You're the GM! Tigers Edition

by John Sickels on Nov 19, 2005 3:04 PM EST in News Comment 32 comments

Three Varieties of Tiger

You're the GM! Detroit Tigers Edition

In order to keep the Tigers burning bright in the forest of the night, will it take an immortal hand or eye? Surely something must be done to make the symmetry of this team more fearful, at least to the opponents and not the Detroit fans.

So, does it take a deity, or just a skilled GM?

Who are your core players? Which youngsters, if any, are you willing to make a long-term commitment to? How quickly can you challenge the White Sox, Indians, and Twins?

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Tigers

I wouldnt consider anyone on the MLB roster as untouchable. The ones to keep are the kids - Granderson, Zumaya, Verlander,

Guys like Polanco, Inge, Shelton, Bonderman & Monroe should probably be kept due to performance and lower salaries.

Pudge seems to have changed his mind about Det and wants out now. I'd trade him if possible, preferably for pitching. The Mets seem to have the money to sign anyone so maybe send Pudge to the Mets for Petit/?

Their current lineup isnt that bad. With Ordonez and Guillen playing all year and the above mentioned guys, they could compete. But they need pitching. Get rid of Young's salary for a pitching prospect as well if possible.

Blue Jays - '92, '93

by SharpeShooter on Nov 19, 2005 4:42 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Pudge for Petit?

Isn't getting rid of Pudge's salary reward enough?

by Sulla on Nov 19, 2005 4:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps

Bannister, doubtful they would give up Petit. Any team that deals with Det for Pudge knows that they are desperate.

by akk99 on Nov 20, 2005 6:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

isn't the current rumor ...

Pudge for Kaz Matsui?

3Rivers, United League of Moderate Gamers | Writer, Minor Details | Writer, Independent Thinking

by rockies73 on Nov 21, 2005 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My Tigers moves for '06

The Tigers made some advances in 2005 and should continue in '06 as long as they get rid of some of the dead wood and continue their youth movement. By dead wood I mean Troy Percival, Carlos Pena and (to a lesser extent) Irod. If the Tigers can pick up a legitimate major league Third Baseman and Closer along with one Starter in the off season, either through free agent moves or by trading any or all of the afore mentioned players, they should be in pretty good shape to contend for a wild card berth. The trading of Irod (maybe to the Angels for Dallas McPherson and Jeff Mathis?)would A) open up the catchers spot for Brandon Inge and B)continue the process of getting younger and cheaper with quality players. Chris Shelton has proven he's a regular at 1st Base while Polanco and Guillen are solid, if not spectacular in the middle. The outfield is young, fast and talented with Logan, Granderson, Monroe, Thames and the fully recovered Magglio Ordonez. Throw in Young as the DH along with super-subs Infante, Wilson and Giarratano and you've got the makings of a solid contender.
Then you get to the shining jewel of the team...that incredibly talented and young pitching staff. Bonderman, Maroth and Robertson are more than capable, and still improving in their mid-20's. The future aces of the team Justin Verlander and Joel Zumaya are both on the 40 man roster and could possibly make the team in the spring...however, I think another couple of months at AAA would be of benefit to both pitchers. Imagine these 2 flame-throwers along side Bonderman in 2007! Add a reasonable 4th starter (along the lines of a Jarrod Washburn) and you're set. As for the closer's spot...perhaps Tampa Bay, in need of a first baseman with power and also some pitching help, would trade Danys Baez for Pena and Ramon Colon. That should put the Tigers right in the thick of it.

Here's my 2006 Lineup with the changes mentioned:

2B - Polanco
SS - Guillen
1B - Shelton
RF - Ordonez
DH - Young
3B - McPherson
LF - Logan/Monroe
CF - Granderson
C - Inge/Mathis

Rotation

- Bonderman
- Washburn
- Maroth
- Robertson
- Lewis/Grilli (holding this spot till June, for Verlander and/or Zumaya)

Setup - Rodney
Closer - Baez

This is a team that could contend in '06 but really is built for '07 - when those young pitchers and outfielders get a bit more seasoning. What do you think?

"...look for low and away...but watch out for in your ear."

by mark21 on Nov 19, 2005 4:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I believe you've become delirious

The Rays, at least not these Hunsicker-led ones, would not trade Baez for scrubs like Colon and Pena.

by The Rocc on Nov 20, 2005 1:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

can I get some ...

of that peace pipe you're smoking?

Inge - Is not your run of the mill third baseman, but his career batting average drops 50 points (to .210) when you move him behind the plate.

No way the Angels give up McPherson and Mathis for Pudge, without Ilich picking up most of Pudge's salary and even then I don't see it. The Tigers don't have the MiLB depth to make this move realistic. The best the Tigers can hope for is a AA prospect or an average regular that is also overpaid (Mets' Matsui is the rumor I've been reading).

Pena will be traded, but is in a similar situation as Pudge, as it pretty much known that he'll be non-tendered.

3Rivers, United League of Moderate Gamers | Writer, Minor Details | Writer, Independent Thinking

by rockies73 on Nov 21, 2005 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Inge's actual numbers

From CBS Sportline:

as Third Baseman: .276 (826 at bats)
as Outfielder: .260 (73)
as Catcher: .203 (962)

3Rivers, United League of Moderate Gamers | Writer, Minor Details | Writer, Independent Thinking

by rockies73 on Nov 21, 2005 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Inge splits

Most of Inge's behind-the-plate experience came before his offensive breakthrough in 2002/2003. I think it's a matter of when the numbers as opposed to what position he was playing.

by limozeen on Nov 22, 2005 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Edit

Offensive breakthough was in 2004, but his horrible stats came in 2002/2003.

by limozeen on Nov 22, 2005 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Inge

I'm not worried about his splits as broken down by defensive position, but I am about his splits vs. lhp/rhp.

2004
vs. LHP: .327/.386/.530
vs. RHP: .258/.308/.400

2005
vs. LHP: .281/.382/.461
vs. RHP: .256/.315/.408

So in sum, Inge has gone from a hitter who couldn't hit anybody to a hitter that can hit lefties well. He still can't hit righties. I don't think it really has anything to do with his defensive position.

by tbac on Nov 22, 2005 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Trading Pudge for McPherson/Mathis

Um, there is no way the Angels would trade Jeff Mathis and Dallas McPherson for Pudge. The whole point of letting go Bengie Molina to free agency is to turn over the catching job to the top prospect Mathis, who will be at minimal salary until arbitration and far cheaper than Pudge, who is in his declining years. If the Angels wanted a declining catcher, they would have kept Molina who would have been cheaper than Pudge.

And there's no way they throw in McPherson for good measure. Dallas' problem was he had a bone spur on his hip, which apparently has been the cause of his lower back problem for three years. It was shaved down in September, and he should be ready to go for spring training 2006. He's going to be a major part of the Angels' offense; trading him opens a hole that can't be filled.

by FutureAngels on Nov 19, 2005 5:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

You're probably right!

You may be right about the Angels not trading both youngsters but I read a report that said McPherson has fallen out of favor with the Angels heirarchy due to constant injuries and failed promise. I also read where Mathis is not quite as good a prospect as they thought he would be a couple of years ago. However, I do agree that asking for both prospects may be reaching. One or the other, though, might be a possibility.

"...look for low and away...but watch out for in your ear."

by mark21 on Nov 19, 2005 5:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Like I mentioned above

Isn't getting rid of Pudge's salary reward enough?

by Sulla on Nov 19, 2005 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes...

Yes, to get rid of an aging $7 million Pudge is good enough...the Tigers wouldn't get too much in return for him, just more cap room

Sabean, stop giving away our 1st round draft picks!!

by z4 landshark on Nov 19, 2005 8:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Worse than that

Pudge is going to make $25M (includes a $3M buyout) over the next two years.

by Sulla on Nov 20, 2005 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

McPherson "Out of Favor"

Mark21, care to cite a reliable source quoting someone actually with the Angels saying he's "fallen out of favor"? It's simply not true. And as for the "constant injuries," that's not true either. He had a lower back injury in spring training 2003 which at the time was thought to be a bulging disc. He was a couple weeks late reporting to Class-A Rancho Cucamonga in April 2003; after that, he's played every day until a recurrence of the back injury in spring training 2005. He began the season in April at Triple-A Salt Lake as a quasi-rehab, then went to Anaheim where he played until the back flared up again.

Now that they know what was the real problem -- the bone spur on his hip -- the mysterious injury has been explained. He had to see two hip specialists to find this, so my guess is it's a rather weird injury. In any case, unless you can cite someone with the Angels saying he's out of favor, dismiss it as someone's idle gossip.

The same with Mathis. He's all of 22 years old and just had quite a nice year in Triple-A. I laugh at the random reports I see dismissing him just because he didn't have a monster year in Triple-A at age 22. If you look at my recently written Top 10 Angels Prospects report:

http://www.futureangels.com/columns/homeplate/0511_1.html

... the only catcher in the PCL with comparable offensive numbers was 28-year old Royce Huffman with Round Rock. Show me another 22-year old catcher in Triple-A who had numbers comparable to Mathis.

The Angels just let go Bengie Molina because they believe highly in Mathis. Mike Scioscia of all people knows a star catcher when he sees one. They wouldn't let Molina go unless they thought Mathis could replace him.

by FutureAngels on Nov 19, 2005 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pudge is nearly untradeable

I don't think Pudge should fetch anything useful in a trade at this point. It appears he's entered his decline phase and, unfortunately, it'll probably be pretty steep. Add to this his huge salary and I don't think you'd get either Mathis or McPherson alone for him. This doesn't the Tiggers won't be able to dupe someone this winter, but I think it's highly unlikely (if only they could trade with themselves -- taking on big $ with an aging body is classic Motown).

by tycobb420 on Nov 20, 2005 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

you and Charon

are absolutely correct. It's not that the 160 lb Pudge isn't still talented, but if teams know that the Tigers are desperate, they aren't going to offer anything for him. It's amusing reading some of the trade proposals in this Diary (Why not a four way deal with the Mets, Angels and Braves...Mets get Pudge, Braves get Heilman, Angles get Chipper Jones, and the Tigers get Marte, Milledge, and Ervin Santana LOL).

Desperation + huge salary + rapid weightloss + over 32 for a catcher = bad news.

by akk99 on Nov 20, 2005 6:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Off the top of my head

I build around...
Bonderman, Zumaya, Verlander, Maybin, Shelton, and Monroe. Younger players like Granderson and Giarratano look like valuable pieces to the puzzle but aren't in my upper tier of talent.

My next step would be to get out of bed wiht Boras and stop overpaying his high $ free agents (see Ordonez and Irod). After the 119 loss season signings like these were necessary to save face and regain trust with the fan base but the damage has to end here.

Create decisions have to be made in order to find players who can contribute now and either make injury prone declinig vets expendable or at the very least providing viable replacements for them when they go in the tank. Players such as Macier Izturis (blocked and down on the long depth chart with the Angels), Sean Burroughs/Corey Patterson (stagnant w/ current team), or disciplinary problems such as Milton Bradley. These players could possibly be available at below market value due to organizational circumsatnces and can be useful parts. This will also allows you to stay out of the FA market where they have been exploited recently and allows them to keep their draft picks.

Overall depth is the main issue. A house cleaning isn't in order but moving players to improve depth will allow Detroit to compete in the Central when their injury problems become an issue again.

by riktermiller on Nov 19, 2005 6:26 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Tigers GM

DO:
Trade D. Young for some pitching or
sign a front line pitcher like Washburn or Morris.
Bring Farnsworth back. Crowd favorite can dominate. If not a guy like Howry might do fine.
Trade for M. Bradley or do something to sure up CF. Granderson and Logan are not the answer.
DO NOT:
Trade Pudge, he will be better next year, for those of us that have been thru a divorce it takes it's toll and it was obviously the case with Pudge.
Burn out Verlander or Zumaya. Zumaya is probably more ready for the bigs, one should make the rotation and one should be in AAA.
Trade Pena, nothing to back this up other than it's a hunch.
LINEUP
2B Polanco
CF Bradley
SS Guillen
RF Ordonez
DH Shelton
1B Pena
C Rodriguez
LF Monroe/Thames
3B Inge

SP
Bonderman
Washburn
Maroth
Zumaya
Robertson

by tancook on Nov 19, 2005 6:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

huffman

Royce Huffmans catching now? From 2nd to 3rd to 1st to C..werid

by nms on Nov 20, 2005 1:17 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Huffman the Catcher

Argh, you're right ... I was going off a feature on MiLB.com where you can sort league stats by position. Huffman was listed as a catcher. But then I checked another source which lists game-by-game results and found that he caught only three games for Round Rock. Most of the time, he was a DH, 3B, 1B or 2B. Obviously someone at MLB Advanced Media coded Huffman as a catcher.

They did the same thing to the Angels' Mark Trumbo, listing him as a 3B, even though he didn't play a single game at the position.

That's just more fuel for the argument that Mathis had a pretty good year offensively in comparison to other PCL catchers, especially if Huffman wasn't really a catcher.

by FutureAngels on Nov 20, 2005 8:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Percival???

What's the word on him?

by geosrhen on Nov 20, 2005 1:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

What to do

If I were GM of the Tigers today, my first priority would be trying to unload Magglio Ordonez. Probably impossible, but perhaps a team with another terrible contract would be willing to do a deal. The Rockies are on the hook for a gazillion dollar contract in Todd Helton (106.7 million) through 2011. Maybe Magglio and some prospects would bring him and his monstrosity of a contract to the Tigers. Maybe the Yankees would be interested as well, as they have plenty of bad contracts that they'd like to unload. Pavano for example.

Pudge to Mets would make a lot of sense. I'd ask for Heilman and Heath Bell. Or deal him and cash to the Nationals for Brad Wilkerson and Brian Schneider.

I'd be after Javier Vazquez aggressively. Not sure what the D'Backs are looking for though.

What's the word on Percival? He has nothing left.

by tbac on Nov 20, 2005 1:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

tigers gm

this is one tough team, lousy contracts, average farm system, a division that will only get tougher over the next couple of years.

First: I think you're stuck with Mags, IRod and Percival, nobody is gonna take on those contracts unless you throw silly money in them, which would negate the point.

Second: Don't sign any big name FA, Burnett is tempting, but with bonderman, verlander and Zumaya are hard throwing front line starters a big need? especially if his contract is gonna hold everything else hostage.

Thrid: Sign low money deals to fill in the spots, concentrating more on obp and a little speed on offense, that park is not very HR friendly, and you've got 2 decent HR hitters in Maggs and Shelton. For pitchers, sign guys who keep the ball in the infield, because that OF defense doesn't look too good, Loaiza would be a decent pick up in that park if he didn't have to face AL hitters...so much for that.

Fourth: Trade Pena and Young for whatever you can and get a risky DH type, Pickering, Petagine, maybe even Thomas, there'll be plenty of big slow guys who can't play defense but will come cheap.

Basically, 2006 should be a year to build for the future, 2008-9 should be what they target when Bonderman, Verlander and Zumaya should form a very good rotation, and Maybin and Granderson should be covering plenty of ground in the OF with Shelton doing his thing as well, by that time, they'd have enough money to supplant the rest of the team with quality FA and build the farm system to a better level. The Twins, White sox and Indians will all be better next year, and that's just for the division, never mind the wild card. I'm not saying blow everything up, just don't fool yourself into thinking that you're a contender.

by jspearlj1 on Nov 20, 2005 2:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

a couple of questions for tigers fans...

am i wrong in assuming that verlander is gonna start the year in the rotation? i thought he proved he could handle it down the stretch last year from his couple of good spot starts and his sheer dominance at every level of the minors...
at what point is zumaya gonna be up? will he be the one who starts the year in the rotation instead of verlander because i thought he still needed a little bit more time to develop from what i saw...and please tell me the whispers to change him into a closer have been quieted

by robcast23 on Nov 20, 2005 5:29 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Robcast23

Dombrowski has stated that the Tigers' priorities this offseason are a starting pitcher and a closer. Even if the Tigers sign or trade for a starter, the fifth spot will remain open. Thus I would expect that the 5th slot would go to Verlander or Zumaya, or even someone like Kenny Baugh.

I expect the Tigers will dabble in the Millwood/Loaiza/Weaver markets, and also make a strong push to trade for Javier Vazquez or Carl Pavano.

Nate Robertson has shown to be a very good pitcher pre-All Star break, but he has turned into a pumpkin after the fall classic in 2004 and again 2005. So I expect both Zumaya and Verlander to be up with the big club by midseason 2006. The Tigers would probably go with Verlander over Zumaya initially, probably because Verlander is already signed to a major league contract, while Zumaya is not. So I would guess that service time/arbitration considerations as well as his better command would give the nod to Verlander.

Zumaya still continues to walk guys at a Nolan Ryanesque pace, but whiffs a ton of guys and keeps his hit and HR rates way down. The Tigers are looking for him to be more economical with his pitches as he tends to throw a lot of them to get his outs. He's usually approaching 100 pitches by the 5th or 6th inning. The walks and the efficiency concerns is what fuels the closer speculation, but he continues to make incremental improvements in this regard. I for one would be very dissapointed if the Tigers converted him at this point, but they have stuck with him as a starter in some rough spots in 2004.

by tbac on Nov 20, 2005 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

good answer

thanks for the info

by robcast23 on Nov 20, 2005 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Which youngsters...long-term commitment to

Other than Bonderman, there really aren't any yet though after another year, Granderson and Shelton might be part of the core. Shelton is just a pure hitter with the only remaining questions about his defense and whether he'll hit for enough power as a 1B/DH at the ML level. Jeff Larish is one guy to watch as he may move through the system quickly. It will be interesting to see how Brent Clevlen adjusts to AA...he's their best hope for an impact position player outside of Maybin.

To recover, what the Tigers need to do is either draft or develop better. It's hard to say which has been worse. Recently they have been targeting power arms and it appears the payoff may be near. Meanwhile, they need to use their ballpark as an advantage in acquiring some quality #3 and #4 starters who can buy some more development time for Zoom and Zoolander.

In previous posts, there has been some criticism of the Ordonez and Pudge contracts, but the Tigers have been more innovative than most teams in structuring contracts to avoid payouts to FAs who sustain major injury. The ballpark configuration is a tough sell for quality FA hitters.

Finally, one rant. No way in heck is Jeff Weaver going to wear the old English D again.

by woody on Nov 20, 2005 8:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

contracts

It's true, the Tigers contracts have some injury clauses built in The problem is, the Maggs contract had a "knee clause" only for the 2005 season, which didn't give them an out after he came down with a hernia. The contract doesn't have any more out clauses for any injuries moving forward. It also doesn't have any out clauses when Maggs becomes a league average right fielder in 1-2 years making 15 million dollars a year.

Granted, the Pudge contract provides back injury protection for 2006 and 2007, which is good.

I do agree with you Woody on Larish. I thought he was a steal in the 5th round, and I think he could be the next Jason Giambi with a better glove.

I would like to see Weave back in the D, but you're probably right, the Tigers probably burnt their bridges with him beyond repair.

by tbac on Nov 20, 2005 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

not ready to contend

Since I don't think the Tigers will be ready to contend for a couple of years, I think they should build around youth. They pretty much have no choice since Detroit is not a favorite destination of free agents. The Most important pieces on the current roster are Bonderman, Shelton and Granderson. On the way up are Verlander, Zumaya, Clevlen, Tata, Maybin and others. The worst mistake they could make would be to trade any of the top young players in a desperate attempt to contend next year. The exception would be if they got a proven young player in return which is not likely.

Just because I don't see them as contenders yet does not mean I think they should dump salaries though. If they could get good prospects for Rodriguez and Ordonez, I'd be all for it but since they probably can't, they are better off keeping them. I don't think the money saved by dumping their salaries (without getting good players in return) would be worth the public relations disaster and decline in attendance that would likely result.

Since they are not a small market team that needs to operate quite as rigidly as the Athletics or Twins, I think they can continue to try to put together the best team possible for next year. They key is not to trade away the future or take on anymore Ordonezesque contracts. I'd like to at least see them acquire a starting pitcher and a couple of relievers (no 4 or 5 year deals though). They also need another left-handed bat but I'm not sure how much they can get without giving up the farm.

Lee
www.detroittigertales.blogspot.com

by tiger337 on Nov 21, 2005 12:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs