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A disgraceful top 100 list

http://www.baseballnotebook.com/essay.asp?esource=e_121405.asp&topt=Top%20100%20Prospects

# 3 is Pence
# 4 is Travis Denker

Mike Carp is listed a few spots above Brandon Wood.

You get the idea. What a bunch of idiots.

============================

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top 100 list
i agree! i`ve never seen anyone rank these players where they rank them. they had felix hernandez 19th and carlos quentin 64th or 84th. it`s really bizarre.

by thisisthezodiacspeaking on Dec 18, 2005 12:09 AM EST   0 recs

What the Hell???
Sure, Scott Baker should have a great career, but he put him ahead of Felix!?!?! WTF??

by Justin & Joe on Dec 18, 2005 12:13 AM EST   0 recs

Not to rip the guy, but...
Hello captoats85,

He mentions Javier Herrera as falling to #7 in this edition from #3 - he's actually #8, so he didn't double-check his work either. :-)

Overall, a few of his rankings make sense, but many of them don't, and some of the prospects he ranks I've never heard of before, especially the middle to end of the listing.

How does he rank Felix Hernandez, Francisco Liriano, Jeremy Sowers, Fausto Carmona, and Scott Olsen (among others, like Broxton) so low on this list?  I think they are all ranked too low - Hernandez #20, Liriano #23, Sowers #72, Carmona #77, Olsen #97 (behind #94 Derek Thompson, a former Indians prospect and #96 Jose Capellan?!)

I didn't read his entire introduction because I don't have much time at the moment, but I can't see how he can justify many of those rankings, no matter what criteria he uses.  

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Take care and have a good Sunday!

by indiansfan on Dec 18, 2005 12:17 AM EST   0 recs

take it easy
Hey guys dont rip him too too much!! Its just one man's personal opinion :)
Sabean, stop giving away our 1st round draft picks!!

by z4 landshark on Dec 18, 2005 12:24 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I like his explanation for Felix Herenandez...
He thinks he is only going to win 2 or 3 Cy Youngs, as opposed to the 7 everyone else thinks he is going to win.  That is bulletproof logic.

by templeUsox on Dec 18, 2005 12:35 AM EST   0 recs

Yeah, so I guess that means
He thinks Baker and Duke will win more Cy Youngs than Felix and guys like Hunter Pence and Marcus Sanders will win multiple MVP's since they are above Felix.  That guy is a whack job.  P-E-R-I-O-D.  I first saw his site last year about this time.  Want a better laugh, go look and see what kind of players were ahead of Felix last year on the top 100 AL pitchers list.  I followed some of newsletters he was writing last year and he kept harping on how Greg Maddux was gonna have some ridiculously great year, even after his early struggles, he stood his ground projecting Cy Young worthy numbers.  Pssst, hey Luciano.  I have a heads up for ya.  Maddux's skills have been in decline for a while.  Then he kept harping on "look, I discovered Jason Kubel before anyone!"  Well, Confucious say, you throw enough nuts out in the yard, the blind squirrel is bound to find one.  I like to see differing opinions and to be exposed to some things that no one else is covering, but this guy...
"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Dec 18, 2005 1:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

MATT GUERRIER?
He had Matt Guerrier listed asa prospect...isnt he 28 now?

by nms on Dec 18, 2005 1:39 AM EST   0 recs

I'll actually give some credit
The biggest issue I have with his assessments is that he seems to have a lot of inconsistency with his projections. If Felix is going to win 2-3 Cy Youngs during his career according to this guy, shouldn't he be at the top of the list?

That being said, I appreciate the fact that he's willing to step out from the opinions of others. It can be all too easy to live by the word of BA or even of John, but I think a lot of the fun of prospect analysis is in being honest. If you don't think a guy will make it, then explain why. If you think somebody will be a star, give it a shot and don't care what somebody else thinks. At one point few people thought Roy Oswalt was a serious prospect for pro ball, but he made it big despite the judgements of people who do this sort of thing for a living!

I could write up a list and be like "Delmon, Brandon Wood, Hermida, they rule!" And if I really believe that they're the best, that's one thing. But if I put them as 1-3 because I'm afraid that people won't take my list seriously otherwise, I really don't see the point of making a list at all.

by mrkupe on Dec 18, 2005 3:07 AM EST   0 recs

Good points, mrkupe!
Hello everyone,

mrkupe - I agree with you that part of the fun of creating a prospect list is being a little imaginative and creative, with good evidence and analysis to back it up.

However, I don't think this guy did it well enough with his list to justify it, in my opinion.  Too many inconsistent rankings and not enough solid analysis and opinion to back them up.  Just my 2 cents on that. :-)

templeUsox - thanks for bringing that up - I meant to do so earlier.  He makes it sound like it's a disappointment if Hernandez ONLY wins 2-3 Cy Youngs.  Who projected 7 for Felix?  I think Randy Johnson only has 5 or 6.  If Felix only gets 2-3, that's not shabby at all.  Pedro has what - 3-4?  I mean, ranking Felix only #10 because he is only projected to win 2-3 Cy Youngs seems a little ludicrous if you ask me.  :-)

z4 landshark - We'll make sure we don't rip him too much! LOL! :-)

Take care and have a good Sunday!

by indiansfan on Dec 18, 2005 3:24 AM EST   0 recs

ditto indiansfan...
Pence isn't a great top-5 pick, but I think a guy who belts 84 xbh in 652 minor league AB without striking out like Rob Deer has at least an outside chance to harness that power and become a superstar.  Him being 3rd is similarly defensible to Brian Dopirak being named BA's top Cub prospect last year in a system loaded with pitching talent.

It is funny how looking at a couple numbers can really bias a ranking.  For example, last year I was convinced that Hernan Iribarren was going to be a monster high-average hitter based on a scant few low level at bats.  Same with Jeremy Reed on a more advanced level.  I'm aware that part of that is my bias toward that sort of hitter.  Then again, I also rated Dustin Pedroia higher than every list I saw also, and that looks prophetic now.  

I agree that having "unique" ratings is fun, and respect this company's willingness to post theirs.  If they had stones (and the humility to want to improve their future assessments), they would list their prior ratings with comments, like John does here. :>

Finally, WRT the Felix rating... I don't agree with it, either.  But it's clear that he rates pitchers a lot lower using his system.  In the comments, he points out that he essentially rates Felix in a 3-way tie for best pitching prospect.  I don't know if that's because of expected durability issues or not - he's not clear, and I didn't read this list last year.  I don't know that I disagree with his last comment about whether Duke or Felix will have the best career when done - I'm assuming his point is rather like asking whether Glavine or Gooden had the better career.  With one, you have a guy who's upper 10 percentile every year for a looong time, with the other, you have 2 or 3 CY awards, and not much else.

by BobbyMac on Dec 18, 2005 4:09 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

100 list
I have used this site for about a year now and i understand your shock and confusion at the prospect lists that the writer posts. However, i have been pleasantly suprised at his forsight. He does not give top prospects the respect the deserve which is obvious but he is AMAZING about putting you onto sleepers that have great potential that are not on peoples radars because of their lack of hype. He ranked baker top al pitcher last year when i didnt even know who he was and i believe most people are in the same boat. Yet, i was convinced enough to trade for him for cheap and now am very excited about his future.He ranked Duke 2nd in the NL last year and look at the year he had, and im sure no one else would have had him as the 2nd best pitching prospect in the NL. He also had Wang listed as the 7th best pitching prospect in the AL and Wang was not on anyones radar's last year, and now every team would love to have him. I also know that this writer bases his "forcasts" completely on a statistical scoring system that he created. So none of his predictions are using the traditional scouting method ala Baseball America, where future potential and "tools" are factored in, which i personally disagree with. Yet he does provide a good point of view, and while i dont agree with the list in its entirety i would say use it as a tool to evaluate players that may not be Top billing players but could slip through and become good major leaguers like Pujols (no one expected anything like this from him when he was in the minors), Chacin from Tor., and even Lowry from San Fran. So give the guy a chance, you may be suprised. Thanks for reading, and Happy Holidays
I know WAY too much for my own good. Ghead pick my brain!

by AZPhillyHybrid on Dec 18, 2005 4:32 AM EST   0 recs

disgraceful is way too strong
TO address a couple of the points made already:

*I don't see what is so disgraceful about it.  He put himself out on a limb with some choices that he knew would be unpopular.  I think that is pretty cool.
*He doesn't provide analysis on each player.  But there is plenty of analysis throughout the season.  
*It is not a prospect site.  It is a fantasy site.  Most of the energy is spent on projecting this season's stats.
*The system that he is using to rank the prospects is brand new this year.  I am sure there will be tweaks as he learns from it.
*He highly rated Jason Kubel a year before anybody else mentioned him.  Jesse Foppert was lowly ranked when everybody else had him highly ranked.  Would everybody be happier if he just averaged the existing rankings to arrive at his list?  That would be helpful.

by doubledribble on Dec 18, 2005 8:25 AM EST   0 recs

disgraceful might be the right word
Abe Alvarez ahead of Chad Billingsley?

Explanations would be nice. Otherwise, it's hard to take it seriously.

by FI on Dec 18, 2005 10:16 AM EST   0 recs

how bout
howie kendrick not on the list?  if it's statistical analysis, how would he not be on the list when all he does is lead leagues in hitting

by SoCalSoxFan on Dec 18, 2005 1:55 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

pence
I wouldn't call them idiots.  But the Pence pick shows me the relative usefulness of their list.  Pence shredded three A-ball leagues, two of them really low, as a college-tested 21/22-year-old.  Putting a guy like that ahead of, say, Billy Butler doesn't make any sense to me.

by whichthat on Dec 18, 2005 11:55 AM EST   0 recs

re
Lists like that, clearly done by an ametur at best, give new appreciation to work of those who know what they're doing, like Sickels etc.

by captoats85 on Dec 18, 2005 12:30 PM EST   0 recs

I don't like his list
but I understand his thought process. A lot of it is based on gut feel.

He places Scott Baker over Felix, because he may feel Felix will blow out his arm were Baker will be a Brad Radke/Mike Mussina type career - never winning a Cy, but having a solid career.

He goes by gut feel a lot. I wish he would explain his specific feelings more.

 

by SLK on Dec 18, 2005 1:24 PM EST   0 recs

lists
I disagree with much of the list (especially with the players over age 25), but it made me take a second look at some pitchers and hitters. In that sense, it was educational.

It's impossible to make an accurate top 100 list because of injuries, opportunity and the mysteries of player development. The lists really are for entertainment purposes only.

I make a list each winter and I certainly wouldn't bet that the player ranked 14th will have a better career than the one ranked 78th. There's little separating them, and it's all so unpredictable.

by bolton on Dec 18, 2005 2:34 PM EST   0 recs

re: lists
yes, but this guy charges $30 for his stuff... so I think that opens him up to more scrutiny than a your average blogger.
starring Alfonso Soriano as Vinny C in RFK part deux

by natsfan2005 on Dec 18, 2005 2:53 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

didn't know that
If anyone here paid $30 for that list, please listen up: Bolton's list is available for the low, low price of $3. It will definitely help you win your roto league and it might just solve world hunger.

by bolton on Dec 18, 2005 3:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Lastings Milledge
Is it me or is he not on the list?  (44. Bob Keppel!?)

by AdRoK on Dec 18, 2005 3:29 PM EST   0 recs

actually its free
Well, actually this top 100 list is posted on the baseballnotebook website for free.  He does a detailed analysis with discussion in the form of an e-book which costs around $20.  Can hardly blame him for not overwhelming us with explanation in the free product and encouraging us to buy his analysis.  Not that I can make any sense of the exclusion of Howie kendrick.

by BERSMR on Dec 18, 2005 7:26 PM EST   0 recs

disgraceful..
is when you kick your dog..

this list is somebody's opinion based on their way of analyzing...obviously, in this case, ability to discern strikes, ie, obp, rather than being a major, is an extreme indicator.

while kendrick is a guy who makes proliferous contact with some power, not being particularly athletic and having obp problem, can see, not necessariy agree, with reason for downgrade.  

by dryice on Dec 23, 2005 10:40 AM EST   0 recs

his lists are helpful
its all how you use it... he turns you onto sleepers.. if you know how to draft currectly, you can make out like a bandit... just draft all the BA top picks first, then get his sleepers later.. last year i got Duke late in a draft, Wang and Baker were free on the FA wire in my keeper leagues... watch out for Pence + Herrera.. there are some others like Jair Jurrjens (teenager in tigers system, poised for a breakout) .. Casey Janssen is another... he gives some good guys to keep an eye on, and does it better then any other list in my oppinion...

by ufo on Jan 7, 2006 5:59 AM EST   0 recs

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