Casey for Dave Williams

by sasquatch83 on Dec 6, 2005 10:32 PM EST

Pirates pick up Casey's 8.5 million to bat ahead of Jason Bay, and the Reds pick up Dave Williams, who gave up 20 HR in 138 innings this year. Together with Eric Milton, they have a chance to break 80 HR allowed just by themselves.

Apparently this is a done deal pending physicals. The Reds couldn't have gotten a hard throwing reliever out of Casey? Instead they get a guy who has a K/BB of 88/58...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2250330

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yup

i completely agree. the pirates just absolutely robbed the reds. Casey is an underrated player who doesn't get nearly enough attention. He could actually be a bargain at 8.5 mil a year. I understand that this could be a salary dump situation, but come on. A straight up deal with just Dave Williams? The reds could have at least gotten prospects out of this deal...absolutely terrible

by forage @ Minor League Ball on Dec 6, 2005 10:56 PM EST reply actions

Looking at the stats

Everyone knocks Casey for not hitting enough home runs, but my main problem with him is the 27 GIDPs, which led the league.

by sasquatch83 on Dec 6, 2005 11:01 PM EST reply actions

Casey a bargain?

A 1B who will probably never see an 800 OPS again for 8.5 Million?

Given the Pirates, I bet he drops to a 700 OPS in the near future, making him almost worthless (but very expensive).

Now the Reds get essentially nothing in return, but at his $, you need to give something to have someone take Casey's $.

by cdamon @ Minor League Ball on Dec 6, 2005 11:02 PM EST reply actions

Casey

Given that his career OBP is .371, he would have to seriously lose all his power to have an OPS under .700.

by sasquatch83 on Dec 6, 2005 11:04 PM EST up reply actions

easy

If you drop his fluke year of 2004, his last 3 years have an avg SP below 400. And only one of those years (last year) had an OBP > 350. Given an age decline, a 280/340/360 line is not unreasonable.

Realistically I expect better than that, but given that the Bucs acquired him, he will probably tank. A line of 300/365/390 is probably about right. I certainly wouldn't want my low budget team paying a big chunk of their budget for a 755 OPS 1B.

by cdamon @ Minor League Ball on Dec 7, 2005 7:48 AM EST up reply actions

It is a nice pickup by the Pirates

Isn't Casey an OBP machine? He will do well hitting in front of Bay.

Throw in a 'scrap heap' player (i.e. a player who has a big name, but probably isn't expected to do much, but may surprise), like Garciaparra or Sosa, and that is a nice little middle of the order.

by akk99 on Dec 6, 2005 11:03 PM EST reply actions

this is one that`s

going to be hard to figure out for a long time. cincinnati had to be going about this the wrong way at the meetings or something. they must have had a for sale sign outside their suite. other teams had to operate knowing cincy was bent over a table. of all the worthwhile, inexpensive, players/prospects casey should have brought back this is hard to swallow. he should be a very effective run producer for the next 3/5 years while adding some protection for bay which should increase overall production in pitt. and they don`t even have bowden to blame for this. this truly is a double whammy.

by thisisthezodiacspeaking (61590) on Dec 6, 2005 11:06 PM EST reply actions

Purely a dump trade...

Get whatever you can to open up 1B for Dunn so you don't have to trade your outfielders.

by limozeen on Dec 6, 2005 11:19 PM EST reply actions

i agree but

surely they could have gotten something more seviceable than david williams. his only saving grace is he throws left-handed although any benefits will be offset by having to pitch in cincy. with cincy`s injury/non-performance history this also takes away some of their depth. casey may have been overpaid for what he actually delivers on the field but what he delivered wasn`t in the negative which is what williams brings IMO.

by thisisthezodiacspeaking (61590) on Dec 6, 2005 11:32 PM EST reply actions

For all of Casey's salary?

The Pirates are the only ones dumb enough to assume 100K for every OPS point Casey will put up next year.

by limozeen on Dec 6, 2005 11:35 PM EST reply actions

Personally...

I'm surprised the Reds didn't get a decent prospect or two out of this.

Hello everyone,

When I seen this trade go down, I thought, "who is Williams?" I thought it was Dave Williams, but I had to look it up just to be sure, along with his stats because I'm not all that familiar with him.

I know Casey has his flaws, but I think most would still agree he's an above-average player (at least offensively,) so getting a middle-level, decent prospect or two should have been quite doable.

Besides that, as John just pointed out yesterday in his Pirates Top 10, the Pirates' farm system isn't that bad. In fact, I thought it was worse than it actually is - I'd probably put it around 15 or so in terms of rankings. Cincinnati couldn't get one or two of Pittsburgh's Top 30 prospects for Casey?!

No offense, but management decisions like this, along with untimely injuries, are preventing the Reds' farm system from producing any ML players lately. That's why they had to spend some large amounts last year on guys who were questionable (like Eric Milton, Paul Wilson, etc.,) and trading for players like Ramon Ortiz, etc.

That's why the Reds are dwelling near the bottom of the NL Central and probably will be for the next few years if they keep making ill-advised trades like this.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Take care and have a good day!

by indiansfan on Dec 7, 2005 12:41 AM EST reply actions

I don't think it's a bad move

They free up 8 million, and they get better offensively without Casey in the line-up. He was overpaided, and to get a decent prospect, it would have probably required sending money. Now they can get Dunn, WMP, JR, and Kearns all in the line-up at the same time. With EdE, and Lopez on the left side of the infield, I think their line-up actually got better because of this. If they are smart, they'll invest part of the money is a decent relief pitcher, and the rest into scouting and development, because they need to do everything they can to build up their farm system. Maybe save all the money and invest it into Boras guys who fall next year.

"Chuck Lamar, you're fired"- Stuart Sternburg.

by Tyler on Dec 7, 2005 12:46 AM EST reply actions

helps both teams

I think this deal is good for both teams. The Pirates get to put a major leaguer at first base for the first time in a long time. I would have rather seen them trade Kip Wells for a young first baseman with more upside, but this isn't a bad move. For the Reds, it's about what they do with Casey's money. Casey for Williams and a $7 million player is pretty fair -- as long as it's not a Miltonesque pitcher. And the sweetest part is moving Dunn to first and creating a spot for Wily Mo Pena.

If the Reds spend the Casey money wisely, I think this deal benefits them more than the Pirates.

by bolton on Dec 7, 2005 1:28 AM EST reply actions

williams

isn't a bad pitcher. Watched him throw I believe a 1 hitter through 8 this summer. Nothing flashy but he gets the job done. Nice guy to have in the 4-5 slot. I would like to know how much if any of Casey's salary they are eating. I read they may be doing that. That I think makes or breaks the trade in a teams favor.

by chanman on Dec 7, 2005 7:08 AM EST reply actions

Balls flying in the river

Great America is not a great spot for Williams. I don't see him improving on that 4.41. I'm thinking that post traumatic stress syndrome is likely.

by 3Com Park on Dec 7, 2005 12:40 PM EST up reply actions

The Reds traded the right player

As always, with the Reds, this deal depends on what they are doing with the money saved in the deal. If they actually spend it on payroll, AND bring in good free agents (not Wilson, Milton, etc) then this is a good deal. If they continue to go after the over valued pitchers or pass the money up to ownership coffers, then fans will boo the owner on Opening Day again this year.

Unfortunately for the Reds, the traded Casey 1 year too late. His value was probably its highest last offseason. Williams was the best they could get?

Unfortunately for the Pirates, they could have had their pick of below average first baseman from the FA pool for less money and without trading Williams. Kevin Millar comes to mind as an inexpensive option at 1st.

by rojosoto on Dec 7, 2005 2:56 PM EST reply actions