Opinion on Prior

by WakeboardJock @ Minor League Ball on Jan 19, 2006 9:27 PM EST

Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, this is not a fantasy question, as I have already drafted Prior. But I was wondering what you guys thought about Mr. Prior. He is a promising player, but he has been injured with various maladies. Some of these injuries have been freakish, (getting hit by a ball), but is he worth the risk?

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Uhm, yes

None of Prior's injuries have been career threatening. What you see is what you get, he's a stud.

"When people talk, listen completely. Most people never listen." (Hemingway)

by jmoultz on Jan 19, 2006 9:54 PM EST reply actions

big fly

I'm more worried about Prior's increasing fly/gopher ball tendencies. Overall, still a stud, but perhaps not quite the dominator originally envisioned.

"I may not be a class act, but I'm an American." Ron Artest on wanting to play for the Olympic team

by natsfan2005 @ Minor League Ball on Jan 19, 2006 10:01 PM EST reply actions

aberration

I think his injuries are the sole root of this. He hasn't been 100%, once he is healthy those stats will fall back into line. It's a fine line between excellent, pin-point control and getting hammered onto Waveland Ave. A few inches makes all the difference in the world. By watching Prior last year, you could really see this. Same goes with this rubbish about his "bad mechanics" that are all of a sudden poor and are going to lead to arm injury. He hasn't been himself. Any of the video/analysis I've seen that attempts to show he uses too much/incorrect upper body delivery has been done while he was suffering from either the Marcus Giles collision or the line drive he took to the arm. I think his mechanics were obviously out of whack during these times. He has one of the most fluid and effortless deliveries that uses TONS of leg drive. I'd be more worried about guys like Roy Oswalt that are slightly undersized and/or have a max effort delivery. Prior is neither.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 19, 2006 10:23 PM EST up reply actions

rubbish about mechanics?

his mechanics are fine, so i agree with that. its his throwing motion thats terrible. way too much torque on his elbow, when watching him you can actually see that he is aware of this and tries to deliberatley correct it. unfortunately your throwing motion is not easily changed, ask wade miller.

by taggartd on Jan 19, 2006 11:08 PM EST up reply actions

HUH?

How is there a difference between 'throwing motion' and mechanics. I thought mechanics was all about, your 'throwing motion'.

Sometimes fixing the mechanics causes problems. Wade Miller threw across his body. When he stopped this his fastball stopped cutting back to the plate allowing righties to tee up on him.

by pedrophile on Jan 20, 2006 1:53 AM EST up reply actions

throwing motion

mechanics is how you deliever the ball(basically your windup, how your body lands etc.) throwing motion or arm action is different. everybody has an arm action, johnny damon, rafael furcal, its just the way you throw. dont know if that makes sense. pitching is really hard to explain without showing.

by taggartd on Jan 20, 2006 2:06 AM EST up reply actions

Throwing motion

falls under mechanics to me. Again, this has been altered by his injuries. Prior is as big of a student of his craft as any pitcher/coach out there. I gaurantee he knows more about his mechanics/throwing motion/whatever you want to call it than anyone on the this board ten-fold. If there were a critical flaw caused by his normal mechanics, he would correct it. Throwing is an un-natural arm motion, it is a very violent physical activity. There is no such thing as "perfect" mechanics/arm motion. There is such thing as mechanics that are bad/high risk in relation to "correct" ways of pitching. I don't see these when Prior is on his normal game. Prior runs more of a risk when Dusty lets hims pitch his way out of a game. When he gets to extreme pitch counts, fatique can cause mechanics to fall apart quickly and an injury becomes exponentionally more likely to occur. Only time will give us the answer ultimately.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 7:14 AM EST up reply actions

Prior's elbow torque...

Makes me want to gag, its completely unnatural the way his forearm is BELOW his elbow when he throws, if he doesn't have 3 TJ surgeries by the end of his career, I'll be surprised... yes his throwing motion is that bad...

by jspearlj1 on Jan 20, 2006 10:39 AM EST up reply actions

Frankly....

You have no idea what you are talking about. Visit the National Pitching Association website and see what Dr. Yokum, Dr. Andrews, Nolan Ryan and all the other board members have to say. Go to a clinic or two.

I absolutely love armchair pitching coaches. If a guy's arm is hurt it HAS to be from bad mechanics and EVERYONE knows what they are doing wrong. There are people getting paid to work with these young people, that's their life, it amazes me that in spite of this fact, people on message boards know more than they do. Why in the world can't Rothschild figure out what it takes people on this board all of 10 minutes to see? How come no one evers says "I saw that coming" when a football player blows out his knee making a cut? Didn't he have "bad mechanics"?

I also love those who spout off what they heard on TV, "throwing is an unnatural motion". Really? Did aliens come down and teach pitchers how to do this?

I coach and teach pitching, Mark Prior is as close to perfection as you can get this side of Greg Maddux. Does that mean he won't ever hurt his arm? Nope, arms break down, that's what they do.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 1:55 PM EST up reply actions

Un-natural

It is what it is. Your arm was not designed to channel the entire force of your body into a baseball. I didn't "see it on TV" either. I read it on a piece of paper I found in a box of Cracker-Jack... OK that's not true, I've researched it quite a bit. I've read it in numerous places and have talked with an anatomy professor of mine at college who happens to also work in sports medicine / is a huge baseball fan.

Aliens didn't teach pitchers to do that, just like they didn't teach prostitutes how to put their ankles behind their ears. Just because people can do it, doesn't make it right or "natural."

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 2:10 PM EST up reply actions

I hand my two year old a ball

and he's throws it overhand.........natural as can be.........and he's never met a prostitute in his life.....that I know of.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 2:17 PM EST up reply actions

Throwing

is one thing. Before we became more civilized, we relied on our arms to throw stones, spears, etc. to hunt. I'm not suggesting the act of throwing is totally un-natural, rather the act of pitching a baseball fits this description better, especially when it becomes 100's of times in a week. My son will also drink a bottle of Drain-O if I give it to him. It's natural, but it doesn't mean it's good for you.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 2:22 PM EST up reply actions

Getting off the point a bit

The point is that the throwing motion in and of itself does not cause arm injuries. The act of pitching does not cause injuries.

"100's of times in a week."

BINGO! All arms break down (believe me I know, mine did) the question is how much can this arm take versus this arm, etc. My fear for Prior is the complete misuse by Baker and the coaching staff. Rest, rest, rest, I preach it, I teach it. 100 pitches won't break your arm, but 100 pitches every 3-4 days for 6 months will.

If you do anything your body is capable of this many times it will break down. (My mom even says if you do some things too much you'll go blind, but I think she was wrong).

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 2:29 PM EST up reply actions

Well... yeah

but what about Leo? This is one thing I'm on the fence about. He makes his guys throw and throw. Most Braves pitchers have been relatively injury free, so I'm not sure I agree it's all about the amount.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 2:36 PM EST up reply actions

its not only the amount

Leo does alot of flat ground throwing. Throwing off the mound creates 6x as much force at stride foot contact. He creates excellent mechanics, gets the proper rest and has low intesity workouts to maintain consistency. The guy is genius and a HOFer.

You also never see Braves pitchers throw 120 pitches, which would require more rest.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 2:43 PM EST up reply actions

Exactly

"You also never see Braves pitchers throw 120 pitches, which would require more rest."

Why I hate Dusty. Die, Dusty, die.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 2:48 PM EST up reply actions

re: Dusty

You never see Cubs pitchers throw 120 pitches either. Why, except for Maddux, that would barely get them into the 8th inning - and the ballgame is 9 innings long, isn't it?
(tongue firmly in cheek)

by BobbyMac on Jan 20, 2006 11:04 PM EST up reply actions

A chink, make that a dent in the credibility.

I follow your advice and visited the site and what name do I see listed as a member? Dusty Baker. This is like Saddam Hussein being a member of the Nobel Peace Prize panel.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 3:01 PM EST up reply actions

LOL

Dusty is only a member because of Prior. he is NOT on the board.

Anyone can become a member, doesn't mean they have a say in policy, kind of like the Republican Party.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 3:39 PM EST up reply actions

I take that back......

he is on the board.....man that IS scary.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 3:41 PM EST up reply actions

Again, I don't agree

The throwing motion is NOT part of your mechanics. This is old school thinking. The arm path is a natural motion, messing with that is what has led to a generation of arm injuries and poor performance (easily seen at the ML level).

Mechanics are built off the throwing motion. Everything else falls in line with the natural throwing motion to create dynamic balance throughout the entire delivery. There is nobody (again, this side of maddux) more dynamically balanced than Mark Prior.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 2:06 PM EST up reply actions

I agree

with this. I just failed to to articulate it that way. Intertwined was the word that was escaping me.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 2:28 PM EST up reply actions

I don't agree with Mike Marshall

His analysis that Prior's arm path is causing his problems is flawed. Honestly, its amazing how much legs his comments got. You certainly didn't hear any of the mainstream pitching experts backing up Marshall.

Prior works with Tom House and Rick Peterson at the biomechanical research institute in Alabama (not coincidentally near Dr. Andrews). Their research is years ahead of anything Marshall is looking at. I suggest any of you that are interested check out what they are doing. Lengthened Randy Johnson's career by probably 3 years.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 2:03 PM EST up reply actions

Prior's elbow...

So because you say so, you know better... Look, I'm not questioning his mechanics, they are as you say, completely balanced. However, to look at the amount of torque he puts on his elbow and say its OK doesn't make any sense. It's basic anatomy, ligaments are not made to do that by any stretch of the imagination. When you throw a ball that hard, for that long and with that amount of torque, its bad for your elbow. Prior's perfect mechanics have helped him stay healthy in spite of it because he can reduce the amount of strain on his ligament by being balanced. Freak non-related pitching injuries help keep his wear and tear down as well. However, I have never seen a pitcher do what Prior does with his elbow, so don't go on about how its natural to do so...

by jspearlj1 on Jan 20, 2006 2:27 PM EST up reply actions

Clemens does the same thing

Look I'm not here to tell I know better than you do, but you need to understand where Marshall was coming from with his statements. Just because a former major league pitcher says something doesn't mean its true. Marshall has been shunned by just about everyone in baseball because he's way off base with alot of his stuff. If Marshall was so sure he was right, why not call Prior and say look I can fix your problems? He does that he's back in the game, but no, he goes to the press and spouts off and all that does is get his name out there.

Break down Clemens frame by frame, his arm arc and Prior's, at the point of stride foot contact are very similar. Clemens arm makes a similar "loop" to what Marshall is talking about. He's wrong, plain and simple. Prior keeping his arm closer to his ear as Marshall clearly points out, is similar to a figure skater who pulls their arms in to create more rotation in a spin, keeping more weight closer to the center of gravity. Its not basic anatomy as you suggest, its basic physics.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 3:51 PM EST up reply actions

stop

i didnt even read the rest of it because comparing roger to prior is not worth reading. priors windup is beautiful as is his balance throughout, roger has a great arm action, priors is terrible. also roger is much more of a drop and drive pitcher than prior is. i also coach pitching and have blown out an arm. i knew my arm action was bad, but i was effective while it lasted and i couldnt change it no matter how hard i tried. takes something like 10000 correct repetitions in a row to change something.

by taggartd on Jan 20, 2006 4:03 PM EST up reply actions

You probably blew out your arm......

because you tried to change it. Drop and drive, changing a pitcher's arm action, any drill designed to work on the "follow-through".....all OLD school thinking.

by HuskerBob on Jan 23, 2006 10:31 AM EST up reply actions

no way

throwing motion is very flawed. elbow will blow out sooner rather than later.

by taggartd on Jan 19, 2006 10:07 PM EST reply actions

YES!?

Per 33 starts (full season in rotation)his numbers look like THIS:

E.RA W-L INN HIT HR BB K'S
3.24 14-8 209 182 23 66 244

The number of times he has done this looks like THIS: 0 He was pretty close in 2003.

Point is, even here in the fantasy projection for full year he has only 208 innings. So many half starts and injuries and first start back after injuries.

Almost everyone I know, including me, really likes Prior. He seems like a competitor, he's big, has great stuff and command BUT you get tired of waiting for him to pitch like an ace...or, I should say...as often as an ace, which he might or might not do. Getting traded to a park which suits his talents better would really help, i believe

Relly sorry (NOT!!!) to mention my fantasy league but I traded him a day after I acquired him precisely because he is thought of a 20 game winner and one of the 10 best starters in the game but he brings you even LESS than those #s above....at least the last 2 years...for pretty much LIvan Hernandez. Love Livan, but he isn't as good as Prior...but you might settle for a guy who takes the mound after a while. Love to keep Prior around though...if you can afford to.

As far as if he's worth it...just think of his value/what you could get for him...what you are getting...being able to predict the future helps a bit. Prior 2006? 2.82 22-6 224IP 284K's
3.65 9-8 155IP 171K's

casedog

by casejud on Jan 19, 2006 10:13 PM EST reply actions

I drafted him on potential yes, but also value

Plus I have a man crush on him. Not really, but his value is really high because he was always an uber-prospect.

Taggartd- thats an incredible assumption, do you have any proof or are you just going to make a general statement?

when your ERA has letters and not numbers, it's a bad thing- kevin goldstein

by WakeboardJock @ Minor League Ball on Jan 19, 2006 10:18 PM EST reply actions

proof?

does anyone really have proof about how long tendons will hold up? from being a guy who pitched in college and teaches pitching it is my opinion that his throwing motion will lead to a bad elbow. not saying i know everything about pitching because i dont but i can see from watching him that he uses too much elbow. it is hard to explain in this format without actually showing you, but this i what i see.

by taggartd on Jan 19, 2006 11:12 PM EST up reply actions

Prior

I heard the same thing about Prior and his bad mechanics.

Here is the article about it. Let me know what you guys think of it. I think it's B.S.

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/columns/ladewski/x27-lad1.htm

by colinadam on Jan 19, 2006 11:29 PM EST up reply actions

why?

Why is it bs? Because you are a homer ;) ?

but seriously why wouldn't they look into it to see if this guy is right? It's not like he has no qualifications.

by pedrophile on Jan 20, 2006 2:02 AM EST up reply actions

whatever I think...

Whatever I think about Marshall or the article - and honestly it's not very in-depth so it's difficult to think much of it either way, I agree with this quote 100%:

"If I were [Hendry] and had two huge talents like Prior and Kerry Wood, I would search high and low for answers. I would go to Tibet. I would go anywhere in the world to make sure that two talented young men didn't destroy their careers."

I'm not sure what would convince me that the Cubs front office is doing this. If Wood unveils a gyroball this year, that would certainly do it.

by BobbyMac on Jan 20, 2006 5:31 AM EST up reply actions

they are doing that

"I'm not sure what would convince me that the Cubs front office is doing this."

Prior works at the biomechanical research institute in Alabama every offseason, with alot more respect pitching coaches than Mike Marshall.

If Marshall is so smart why can't he get an MLB gig? Publicity stunt for him, plain and simple.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 2:24 PM EST up reply actions

that's good to hear.

I don't care much what happens to the Cubs, but I feel like the game loses something whenever one of these supreme talents flames out. So, I am glad to hear that someone is taking care of the "natural resource" which is Mark Prior's right arm. :>

I read your comment above, too, HuskerBob - "I coach and teach pitching, Mark Prior is as close to perfection as you can get this side of Greg Maddux. Does that mean he won't ever hurt his arm? Nope, arms break down, that's what they do." I don't coach or teach pitching, but until this thread, everything I'd heard agreed with you. For example, Steve Stone elaborated on Wood's mechanical imperfections somewhat frequently while broadcasting Cubs' games, but I never heard a naysaying word about Prior. Of course, usually when Stone talked about Wood/Prior/Zambrano it was pure jealousy at their amazing stuff.

by BobbyMac on Jan 20, 2006 11:13 PM EST up reply actions

Mike Marshall

is a moron and was looking for publicity for his work. He's a flake and he's flat out wrong.

None of the respected pitching experts have ever said anything but that Prior has excellent mechanics. If Rick Peterson came out tomorrow and said Prior's motion needs work I'd listen, but Marshall is a whack job.

by HuskerBob on Jan 20, 2006 2:22 PM EST up reply actions

Agreed.

Marshall is nuts, especially when you see his price-tag.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 2:26 PM EST up reply actions

Dr. Mike Marshall

Dr. Mike Marshall is a very intelligent thinker (mon opinion). Check out www.drmikemarshall.com, review his education, and read his thoughts, if you have an open mind (it's tough reading but somebody has to do it). Dr. Marshall has years of educational experience and has applied that education to pitching. He expresses himself well from my reading of his writings. I will admit I am not a pitching coach (not many of us are except some people commenting on this website), but there are sure a lot of pitchers that get arm, elbow and shoulder injuries (we all knew that didn't we). Maybe some of the pitch coaching techniques can be improved. Maybe Prior might be helped by some of Dr. Marshall's ideas (better to check out his ideas prior to injury - pun intended). .

For those of you who do not remember him, Dr. Marshall was an outstanding relief pitcher, even won a Cy Young. While he has been known to rub some people the wrong way (hey, I even do that on an occasion), he got along very well with two great managers of people, Walter Alston and Gene Mauch. For an interesting article on Mike Marshall's career, check out http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_12_62/ai_110471526.

And no, I don't know Dr. Marshall, other than remember him pitching for the great Los Angeles Dodgers and feel some of the negative comments, e.g., "moron", "nuts", "whack job" warrants a fair appraisal of his thoughts.

by texleague on Jan 20, 2006 6:45 PM EST up reply actions

You clearly don't know Marshall

Some of the words used about him (myself included) on here are wrong but don't let that confuse things. No, and I mean NO respected pitching expert in the game agrees with anything Marshall does or says. In fact, I dare anyone to find another pitching "guru" whose opinion on major league pitching gets this much attention from the media and yet doesn't work with a single professional pitcher.

You also can't let his success as a pitcher affect your views of his opinions. Complete separate points and one has no bearing on the other.

Education does not in any equal expertise.

by HuskerBob on Jan 23, 2006 10:38 AM EST up reply actions

Keep him around.

I have had Prior for three seasons now in my DMB league, and am about to have him for his fourth-eighth years because I just wrapped him up with a contract extension.

Prior is the only player I listed as "untouchable" from day 1 when I took over the Cubs in March 2003. He has remained untouchable too.

Each of these past two seasons he has had a freak injury that has prevented him from doing what he is capable of. The collision and the batted ball are not TJ types of injuries, or anything career threatening. Until he starts to get true pitching injuries, I will not be worried.

As a side note, I saw Livan mentioned earlier... I signed him last year as well. Gotta love inning eaters who keep you in almost every game :)

by Boxkutter on Jan 19, 2006 10:59 PM EST reply actions

He still has to pass, once again,

through Baker's gauntlet. B Prospectus (esp Rany) keeps abuse-data on starting pitchers. Since 2003, despite missing loads of starts, he's been one of the most misused & abused pitchers in baseball.

27 GS, 3rd overall in MLB
21 GS, 49th
30 GS, 4th

Only Livan, Kerrt W, Zambrano & Schmidt compare to those ranks.

by Azteca on Jan 19, 2006 11:11 PM EST up reply actions

yeah but.........

Carlos Zambrano is a horse. His forearm injury was from overuse on the computer. I agree that ptcher abuse is an evaluation tool but there are exceptions. Zambrano, in my opinion, is one of them.

"Baseball is 90% mental, the other half is physical" - Yogi Berra

by the pinstripes on Jan 20, 2006 12:35 AM EST up reply actions

Forearm

When I read that, I thought the forearm was a cover up for a real injury. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but thats kind of freakish.

when your ERA has letters and not numbers, it's a bad thing- kevin goldstein

by WakeboardJock @ Minor League Ball on Jan 20, 2006 9:05 AM EST reply actions

Forearm

was not a cover up. When a line drive leaves a bat and instantaneously hits you on the part of the body in question, I think it's safe to say there was no conspiracy.

"Second guessers are guys that could have never gotten it right the first time." - Tommy Lasorda (for guys that have no other defense for their actions.)

by slurve on Jan 20, 2006 9:22 AM EST reply actions

Brilliant

I am not qualified to judge his elbow mechanics. When he is on the mound, he seems to throw free and easy, with awesome stuff.

Some players have to battle through injuries and crappy managers when they are young...

by akk99 on Jan 20, 2006 11:29 AM EST reply actions

Coverup

I was talking about a coverup for Zambrano, not Prior. I know you can't fake a line drive, at least I think you can't.

when your ERA has letters and not numbers, it's a bad thing- kevin goldstein

by WakeboardJock @ Minor League Ball on Jan 20, 2006 1:43 PM EST reply actions

read somewhere..

where prior's going on dl early in the year is as natural part of his getting ready to pitch as is spring training.

gearing his arm and elbow up the tremendous torque he puts on it ain't easy and requires a dl stint.

id just soon stay clear of prior.

by dryice on Jan 21, 2006 12:09 PM EST reply actions

Will Carroll on BP in response to Mike Marshall

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4681

This may be subscriber based, but he also has his own blog at http://thejuice.baseballtoaster.com/ which may have more on the issue.

by rustic on Jan 21, 2006 2:27 PM EST reply actions

People complaining about Prior...

should look at a few guys...Johan Santana among them...who do the exact same thing.

Short arming is bad for the elbow, but both Prior and Santana are fine mechanically otherwise hence neither has had an actual and serious injury to their arm from pitching.

Thats the last thing I worry about Prior, its more Dusty the Dumbass and how hard he pushes Prior right after injury that gets me.

by SenorGato88 on Jan 22, 2006 5:46 PM EST reply actions