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Prospect Retrospective: Jorge Posada, C, New York Yankees

Prospect Retrospective: Jorge Posada

As you are no doubt aware, Yankees catcher Jorge Posada announced his retirement a few days ago. This seems like a good idea to take a look at what Posada was like as a prospect, and how his career ranks in context.

Posada was drafted by the New York Yankees in the 24th round in 1990 from high school in Puerto Rico. He was a draft-and-follow choice, not signing right away and attending Calhoun Community College in Alabama, where he played shortstop.

Star-divide

He signed with the Yankees in the spring of 1991 and was sent to Oneonta in the New York-Penn League. He hit just .235 in 71 games, with a .359 SLG, but he also showed good plate discipline by drawing 51 walks in 280 plate appearances. He played second base primarily. At this point, he would have been something like a "Grade C prospect with higher potential," someone with the tools to succeed but without much polish yet, although the high walk rate was an intriguing marker.

Posada moved up to Low-A Greensboro in 1992, hitting .277/.389/.472 with 12 homers and 58 walks in 406 plate appearances. He split his time between DH and a new position, catcher, where he showed the necessary tools but (not surprisingly) needed experience and polish. The big surge in his power production was a positive sign, and at age 20 he had lots of growth potential left. Nowadays, I would probably give a similar prospect a strong Grade C+ or maybe a Grade B-, depending on the exact scouting reports. It is hard to say in retrospect, of course, given that we know how Posada turned out.

Promoted to High-A Prince William in the Carolina League for 1993, he hit .259/.366/.459, with 17 homers and 67 walks. He also stole 17 bases in 22 attempts. I don't have defensive scouting reports or complete statistics dating back that far, but he coughed up 38 passed balls in 107 games, obviously an unacceptable ratio. The bat looked good though, and he would probably have rated as a strong C+ or a B- once again.

Posada skipped ahead to Triple-A Columbus in 1994, hitting .240/.308/.406 with 11 homers and 32 walks in 92 games. He missed part of the season with a broken leg and fractured ankle suffered in a home plate collision. My friend Eddie Epstein gave Posada a Grade C in the 1995 STATS Minor League Scouting Notebook, noting that Posada had held his own considering the jump in competition and had interesting offensive potential, but that he was hard to grade due to the injury and lack of positive defensive scouting reports.

He returned to Columbus in 1995 and hit .255/.350/.435 with eight homers, 54 walks, and 101 strikeouts in 432 plate appearances. He also got into one major league game with the Yankees. Reports on Posada at this stage indicated fair power potential and a strong throwing arm, but his defense remained rough and he wasn't considered a top prospect by any means. I gave him a Grade C in my first book, the 1996 edition of the Minor League Scouting Notebook, writing that Posada posted a "decent" +8 percent OPS, but that his defense needed work, he "doesn't hit for average" and had a high strikeout rate.

Returning to Triple-A again in 1996, Posada hit .271/.405/.460 with 11 homers and 79 walks in 440 plate appearances. He got into eight games with the Yankees, going 1-for-14 with six strikeouts. He threw out just 25% of runners trying to steal on him, and reports indicated the Yankees were unhappy with his glove. In the 1997 book, I wrote "it is time for the Yankees to play him or trade him. . .switch-hitting catchers with some power and good on-base percentages deserves a chance to play." I also noted that "Posada has never been good at throwing out runners despite a strong arm, so the Yanks are reluctant to give him a shot at a starting job, which is understandable. Still, one would think that a backup catcher with his kind of secondary offensive skills would be attractive."

Posada played 60 games for the Yankees in 1997, hitting .250/.359/.410 (OPS+ 101), throwing out just 20% of runners trying to steal on him, although he was reasonably reliable otherwise. He didn't really blossom until 2000 when he hit .287/.417/.527 (OPS+ 139) at age 28. This was the best season of his career according to WAR, with a 6.2 mark.

Posada was a five-time All-Star and five-time Silver Slugger winner, finishing with a career mark of .273/.374/.474, 121 OPS+, WAR 47.6. Among major league catchers, his WAR ranks 15th all-time, in the neighborhood of Bill Freehan (52.8), Lance Parrish (48.0), Buck Ewing (47.5), and Gene Tenace (47.4).

According to Sim Scores, his best comps are Carlton Fisk, Lance Parrish, Gabby Hartnett, Javy Lopez, Gary Carter, and Bill Dickey.

Although he showed some intriguing skills in the minors, Posada spent three years in Triple-A, wasn't considered a top prospect, and was seen primarily as a potentially solid role player. Certainly no one anticipated he would become one of the best catchers in baseball history. He is a good example of why even Grade C prospects can't be ignored. Sometimes they surprise you.

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Posada had a very good MLB career.

With that said he doesn’t belong in the hall of fame, though he is close to that level. I think if he were from a different generation he would get in but with the wave of retired talent that he will have to compete with I just don’t see him making it. I think he has a 50/50 shot at making it through the Veteran’s Committee though.

If he did make it I wouldn’t be too upset though, he would be FAR from the least deserving in the Hall.

Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN

by Nnamdi Asomugha on Jan 26, 2012 1:45 PM EST reply actions  

I am a big Hall kind of guy

To me, he belongs in the Hall. I agree that he will probably not make it anytime soon, he might make it in via the writer’s, but probably by the VC. He has some positives (playoffs, offense at catcher) and negatives (defense, being a catcher on the writer’s ballot), so it will be interesting to see how he fairs.

by cookiedabookie on Jan 26, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting with all the Edgar Martinez snubbing...

That a quality bat playing shitty at a defensive position should get credit for the contextual involvement he has with other players in said position. It’s like, you can play a shitty short stop, but since you’re amongst the best hitters who ever played short stop, you’re a Hall of Fame short stop! Meanwhile, if his bat was playing where it belonged, first or DH, we wouldn’t even be talking about Hall of Fame credentials with Posada. The lesson here is: If you want to get into the hall, play an important defensive position, albeit shitty, and make sure you can hit like an average first baseman.

Boggles my mind how defense seems to matter way too much sometimes and other times not at all.

This post isn’t specifically directed at you, btw. I’m just ranting.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 26, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Position legitimately matters

If the standard adjustment is correct, an average fielding catcher is worth 25 more runs per year than an average fielding 1B. Was Posada really that bad a catcher to erase that entire advantage?

by psiogen on Jan 26, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't know enough about catcher defense to quantify it in a WAR type setting.

Though there’s some good work in progress.

The point isn’t really “how much” in terms of numbers someone is good or bad at defense. We have people in the hall with great reputations for defense (Ozzie Smith) and we have people who were absolute nightmares in the field but were awesome bats (pick one, there’s lots). It’s the players who don’t have those upper echelon bats AND don’t play good defense at their position that bother me (the Jim Rice types). Is Posada’s bat really that significant compared to other Hall members? No. Is his bat significant compared to other catchers? Yes. Thus, he gets consideration.

But if you’re a shitty catcher, and everybody knows it (and let’s not split hairs here, the league knew Posada was a bad catcher), why should you get credit for being compared to other catchers, especially the ones whose bats were as good, or less, than Posada’s, but their defense carried the day?

I think the only player I’d really allow to get away with that is Mike Piazza, but only because Mike was a borderline Hall of Famer without being a catcher. Posada is a slightly above average career hitter playing catcher position because he could not because he should.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 26, 2012 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

A career 122 wRC+ is more than just slightly above average

And it certainly compares well to many players in the Hall of Fame (although, as you say, usually players at premium positions.) But they’re premium for a reason. Even a bad SS or C is usually a way better defensive player than your typical 1B.

I agree we don’t have enough data on catcher defense, but you still haven’t proven that Posada “should” have played a position other than catcher. He doesn’t have a great defensive reputation, but he wasn’t horrible at the stuff we can easily measure (CS%, PB, E). If you were his manager, would you really have moved him to 1B/DH at the start of his career?

by psiogen on Jan 27, 2012 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Per the profile above, he was moved TO catcher from a full time DH in the minors.

And no, because at the start of his career first there was some dude named Mattingly and then some dude named Martinez manning first. I’m not going to second guess what the Yankees did with his development path because I don’t know what they were thinking. It isn’t really the point anyway. Just because someone is at a position doesn’t mean they should get credit for it IF their ability to man the position is bad.

As for the defensive stuff we can easily measure not being “horrible”, it doesn’t take very long to use Fangraphs to compare Jorge Posada to other HOF catchers. He doesn’t even come close to measuring up. Hell, just look at him compared to his peers in his timeline:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/posadjo01.shtml

Scroll down towards the bottom to see the leaderboards and “honors”. Pay careful attention to the errors, passed balls, stolen bases surrendered, and caught stealing % (not the “caught stealing” himself as in him trying to steal and failing). He was pretty damned bad his whole career.

Fans are typically idiots.

by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jan 27, 2012 3:31 AM EST up reply actions  

No, he moved from 2B to C and DH

The DH was a way to keep his legs fresh, I would assume, and to share time with other catchers. But he was not moved from DH to C.

by cookiedabookie on Jan 27, 2012 8:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't really think Posada is more than a dubious, borderline Hall of Fame case, personally

But he’s still legitimately a catcher. 24th all-time in games played at the position. Just squatting there and taking 1500+ games of that abuse for your team is a huge contribution. I doubt you’ll find many 1B/DHs who can do it.

by psiogen on Jan 27, 2012 10:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Catcher

Catching also takes a tremendous physical toll, and it’s reasonable to expect there to be some suppression of offensive ability due to that.

Frankly, I have no problem with Posada as a Hall of Famer. While he was never a great defensive catcher, he did work hard enough to become decent by the early Aughties (02-05ish.) His longevity is also a point in his favor. All told, he’s probably one of the ten best bats ever to play catcher. That’s probably a Hall of Famer.

by GuyinNY on Jan 27, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

The types I think that Jorge really compares poorly to

Are guys like John Olerud, Keith Hernandez, and Robin Ventura—good bats who played great defense but aren’t given due credit for it in the HOF’s eyes. A great defensive third baseman has more defensive value than a poor defensive catcher. Yes, catchers perhaps should get some “wear and tear” credit, but that just means they deserve some extra slack on the career length issues. Even, perhaps especially, great defensive first baseman aren’t given due credit. If these guys aren’t getting in—and they’re not—I don’t think there’s a great case for Jorge. He’s as much on the wrong side of borderline as any of them.

"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet

What a fool I was to defy him"

-HST

by Mark Himmelstein on Jan 29, 2012 2:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Great writeup John

Posada was one of my favorite Yankees, and it’s always cool to see how he evolved from being a 24th-round pick as an infielder to a borderline HOF’er as a catcher. It’s interesting to see that the Yankees had him skip AA, I can’t imagine them doing that with any prospect these days.

http://www.yankeeanalysts.com

by lemonjello on Jan 26, 2012 7:16 PM EST reply actions  

That 95 Clippers team

Had Posada, Mariano Rivera, Jeter, and (briefly) Andy Pettite… and the guy everyone thought was the best prospect was Ruben Rivera. Funny how things turned out

by NU Wildcat Offense on Jan 27, 2012 8:07 PM EST reply actions  

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