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Bullet Point

Today's Bullet Points

*I'm wondering if the Dodgers are being too aggressive with Clayton Kershaw? I think I would have left him in the Midwest League for the whole season. I don't see the point in rushing him, and prefer the one-step-at-a-time approach, unless someone has a 1.00 ERA or something.
*I think the US economy will be recognized as being in a recession within three months.

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2 disagreements
*i never understood the 'keep him at one level for the year' preference. the point is to keep a guy challenged and improving. that can be done in any number of ways, it seems to me -- some guys may need a whole year at a level to consolidate and work on things, others not. This is particularly true with a pitcher, in my opinion. Their development is so fragile that I'd just as soon treat them with kid gloves in terms of pitch counts, etc (which the Dodgers do), but also push them upwards as quickly as possible. Why waste their bullets -- see if a guy can handle AA, then AAA and, then, if ready, the pros (per Joba Chamberlain, for example).

*recently read a survey of economists: 1 out of the entire sample (I want to say it was 100 economists, but can't remember) thought we'd be in a recession next year. 0 thought we'd be in a recession in 2 years. I know it's fashionable to say the sky is falling on no evidence whatsoever, but there's no reason to think we're in a recession or soon will be except for willful 'the glass is empty' thinking. Sorry.

by scooter on Aug 15, 2007 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

many times
you see rookies come through the majors and do extremely well in their first run through the league.

The second and third times, when teams have seen them, the pitchers need to adjust.

If you have a pitcher only go through leagues once or twice, certain deficiencies may not be exposed because teams haven't seen them.

Maybe they have a funky delivery that teams will be able to time in later starts.  Maybe they are getting by on a great fastball, but have few other offerings.

I think it makes sense to have pitchers spend much of one season in the same league so they can face the same teams numerous times and see how they, and the other teams, adjust.

by Curtis Pride on Aug 15, 2007 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Laugh
Actually, if you got 100 or a hundred economists to agree on a prediction, I would feel pretty safe betting the other way every single time.

by BlueEyesAustin on Aug 15, 2007 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

On Recession
Actually, you might find it interesting to do some research and see historically how often economists have correctly predicted a recession.  Here's the shortcut: Almost never.

Ergo, every time we were headed into a recession, 99 out of 100 economists said we weren't.

Ergo, ignore them on this particular subject.

by FunWithHeadlines on Aug 15, 2007 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Response
I think Double A was a bit of a reach for Kershaw at this point, but not excessively. His stuff is so good across the board that when he's on, he can handle almost any level of competition. On the other hand, he does need to get more consistent from inning to inning, and I don't think jumping him out of A ball is a good way to let him work on that. If Kershaw's going to be battling himself half the time out there, I sure as hell don't want him doing it against advanced batters who are more capable of jumping on his mistakes. That's no way to help a kid develop a solid pitching approach.

I do think promotion to the Florida State League would've been fine. It's a slight step up and probably wasn't going to be much more of a challenge for Kershaw than the Midwest League, but at least it would've been a more gradual exposure to more advanced batters.

by mrkupe on Aug 15, 2007 11:37 AM EDT reply actions  

+2
I agree with both points presented.
  1.  Kershaw probably was not ready for such a big leap.  I would have much less of an issue with a promotion to A+ ball.  AA is a bit of a stretch for someone that still has some large problems with his BB rate.
  2.  This downturn in our economy has been coming for quite a while.  The Fed has focused its efforts on inflation, and the housing slowdown has had a much larger affect on the overall economy than most first thought.  

by guru4u on Aug 15, 2007 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

well if that tropical storm tracks
into the gulf, expect the oil people to get rich as hell again like they did in 2005.

by Bravesin07 on Aug 15, 2007 12:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Economy
Guess it depends on how you consider a recession being "recognized", and what definition you use for recession. Some use a decline in GDP for two consecutive quarters, so we won't get there in the next three months. I'm curious how those numbers are calculated, if there could be any "cooking" of the books to insure the GDP keeps going up. As far as I can tell the last time the GDP went down even one quarter was 1990 (http://www.neatideas.com/data/data/GDP.htm), so not even 9/11 or the tech bubble caused a dip for one quarter, let alone two consecutive.

Using a looser definition for recession, I do think we'll get there, though Bush will surely deny it til he's out of office. But I think it will be early next year before we really hit the bottom.

Just happened to read a couple of articles on the sub-prime mess, and it just looks bad.


Today, yet another wave of nitwit lending has put the entire financial system at risk, and the subprime mortgage mess is only part of the problem. The rising wave of adjustable mortgage rate resets is a larger problem.

As John Mauldin points out in a recent newsletter, resets scheduled for next February and March alone will be more than all the resets in the first six months of this year, $197 billion. Resets in the first six months of next year, $521 billion, will be greater than all of 2007.

Talk about moments of truth. That's when many owners will become renters and many lenders will become harried owner/sellers. Then, not now, is when the housing market should start to bottom. It's also when consumers will be tightest with their spending, so we're likely to see a weaker economy than we see today.


from: http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/WhyYouCantTrustYourLender.aspx

and


Thornberg is among the economists who believes the mortgage market turmoil could lead to a recession during the next year. "This snowball is just 20 percent down the hill. It's nowhere near the bottom," he said.

from: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20216643/page/3/
"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on Aug 15, 2007 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

huh?
it's a matter of definition? sure, if you take "any" economic bad news as a recession, then we're in a recession now, always have been, and always will be. you say "some" use the 2 quarter in a row decline in GDP as the standard -- that's a bit like saying "some" use BA+BBs+HBP to calculate OBP. Sure, "some" do that (actually, "all" do that), so why don't we go with that standard definition? As you say, it's actually impossible by that definition that we'll be in a recession in 3 months, so John's statement is, frankly, ignorant (all due respect, John).

If you want to go by the definition that "bad" things are happening, sure, baby, we're always in recession, California will fall into the sea, the sky is falling, the end is coming, etc.

And while I agree that, in general, if 100 economists say 1 thing, the opposite is likely to happen, it's also true that psychologists have found that people will always describe their economic situation as okay, but the outside economic situation as dismal. Something in the human condition, I guess -- god knows this thread is an example. I think I'll go with the actual economic data and the expertise of actual experts in the field rather than populist hysteria.

by scooter on Aug 15, 2007 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

huh yourself
The National Bureau of Economic Research defines recession:

"A recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales. A recession begins just after the economy reaches a peak of activity and ends as the economy reaches its trough. Between trough and peak, the economy is in an expansion. Expansion is the normal state of the economy; most recessions are brief and they have been rare in recent decades."

So if you go strictly by 2 quarters of declining GDP, you'd need to be in a recession for 6+ months, probably longer just to fit over two quarters. Practically speaking, there are short recessions that are real and "felt" that are completely ignored by using the GDP method.

So, first to your assertion that "all" use 2 consecutive quarters of declining GDP as the definition, well, it's just not true. The folks at NBER don't, but what do they know. Maybe they're not "actual experts" and are part of the "populist hysteria".

Second, your comparison to OBP is quite good. Is OBP the end-all-be-all stat to define how good or bad a ballplayer is? I don't think you'd find anyone that would say it is, or at least anyone with basic knowledge of baseball. So why use GDP as the one and only barometer of the economy? It seems a very narrow view to me, and, frankly, ignorant (all due respect).

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on Aug 15, 2007 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

standard definition
"Recession
Definition

A period of general economic decline; specifically, a decline in GDP for two or more consecutive quarters."

That's the standard definition, the only variation I know of is if the NBER takes it upon itself to say that a shorter decline is so drastic that even in a shorter period of time it constitutes a recession.

So the real question would be: does anyone here think we're heading into a period of negative GDP growth? No? I wouldn't think so. Ergo....

As for alternate definitions of what is a barometer of a good or bad economy, I agree. But the assertion  by John wasn't that, it was specifically that we are about to have a recession -- and immediately there was a clamor of agreement (everyone loves bad news). That assertion is demonstrably false within the next 3 months, and far-fetched for anytime in the near future.

by scooter on Aug 15, 2007 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

your point being?
I use the term "recession" when the economy is in a downturn. My usage definitely does not match the "official" or "sanctioned" or "standard" one.

And do you know why I don't care? Because whenever I talk with colleagues or friends or family they are having the same meaning as me. We are ok with this.

So to 99% of the population they are thinking it's a recession. To the semantics & grammar police we are just hysteric fools that don't realize it's impossible to have a recession in the next quarter.

I think both of us will survive with our different meanings.

ps: I'm guessing you have a different meaning of "ignorant" and were not actually insulting someone but were in fact saying something nice. At least that is how I'll interpret it. :)

by pedrophile on Aug 15, 2007 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

my point?
is that we're not in a recession, nor are there indications that we are about to be in one. pretty simple, not sure where the confusion is.

your point seems to be,  by analogy, that if you say 2+2=5, and your friends nod their heads then, in fact, 2+2=5. I'll stick with semantics (and those horrible 'semantics police') in thinking that words have actual meaning.

by scooter on Aug 15, 2007 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

How's the view from your high horse?
Thinking that words have actual meaning, hmm.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/recession

OK, here's about 20 different definitions for recession, all actual meanings. So if pedrophile is talking to his friends about "A general business slump, less severe than a depression", then their discussion must be rubbish. Because naturally your definition of "The technical indicator of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by a country's GDP" is the only one of the twenty that matters, right?

Fact of the matter is, pedro is right, most people could give a crap about technical indicators. They see what affects them day to day, and that's what they worry about. While we might not be in a recession now, if you really think there aren't any indications of an economic slowdown, you should open your eyes a bit wider.

"Baseball is dull only to dull minds." -Red Barber

by e 6 on Aug 15, 2007 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

thanks
and add to the fact that:

<<your point seems to be,  by analogy, that if you say 2+2=5, and your friends nod their heads then, in fact, 2+2=5. I'll stick with semantics (and those horrible 'semantics police') in thinking that words have actual meaning.>>

It seems scooter doesn't understand how meanings of words are created. Consensus on a word does in fact create a new meaning/value for that word. That is a fact.

by pedrophile on Aug 16, 2007 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

question for you

FURTHER:

here are two definitions. The first has an origin of 1640. The second is from Princeton and is very recent. Based on your take on "actual" versus "consensus" then the first one is correct and the second is not. Making all your statements on recession seem foolish and uninformed. But if you subscribe to the second then you are allowing that many people can have contrarian meanings on the same word and each can be correct. That makes your rude comments make you look uninformed and rude.

So which is it?

re·ces·sion1      rɪˈsɛʃən Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-sesh-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
-noun
1.    the act of receding or withdrawing.
2.    a receding part of a wall, building, etc.
3.    a withdrawing procession, as at the end of a religious service.
4.    Economics. a period of an economic contraction, sometimes limited in scope or duration. Compare depression (def. 7).
[Origin: 1640-50; < L recessiōn- (s. of recessiō). See recess, -ion]

recession

noun

  1.     the state of the economy declines; a widespread decline in the GDP and employment and trade lasting from six months to a year
  2.     a small concavity [syn: recess]
  3.     the withdrawal of the clergy and choir from the chancel to the vestry at the end of a church service
  4.     the act of ceding back
  5.     the act of becoming more distant [syn: receding]

by pedrophile on Aug 16, 2007 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

kershaw
i agree with the aggressive promotion. i'll cite gary huckabay, who originally said "there's no such thing as a pitching prospect."

by jpahk on Aug 15, 2007 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

pitching coach
I don't know the Dodgers system well, but do you think they moved him to AA because of a specific guy they want him to work with?  Just a thought.  Maybe he'll be in the FSL next year, but they want him to get some instruction on a specific piece (ie. fixing the walks), and the coach there is better than the FSL pitching coach at that.  It's certainly not unheard of to jump a player a level, and there's no reason to think that he's going to lose any confidence because of it.

by phiago on Aug 15, 2007 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

Economy vs. Kershaw
Now, I'm no expert, but I do transcribe and edit company financial quarterly conference calls for a living, and I can tell you, that out of the 10-15 calls per day that I do -- about one company a day actually has good news to report.

Bunches of companies are doing nothing but talking about how bad this subprime stuff is -- even companies that have little to nothing to do with the housing market.

Other companies are talking about how commodity prices have skyrocketed (anybody notice the price of cheese or milk or soda at the grocery store lately?)

And the biggest point is many companies believe people are spending less as a whole because they think the economy is going into the toilet (thus creating a self-fufilling prophecy.)  Notice Wall-Mart results yesterday??

Like, I said, I'm no expert, but everything I'm hearing from these CEOs and CFOs of U.S. companies is not good.

As for Kerhshaw -- I remain bullish!

by Ur on Aug 15, 2007 3:07 PM EDT reply actions  

economy
I disagree on the economy point.  The market is in a state of flux, and the housing market is getting worse, but the trade deficit is closing, and consumer spending is still strong, so it will probably be a while longer before we are in a hard recession.

by JFP on Aug 15, 2007 5:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Consumer spending
...has recently begun to decline.  Lots of bad reports from the retail sector.

by FunWithHeadlines on Aug 15, 2007 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Spending
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/business/15shop.html?em&ex=1187409600&en=06aa113e5511df17& amp;ei=5087%0A

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/14/business/14econ.html

Here are two seperate articles, the first talks about Wal-Mart and Home Depot reporting sales slumps, but that some of the problem could be there fault.  The second is a report from the Commerce Department about a rise in consumer spending for July.

by JFP on Aug 16, 2007 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Economy
Did Mike Harkey predict a recession?
Whatever happened to Clear Pepsi?

by Buddy on Aug 15, 2007 7:16 PM EDT reply actions  

recession call
..always a courageous one (unless it's 1930), but probably about 40-60 or as high as 50-50 right now, which is pretty high IMO, 'til you actually hit the point of no return.

I think the economy will -- just barely -- muddle through, but I expect a lot of punk GDP numbers for the next few quarters, though no negative ones.

We'll see.

by wcw on Aug 15, 2007 11:53 PM EDT reply actions  

recession already
I'm no economist, but I feel we've been in a recession for a few years now.  Decreased job opportunities, a weak dollar, etc.  The government preached "consumerism as the new patriotism" to give a false sense of security by lowering taxes and interest rates.  Sorry, we can't spend our way out of a recession; sooner or later the debtors come calling.  The housing boom felt good, but it was always a house of cards.  

by HavyBeaks on Aug 16, 2007 8:38 AM EDT reply actions  

Kershaw
I don't have a problem with it.  With only a couple of weeks left in the season, the Dodgers are probably trying to figure out whether they should move him up to A+ or AA for next season.  If he can hold his own at AA over the last couple of weeks of the season, they can start him there next season.  If not, they'll just put him in A+ to start 2008.

by Tcs5384 on Aug 17, 2007 4:35 AM EDT reply actions  

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