to push this year. The pitching is not good enough. The team seems to sway with Genkins. If he has a good year they can break .500. The young guys will have a learning curve for the whole year and the pitching will not overachieve as much this year. The team has yet to find the edge for a wild card or division race.
Cubs: IMO the Cubs are a joke every year. I could never be a Cub fan for numerous reasons. They can go nowhere with Dusty "Wristbands at Elbows" Baker. I think this is the year he finally reaches his goal of putting three once #1 prospects on the DL together(Zambrano, Prior, Wood). The pitching is in question and is a liability. I read that Walker will not even start at 2nd(Dusty is stupid). They got rid of Burnitz for Jones at twice the money. I like Murton a lot (red hair great bat). It will be interesting to see how Dusty uses the rookies or 2nd year players, since he likes to play veterans ad nosium. The train wreck will be fun to watch again this year.
Reds: Another team I like. They have no pitching. It is such a shame to see all there bats lose 8-7 every night. They need to just be working 2 seam fastballs in ST. They have wasted stock in prospects over the last 3 years. They traded a fan favorite for nothing in the division, so the fans can still see him 9 times a year. They have refused to get out of one of the worst contracts ever several times when they could have. They are run horribley and is little hope the next couple years.
Pirates: They have some good left handed starters and a few good outfielders. They will struggle with pitching a little and don't have enough bats to compensate. If several of the young guys work out then they have a good future in store.
by Shamus on Jan 17, 2006 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cards outfeild
Edmonds is still one of the best outfeilders in the game if you count both offense and defense. Juan'cion is a half-step below average offensively and a plus on defense. And the Cardinals likely platoon in left figures to be average defensively & offensively. So I am quite unsure how you get a horrible outfeild.
by Zubin on Jan 17, 2006 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Best offenses, worst pitching
The bright spot was the maturation of Aaron Harang and Brandon Claussen who are now the #1/2 guys of this rotation. Unfortunately, the Reds front office again decided against going after that top-of-the-rotation starter in free agency. With nothing obviously close in the minors, it looks to be another long year from Reds fans. The could come close to a .500 season IF Eric Milton pitches closer to his career norm (instead of Jimmy Anderson's career average) and David Williams doesn't bust as big as everyone is predicting that he will.
by rojosoto on Jan 17, 2006 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Astros pitching
by rojosoto on Jan 17, 2006 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pirates Compete?
by count sutton on Jan 17, 2006 9:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tracy
As for the team itself, I don't see it competing until it's sold. The priority every year is to win 70-75 games, just enough to keep attendance from collapsing and to allow the owners to make a healthy profit with their bottom-rank payroll. Long-term success is not a consideration. The farm system is rapidly deteriorating. They're getting a boost right now from prospects who were in the system when Dave Littlefield took over, but he's done little to add to it. I expect within a couple years they'll be in the bottom five or so in talent.
by WTM on Jan 17, 2006 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Should have been . . .
by WTM on Jan 17, 2006 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The praise that Tracy is getting
by matty fred on Jan 17, 2006 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some LA Fans still like him
Tracy then proceeded to go the LA media and say that he wanted the previous year's team. What does that say to Lowe, Kent, Drew, Choi, and other additions? Tracy did not want them. Instead of Kent, he wanted Cora. Instead of Drew, he wanted Beltre. Instead of Lowe, he wanted Lima. Instead of Choi, he wanted Finely. And so on. If you ask me, those are the makings of a poor manager and a poor choice for Pittsburgh.
by count sutton on Jan 17, 2006 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
by Azteca on Jan 17, 2006 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brewers
OF: Nelson Cruz should get a shot soon, since Lee is in his contract year. Corey Hart will get a shot somewhere, and Brady Clark was a solid leadoff man (he is old though). Jenkins has a few more years (2 years and an option), but he's a very good lefty bat as well.
SP: Sheets is a number one and one of the best pitchers in the league. Doug Davis is a solid number 2. Dave Bush and Chris Capuano make out a solid 3/4 tandem. Helling fills out a solid rotation. In the future, Mark Rogers and Yovani Gallardo have very high ceilings, and Dana Eveland should take over that 5th spot next year. Makings of a great future rotation.
RP: Wise is a very good set up man. Kolb is back and possibly will revert back to his former success. Capellan has a dynamite arm, and is another set up choice. Turnbow was flat out fabulous and should continue to succeed (though i expect his ERA to go down about a point).
Lineup:
Brady Clark (CF)
Rickie Weeks (2B)
Geoff Jenkins (RF)
Carlos Lee (LF)
Corey Koskie (3B)
Prince Fielder (1B)
Damian Miller (C)
JJ Hardy (SS)
Bill Hall fits great as a super utility man.
The lineup is pretty righty heavy though. Top hitting prospects (Cruz, Hart and Braun) are all righty as well.
by ohad on Jan 17, 2006 10:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
huh?
Jenkins
Lee
Koskie
Weeks
Fielder
(FYI, Hardy will hit 2nd, Yost has been on record numerous times saying JJ is etched in the 2 slot this year)
by mjwelch11 on Jan 17, 2006 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
brain fart
Clark
Hardy
Jenkins
Lee
Koskie
Weeks
Fielder
Miller
Pitcher
That still has 6 righties and 3 lefties though.....
by ohad on Jan 17, 2006 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Geoff Jenkins
year......OPS......BABIP......BB/PA......K/PA
2005......888......35.2%........9.1%.....22.3%
2004......798......31.1%........6.8%.....22.3%
2003......913......34.2%.......10.5%.....21.7%
Some regression for 2006 is in order, but I didn't see those 2005 #s coming. The walk-rate & BABIP, in my mind, are what changed.
by Azteca on Jan 17, 2006 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Injury history
2004-2005 = 305 games played
2001-2003 = 296 games played
by rojosoto on Jan 17, 2006 3:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brewers comments
MIDDLE RELIEF: I'm optimistic about the relief prospects of some of the arms too, but aside from Turnbow, the pen was our weak link in 2005.
HART: Late last year, I read that Hart was going to be turned into a super-utility-guy in 2006, getting lots of PT ala Rob Mackowiak (1b,3b,all three OF). If he can handle this without disrupting his development, that sounds very useful.
TIMEFRAME: I think Milwaukee needs a year to consolidate the gains, should compete in 2007, and be the class of the division in 2008 (when Fielder, Weeks, Hardy will be 24-25 years old). I think the next two years will measure the desire and competence of the front office. The past few years fill me with optimism though.
MORE HOLES: I actually think C-Lee, Clark, Jenkins will be fairly productive through 2008, but would like to see the team add another OF bat (or have Hart develop... although a lefty bat would work better). They will need an MLB-level catcher, unless they want to carry Miller's bat as it declines with age, ala Ausmus.
by BobbyMac on Jan 17, 2006 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NL Central Race
My beloved Reds will be in the basement due to the absolute incompetence of Dan O'Brien (who I pray will be fired as soon as the new ownership takes over), although there might be hope for the future with Encarnacion/Lopez this year and Bailey in the future...
In the next few years I see it being the Cardinals (with the major league lineup and large payroll) and the Brewers (with their good young talent) fighting it out with the Cubs/Astros (depending on free agency and the health of the Cubs pitchers) close behind and the Pirates/Reds bringing up the rear...
by BigRedMachine on Jan 17, 2006 11:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the compliment!
Somewhat is a little too nice.
The Cubs and Astros should win 80-85 games, at best. The Cardinals should win around 90. The Brewers should win around 83-86. The Pirates and Reds have no chance and should win around 70, 75 a piece. None of the teams in the division have an impressive system. I would like to say the Cubs have a decent future due to their pitching in the minors and ability to consistently add to the payroll, but that is all negated by Jim Hendry's reluctance to part with his prospects since the Willis deal.
by Ienpw on Jan 17, 2006 11:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hard to disagree with this assessment
by MikeE on Jan 19, 2006 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Reds
by Jgaztambide on Jan 17, 2006 11:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well
by goalieguy on Jan 17, 2006 5:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Offense is top in the league
c-LaRue
1b-Dunn
ss-Lopez
3b-Encarnacion
lf-Pena
cf-Griffey
rf-Kearns
Unfortunately, the organization has not had any visible plan for developing pitching. Bowden's complaint was that the owner's did not give him the money promised when the new stadium opened. So, they have all this offense and no pitching prospects or money allocated to spend on pitching.
I'm not sure they realize how good their hitting is or how small of a window they have to remain that good offensively because they should be buying good pitchers to catapult themselves into the playoffs. They just may be too cheap.
by rojosoto on Jan 17, 2006 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Have to disagree... COMPLETELY
Hendry has traded tons of prospects, just because they haven't been Pie/Guzman/Hill, etc. doesn't mean he is gun-shy as you seem to be implying. Choi was a top prospect, he got traded for D. Lee, well after Willis was grabbing headlines. He has been able to bring in some very good talent w/o giving up some of the other big names, which is very commendable. When you can get ARam/Lofton for Jose Hernandez/Bobby Hill/Matt Bruback, why the hell would give up a Guzman/Pie? Prior was also on the block. He's just 25 and there is a significant possibility he could have gone somewhere and had a HOF career. That is a more likely scenario than trading away Guzman and having him become the next Willis, yet Hendry stuck was willing to stick him out there. Hendry is not scared to trade anyone since Willis. Even if he knew Willis would turn out to be good, he would still have had to make that deal at the time, they got Clement and Alfonseca, which they definately needed to put their team in a position to go to the playoffs and they did that year.
by slurve on Jan 17, 2006 2:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Cubs apologist...
The Cubs in 2005 won 79 games. But if you look at BP, their W3-L3 was 85.6-76.4. Perhaps some of this shortcoming is Dusty, but I think it's fair to say that the 2005 Cubs were already in the 80-85 (maximum) range you cite, in terms of on-field performance.
Now, let's consider the 2005 season for the Cubs, and what can be expected in 2006:
SP: Going in, Prior, Wood, Zambrano were arguably their three best players (with Rami being close). Zambrano dropped in value from 2004, although exceeding his (BP again) projection. Wood was almost a liability, and Prior racked up 30 VORP in 27 starts. Given Dusty's influence, I think this is about as good as expected. Is it reasonable to assume worse results in 2006?
INF(+C): The big$ FA signing of Nomar netted the Cubs almost nothing. And Ramirez missed the end of the season (when the Cubs actually had a shot at the WC). Still, with Lee's eruption, the IF was only slightly worse than expected. Now Nomar's gone, and Lee will drop a bit. I expect the IF to be slightly down from 05.
OF: The 2005 Cubs OF was TERRIBLE. (LF: .265/.319/.418, CF: .234/.281/.362, RF: .257/.320/.425...average OPS of 708). The average Zips projection for the Cubs 3 OF now is .774. Admittedly, this will be lowered by bench players playing some, but should still be a huge step up, especially in OBA. Defense doesn't seem to have changed much, although if Pierre is as bad as the stats claim, that may really hurt the Cubs.
RP: Despite the "big money" signings of Howry and Eyre, this doesn't look to be vastly improved in 2006. Slight upgrade, perhaps.
So, just looking at "deltas", it seems to me that the Cubs are somewhat likely to improve on last year, when they had expected wins of over 85. Putting their "maximum" at 85 seems difficult to defend, since - however unlikely - it has to be considered that there's a chance for the starting pitching to remain healthy.
by BobbyMac on Jan 17, 2006 3:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Cubs
Offensively, you have addition by subtraction (Patterson.) Pierre gives you speed at the top of the lineup without much else. Anything else gained offensively, is counterbalanced by the expectation of D.Lee returning to reality.
They were 20th in scoring runs in MLB, while ranked 8th in OPS...I would expect the 2006 team to rank 14-17 in runs scored. That would put them on par for 80-85 wins.
by rojosoto on Jan 17, 2006 4:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Last few chances for St. Louis
by blinkshot on Jan 18, 2006 1:38 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
St Louis gtting older?
In the infeild the birds replaced Grudz (36yo) with Spivey(31yo).
I don't see older.
by Zubin on Jan 18, 2006 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Cards may be getting younger, but...
by MikeE on Jan 19, 2006 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Reds
- The offense, actually, should be better. Replacing Casey with Kearns should add runs; Encarnacion and Lopez should continue to improve. The key, as always, is Jr.'s health.
- The pitching can't be any worse. Milton, while not a #1, isn't nearly as bad as he was last year. Not having Ortiz around should be a considerable upgrade.
- The defense is still ugly, but getting Dunn out of the outfield, and Kearns in it every day, will help. Also, Encarnacion made great strides as the year progressed. That up the middle defense? Oof. At least Freel looks like he's playing hard (when he's sober).
by sidnancy on Jan 18, 2006 3:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
NL Central
by Shamus on Jan 19, 2006 12:57 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dusty Baker
by Shamus on Jan 19, 2006 12:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A pretty amazing stat over at Baseball Prospectus
Team VORP
Cincinnati Reds -2.0
Colorado Rockies 56.1
Arizona Diamondbacks 58.9
Los Angeles Dodgers 113.6
Pittsburgh Pirates 116.6
Wow.
by limozeen on Jan 19, 2006 1:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
The value of a win
by rojosoto on Jan 19, 2006 9:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
brew crew
by znyfan on Jan 19, 2006 7:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
replying to your previous comment
by Isisaston on Dec 17, 2006 7:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs









