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What the Hell is Wrong with Zack Greinke?


Zack Greinke delivers (AP photo)

What is wrong with Zack Greinke?

He's been getting killed lately. His record now stands at 1-7 with a 6.01 ERA and a 42/18 K/BB in 70 innings, with 87 hits allowed. It is true that the 1-7 record is deceptive; he pitched very well in April and early May, but couldn't win due to non-existent run support. Lately they have been scoring runs for him, but he's been giving up runs at a much faster rate. His ERA stood at 3.09 on May 16th, but he's given up 25 hits and 18 runs in his last 8.2 innings pitched. His last really good start was on May 15th, when he allowed 1 run in 6.2 innings against the Devil Rays, fanning 7.

Four explanatory theories come to mind here. The first theory is that this is all bad luck and he'll come around without major changes. The second theory is that there is something physically wrong with him. The third theory is that the pre-season skepticism about Greinke among some statheads was justified, and that he really isn't a very good pitcher. The fourth theory is that there is something wrong with his current approach, but that it is fixable.

I've seen most of Greinke's starts on TV this year, including the last few disasters. I can attest that this is NOT bad luck. He's been getting plastered legitimately . . .this is not just a bunch of squiggly grounders through the infield or bloop hits falling in.

Early in the season, he had nearly perfect location and command, could dial up his fastball to 94 MPH at will, and threw excellent breaking stuff for strikes. Just like last year. Lately, however, all of his pitches have been flat. He can still dial up the velocity, but when he does the fastball goes wild outside the zone. Instead of hitting the corners with his fastball, he's throwing stuff right down the middle of the plate. He keeps hanging his slider. His curveball is still pretty good, but it doesn't have quite the same bite as earlier in the season, and with his other pitches off, the curve by itself isn't enough. He hasn't been using his changeup as often, and when he does the hitters have been hitting it like they know it is coming. We can definitely discard theory one; this is not bad luck.

There doesn't seem to be anything physically wrong with him, no hints of shoulder or elbow trouble. Despite his problems, he does not look like a pitcher in pain, and if there was something obviously wrong with his arm, the Royals would certainly have shut him down by now. Of course, it's possible that there is nothing obviously wrong that the Royals can detect, but that there is something bothering him that he won't talk about. Runelvys Hernandez blew out his elbow a couple of years ago because he refused to admit that he'd been pitching in pain. Greinke can be stubborn, but he doesn't seem so stupid as to hide an injury. Assuming that is true, it comes down to theory three (he's not very good) or theory four (it is a temporary rough patch).

According to this article, Greinke has finally asked pitching coach Guy Hansen for some advice. There was talk this spring that Greinke was resisting Hansen's instruction. That seems to have changed.

Greinke now has 37 career Major League starts. He is 9-18 with a 4.64 ERA and a 142/44 K/BB ratio in 215 innings, with 230 hits allowed. Those are still impressive numbers for a 21-year-old. Greg Maddux through age 21 was 8-18 with a 5.59 ERA. If he'd gone to college, Greinke would have been drafted again just last week, no doubt in the first round. It is way too early to conclude that Greinke isn't a very good pitcher.

I'm not saying there is nothing to worry about. Indeed, there is. Greinke has to figure out what has gone wrong. Is he tipping his pitches? Is there a mechanical problem? Is there (deep breath among Royals fans) a hidden health issue? The good news here (assuming the article above is correct) is that he is now actively taking steps to remedy the situation. It's too bad he didn't do this earlier in the year, but sometimes people have to make mistakes before they learn. I wouldn't panic about a series of rough starts from a 21-year-old pitching for a poor team, not when the same 21-year-old has pitched quite well in the recent past.

Nevertheless, it is gut check time for Zack Greinke. Given his past history, there is a good chance he can sort things out, provided that there is no underlying health problem. If he's still sitting with a 6.00 ERA in September, then we can worry that the skeptics are right and that he's really not very good. But at this point, I think patience is advised.

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Psychological maybe?

I haven't watched Greinke much this year, but when I see how he was strong early and then fell apart, I can't help but think about Joe Blanton. Blanton isn't nearly as good as Greinke, but nevertheless, he started off strong in April and his team wasn't scoring any runs for him. Then he fell apart, even when he was getting some run support. Danny Haren also had some problems with this, and he has turned it around recently.

My impression is that young pitchers can get caught up in W/L records, and the unfairness of taking a loss when you only give up a run or two. They go into a start figuring they won't win, or they have to be perfect. They think too much, try to be too fine, and fall apart.

Being 21 and expected to be the best pitcher on a terrible team is a lot of pressure, especially if he feels he has to win every time out. At least guys like Blanton have someone like Zito to take the pressure off.

by Alien on Jun 13, 2005 1:33 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

yes
Yes, I think this is a part of it. Early in the year, Greinke was saying stuff like "If they score one run for me, it should be good enough for me to win and if it isn't that's my fault."

This isn't 1965, and no one should be expected to win with 1 run per start.

by John Sickels on Jun 13, 2005 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

what's wrong
I think he's trying too hard and could probably use some mechanical tweaks.  If he listens to Hansen, I think he could bounce back--starting in his next couple of starts.

I think this may be a very good thing that has happened.  Greinke has never failed at baseball and he seems like the type of guy who will work at trying to fix this first major hiccup. Hopefully, this will make him into a better pitcher.  

Some KC fans have questioned how much he cares about baseball and winning.  I don't think that is an issue--he's just a laidback guy, but he definitely seems like a competitor.  I agree with John, if anything, he is trying too hard to be perfect.

by nwroyal on Jun 13, 2005 2:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ridiculous
Anybody who questions his desire to win isn't paying attention...
Go ahead and shoot your mouth off, like it might kill the silence.

by ESiegrist on Jun 13, 2005 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Another idea
I don't think there's much pressure on Zach Greinke. He knows he's 21. Nobody's asking him to be Jake Peavy or Roy Halladay or Clemens. The Royals are asking him to pitch -- just like any other guy.

I remain confident he'll be OK. I'm not a Royals guy. I don't own Greinke in any of my leagues, so there's no obvious bias. He's 21. I think he's doing pretty well considering his age, his preposterously short minor-league career and the state of his organization.

I feel the same way about Greinke as I did about Bonderman last year. Give them some time. Even if Greinke is 4-15/5.20 in September, let him keep pitching. He'll catch on.

President, Gookie Dawkins Fan Club (2001); Jose Ortiz Fan Club (2002); Corwin Malone Fan Club (2003); Dustin McGowan Fan Club (2004) ...

by jayg on Jun 13, 2005 3:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Sickels nailed it
when he said the word "location" as Zach is not hitting spots like he did last year.  I've caught 5 of his starts and he is splitting the plate more than nailing corners (like '04).  His velo is there as is the changing of speeds.  He will be fine.

A KC fan may weigh in on this point--didn't Hansen and Zach get into a heated exchange during spring training over which side of the rubber Zach prefers to pitch on?  The point being--why the hell is Hansen messing with him after his very solid '04 and in spring?  And can this affect Zach due to this relationship?

Zach should do a little sutdying of his '04 mechanics/pitch sequences and see why he's not hitting corners as opposed to finding the center of the plate.

by So Cal Bob on Jun 13, 2005 4:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Minor quibble
It's Zack not Zach.  And the idiots at BBTN still call him Grunke, which makes no sense because I don't see how the spelling Greinke sounds like Grunk-e.  Idiots.

by twill on Jun 13, 2005 4:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

stupid
God, I'm stupid. I hate mistakes like that. will fix.

by John Sickels on Jun 13, 2005 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hardly
I would hardly call you stupid for the minor oversight of replacing a K with an H.  

by twill on Jun 13, 2005 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've seen it
both ways for 2 years now.  It's an honest mistake, not out of stupidity.  You proven your worth and intellect through the years.  :-)

by So Cal Bob on Jun 13, 2005 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

sloppy
It was sloppy. I've been watching Greinke pitch for 3 years and mistakes like that just drive me nuts.

by John Sickels on Jun 13, 2005 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See Myers, Brett

Three years ago.   Couldn't Greinke's path easily be the same?  Myers was touted as ace stuff all over the place right from the get go.  1 year older than Zack when he came up.  Easy to forget since he has been pitching 3 years with mediocre success.    Stuff's pretty much the same, just Myers is using it more effectively at keeping hitters off balance than he did previously. I remember a lot of the same words used to describe Myers that were used for Greinke.

by roaddog on Jun 13, 2005 5:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Excellent Comp
I hadn't thought of the Myers comp, but it fits very well. Good four-seam velocity, but not really a K pitch. Physique.

by Mr Met on Jun 14, 2005 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Growing pains
Chad Gaudin went through the same spell last year, in Tampa. Lou Pinella said his slider just went flat. But, Gaudin bounced back. Zack will be fine.

by Goodfella on Jun 13, 2005 8:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Don't like posting this
because it might make John sad...

I'd feel better about Greinke turning it around if he wasn't in the Royals system...

I have a hard time believing that all these guys could succeed in the minors but somehow can't survive the bigs.  I guess it wouldn't surprise me if Zack wasn't listening to the pitching coach, since I'd be skeptical the Royals staff could help me given their track record.

by SLK on Jun 13, 2005 9:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

coach
Hansen is a new coach, brought in this year, although he previously worked in the Royals system back in the glory years.

Remember, I'm more of a Twins fan than anything. I'm still happy that Dick Such is gone! :)

by John Sickels on Jun 13, 2005 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm worried
I drafted Greinke in my Strato league last year and this year in my Fantasy League.

I've watched most of his starts. The last one, everything was up and without any zip. I suspect physical problems because I can't think of any other rational explanation.

My other question for John is: Could it be that he has TOO MANY pitches and should just stick to establishing the FB and possibly eliminating the curve or slider?

I won't get married until the Red Sox win the World Series. AGAIN!!

by Shep on Jun 13, 2005 11:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

no
No, I don't think so. His wide repertoire is what makes him so effective. If he's healthy I think he will rebound.

by John Sickels on Jun 14, 2005 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Greinke and Strat
Hey Shep, I'm a proud Greinke owner in Strat as well. No. 3 overall. I wanted David Wright--obviously--but he went first.

I'm concerned in the short term, but my team is not built for instant success anyway, as evidenced by the high draft position. If he continues to struggle, or is hurt, he can come back and still be a dominant pitcher at a young age.

Interestingly, I didn't make a strong play for Greinke in my Roto leagues. I expect him to be about league-average this season, then pick it up next year.

by Mr Met on Jun 14, 2005 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe it's the lefties
He's getting tattooed by lefthanded batters: 336/392/572 while faring pretty well against righties: 255/303/411.  The teams that he has struggled against like Cleveland, St Louis, Texas and Arizona have many lefthanded batters.  Against Texas, Teixeira, Blalock and Nix really hurt him.  Against St. Louis it was Mabry, together with the indominable Pujols.  And against Arizona, there was Counsell, Cintron, Tracey, Gonzalez and Green.

He has pitched very well against the White Sox, who besides not hitting well at the time are righty dominant.  

by Yethal on Jun 14, 2005 7:50 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Odd
It was the righties who hit for power against him last year:

vs. R .262/.300/.524
vs. L .251/.295/.399

by Mr Met on Jun 14, 2005 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

grienke info
Greinke continues to suffer from bad luck, remaining a good buy low target in keeper leagues... If owners of Zack Greinke (RHP, KC) didn't have him on the trading block already, he's probably there now. He was bombed for 11 ER at ARI on Friday. This came after giving up seven ER to TEX in his previous start. Greinke's ERA is now over 6.00, he has just one victory, and his bullpen is in disarray. What's to like? Well, he's just 21. And his skills are not nearly as bad as his results would indicate:

Year   Ctl   Dom   HR/9   H%   S%
==   =   =   ==   =   =
2004   1.7   6.1    1.5   28   74
2005   2.2   5.5    1.0   31   64

Not much skill erosion here. In fact, Greinke's xERA sits at 4.08 and he has a BPV of 57. The problem has been a bit of bad luck over the last month. He has a hit rate of 37% and a strand rate of 57% over that period. And some of his base skills have actually improved during that timeframe:

2005           Ctl   Dom
====   =   =
Last 4 Weeks   2.8   6.6

Owners in keeper leagues should note that Greinke is averaging just 89 pitches per game and is on pace for 187 IP this season. His skills are still good, he's got a great future, and he has enough skill ability to turn things around a bit before the season's over.

by FRANCHISEv2 on Jun 14, 2005 10:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the consoling words
I like Franchise's stats and Mr. Met, I should have waited a year in Fantasy to take him.

He reminds me of Bonderman to the extent that it may take what John would call a "consolidation" year (in the Majors no less) to figure this pitching thing out.

Btw I have Bonderman in my Strato league too.

I won't get married until the Red Sox win the World Series. AGAIN!!

by Shep on Jun 14, 2005 10:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comps
Bonderman's a good comp. Myers works, too. Guys who've debute recently, shown glimpses, but struggled.

Or how about Peavy? His debut season was good for a 20-year-old, but nothing special. Then in his second year he was good, but not great:

195 ip, 4.11 era, 7.2 k9, 3.8 w9, 1.31 whip, 33 hr

This was in the NL in a pitcher's park, but not Petco.

And, of course, he took a huge step forward his third season, 2004:

167 ip, 2.27 era, 9.4 k9, 2.9 w9, 1.20 whip, 13 hr

by Mr Met on Jun 15, 2005 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Time to re-evaluate?
It's been two months since John wrote this article, and Greinke's stats have gotten worse, not better.  Have any of the optimistic posters of two months ago changed their tune?  I know he's 22 and has shown great promise, but his numbers are pretty alarming this season, especially hits/IP, and ERA.  Comments?  

by Highwood61 on Aug 30, 2005 1:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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