Panic on The Streets of Chicago

by John Sickels on Mar 14, 2005 6:46 PM EST in News

Most Comparable Pitchers to Mark Prior through Age 24

By Sim Score
Scott Sanderson (good pitcher but not durable)
Junior Thompson (good pitcher but career cut short by WW2)
Bob Welch (good pitcher but had some injuries in his 20s)
Scott Erickson (good pitcher but arm dead after 31)
Bill Gullickson (good pitcher, lost velocity in mid-20s)
Andy Benes (good pitcher, arm dead at 33)
Steve Carlton (Hall of Famer, durable)
Weldon Henley (good pitcher age 22-24, arm dead at 25)
Roger Clemens (Hall of Famer, durable)

By PECOTA
Ralph Branca (good pitcher, arm dead at 26)
Don Wilson (good pitcher, killed (literally) at age 29)
Bill Singer (good pitcher, arm dead at 32)
Don Drysdale (Hall of Famer, finished at 32)
Lou Brissie (good pitcher, arm dead at 27)
Britt Burns (good pitcher, career over at 27)
Jim Maloney (good pitcher, arm dead at 29)
Jim Nash (good pitcher, arm dead at 26)
Steve Busby (good pitcher, arm dead at 26)

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Comments

Prior

Even as a Reds fan, I hate to think that someone so talented at the game I love to play and watch just can't stay healthy.

It's always been my thoughts, and they continue to be re-enforced, that Dusty Baker is the wrong steward for that ship of young, talented but injury prone group of arms.

by jmcclain19 on Mar 14, 2005 7:20 PM EST 0 recs

Ahhhhhhhh!!!!!

....Ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

by slurve on Mar 14, 2005 7:43 PM EST 0 recs

Are you trying to hurt me?

That's the most depressing list I have ever seen.

by dirtyj76 on Mar 14, 2005 7:48 PM EST 0 recs

But

This new injury isn't serious . . . no nerve damage . . . right? . . . right?

Sigh

I'd blame Dusty Baker, but it can't all be his fault.

by sasquatch83 on Mar 14, 2005 7:50 PM EST 0 recs

Nah...

We can blame Dusty Baker for this... I don't know how he sleeps at night considering the damage he has done to so many promising young careers. Pitiful. This is how I will remember him, and for nothing else.

by okbluejays on Mar 14, 2005 9:24 PM EST up 0 recs

Mike Marshall

Does Mike Marshall have any credibility? Are his thoughts on Prior's elbow legit?

by Cabbage on Mar 14, 2005 8:08 PM EST 0 recs

Marshall

The guy's a doctor and a physiologist, and in addition pitched for 14 years. Yeah, he does have a business to counsel pitchers (at drmikemarshall.com), but I'd put more stock in his opinions than that of your average GM or manager, if that's what you mean.

You didn't provide a link, so I had to go looking, but I found some excerpts at the Cub Reporter:

http://www.all-baseball.com/cubreporter/archives/014558.html

Prior's a wonderful talent, and I hope Marshall is wrong. But I wouldn't want to bet against a guy with that much experience and knowledge.

by Flynn Blake on Mar 14, 2005 8:49 PM EST up 0 recs

Marshall is cleary insane

He sounds downright paranoid at times.

But he may be right, and I certainly don't have the background to doubt him much. Until he makes statements like "never get hurt."

If you look at his website, he requires his trainees to give him 5% of ALL future earnings in baseball. [I have my doubts as to the enforceability of that contract]

by irwin on Mar 14, 2005 11:38 PM EST up 0 recs

Mike Marshall

Mike Marshall is an enigma. He's a very smart guy who has a degree in Kinesiology. When he was player he claimed to have figured out how to throw a screwball without ruining his arm. Had a couple of great years as the Dodgers closser, then, you guessed it, he ruined his arm. He may be right about Mark Prior, but he's also crazy and very into self promotion.

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 15, 2005 1:14 AM EST up 0 recs

Wow

That is amazing, and makes the Cub fan in me cry. I hope Prior can break that string.

by kannc6 on Mar 14, 2005 9:37 PM EST 0 recs

You know what...

I almost cried.

I'm an almost grown ass man. I'm almost crying over baseball.

I hate Dusyt Baker though.

If Prior is ruined, I don't know what I can do. Its weird, can you really have faith in an orginization that ruinds a pitcher that special (and yes I know he's not done yet)? Especially after another one (Wood) hasn't been close to what he's capable of (but still remains my fav) and the All time great was let go for amazing years in another city?

I think God hates us. I wish he liked Cubs fans, just a little bit.

by SenorGato88 on Mar 14, 2005 10:46 PM EST 0 recs

You know what...

I almost cried.

I'm an almost grown ass man. I'm almost crying over baseball.

I hate Dusyt Baker though.

I think God hates us. I wish he liked Cubs fans, just a little bit.

Someone just say Prior will be healthy for the next 15 years and we still have a future.

by SenorGato88 on Mar 14, 2005 10:47 PM EST 0 recs

Ass man!

The Ass Man! I think I saw you on Seinfeld.

by sabernar on Mar 14, 2005 11:44 PM EST up 0 recs

Wasn't

Dick Assman also a running David Letterman joke?

by sasquatch83 on Mar 15, 2005 1:23 AM EST up 0 recs

There's no crying in baseball!

I can assume that everybody knows where thsi quote comes from.

by secret asian man on Mar 16, 2005 4:34 AM EST up 0 recs

I feel a little bad, but...

As a Cards fan, I have to be pleased with the Cubs luck. I was living in Bellingham, WA when the Cubs made the NLCS... Everywhere totured Mariner fans wearing fairweather Cubs gear.

God loves the Red Birds (accept last year, 'course...)

--Starscream44-- "I've had pretty good success with Stan Musial by throwing him my best pitch and backing up third." - Carl Erskine

by Starscream44 on Mar 14, 2005 11:31 PM EST 0 recs

except, I mean... whoops.

--Starscream44-- "I've had pretty good success with Stan Musial by throwing him my best pitch and backing up third." - Carl Erskine

by Starscream44 on Mar 14, 2005 11:33 PM EST up 0 recs

yuk.....

I thought Prior was supposed to have perfect mechanics. Does anyone besides this Mike Marshall guy disparage them?

I traded away a decent amount to get Prior this offseason... sigh

free Josh Willingham!

by natsfan2005 on Mar 15, 2005 12:02 AM EST 0 recs

Dick Mills

Dick Mills also brought up that he short arms a few years ago.

I haven't heard Dick Mills in a while though.

by SenorGato88 on Mar 15, 2005 12:06 AM EST 0 recs

DP

what about Dick Pole...
I'm sorry, I'm immature but thats one of the funnier names in MLB

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/team/coach_staff_bio.jsp?c_id=chc&coachorstaffid=31610311 1914

free Josh Willingham!

by natsfan2005 on Mar 15, 2005 12:09 AM EST up 0 recs

gold standard

now mike marshall is a knowledgeable guy... but reading his comments he sounds like he's pitching an infomercial.

This site says Prior's mechanics are the "gold standard" of what should be taught.
http://www.sandiegogaitlab.com/chp/sfexaminer.htm

I doubt there right either given he is already getting shut down in spring training.

free Josh Willingham!

by natsfan2005 on Mar 15, 2005 12:13 AM EST 0 recs

Mike Marshall

Even back in 1974 when he pitched 118 games and over 200 inning as a RELIEF pitcher I think he already had his doctorate. Add in whatever he's learned in 30 years and I think he has the right to comment on all pitchers. He always was an ego-maniac but how many professional baseball players combined his skills with his brains?

Still think his 1974 season was one of the greatest I've ever witnessed. I was 16 at the time and to see him come in just about every game and were not talking 3 outs, but many two inning games and if I recall even some 3 inning games was just incredible. Everyone talks about Goose and Fingers and Marshall didn't last as long but no reliever ever had that season. Liked to have seen what Gagne numbers would have been if he had even thrown 1/2 those innings during his Cy Young season. Why no one talks about that season is a mystery to me.

Patience is for those who die waiting for something to happen.

by ToyCannon on Mar 15, 2005 1:23 AM EST 0 recs

Mechanics

My Cubsfan friend always tried to tell me Prior had the perfect mechanics. He doesn't look anything like Greg Maddux to me.

by rwperu34 on Mar 15, 2005 1:40 AM EST 0 recs

MIKE MARSHALL

I have never heard of the guy, but he seems really interesting. He must have a huge ego because it really comes out in this BP interview.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/20021022keri.shtml

He's not really saying Prior's mechanics are bad. He's saying that ALL pitchers who don't pitch his way are doing it wrong and are more likely to get hurt.

He may be right, but we won't know until a large enough group of pitchers try it and someone does a study. Baseball's incredibly slow to change so he very well could be right. At least he has some science to back it up.

by kgknapp on Mar 15, 2005 3:21 AM EST 0 recs

I read the whole article

It was interesting to say the least.

Then I checked the stats on Jeff Sparks. Maybe Marshall ought to teach these guys how to throw strikes. He walked a man an inning in 30 major league innings, and over 5 per nine innings in his minor league career. The funny thing is, even with all those walks, Sparks's ERA was 4.15 in the bigs and 3.85 in the minors.

I wonder what Marshall could do for my 53 MPH fastball?

by rwperu34 on Mar 15, 2005 3:47 PM EST up 0 recs

Sad, very sad - what happen to the perfect motion

I was wondering what happened to all those guys saying that Prior had the perfect pitching motion - would go injury free.

Now reading the exerts, you would think his motion was all wrong.

Makes Roger Clemens more of a marvel to watch and follow (definately history in the making!).

by kmcsql on Mar 15, 2005 7:59 AM EST 0 recs

Re: Clemens

I have been to over 1000 major and minor league games in my life and on of the most impressive things I have everseen at the ballpark was Roger Clemens warming up prior to a start in Arlington. Dont remember the year, but he was with the jays...I was sitting on the first row leaning overthe bullpen and The intensity, power and professionalism of what he was doing impressed me to no end...Of course my kids were intrested in nachos and sodas, but that image always comes to my mind when i think of clemens....

by kannc6 on Mar 15, 2005 9:53 AM EST 0 recs

Genetics

I think this has more to do with genetics, or muscle structure, or just being injury prone, than pitching motion.

There is no perfect way to throw a baseball, it is all very taxing on the arm and shoulder. The hips, obliques, knees.

I don't think our bodies were made for throwing a baseball, that being said, the guys who seem to have throw with less torque and violence in their delivery.

For example, the Braves had soft tossers Maddux and Glavine, and their motion is very quiet, and I can't recall them spending a whole lot of time on the DL, or ever requiring surgery to repair arm damage, then contrast that to Smoltz who throws very hard, has a fairly violent delivery, and he has had four elbow surgeries during the same stretch of years while throwing less innings.

and yes I think Dusty Baker has done a fair bit to harm the careers of some very talented young pitchers, and before it is all said and done he will many more.

by JFP on Mar 15, 2005 10:04 AM EST 0 recs

Dusty Baker...

Is probably the worst thing to happen to the careers of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.

I'd rather have a manager like Phil Garner or Ned Yost dealing with a lot of young pitchers. They won't run them into the ground by age 27. Ben Sheets will probably have a much longer career than either of those two, I bet.

A pro-artificial turf, pro-designated hitter baseball fan.

by Harold on Mar 15, 2005 1:28 PM EST 0 recs

Yeah it may be part Baker

but Zambrano hasn't shown any effects (yet) and he has pitched 2 complete seasons under him. Prior and Wood didn't last much over 1. I think he has some to do with it, but it's not all his fault.

by Ienpw on Mar 15, 2005 1:34 PM EST up 0 recs

Z-Man

Didn't Zambrano report forearm tightness a couple times last year? That's a scary spot.

by bootsy on Mar 15, 2005 6:27 PM EST up 0 recs

This is more depressing than Million Dollar Baby

He was supposed to be the perfect pitcher, with perfect mechanics. He looks to be down the Kevin Brown path if you asked me, or maybe I am an eternal optimist.

by Ienpw on Mar 15, 2005 1:32 PM EST 0 recs

not all bad

It's not all bad, Cub fans. Note the presence of extremely durable guys like Carlton and Clemens.

Everyone on this list was a good pitcher, and guys like Maloney and Busby were potentially GREAT if they had avoided injury. Also note that medical technology is a lot better than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

by John Sickels on Mar 15, 2005 1:37 PM EST 0 recs

I think....

I think people are reacting more towards the current news about Prior's elbow than the comps to injured plagued pitchers.

A comp is just a informed guess. This news about Prior having elbow troubles for the 2nd time in a year is reality as much as I wish it wasn't so.

free Josh Willingham!

by natsfan2005 on Mar 15, 2005 1:49 PM EST up 0 recs

Ball Four?

Is this the same Mike Marshall the appears in Ball Four?

--Starscream44-- "I've had pretty good success with Stan Musial by throwing him my best pitch and backing up third." - Carl Erskine

by Starscream44 on Mar 15, 2005 4:18 PM EST 0 recs

hmmmm....

how was he portrayed in Ball Four? Was he a wack job?

free Josh Willingham!

by natsfan2005 on Mar 15, 2005 4:22 PM EST up 0 recs

yep

Yes, that's him.

by John Sickels on Mar 15, 2005 4:23 PM EST up 0 recs

What to do with Wood and Prior

If I were the Cubs, I'd try to trade them mid season. If they put up some good numbers, you can get a bit for them on rep alone. Just try to play down the injurys. Both suffer from reoccuring Arm and Shoulder injuries and it will only get worse.

The other option I guess is to put them in the relief role as sort of ultra relievers. Both could be 2-3 inning closers I guess, and hope that the lower # of innings makes them last a full season. The Cubs need to cash in on Wood and Prior before their arms completly fall off.

by Zonis on Mar 16, 2005 2:59 AM EST 0 recs

Trade

"Just try to play down the injurys"

Something tells me the cat is already out of the bag.

by bbrewer124 on Mar 16, 2005 1:47 PM EST 0 recs

Not Baker's fault

Prior is the first pitcher under Dusty's watch to battle arm injuries. Check out my blog to see the lack of evidence against Dusty.
http://waterfrontbaseball.blogspot.com/

by sfjg85 on Mar 16, 2005 10:31 PM EST 0 recs