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Brandon McCarthy vs. Scott Baker


Prospect Smackdown: Brandon McCarthy vs. Scott Baker

Two American League Central pitchers who should be dueling each other for the next few years.

BACKGROUND and INTANGIBLES
McCarthy: Brandon McCarthy was a 17th round draft pick in 2002, out of Lamar Community College in Colorado. He pitched well in junior college, but was something of an unsung player, not well scouted by most teams even though he dominated JC competition. He emerged as a successful professional pitcher very quickly, especially in 2003 when he posted a 125/15 K/BB ratio in 101 innings in the Pioneer League. Scouts praise his work ethic and emotional presence on the mound.
Baker: Scott Baker was a 2nd round draft pick in 2003, out of Oklahoma State University. He was a decent starter for OSU in '01 and '02, then emerged with a strong '03 season that established him as one of the better college pitchers available in the draft. Like McCarthy, he adjusted quickly to pro competition, and draws praise for his work ethic and feel for the game.
Advantage: Baker had a higher profile as an amateur and faced better competition, but both pitchers draw praise for their intellect, confidence, and feel for the game. Overall, I rate this as a draw.

PHYSICALITY and TOOLS
McCarthy: McCarthy is 22 years old, listed at 6-7, 180 pounds. He is quite tall and lanky, but unlike many tall pitchers, his mechanics are clean and relatively consistent, which helps him maintain good control. His fastball comes in at 90-93 MPH, depending on his grip. He also has a good curveball and changeup, although he will go through phases when he doesn't use the changeup enough. He kept the ball down well in previous seasons, but pitched up in the strike zone more often in '05, resulting in more home runs than in the past. He has been durable so far, without any serious health concerns.
Baker: Baker is 24 years old, listed at 6-4, 215 pounds. He has more of a classic pitcher's build than McCarthy, although like McCarthy his mechanics are clean and consistent, part of the reason he has good command. His fastball works comfortably at 90-93 MPH, though he can hit 94-95 when he needs additional oomph. He also has an above-average changeup, as well as two breaking balls, a slider and a curve. Although Baker has been healthy as a pro, he had a bout of elbow trouble in college. Surgery was avoided, but Baker will sometimes lose velocity and life on his pitches when tired.
Advantage: This is a matter of taste. McCarthy is younger, but Baker has a more classic pitcher's body and fewer potential mechanical breakdown points. On the other hand, Baker also has a history of minor injuries. They have similar velocity and arm strength. Baker is probably a bit more polished, but that is balanced out by the age difference. Another draw all things considered.

PERFORMANCE
McCarthy: McCarthy posted strong K/IP and K/BB ratios in the minor leagues. In 471 career minor league innings, he posted a 3.38 ERA and a 536/92 K/BB, 1.09 WHIP. In the majors, he went 3-2, 4.03 in 67 innings, with a 48/17 K/BB. K/9 was 6.45 vs. 2.28 BB/9., 1.18 WHIP.
Baker: Baker posted strong K/IP and K/BB ratios in the minor leagues. In 355 career innings in the minors, Baker posted a 3.04 ERA and a 299/68 K/BB in 355 innings, 1.08 WHIP. In the majors, he went 3-3, 3.35 in 54 innings, with a 32/14 K/BB, 5.37 K/9, 2.35 BB/9, 1.16 WHIP.
Advantage. Again, very similar. McCarthy has a superior strikeout rate in both the majors and the minors, but Baker has a slightly better overall WHIP and ERA. Nevertheless, I think McCarthy has a very slight advantage here due to the strikeouts. It's so close you can make a case either way.

PROJECTION
McCarthy: Because of his size and youth, McCarthy may pick up additional velocity as he fills out his body. His command and control are already excellent given his age. He needs to use the changeup more often, but has shown the willingness to learn.
Baker: Baker has less physical projection left than McCarthy, being older and shorter. He probably won't pick up additional velocity. On the other hand, he also has fewer things to learn about pitching.
Advantage: Once again, it's very close, but I think McCarthy has more room to improve if only because he is younger.

OVERALL
McCarthy has very slight advantages in performance and projectability, although different analysts could come to different conclusions. Background, intangibles, and physicality/tools are all even in my view, the strengths of each pitcher balancing themselves out.
Overall, I think McCarthy comes out a hair ahead, due to being younger and having a higher strikeout rate.

Poll question in the comments thread.

Poll
Who will have a better/longer career?
Brandon McCarthy
120 votes
Scott Baker
78 votes

198 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 33 comments

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Comments

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agree with Sickles
McCarthy's K-rate is much higher than Baker's.  The problem with McCarthy is the long ball, and this was not a problem that emerged this year, it was there last season too.  I think this keeps him from pulling away from Baker as far as prospect status goes... Both of them will be good ones so long as they stay healthy/ stay emotionally controlled as big league pitchers.

by huuuubaah on Nov 15, 2005 4:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

McCarthy
when he came up during his 2nd callup this year, he was throwing his change up.  That was the big difference between McCarthy early on and him later on this season.

by shaftr on Nov 15, 2005 4:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thoughts
Biggest problem for McCarthy is the home run rate, which I think is a byproduct of his rapid rise. Once he gets more experience at the major league level, I think the home run rate will drop to managable levels.

A very promising sign is that the White Sox pitching staff features multiple guys who have developed some tremendous changeups. If McCarthy follows the trend, I think he's got the pure stuff to be a major league ace type pitcher.

Baker looks like a pretty solid pitcher and I wouldn't complain about having him on my staff, though.

by mrkupe on Nov 15, 2005 5:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Tyler Clippard
John, do you see any similarities, as I do, between Clippard and McCarthy as prospects?
...NJASDJDH...

by Fabian on Nov 15, 2005 6:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

the smackdown
i really like this whole "prospect smackdown" idea.  I think it really gives us perspective.  Id like to see delmon young v. jeremy hermida, or chad billingsley v. matt cain.

by sanchez101 on Nov 15, 2005 6:54 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i second that
and if you are reading this jon, maybe some dodger CB's and stuff. not enough dodger prospect stuff! :)

by npurcell on Nov 15, 2005 7:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Baker
he doesn't seem to get rattled easily, and might have the best poise out of all young pitchers right now .. he can also be dominant at times, so the lower strikeout rate doesn't bother me much.. so i vote Baker .. i think McCarthy has higher upside and has a better chance at a cy young season or two, but i can also seeing him going through up and down struggles ala Millwood or to a higher extent Halladay.. but Baker looks perfect for the old Maddux analogy and could have a better career .. i think he's the safer pick

by ufo on Nov 15, 2005 7:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i assume
you mean a better career than mccarthy, not maddux
"Well I believe in the soul..."

by D O on Nov 16, 2005 5:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

FWIW
FWIW, Maddux is a ground ball pitcher. This is where the Grienke is Maddux-esque thing fell apart too. To be like Maddux you need both the parts of the combo - uber control and heavy ground ball tendencies... even then comping to a guy with that many CYs is a bit of a foolish proposition.

Not sure why people never make comps to Freddy Garcia or Javier Vazquez types. It's always Pedro, Maddux, Glavine, etc...

"If you don't like Torey Lovullo, then you don't like baseball." Sparky Anderson

by natsfan2005 on Nov 16, 2005 6:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

about maddux comp
just wanna explain myself..  i wasn't thinking groundball pitcher at all.. i was thinking of Baker's presence on the mound, his excellent use of the pitches he throws, the way he responds when runners are on base, and the way he goes after hitters.. to me, its very maddux-like the way he gets OUTS.. methological..  not like like vazquez or garcia at all.. if you actually watch Baker pitch a game, you can pick up things that you can't find on stat sheets..  

i dont know many successful pitchers who are low on K's, so maddux and glavine's names are easy to use sometimes just to make a point... and yea, i meant he could have a better career then McCarthy

by ufo on Nov 17, 2005 6:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and
Not sure why people never make comps to Freddy Garcia or Javier Vazquez types. It's always Pedro, Maddux, Glavine, etc...

...don't forget Jamie Moyer!

by FI on Nov 17, 2005 8:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

..and
kenny rogers! ... biatch

by ufo on Nov 18, 2005 2:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

another thing
they are both fly ball pitchers, with baker having a .6 G/F ratio in AAA.  Given their ball parks, this could be more problematic for McCarthy.

by vaclipper on Nov 15, 2005 8:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Great stuff/analysis John
I LOVE this kind of thing and I can probably think of 20 comps I'd like your thoughts on.

Ramirez-Wood
Diamond-Adam Miller
Young-Milledge which you did last week
Barton-McCann
etal to name a few.

I won't get married until the Red Sox win the World Series. AGAIN!!

by Shep on Nov 15, 2005 9:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

re: Barton-McCann
Barton is not gonna be a full-time catcher no matter how much wishcasting anyone does. I'm not saying the A's definitely won't give it a try but it would be a failed experiment. Wouldn't last two years...
"If you don't like Torey Lovullo, then you don't like baseball." Sparky Anderson

by natsfan2005 on Nov 15, 2005 10:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

John:
Just out of curiosity, why did you compare the White Sox's best MLB-ready pitching prospect with the Twin's 2nd best MLB-ready pitching prospect.

Is this just because Liriano would blow McCarthy away?

by Justin & Joe on Nov 15, 2005 11:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

ummm...
perhaps because they are comparable pitchers

by kenshin1 on Nov 16, 2005 6:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

liriano
Because Liriano is a lefty and McCarthy is a righty.

by John Sickels on Nov 16, 2005 8:51 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

IMO
Too much is made of the value of left handed pitchers.  Over the course of Major League history, the difference in BA and OPS vs. RH or LH pitching is within a couple tenths of a percentage point.

by HuskerBob on Nov 16, 2005 11:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Subject
Having a good lefty-righty mix means that opposing managers have to turn over their lineups more to get good matchups.  And there are some teams (Cough...Twins..Cough) that can't hit lefties at all.

Overall, it's mostly a wash, but having a dominant lefty is definately an advantage to having an equally dominant righty because it forces opposing managers to play a different game strategically.  Baseball is all about disrupting the opponent's rhythm and strategy.  Since lefties aren't the norm, they're more coveted because they're the best way for one team to disrupt its opponent's lineup.

by limozeen on Nov 17, 2005 1:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

MLB-ready
I don't think he did compare the Twins' 2nd best MLB-ready pitching prospect.  I expect more success for Baker (than Liriano) early on, and that might be two months, a half-season, or two years.

by tmelander on Nov 16, 2005 9:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

well
Scott Baker is there most mlb ready pitcher forsure.

He looks awesome.  I think he'll be a solid #2, or excellent #3.

Liriano obviously has more long term potential then him, liriano has SKY IS THE LIMIT kind of potential.  He can be special, cy young type ability.

I think Baker will be a pitcher with a era in the 3's most every year, I see consistency and a guy you can really rely on.  He pumps that fastball in there  at 94mph with good consistency....he's deceptive.

I really, really like this kid.  His mound poise is off the charts.

by hotshotschamp on Nov 16, 2005 9:25 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

For all you Liriano Lovers...
Its really funny to hear people proclaim Liriano as the next great pitcher when he had one half season of breakout baseball in triple A.  Before this, he was a solid, but not spectacular prospect who spent two and a half seasons in Rookie/A ball.  He also was shelved for much of the 2003 season.  He had a 5.4 ERA in the majors this year too.  How does this "blow McCarthy away"????

    McCarthy dominated minor league ball from DAY 1, breezing through the minors, reaching the majors two seasons quicker than Liriano. His minor league K rate is just as good as Liriano's, he sports a 532/96 k/bb which is better than Liriano's K to bb.  Plus McCarthy has no injury history and had a 4.02 ERA in the majors this year. Let me ask again, how is Liriano a better prospect?  Both have significant upside, but just because one guy had a half season of amazing baseball in triple A doesn't ensure sustained greatness.  I'm not saying McCarthy is going to be significantly better than Liriano, he might be, he might not.  Its just that McCarthy's overall body of work in a shorter time suggests that he has a chance to be the better pitcer.

by huuuubaah on Nov 16, 2005 11:11 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn't it blows him away...
but Liriano has better stuff and doesn't have to overcome the home run bug.

Potentialwise, I think McCarthy is a solid notch below Liriano.

by Sulla on Nov 16, 2005 11:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

hmm
Basing a prospect comp off of a 20-inning cup of coffee for Liriano seems shaky.  You can't ignore that he struck out 33 in 23 2/3 IP, that he held opponents to a .221 BAA and posted a stellar 1.10 WHIP.

Give the kid who most think has the best stuff of any lefty in recent history more than 23 2/3 innings to adjust to pro ball.

And before you start bashing his MLB performance, look past the 5.70 ERA.  He had the highest K/9 in the majors of any rookie with 20+ IP.  His CERA was a magnificent 3.15 (which would have been good for 11th in the MLB behind Beckett and before John Patterson) and his DIPS was 3.34 (again which would have been 11th best in the MLB between Oswalt and Smoltz).

by limozeen on Nov 17, 2005 1:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Scott Baker needs the overhaul, not Jesse Crain.
I saw him pitch against the Royals. For a guy without an impressive fastball he sure likes to challenge hitters up in the zone a lot. I thought that might have been an aberration, but it turns out that he was a fairly extreme flyball pitcher in the minors. Major league hitters are eventually going to start knocking some of those fastballs over the fence.

He needs to put some sink on that fastball and work down in the zone more.

by Sulla on Nov 16, 2005 11:18 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

too late on Crain
and i may be nearly as bitter about it as you.
"If you don't like Torey Lovullo, then you don't like baseball." Sparky Anderson

by natsfan2005 on Nov 16, 2005 11:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Just as bitter...fow now
When Crain has his melt down, the Nats are going to go unaffected.

by Sulla on Nov 16, 2005 11:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

One last response
Im not basing my comparison between Liriano and McCarthy purely on MLB ERAs from 2005.  That is just supplementary evidence.  The crux of my argument that suggests that these two prospects are close, maybe a slight edge to McCarthy  are the following:
-  532/96 k to bb for McCarthy in 474 innings, 551/174 k/bb for Liriano in 484.1 innings.  
 (virtually identical k rate with almost half the walks for McCarthy vs. Liriano)
-  434 Hits allowed for McCarthy in 474 IP
420 hits allowed for Liriano in 484.1 IP (Slight edge goes to Liriano)
-  McCarthy has no injury history
Liriano only threw 9 innings in 2003
  •  McCarthy made it to the majors two seasons quicker than Liriano.
  •  Age is identical so thats not an issue.
McCarthy v. Liriano, nearly identical stats in every catagory except walks where McCarthy has nearly half the walks of Liriano.  Plus McCarthy has no injury history

* NOTE * There is no mention of major league performance, given that these two only really pitched 80 combined innings.

Is Liriano really all that much better than McCarthy??? Not at all... I don't want to hear anymore nonsense about how Liriano "blows McCarthy away" because it is just not true.  If you take away Liriano's half season Triple A performance, then there wouldn't even be a debate.  

by huuuubaah on Nov 17, 2005 4:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

taking away 1/2 seasons...
Before I say this I will state I think McCarthy is under-rated...

But if I'm dismissing a half season of stats I'd rather dismiss A ball stats than AAA stats. McCarthy's 60/3 K/BB is nice in that it shows he's consistently had several years of good control. But including the A-ball numbers in a head-2-head comp of these two really isn't too relevant otherwise. Liriano humiliated AAA. That's outstanding. Many guys humiliate A ball hitters but that just gets them on the radar. AA and AAA performance is what is the test. McCarthy got an A-/B+ on that test, Liriano got an A/A+.

"If you don't like Torey Lovullo, then you don't like baseball." Sparky Anderson

by natsfan2005 on Nov 17, 2005 4:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I like BMac
But you can't argue with the most recent data that all suggest that Liriano, barring injury, is a far superior prospect.

by limozeen on Nov 17, 2005 8:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Context
I like McCarthy but I think Chicago fans are setting themselves up for disappointment.

I really thnk Brandon McCarthy is going to struggle in the near future. The AL Central (especially Chicago) is not a friendly place for a flyball pitcher like McCarthy. If he becomes undervalued and sent packing to a place like San Diego by 2008 and that would be great for his career - he could evolve into a pretty good #2/#3 option in some places (one of the NL West teams, perhaps)

by FI on Nov 17, 2005 8:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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