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Crystal Ball: Matt Cain


As with Milledge, try to pick out transactions, trades, injuries, and All-Star seasons based solely on the statline above.

THIS IS NOT A PREDICTION. This is a possible future, nothing more.

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No All-Star Seasons
I can't find a single all-star year in that entire projection, looks like John doesn't have much faith in Matt Cain from his career numbers.  Looks like Suppan type career to me, sometimes solid, sometimes not, 4 or 5 starter.
Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.

by KaoticKlown on Sep 8, 2005 5:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

cain
I actually like Cain a lot. This is ONE possible future.

by John Sickels on Sep 8, 2005 5:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ouch
as a Giants fan, this was a rather bleak one. by the way, I hate "Gas Can" Benitez right now

by jrose643 on Sep 8, 2005 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not really his fault
As Kruk said on last night's broadcast, he's pitching with more guts than stuff. He's throwing 92, and he clearly can't finish hitters.

Now if you want to hate him for coming in to camp out of shape and ripping his hamstring, be my guest.

by 3Com Park on Sep 8, 2005 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2016 for the M's!
looks like a possible All star year depending on if he got the bulk of his wins in the first half or the second.
Go M's!

by OBF on Sep 8, 2005 5:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Let's see
Struggled with the Giants through 2012, when he was traded to the Phillies for another failed prospect, Gavin Floyd.  2013 begins Cain's maddening run of great first halves followed by a severe dropoff after the All-Star break.

Matt makes the AS team in 2013, based on his 10-3 record, 2.99 ERA, and 3.5 K/BB ratio heading into the break.  Most impressive is his sub-3.00 ERA, pitching home games in "Coors East".

Matt again makes the AS team in 2015, this time with the Mariners, who signed him to a 3 year, $30 million dollar contract to be their 4th starter.(Don't discount inflation in the next 10 years)  A 9-4 record, 3.12 ERA, and 3.0K/BB ratio help him make his second All-Star team.  A terrible 1-5 slide is mercifully ended by a broken ankle and a slow recovery.

Matt's final AS appearance is for the Mariners in 2016, when he heads into the break at 13-2 with a 3.05 ERA, and a 3.4K/BB ratio.  He finishes up 7-7, losing the last game of the season, knocking Seattle out of a tie for the WC and ending their season.

He signs with SF in 2017, a 4-year $50 million contract, locking him up for what the Giants hope is a string of World Series trips.  Unfortunately, Cain's K/BB ratio drops below 2 for the rest of his career, and injuries begin to catch up with him.  He is sent to the Rangers, who are still trying to find pitching.

After two and half poor years in Arlington, he signs a minor league deal with the Nats, and after pitching somewhat effectively, is moved to the Yankees who need help in their rotation.  He pitches servicably enough to be asked back in 2023, but is released in July after struggling to regain his previous years form and battling injury.  

by gatling on Sep 8, 2005 5:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

cain
wasnt cain a consensus top 5 pitching prospect entering the yr? i would hope that he would have a better career than this

by taggartd on Sep 8, 2005 6:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Consensus?
Consensus top 5 pitching prospect?  So what?  Rick Ankiel and Ryan Anderson were consensus top 5 guys in 2000, they should be so lucky as to have careers like the one John laid out for Cain.  Ditto Matt White, Paul Wilson, Brien Taylor, Todd van Poppel, Roger Salkeld, Ben McDonald, Jesse Foppert and on and on and on...

by CrimsonLiederhosen on Sep 9, 2005 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

RE
after showing some potential from 2005-2007, Cain begins to struggle in 2008.  First of all, he does not even make the team out of spring training.  After Ace Noak Lowry is put on the 60-day DL, Cain gets another shot.  His struggles continue.  Unfortunately, it's more than just mechanics.  Tommy John surgery is required.  He misses the rest of 2008, all of 2009, and is activated in 2010 5 days before the season ends.
  1. Cain signs a 2 year, 15 million dollar contract, due to the phillies taking a risk on a once top-prospect and he was the only quality pitcher to make it past december without signing.
  2. Cains signs a 4 year contract (worth 32 million) with the desperate for pitching mariners.  He has a solid first year, but misses a month with a pulled hammy running to cover first
  3. Cain is traded back to the GIants for the player that was chosen in the 13th round of the 2014 draft by the Giants.  He misses two weeks due to a sprained ankle
  4. Cain resigns to a two year extension with the Giants.  LAter that year he is sent to Texas for two B- prospects.  One is 23 and signed out of the DOminican Republi.  the other is 22 and was chosen by the rangers in the second round of the draft three years ago, but would now be considered a disapointment him self.
  5. Cain signs a one-year contrat
  6. Cain signs a minor league contract, but makes the team after being called up the first week.  He is traded to the Yankees for one of the best SS prospects in the game.
  7. Cain signs a two year contract with the Yankees, but in the middle of April, pulls something in his arm.  After initially being put on the 15day-dl, Cain finds out he needs another Tommy John surgury, which ends his season.
  8. out for the year.  Placed on the 60day DL again by the Yankees
  9. Signs with the DOdgers to a minor league contract.  Cain struggles to return to form in spring, and is cut by the dodgers, ending a somewhat disapointing career.
"A hot dog at the ball park is better than steak at the Ritz." ~Humphrey Bogart

by mrmetaa on Sep 8, 2005 6:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

TJ surgery in early 2008
misses all of 2009. Comes out in Spring '10 but struggles--spends the entire year in the minors, with a brief cameo in SF in September, but with the Giants out of the race is shut down for the season.

Signs with Philly before the 2013 season as a FA. Gets off to a tremendous start--makes the AS team. Falls off down the stretch, as the workload catches up to him. Perhaps continuing the struggles from the end of '13, Cain struggles to find his rythm the next year. He misses four starts with a strained oblique in July, and perhaps this helps him--he finishes strong with a nice showing in October.

Buoyed by his strong finish, he signs a three year deal with the Mariners---who are trying to get back to the postseason after years of languishing in the Angels/A's shadows. Has a pretty good year---his W/L would be much better if the M's offense had supported him more. He suffers from the worst support in the AL. In 2016, he has his career year. Helped by a stronger Mariners team that has finally put together an offense to complement its terrific Hernandez-Cain 1-2 punch, Cain is an allstar--although he is overshadowed by the other Mariner's ace. The M's make the playoffs, but lose in the first round.

Cain misses the start of '17 due to a slight oblique recurrence, but has a solid year. He heads into free agency strong, although some teams worry that about his durability coupled with his age. Fortunately, the Giants are eager to sign him--feeling like they've gotten the short end of the Cain stick.

Unfortunately for the Giants, this continues. Despite pitching pretty well when healthy, over the next year or so Cain is troubled by a variety of nagging injuries. The oblique problem, and a troublesome hamstring. The Rangers, doing anything to find pitching, trade for Cain in late June of '19 (oh my god, I'm FORTY!). He's a mixed bag for them, and they ultimately send him to the pen where he helps them down the stretch for their ultimately unsuccesful playoff drive.

by Alien on Sep 8, 2005 6:23 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Falls into Time Machine
Apparently some time in the early 2008 season Matt Cain accidently falls into a time machine which takes to the late in the 2010 season, which explains why he doesn't age for the year that he misses in 2009.

by ssjames on Sep 8, 2005 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also Explains
The time machine accident also explain the short number of outing in early 2008 and late 2010 with nothing in between.

by ssjames on Sep 8, 2005 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

typo
Typo, obviously! Will fix

by John Sickels on Sep 8, 2005 7:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Damn
I liked that explanation, made it more interesting.

by ssjames on Sep 8, 2005 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like this one
Obviously young players (especially pitchers) are going to have a considerable attrition rate even upon reaching the majors.

That being said, I'm not really sure how one could call this a "somewhat disappointing career". It's true that this isn't every year All Star material by any stretch of the imagination, but a career 4.31 ERA over the course of nearly 20 years? I'd say that sounds like a pretty nice run to me.

by mrkupe on Sep 8, 2005 8:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lack of consistancy
is the real downfall of the whole thing, any top prospect that makes it to the majors I would think its a disappointment with a career below .500 record, and only 2 years of 15 wins or more.  And fair enough, most pitchers don't stick around for that long, or win 140 games, but at the very best he was average.
Rios is the next Juan Gonzales, thats right, I said it.

by KaoticKlown on Sep 8, 2005 8:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

point
See, here's the deal with the chrystal ball stuff: not everyone turns out to be a star. And Cain's pretend career is actually pretty good, a .500 record over more than 2,000 innings.

by John Sickels on Sep 8, 2005 8:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So let me ask you this then
Do you think Cain will have a better career?  Or were you just trying to make an interesting case for analysis?

by cincyinco on Sep 8, 2005 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

who knows
He's CAPABLE of better than that. But I think people are underestimating how good that career actually is. Not everyone is Roger Clemens.

by John Sickels on Sep 8, 2005 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree
You are forcasting Cain to be an abject failure. If you were projecting his numbers in Kansas City or Colorado tyou may have a case, but projecting numbers like these in SBC and Seattle is equivilent to about a 7 era in a nuetral park.
This is a mugggs game. There's nothing 'fun' about projecting an ineffective and injury prone year for career for a 20 year old kid. Is the purpose to remind us that most kids don't have long and fruitfull careers? I don't need the crystal ball to tell me that, and slamming Cain to try to make that point is seedy.

by ProspectHound on Sep 12, 2005 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not Everybody Is Pedro Martinez
Not a single thing wrong with that career.  Just 'cause he doesn't turn into a perennial all-star doesn't mean he's 'failed'.  His 2016 season with the Mariners is a fine thing for any athlete to point at as his.

I'm of the opinion that all-star selections are as much about production the previous year and first-half performances as anything else.  Based on that career, I'd imagine that he does end up going to at least one, perhaps two or three All-Star Games, though I wouldn't want to try to predict which years (other than that shiny 2016).

by NBarnes on Sep 8, 2005 8:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Out On A Limb
More ASGs that you might think; he goes in 2013 from the Phillies, then again in 2015 when he starts well with the Mariners before getting hurt in the second half.  He comes back from that injury to have his best year ever in 2016, leading to ASG #3, and then memories of his 2016 and a solid start lead to a third consecutive appearance in 2017.  His 2017 is a big dip, but he starts hot (again) in 2018, back with San Francisco, and nudges into another ASG.  However, a weak start and lousy secondary numbers in 2019 spell the end of Matt Cain as an all-star.

by NBarnes on Sep 9, 2005 4:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

With that picture
He ain't going to make it to Patsy's beefcake page.  

Sorry - thought we needed a little levity.

by slickwdb on Sep 8, 2005 10:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cain
I found it interesting his best seasons come with his lowest ERA's in the American League witht he Mariners.  I think I would consider that career a disappointment for him since his early ERA's in the National League would be below average.

by murraygd13 on Sep 9, 2005 12:31 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Better than AFW?
After the crushing disappointments that Ainsworth, Foppert and Williams turned out to be, I was ecstatic to see Cain come up and actually have more velocity than I thought.

Right now, he's relying on a somewhat deceptive motion and thus blowing very good fastballs by hitters.  It's just that he's not going to be able to get away with just firing fastballs, no matter how good down the middle forever.  He's got to get some other stuff going or he will end up back in the minors to work on secondary stuff.

Right now I see him as being a lot like Brett Tomko without the headcase stuff.  Of course, if Tomko wasn't a headcase, he be pretty darn good.

by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 9, 2005 1:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Why this may be disappointed as a Giants fan
I mentioned this at my blog, but I think most Giants fans would be disappointed with those numbers because based on what we have been told many Giants fans (wrongly) see Cain as only a few hairs below King Felix.  

In general when it comes to minor leaguers, top picks get so much pub on these type of sites that if they don't become all-stars it is seen as a disappointment.  A lot of teams have so much invested in these guys that they tell fans the future of the team lays with these guys.  So if a guy doesn't immeadiately become Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera, fans might turn on them.

Now I'm not expecting Delmon Young, Upton, and Prince Fielder to all be hall of famers, but if you read a lot of minor league sites you would be lead to believe that a 1 in 3 shot among these guys for the hall of fame is not unlikely.

by sfjg85 on Sep 9, 2005 4:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

ick
2013 - signs a 5 year, $30 million deal with Phillies, who think at 28 he is entering his prime years.  Has a solid first year and a somewhat dissapointing 2nd year, prompting...

2015 - a trade to the Mariners, who are looking for a stabilizing arm to tutor their young trio of pitchers.  After King Felix's devastating arm injury in 2010, this team is still looking for that guy.  Seattle trades Betancourt and old man Meche for Cain.

2018 - after Cain's contract expires, he returns to the Bay Area for the suprising Championship-aspiration Giants, who have a young slugger named Bonds patroling CF.  Cain has lost some of that dominating velocity, but now locates his fastball and changeup much better, and numbers bear witness.

2019 - after young Bonds is caught for steroids for a 2nd time, and thus banished from the game, the suddenly hapless Giants trade Cain to the Rangers for a young SS.

Cain then toils in mediocrity for the final 3 years of his career and hangs up the spikes after an injury-plagued 2023.

by mjwelch11 on Sep 9, 2005 11:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

re
looks okay, not everyone can turn into John Smoltz and most past hyped prospects would have been happy with this type of long career.

I'm looking forward to Delmon Young, but please, I hope you give him more than 2 allstar years and a journeyman career like you have given to Milledge and Cain.  

by ScottAZ on Sep 9, 2005 1:20 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Cain Projection Vs Burkett
This career projection for Cain looks very much like the career of John Burkett.  A league average pitcher who makes it through a long career.  He makes 2 All Star teams based on his amount of wins at the ASB likely 2013 and 2016.  While not the stud people hope he is certainly not a flame out as a prospect.

Cain starts off slowly before being hit by an elbow ailment in 2008.  The Giants try to rest and rehab him before finally in late September he has Tommy John surgery.  Cain comes back from the surgery and becomes a league average pitcher.

Philadelphia signs him to a long term deal of 3 years 18 million with vested options for the 4th and 5th year based on reaching IP goals.

After 2014 Philadelphia trades him to the Mariners for two B- Level pitching prospects.  Both prospects will have arm problems the next year but eventually become league average pitchers themselves. Cain pitches pretty well in his two years with the Mariners.

Cain always liked the seafood in San Francisco so he returns for a 2 year 10 million deal.  The Rangers, desperate for pitching to go with their #1 offense trade underachieving outfielder Trey Griffey for him.

The Rangers re-sign him to a 2 year 9 million dollar deal to keep him there.  By 2021 his fastball has lost quite a bit and he can't keep up with the steroid infused hitters (yes they still exist).

In 2022, he goes to Washington as an NRI in spring training where pitching coach Greg Maddux teaches him to throw to spots and let movement get the hitters out.  The Yankees desperate to make the playoffs with their $300 million payroll trade an A ball pitcher for Cain.

Even though Cain pitched well the Yankees did not make the playoffs. The Yankees re-sign him to a 2 year 15 million deal.  He has elbow issues in spring training which the Yankees pitch him through.  He has surgery in May and never pitches again in the majors.

by Andy on Sep 9, 2005 1:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Looks like shoulder problems to me
Missing his age 23, 24 and 25 seasons sounds like shoulder problems to me. Guys bounce back from TJ surgery in a year these days, so I'm guessing that John is guessing that Cain will have shoulder problems and ultimately shoulder surgery, which is very difficult to come back from. Also, if you notice, he very rarely pitches a complete season, which would indicate that his shoulder bothers him periodically throughout his career, and probably limits his development some.

TJ surgery is more like changing a tire these days. Takes about a year, you are usually good as new, and don't experience the problem again. That's not what we see in Cain's "guesstimate" future

by tbwhite on Sep 9, 2005 2:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hey John!
Did you catch tonight's game against the Cubs?  You might want to get a new crystal ball!

by DrBGiantsfan on Sep 10, 2005 1:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah
i personally think cain will not last quite as long but will burn brighter during the time he pitches; it also seems to me that he may have more success in 2006-7 than this. i also love the fact that john included 2 missed years  due to a major injury.

by jpahk on Sep 10, 2005 9:48 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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