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2012 Baseball Farm System Rankings

Toronto Blue Jays general manager Alex Anthopoulos explains Martin Heidegger's concept of the Dasein to a group of Toronto Blue Jay fans (AP Photo/The Canadian Press, Chris Young)

2012 Baseball Farm System Rankings

I have never done formal farm system rankings before. People have asked me to do it constantly over the years, but I guess I read too much post-modern stuff in college and the idea of saying "this farm system is better than that farm system" never appealed to me outside of generalities.

Star-divide

By this I mean, everyone knows the Blue Jays farm system (one of the best) is better than the Marlins farm system (one of the worst), but an actual ranking of all 30 teams in "order" never interested me.

One could say with a great measure of accuracy that the Padres and Rangers have better farm systems than the Astros and White Sox, but saying that "the Athletics are 11th and the Pirates are 12th" was a statement containing within it so many subjective assumptions that it could not possibly be considered objectively true.

Nevertheless, over the years, various readers have taken my letter grades and generated farm system rankings from those grades. Community member DougDirt has done a lot of work with this the last few years. Doug has put a ton of thought into this and I applaud his efforts.

Community member Backtocali worked up a similar list using a different set of assumptions.

Again, I applaud his efforts. They both spent a lot of time and effort on these rankings and I greatly appreciate what they've done.

There is obviously a huge amount of interest in these kinds of lists, so despite my misgivings, I decided "what the hell" and have worked up a list of my own. There is a mathematical component that plays into this, similar to what Doug and Cali did although based on slightly different assumptions. However, the following list is not based solely on a formula, and some teams were moved up or down a few notches for various reasons.

The list tries to find a balance between everything. Both high-end impact talent and overall depth are considered. I probably consider depth more than some other analysts. I've been working on this list for about a week and I could tinker with it forever, but it's time to get things moving, so here goes.

1) Toronto Blue Jays: Eight B+ prospects with ridiculous depth behind them.
2) San Diego Padres: Incredible depth after the winter trades pushes this system almost to the top.
3) Texas Rangers: Continues to churn out talent, with much more percolating at the lower levels. I do not give the Rangers farm system credit for Yu Darvish. They would rank number one if I gave them credit for Darvish, but in my mind that is unfair to the other teams: I see him as a major league free agent, not a prospect.
4) Seattle Mariners: Jesus Montero plus three elite pitching prospects and others who can improve.
5) St. Louis Cardinals: They don't get talked about as much as other teams, but they have a Grade A prospect in Shelby Miller and a lot of pitching depth behind him. I think this system is underrated.

6) Kansas City Royals
: They slipped from last year's top spot, showing the volatility of pitching prospects, but heavy investments in draft and foreign players should continue to show dividends.
7) Tampa Bay Rays: Impact depth behind Matt Moore has slipped but this is still a robust organization.
8) Atlanta Braves: Lots of pitching at the top, but they need more hitters.
9) Arizona Diamondbacks:
Another system with lots of pitching but not much hitting, even more extreme than Atlanta.
10) Oakland Athletics: Trades helped this system a lot, would have ranked much lower otherwise.

11) Boston Red Sox:
Large group of B- types who can improve. Hitting stronger than pitching at this point.
12) Pittsburgh Pirates: Heavy draft investments slowly-but-steadily raising the talent level in this system.
13) Colorado Rockies: Middle of the pack at this stage, two definite impact talents and a large group of C+ types who can improve.
14) Washington Nationals: The big trade with Oakland tore the top off this farm system. You still have Bryce Harper and some interesting players in the B- range. Would have ranked much higher without the trade.
15) New York Mets: Solid depth in pitching, especially at the top with Matt Harvey, Zack Wheeler, and Jeurys Familia.

16) New York Yankees:
You can make a case to rank them as high as 12 or 13. Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances are strong Grade B prospects for me and there is a nice balance between hitting and pitching.
17) Minnesota Twins:
Another middle of the pack organization, fairly balanced between hitting and pitching, some potential regulars with several solid role players.
18) Los Angeles Angels:
Not terrible, there is some depth behind Mike Trout but a lot of questions, too, and most of the tool-heavy bets in recent drafts haven't paid off as well as Trout has.
19) Baltimore Orioles: You have Machado and Bundy at the top but it falls off quickly after that.
20) Chicago Cubs: Another middle-of-the-pack system with a lot of B-/C+ type prospects. Could rank much higher next year if some of the lower-level guys pan out.

21) Cincinnati Reds:
Heart of this system torn out by Mat Latos trade but there is enough at the lower levels that I think they can recharge quickly.
22) Los Angeles Dodgers: Some intriguing pitching depth, much of it fairly close to the majors, but not much hitting.
23) Detroit Tigers: Thins out very quickly after Jacob Turner and Nick Castellanos.
24) Philadelphia Phillies: There is some interesting pitching but tools guys not developing as hoped.
25) Houston Astros: Gradually improving, and there are several players at the lower levels with a chance to develop. Could rank much higher a year from now.

26) San Francisco Giants
: This system has thinned out but is not hopeless. Pitching needs a recharge.
27) Cleveland Indians: Of all the teams ranked low, the Indians have the greatest chance to improve in the coming years. There is a lot of talent at the lower levels, but most of it is in the C+ or "Grade C with higher potential" category right now because it is so far away. It would not surprise me to see the Indians in the Top 10 by 2014.
28) Milwaukee Brewers: There is some talent on the pitching side but hitting looks thin.
29) Miami Marlins: Relatively even balance between hitting and pitching, but not a lot of impact coming up.
30) Chicago White Sox: You have two B+ pitching prospects in Addison Reed and Nestor Molina and some other raw materials for a decent bullpen. Hitting is a disaster. I like Tyler Saladino but I have huge doubts about their other hitting prospects.

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Thanks for this, John.

The uncertainty deserves your disclaimer, but it’s a very useful shorthand nonetheless.

by abbreviatedman on Jan 23, 2012 3:33 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Wow Mariners at 4.

I like it as I was a fan of their system before Montero and he helps a ton.

The things with the Mariners for me is they tend to move people fairly quickly and don’t tend to make a huge deal about service time ala Pineda, and thus it seems like in the future you will continue to see young players in the majors and a good spread of prospects through out the minors, keeping them in the range of 7-12 of farm system, but hopefully building a top organization.

Z seems to be doing well in this regard although there is still a ways to go.

by tarheels24 on Jan 23, 2012 3:38 PM EST reply actions  

True

I think they can be a sleeper this season.

I'm a proud fan of the Minnesota Twins and Dallas Cowboys!
"Life is precious and time is a key element. Let’s make every moment count and help those who have a greater need than our own." – Harmon Killebrew
I would like to see Dallas vs the Giants on Thanksgiving, Make it happen NFL!

Check out my eBay items.

by Jessy S on Jan 23, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

The Padres' system has come a long way

since the Kevin Towers days.

A pirate I was meant to be!
"You say you're nasty pirates,
scheming, thieving, bad bushwackers?
From what I've seen I tell you
You're not pirates, you're just slackers!"

by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 23, 2012 3:39 PM EST reply actions  

Yea

It’s great. Also great to see the Dodgers and Giants close to the bottom.

Hopefully some develop into their potential.

GO Friars

by mrbarneydangles on Jan 23, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah but trading away all the Major League talent will help you do that

Adrian Gonzalez, Matt Adams, Matt Latos, Heath Bell away now too..

However I was happy to see Byrnesie go get Carlos Quentin for cheap and the flip of LeBlanc for a competent catcher.
Maybe the team will be semi-competive

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jan 23, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Who are Matt Adams and Matt Latos?

A pirate I was meant to be!
"You say you're nasty pirates,
scheming, thieving, bad bushwackers?
From what I've seen I tell you
You're not pirates, you're just slackers!"

by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 23, 2012 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I wish we kept Patch Adams too

Fire Bud Black.
Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser. -- Vince Lombardi

by Sam (sdsuaztec4) on Jan 23, 2012 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry Mike Adams and Mat Latos

Maybe i’ll start calling him Mit Latos

Not that i’m a mitt romney guy cause i’m not, but Mitt is in the wrong profession (politics)

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jan 23, 2012 6:23 PM EST up reply actions  

For cheap?

Sure. Quentin’s also an awful fit for that team.

Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.

by Dan Strittmatter on Jan 24, 2012 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

ugh...

The Towers regime gets ripped (tho I think most of blame is directed towards Alderson and/or Fuson) for letting the minor league system deteriorate… That is simply not the case. Did Hoyer and cream to the top? Yes. Did Byrnes trade for additional prime pieces? Yes. Was the system barren when Towers (et al) left? Hardly.

-peter

by PeterF on Jan 23, 2012 7:50 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I'm not sure Towers deserves any credit for that.

My understanding was that he had draft responsibilities taken away from him, and the strides the system had made the last year or so before he left were due to people like Fuson and DePodesta. Towers botched the draft pretty bad when it was under his control.

A pirate I was meant to be!
"You say you're nasty pirates,
scheming, thieving, bad bushwackers?
From what I've seen I tell you
You're not pirates, you're just slackers!"

by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 24, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

not really...

His scouting director only scouted 3 top players since they had the 1st pick then nothing ‘till the 3rd round (2004; the Bush draft). When Towers discussed the team’s draft intentions with John Moores, Moores was unwilling to go over-slot for one of those 3. The Padres then scrambled to figure out what to do…

I’ll grant you that drafting was not Towers’ strong point but he didn’t leave the system empty either. He deserves some blame but also some credit…

-peter

by PeterF on Jan 24, 2012 1:27 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

The Padres blew nearly every first round pick while Towers was there

And I don’t think they had a home grown player reach the majors from the time Towers started as GM until Khalil Greene made it. The farm system was BARREN for years under Towers.

by Bigworm8 on Jan 24, 2012 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

...until...

Alderson, Fuson, & DePo got there…

-peter

by PeterF on Jan 24, 2012 8:58 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Which was kind of my point.

A pirate I was meant to be!
"You say you're nasty pirates,
scheming, thieving, bad bushwackers?
From what I've seen I tell you
You're not pirates, you're just slackers!"

by Zach (maestro876) on Jan 25, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Interesting rankings.

Thank you for posting this listing. Plenty of food for thought.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Jan 23, 2012 3:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

glad to see the cards in the top 5.

amazing how a system can go from bottom of the barrel to the top in a couple years.

by johnorpheus on Jan 23, 2012 3:44 PM EST reply actions  

Jeff Lunhow set up a good system in place

They did a good job of taking the best available college talent and mixing a few HS players.

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 23, 2012 3:57 PM EST up reply actions  

and latin america.

system isn’t anywhere close to top 5 w/o tavares and martinez. plus they agreed to pay big money to Wagner Mateo before his problems came out. looking like they were smart to void that deal.

by johnorpheus on Jan 23, 2012 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey John

Why don’t you have an option where you can buy the paperback and the e-book together? I am not spending $55+ on 2 separate purchase though but would like both.

by FlimtotheFlam on Jan 23, 2012 3:56 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

also

would you ever consider a discount on the older books?

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Jan 23, 2012 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

nevermind

looks like the older versions are 18 bucks so they are cheaper…

would you by chance consider discounts for buying in bulk?

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Jan 23, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

not trying to be an ass

so don’t take it like it, but you’ll probably get a better answer with an email. Just so it doesn’t get lost in the comments or if John doesnt read these

by lakersdodgersyankees4life on Jan 23, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Mariners / Montero

Where would the Mariners (approximately) rank without Jesus in the system?

I ask not so much because they didn’t develop him themselves, as because he will be getting 0 PAs in the minors from now on. Would be interesting to see where the system would have ranked pre-Pineda trade. (For that matter… how about those Yanks, where does Jesus move them back up to pre-trade?)

by KingCorran on Jan 23, 2012 4:04 PM EST reply actions  

Yankees would have to be top ten with Jesus, I would think

Probably only at 10 though. Without him, I personally have them at 15th, so right about where John has them.

by cookiedabookie on Jan 23, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually, forgot about Campos

So with Montero and w/o Campos, I’d say 12th

by cookiedabookie on Jan 23, 2012 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

A thought

It’s interesting the way the top 10 were built. Some (San Diego, Oakland) got much of their value from trades, some came primarily from extra picks, or international signings, or w/e. Just an interesting breakdown.

by ADLC on Jan 23, 2012 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

John, I have a question about Yu Darvish...

I’m having a hard time understanding why a player like Darvish doesn’t count towards a teams list of prospects. You say that you don’t want to give the Rangers credit for Darvish – that it isn’t fair to other teams. At another point, I believe that you said that they had done nothing to develop Darvish, so he shouldn’t count when considering the quality of their farm system.

However, you seem to have no similar qualms about putting a recent draftee – even one with no minor league experience – on a teams list, and counting them in such considerations. What if a 19 year old is signed? Is it Yu’s age? Would we remove a 26 year old college draftee just because he spent a few years out of the game first, and then stayed to graduate?

Darvish was scouted by the Rangers, and the Rangers determined that he merited the costs of signing him . This doesn’t seem different in kind from where a top 5 talent in the draft falls to 20-30 because of contract demands. One team decides that this player is worth the amount of money that it would take to sign him, and they subsequently draft and sign that player.

What if they signed Darvish, but decided to let him spend most of the year in the minors, and he retained eligibility. Would he then go from not counting at all for their farm system to being a grade A prospect for them? Did they make him a grade A prospect? No. They just signed him, and let him play. Any other criterion for demarcation between prospects and non-prospects seems arbitrary. The only reasonable line to draw is rookie eligibility and contractual status.

I am just having a hard time teasing out what exactly makes Yu Darvish unique in such a way as to not count on a teams farm system.

by turambar85 on Jan 23, 2012 4:32 PM EST reply actions  

Not to mention...

As KingCorran hinted at – teams get credited for players acquired in trades, regardless of whether or not they were acquired via prospects, major league talent, or a salary dump. Again, it just seems fuzzy…

by turambar85 on Jan 23, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the debate is...

A lot of people don’t feel that players with established careers in the Japanese league should be eligible for awards like the Rookie of the Year. While most writers have been able to look past it this debate rages every few years when a guy like Ichiru or Nomo is running away with the award. If a player, in this case Darvish, comes over as an established player, starts the season on the 25m roster and never gets a sniff of the minors is he ever really a prospect, or is he just a ML acquisition?

by ADLC on Jan 23, 2012 4:44 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

He was already a professional

You look at IFAs and they are coming from amateur ranks (except Cubans, but that’s a different bird altogether). The Japanese imports were in a highly competitive league (comperable to AA or AAA or AAAA) where they were developed and paid, then brought over here. It’d be like in the NBA if a top European player were signed to play. I’m with John on this one, but it makes the line fuzzy when it comes to the Leonis Martins and Aroldis Chapmans of the world.

by Rossome on Jan 23, 2012 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Aren’t all prospects John ranks professionals?

Does not seem to make sense that Seattle gets credit for Montero as a prospect, but Texas does not receive credit for Darvish.

by Teufelhunden on Jan 23, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Except that Seattle was only able to acquire Montero because they had produced both the players involved on their side of the deal.

by A Behemoth on Jan 23, 2012 7:51 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree that this is a legitimate distinction

However, John’s argument seems to have centered around the fact that they didn’t develop Darvish.

What if IFA’s were eligible for the draft? What is Darvish was posted at 23? He was the same type talent with some measure of pro success. However, the argument is often made that Japanese pro ball is so remedial in terms of major league comparison that you can’t assume that Japanese players will transfer with any degree of surety.

by turambar85 on Jan 23, 2012 9:28 PM EST up reply actions  

What if's don't count.

Bottom line is, this guy is not going to see a day with a minor league team unless he’s doing a rehab assignment.

You don’t get credit for having a guy in your minor leagues if he never plays in your minor leagues.

This life's hard, man, but it's harder if you're stupid.

- Jackie Brown

by Tackle Box on Jan 24, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

So..

If you sign a college closer at the end of the signing period, and he is expected to break camp with your team next April, then he shouldn’t be counted as a prospect in January? That is both silly and contrary to countervailing evidence.

by turambar85 on Jan 24, 2012 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Montero will never play a game, unless he's rehabbing

in Spokane.

Yes, the Mariners had the resources to acquire him, but the Rangers had the resources to acquire Darvish, whether those are players or money, it’s still acquisition.

"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11

by vfn on Jan 24, 2012 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Darvish cost $20 million per year

I think for that reason alone, he’s competing for dollars and mindshare out of the free agent budget, not prospects or development. The Rangers had to decide between getting Darvish and resigning Wilson at that price.

by bookbook on Jan 23, 2012 8:04 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

If teams had to make a similar decision

With a top flight draft pick – which teams like the Pirates have had to do – would that affect your view?

by turambar85 on Jan 23, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

the Pirates generally say that draft spending and ML payrolls come out of different pools

Take that with as many grains of salt as you wish.

However, draft spending really isn’t comparable to what Texas paid on Darvish. I think that even with their draft blowout this year, they’re spending more total $ on free agents this year.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 24, 2012 12:49 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

my last paragraph wasn't clear

Even with the Pirates draft blowout this year (Cole and Bell and a few other overslot signings), the Pirates themselves spent more total money on free agents this winter than they did on the draft. (You have to count both years of Barmes’s contract, but they’ll control their draftees for more than one year too.)

The point being that even at the high end, draft spending is really low compared to major-league FA spending. Darvish’s contract (even without the posting fee!) is way past the amount that teams spend on draft picks; Latin American signings are much more in line with that. Aroldis Chapman and Leonys Martin fall in between on level of spending (and Cespedes may well too), but the best Japanese players are getting paid like proven ML free agents instead of like unproven amateurs.

Not actually affiliated with whygavs.

by WHYG Zane Smith on Jan 24, 2012 12:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you think there is anything but shades of grey?

There are a lot of questions: do we include IFA’s, Japanese IFA’s, traded prospects, recent draft picks, etc. There isn’t an exact line you can draw.

John picked the line he wanted and went with it. I don’t see any compelling argument that you make that should change it. Yes, Texas scouted and signed Darvish. They also scout any other free agent they sign.

Typically a farm system is based on drafting and/or trading. Some teams draft very well, ie Tampa Bay and just recently Toronto. Some teams recycle talent, the Marlins used to be a prime example of this.

I just don’t see how a signing of Darvish is at all indicative of a farm system. He was paid, scouted, signed, and will be treated like a MLB sign.

by pedrophile on Jan 24, 2012 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

My take on the matter is that this is a list for the Top Farm Systems. Yu Darvish has not yet and is unlikely to ever play in the Texas farm so why should he be included in this list?

by Chewy59 on Jan 24, 2012 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Yu has never spent any time playing minor league ball, nor is he projected to do so

That is why I believe that he should not be considered to be part of the Rangers’ farm system.

__________________________________________________
"He who gets the best players usually wins" - Bobby Bowden

by Russ on Jan 25, 2012 7:21 AM EST up reply actions  

I feel so left out

Nonetheless, terrific work on these grades

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 23, 2012 4:34 PM EST reply actions  

It wasn't intentional

I wasn’t trying to diss you. I don’t see your fanpost.

by John Sickels on Jan 24, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

No worries

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 24, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Lets go Jays!!!!

The future is bright with this young collection of MLB and MiLB talent and the best GM in the business!

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 23, 2012 4:49 PM EST reply actions  

Lets wait for the best GM in the business to actually put some more wins on the field first.

by Nikk.m on Jan 23, 2012 4:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah a year ago, i was a critic to many of these Arms they now have...

I guess after Drabek, and McGuire who i both felt were a touch overrated i didn’t see them pumping out to many other high-end arms, but they certainly proved me wrong. Even if only 2-3 of Carreno, Syndergaard, Nicolino, Woejo, Sanchez, Hutchison pan out they’ll still be in a good spot.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jan 23, 2012 4:56 PM EST up reply actions  

The one who traded an MVP caliber catcher for an oft-injured setup man?

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Jan 23, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

In fairness to AA, moving Napster was also a vote of confidence in both JPA and TDA

Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof. -John Kenneth Galbraith, economist (1908-2006)

by chewbalka on Jan 23, 2012 5:46 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I understand why you would feel the need to trade him,

but I think we can all agree that the package was a bit light.

"I’d love to walk in and hug everybody every day, but that’s not critical to us winning." - Jon Daniels

by GhettoBear04 on Jan 23, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

I don’t think there’s much way to describe that trade as “good” (hindsight or not) but I’d be happy if that’s the only bad move he ever makes; which is his current pace

by benk on Jan 23, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Show me a GM who’s never lost a trade. I wouldn’t call Napoli an MVP caliber catcher either. Outlier season from a 30 year old catcher is pretty unpredictable. It should be noted that he acquired Napoli for Vernon Wells and his albatross. The Jays got a good bullpen arm for a throw in player in a salary dump. The #‘s Nap put up for Texas is really just gravy for them. For a little perspective JP Riccardi isn’t considered a God among GM’s and he picked up Jose Bautista for Robinson Diaz.

by AkiSchennberg on Jan 23, 2012 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I can't think of a trade Friedman has lost.

He has messed up some FA signings, but his trade track record is practically spotless.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 8:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Ummmmm......he traded Vernon Wells

Dealing away 4 years for $84M is the most remarkable thing I have ever seen in baseball.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 23, 2012 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Correction.

Tony Reagins traded for Vernon Wells.

Possibly the most baffling move I’ve ever seen in baseball.

by ThundaPC on Jan 23, 2012 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

And how the hell did that trade not leak to the media?

I am amazed that AA can always keep these huge trades quiet.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 24, 2012 7:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Really? ;)

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/would-you-trade.html

This is Friedman’s crowning achievement isn’t it? His biggest trade? And instead of hearing nothing, like the AA trade, the article states it’s the rumour that just won’t die.

I get you are a TB fan and you love Friedman. He is awesome. But when it comes to keeping a tight lid on things is it really close?

by pedrophile on Jan 24, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

You have got to be kidding me.

It wasn’t a rumor, it was speculation. Friedman never lets anything get out. I can’t believe I am even discussing this…..

by mr. maniac on Jan 24, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

And it was all speculation.

Look, I get that you are trying to, for some odd reason, prove your point based on ONE trade, but even this single one is not correct.

by mr. maniac on Jan 24, 2012 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

lol

It wasn’t all speculation. The last article was talking about the trade being a rumour in the GM meetings. That is a rumour not speculation.

I don’t know why you have to take this approach.

by pedrophile on Jan 24, 2012 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you not think Friedman is amazing?

Most teams have things leak out all the time. The Jays somehow kept the Morrow, Lawrie, Wells, Rasmus trades, Escobar trades all on the down low. Most front offices are not capable of doing that and teams that can (i.e. Jays, Rays) tend to work better in my opinion.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 24, 2012 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh, I agree there.

The Rays and the Jays are the best in that catergory. I’m just baffled by what pedrophile is saying.

by mr. maniac on Jan 24, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

you seemed to be putting Friedman on a pedestal

I have stated many times how great I think he is. But I also posted his biggest trade and that some were reporting on rumours circulating during the GM meetings about that trade. Maybe that circulation of rumours came from Smith, as he certainly mentioned several players he was targeting.

Anyways, it seemed like any disagreement about Friedman and you stop discussing and start arguing. Relax buddy.

by pedrophile on Jan 24, 2012 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

The rumour leaked?

Are you really denying it? Pedrophile posted the link and showed the rumour. Friedmann is a great GM but in this case you are wrong.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 24, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Regardless

I would take our two GMs over the other guys in the division, though Cashman does a good job too.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 24, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Brian Cashman is pretty money.

by Matt0330 on Jan 26, 2012 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

did you read the article on AA where he discussed why he keeps everything hush hush?

It was a good read. He mentioned trades that he saw die because other teams heard about it and interfered.

For example if it was known Seattle was going to trade Morrow cheaply a I’m sure a bunch of teams would jump in and there would be little chance Toronto gets him. Or say for example if Boston was making a big push at the deadline for a Halladay then instantly NY would be on the phone pushing for him – even if they are not serious. They would push to drive up the price so that Boston doesn’t get him.

by pedrophile on Jan 24, 2012 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

And got Kenny Williams to claim Alex Rios on waivers

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Jan 24, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

That was under JP Ricciardi's watch

Are you suggesting that his underling Alex Anthopolous performed some sort of Jedi mind trick on former Stanford product Kenny Williams though? Diabolical.

by Matt0330 on Jan 26, 2012 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

i was not aware of that

and even if AA wouldve been in charge, i just dont see how thats an impressive move on his part…bad contracts get placed on irrevocable waivers all the time

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 26, 2012 8:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Oh yeah

I agree. I don’t think Ricciardi et al even dreamed that Rios & his deal would be picked up in full.

by Matt0330 on Jan 26, 2012 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I would rather have AA and Friedman from Tampa

those guys are my types of GM’s.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Jan 23, 2012 6:42 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I like these three

Daniels
Friedman
AA

"We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct."
- Niels Bohr

Sorry, unauthorized hotlinking of copyrighted material not permitted.

by Frag on Jan 23, 2012 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Come on guys.

Looks at the rankings above. Everyone knows Kenny Williams is the premier GM in the game. The rest of these clowns are just jockeying for second position.

by polodude017 on Jan 24, 2012 12:58 PM EST up reply actions  

before anyone outs AA on a pedestal,

you must remember that he traded Mike Napoli for Frank Francisco.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 25, 2012 6:38 AM EST up reply actions  

OMG! AA made a bad trade, FIRE HIM!

Daniels once traded A-Gon, Termel Sledge and Chris Young
For Adam Eaton, Akinori Otsuka and a MiL Catcher.

Considered one of the worst trades in Texas history.

And um… Friedman hasn’t made any bad trades that I could find.

I’m not saying AA is a god among GMs. He’s not, but one bad trade? Really?

In honor of the Jays 2nd Baseman who played with fire in more ways than one.

by Damaso's Burnt Shirt on Jan 25, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

He hasn't had near as many big trades as some of the other guys

Alex A has made some unbelievable deals in just over 2 years including (1) the theft of Yunel Escobar, (2) buh bye Vernon Wells, (3) Rasmus for middle relievers, (4) Morrow for League, (5) cost-controlled Save Master Sergio Santos, (6) Lawrie for Marcum.

I can’t remember the last time I saw a GM make so many great trades in such a short period of time. Friedman is great but most of his trades are pretty minor deals.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 25, 2012 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

that 'pretty minor' zobrist deal....

has already returned them like $75 million in surplus value with many more years to come

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 25, 2012 9:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd appreciate it if you don't not quote me out of context

I stated “MOST of his trades are pretty minor deals.” This is a fact so please don’t try to spin my words.

He has only made 2 really big deals in getting Zobrist and Garza. I am not saying he isn’t a good GM; I think he is #2 in the business which is a huge compliment. I am just stating he Alex A has used the trade market better than any other GM over the last few years.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 25, 2012 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

most of every gms deals are very minor

even st. anthropolous

that napoli trade is a huge loss on AA’s ledger

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 25, 2012 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Most of AA's deals are minor?

Really? You cannot be serious when you look at the names he has acquired.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 25, 2012 10:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i think you have to admit

that if you approach trades as simply gambles where you sometimes lose and sometimes win, then AA’s deals have returned less overall than Friedman’s

again, i don’t mean to say AA’s a bad GM. he’s a really good GM in my opinion, and probably who i’d have second behind Friedman.

i think though, that Friedman’s record is just insane. just from a really really simple measure, Friedman has been able to make the playoffs in i believe three out of his six years as GM, with one of the cheapest rosters in baseball, in a division featuring the Yankees and Red Sox.

AA has been in baseball for two years, and he’s done a lot of great things. the Blue Jays definitely seem to be heading in the right direction. and the new playoff structure can only help. it also took Friedman two years to build up the Rays. but i want to see AA make it to the postseason before I really feel comfortable crowning him as the best GM in baseball.

by blue bulldog on Jan 26, 2012 12:40 AM EST up reply actions  

are you kidding me?

Trading a 20+ million dollar albotross like Wells, dumping Rios carcass off on Chicago, getting Lawrie for a solid starter, getting Yunel for an old Gonzalez, signing Bautista to that extension, etc.

You don’t see those as having as much value as the trades Friedman has made?

Friedman has been very careful and very smart. But his trades in the last 2 years fall epically short of what AA has done.

by pedrophile on Jan 26, 2012 1:31 AM EST up reply actions  

almost every GM in baseball wouldve placed rios on irrevocable waivers...

he gets credit for kenny williams being an idiot?

You don’t see those as having as much value as the trades Friedman has made?

the lawrie move might/probably will be as valuable as the zobrist deal/extension was for friedman.

the wells deal looks a lot less awesome when you consider that he basically gave away napoli, though still impressive

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 26, 2012 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

'..the (Brett L)awrie move might/probably will be as valuable as the (Ben Z)obrist deal/extension was for (Andy F)riedman.'

There’s got to be an argument against misusing ‘advanced’ statistics, etc in here somewhere. Oy gevalt.

by Matt0330 on Jan 26, 2012 8:25 AM EST up reply actions  

napoli doesnt affect the wells deal

If AA dumped Wells and got last season out of Napoli that would have been the deal of the century. But he didn’t. He moved Napoli for nothing.

So “all” he did was dump a $23 million per year albatross on Anaheim. That is a huge deal.

And you are forgetting the Yunel deal as well as the Santos deal getting a solid closer under cheap team control for a B prospect.

by pedrophile on Jan 26, 2012 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

It was a 3 way deal essentially

The Jays acquired Jackson for Stewart and Fraser and immediately flipped him to the Cardinals.

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 26, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions  

I guess trading EJax for Joyce

in a year they knew Price was starting the year in the minors for service time and didn’t have depth + missed the playoffs isn’t a bad trade?

Joyce did have a couple decent months in 2011. And it might become a decent trade. But that deal helped torpedo their season.

by pedrophile on Jan 26, 2012 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I didn't say he's hasn't done a good job so far,

but are some people going gaga over AA simply for finding a taker for Vernon Wells?

I mean, he did a nice job accumulating draft picks in the past 2 drafts but I’m not particularly impressed with what he’s done this winter to improve the Jays – it’s been all about the pen up there. And that seems to be a recurring theme for him. Meanwhile they haven’t addressed their rotation or frankly, their defensive issues at all. They were thought to have money to spend this winter and they haven’t except for Darrin Oliver and Francisco Cordero.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 26, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

really?

The Vernon Wells trade was huge but you seem to give only grudging credit because Napoli was flipped in that deal. Even without Napoli it was a great deal.

You ignore the Yunel trade, the Morrow trade, the Bautista extension that was maligned at the time, the Lawrie trade, the Santos trade. You even attempted to imply the Jays traded EJax when it was a 3-way trade, and then when corrected tried to imply Rasmus sucks and so you were not wrong anyways.

You don’t like us giving credit to AA. We get it.

by pedrophile on Jan 26, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

AA made a big trade during the season and made another in the offseason getting Santos.

He also tried to make other trades but the word on the street was other teams were not interested in the prospects that are far away. AA will have to wait for those prospects to develop a bit.

He is willing to move prospects to help the team but can’t move the lower prospects. Can you fault him for holding onto his higher level prospects like D’Arnaud?

by pedrophile on Jan 26, 2012 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

you are being extremely sensitive

If you read what I said at the beginning, I said that before we put AA up on a pedestal we shouldn’t forget about the Napoli for FF trade.

I’ve been an early advocate of AA’s. But just listing a bunch of deals doesn’t mean they will all work out in TOR’s favor. Yes, I do like the Lawrie deal a lot. And sure getting Wells off the payroll was a coup. That said, it was just a salary dump. And I think I’m asking a legit question when I say, what have the Jays done with that salary relief?

At what point do the Jays actually try and compete in the AL East? Jose Bautista is going to be on the wrong side if his peak soon.

I give AA a lot of credit for making some bold moves and accumulating draft picks, but at some point they are going to have to make a real attempt at being relevant in their own division, no?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 26, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

of course they will

and I’m sure they will spend. My guess is they want a consolidation year. The Wells trade is more than a dump, it gives them the ability to do a lot more going forward. They haven’t spent the money yet, I expect that will come soon.

by pedrophile on Jan 26, 2012 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

They'll be relevant pretty soon

because of those moves.

And you can’t grade a GM just based on results, it’s the process that matters. You can’t say so and so is great because his bets paid off, you say he’s great because of the quality of his bets. How much more can you ask of a GM than to (quickly) build perhaps the top minor league system in baseball, deal away burdensome salaries and be in position to have a lot of high quality talent graduate to the minors in a concentrated time window?

Great baseball teams still lose 60+ games, and great GMs still make mistakes and have deals that don’t work out.

Some see a glass half empty, some a glass half full. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be. - George Carlin

by t ball on Jan 28, 2012 7:59 AM EST up reply actions  

and GMs like

Amaro and Sabean laugh at the notion that process trumps results and rings.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 29, 2012 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Would be great to see what AA or Friedman could do

with the budgets good GM’s like Daniels or especially Cashman have.
Life also got tougher for both AA and AF with the new CBA.

by JayTeam on Jan 23, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions  

The Rangers budget has gone up since new ownership

but Daniels lead the Rangers to their first world series on a MUCH smaller budget than AA works with… and that was while simultaneously building the best farm system in the league.

"The Rangers system just happens to be stupid with depth." - Jason Parks, 7/14/11
2011-07-25 17:44:05 - benjihana: Ahh my backdoor!!!
"It appears I made a mistake. I did not know what pegged meant" - Schultzy, 11/13/11

by vfn on Jan 23, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

If you wanted to compare apples to apples

then you would have to look at the talent base they both had with the budget. While AA started with a higher budget it included players like Vernon Wells. Their budget significantly dropped as they shed bad contracts.

On the other hand Daniels walked into a situation with a very good talent base and no albatross contracts as well as a very robust farm system.

Trying to imply AA had a bigger budget and achieved less is very disingenous at best.

by pedrophile on Jan 24, 2012 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

in fact

didn’t Daniels sign A-Rod to that albatross contract?

by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 2:15 PM EST up reply actions  

are you kidding?

daniels wasnt hired for like 6 years after that contract

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 24, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

sorry

my bad. for some reason i remembered one of Daniels’ early moves turning out really badly, and thought it was A-Rod’s contract

the move that i was thinking of was the Adam Eaton trade, giving up AGon and Chris Young

by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

if Friedman actually had a budget

that just wouldn’t be fair

you need to handicap him somehow

by blue bulldog on Jan 23, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know that that's actually as easy to speculate on as you make it sound.

His methods would obviously change A LOT if he had a bigger budget to work with. I don’t know that it’s a given that he would be obviously better with more money, especially considering the higher expectations that would certainly come with it.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Friedman and I’m a big admirer of the Rays organization, I just don’t think it’s as simple as you make it sound.

by polodude017 on Jan 24, 2012 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

obviously there are diminishing marginal returns

on increasing salary

but i think you’re kidding yourself if you don’t think Friedman’s Rays would be even better with more money

more money is always better than less money. unless you’re an idiot and somehow more money actually makes you make more negative EV decisions. but Friedman has given no indication that he’s that type of person, and if anything, his background prior to being a GM makes him less likely to make those types of decisions.

by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Just saying I don’t think it’s fair to say “if Friedman had a budget that just wouldn’t be fair”. He’s a great GM, but I think there’s plenty of teams who would still be able to compete against them.

And like you said, “unless you’re an idiot and somehow more money actually makes you make more negative EV decisions”. While I think you were trying to make the the point that that wouldn’t happen, I think it’s entirely possible that he would make some bad decisions that he wouldn’t have otherwise made. For instance, maybe he locks up BJ Upton long-term, which could easily end up being a mistake. Just saying, I don’t think it’s totally cut and dry.

by polodude017 on Jan 24, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Friedman destroys those guys

Secretary of WAR and Defense of the Tyler Greene Fanclub.

by vivaelpujols on Jan 24, 2012 2:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Lackey, Crawford, Matsuzaka

Theo’s a top GM?

In his defense, though, Ben Cherington is making him look much more incredible than he really is.

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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 24, 2012 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

crawford

isn’t fair

it was not a widely criticized move at the time, and still has a shot at turning out okay

lackey was criticized at the time, and has turned out badly. not sure about dice-k.

by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 10:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Awesome Job John

I’m the guy who will now expect one of these fine publications every season now ;)

I kid, but great job really looking forward to this now in my bookmark throughtout the season and to compare for the next few seasons as well.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/photo-logan-morrison-bryan-petersen-share-tub-drink-043548597.html

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jan 23, 2012 4:51 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed

Great work breeds great expectations, John. :)

by cookiedabookie on Jan 23, 2012 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Curious

Where would the Nationals have ranked with Cole, Peacock, Milone, and Norris?

by Jaumiusk on Jan 23, 2012 5:02 PM EST reply actions  

Who cares

They added Gio Gonzalez & extended him. Farm rankings are beyond nebulous & they actually improved their major league product now & in the near future.

If offered the choice of one of GIo Gonzalez or a ‘higher ranked’ farm system, what’s the conundrum?

by Matt0330 on Jan 24, 2012 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm encouraged by the Nationals' system ranking in the top 50% even after the Gonzalez deal

Even though this is the first ranking for Sickels, Law and other rankings had the Nationals between #13 and #19 last year. Roughly, I guess you could say that the loss of the “Nat Gio Four” was offset by a combination of the top four of the 2011 draft class (Rendon, Meyer, Goodwin, Purke) and positive seasons by several of the team’s minor leaguers (Lombardozzi and Hood, among others).

by d_c_guy on Jan 23, 2012 5:11 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting stuff, thanks for all of your hard work his offseason, John!

The list seems about right to me. I do think you have the Giants too low by about 3 spots. You correctly note that they’re weak in pitching, but I think that the “thin” diescription is inaccurate. I would say that bottom-heavy is a better descriptor. I think that the pitching raw material is there, it just needs another year to 18 months to become obvious. I also think that you don’t give enough credit to the Giants proven ability to develop pitching talent over at least the last 8 years. Dick Tidrow and company have a proven track record and I think they’ll also be able to develop several pitching gems out of the current crop of raw talent. I’d bet anybody right now that the Giants will get more major league value out of their current crop of minor league pitchers in the next 10 years than at least 9 of the other teams get out of thier current crop.

"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner

by Fla-Giant on Jan 23, 2012 6:58 PM EST reply actions  

Pirates at 12

I’ll take it all day, especially because odds are they will improve next year with basically no expected graduates from their top 20. Off the top of my head, Jeff Locke will probably graduate and that’s the only guarantee in the top 20 and he’s only #11.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jan 23, 2012 7:28 PM EST reply actions  

but you know what the Yizers are saying

SALE THE TEAM

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
"Clemson should've stopped turning the ball over" Dana Holgorsen when asked about running up the score in the Orange Bowl

by WVPiratesfan on Jan 24, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I really liked it.

I think your Ray’s ranking was 100% fair. John, what the heck was Callis saying when he said the Rays don’t have any depth? Really? He said he didn’t mean impact depth but depth in general.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 8:31 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah, that was kind of bogus.

2011 alone, seriously.

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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 23, 2012 8:33 PM EST up reply actions  

With all of the high draft picks from 2011

how highly might the Rays rank a year from now? I realize they’re still good at 7, but could they be top 5 a year from now with good seasons from some of their picks from last year? Top 3?

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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 23, 2012 8:32 PM EST reply actions  

YU: Rookie or Vet?

Have never, ever understood the idea of considering Japanese players as anything but 100% MLB rookies. If they are not considered rookies when they come over, then we should count their Japanese stats in our record books.

Isn’t it that simple?

by Fanthead on Jan 23, 2012 9:55 PM EST reply actions  

How could a guy who never played an inning in a team's farm system

possibly tell you anything about that system’s strength? “Rookie-to-be” is not the same thing as “minor-league prospect.”

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 23, 2012 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Well...

In all fairness, either Sickels or another prospect source said the same thing about Darvish; namely, that he doesn’t say anything about the Rangers farm system since they didn’t develop him. It isn’t just StanTheManFan that says this.

by turambar85 on Jan 24, 2012 12:32 AM EST up reply actions  

it was the 'how could a guy who never played an inning the a team's farm system....'

sickels and every other prospect guru ranks those guys and most of them rank some very highly

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 24, 2012 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes...

That’s my point. Sickels ranks draftees that have never payed an inning, and doesn’t hold this against them. But, he does not rank IFA’s, ostensibly because their not having played an inning means that they don’t reflect on that organization.

So, my point is that, while the claim itself, as made by Stan, came off poorly, it has a grain of truth. There is an inconsistency, or a possible inconsistency, in the reasons given for ranking and abstaining from ranking.

by turambar85 on Jan 24, 2012 3:19 AM EST up reply actions  

it really doesnt matter to me what john does with regards to these guys....

however, i do think it should be uniform. if a guy played professional baseball in japan, whether he’s an established star like darvish or a 21 year old with a couple of years experience in japan, they should be treated similarly…same thing with cubans

Fire Everyone

by billybeingbilly on Jan 24, 2012 3:22 AM EST up reply actions  

most draftees

don’t have five years of experience against competition which is better than Triple-A and almost as good as the majors.

by John Sickels on Jan 24, 2012 8:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Buf guys likt Iona, Sanio, Guzman and

Mateo got ranked as international FA signings…..

To me, it reallly doesn’t matter… That being said the LA market kills that Sickel’s .does not rank IFAs. He has, they were just Cs or C+s. Yu’s much higher value, an A, would.introduce much more variation to the rankings. If you havent noticed yet Sickels is risk adverse and this action fits with his normal behavior….

JD’s like, "you want some f*&#ing pitching? Here’s all the pitching you can stand. Now choke on it, b*#&hes!"- RCCook

LSB: "Oh s#*t, JD. You crazy!"

by laxtonto on Jan 24, 2012 9:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, but no it doesnt

John does rank Darvish and considers him a rookie and believes he should have a shot at the rookie of the year award.

What he doesn’t do is include him here for the discussion of farm strength. Darvish is scouted by MLB scouts, he will not be developed in the farm system, he will not be coached in the farm system, he will not play games in the farm system.

I’m not sure why it’s hard to see that he is a rookie but doesn’t reflect the farm system?

Anyways, you have your opinion. Others have theirs and I guess we won’t agree.

by pedrophile on Jan 24, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

SF Giants

Agree with the comment that pitching needs recharge. Catching depth is encouraging.

by wilriv21 on Jan 23, 2012 10:21 PM EST reply actions  

It might be interesting to see how these rankings correlate

with average draft position for the last five years. I’d expect a reasonably strong positive correlation. However, it’s not obvious to me, without breaking out a spreadsheet, that there actually is one.

"That’s what a baseball player does: he uses the glove half of the time." -- Rick Horton regarding the DH.

by StanTheManFan on Jan 23, 2012 11:20 PM EST reply actions  

just glancing at it

i don’t think the correlation is all that strong

then again, the best way to improve the farm is through the draft and trades, and trades are probably somewhat correlated with draft position, because the worse your team is, the more likely you are to trade veterans for prospects

by blue bulldog on Jan 24, 2012 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Really like the A's ranking

i expect to see them mostly in the 11-14 range on average

Snoochies

by guessatomo on Jan 24, 2012 12:01 AM EST reply actions  

Love seeing the A's at 10

and with Balfour, Suzuki, Crisp, Fuentes, Reddick, McCarthy, Anderson, Braden & Allen all trade bait and likely to be gone by opening day 2014 if they stay healthy, Beane could easily have a top 3 farm.

by Waiver Claim on Jan 24, 2012 9:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed, but i think all but reddick will be gone by opening day 2013

and add to that, they have 5 picks in the first three rounds (1, 1s, 2), they’re gonna have a very deep farm system

Snoochies

by guessatomo on Jan 25, 2012 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Anderson wont be traded I think.

He’s on target for August, trading him after less than 30 starts since TJ would be selling low. I think he stays on the 2013 team til the deadline at the earliest and until the 2014 at the latest…unless he gets hurt again.

He needs 30 consecutive starts to regain full value again.

by Waiver Claim on Jan 29, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

StL (5th) vs. KC (6th)

John,

I was a little miffed to see the other side of the state which includes the self proclaimed “best morans fans in baseball™” ranked ahead of the my Royals. I’ve watched many prospects from both sides and feel KC prospects will end up doing better in the long run.

I was curious as to how StL ended up one slot above KC?

Thanks.

by 306008 on Jan 24, 2012 9:08 AM EST reply actions  

I'm not expert here, but...

It’s pretty clear looking at Sickels top 20 lists. Cardinals have an A prospect at top, followed by four B+ guys, then six B’s. He has the Royals with Myers, an A-, at the top, and then three B+, one B, and then into the B- prospects.

Didn’t the Royals have the consensus number one system in all of baseball last year and then had a bunch of graduates? And they are still the sixth best according to Sickels? I don’t know how serious your comment was, if it was just good-natured joking around and I missed then my bad… but is there something to actually complain about here?

"I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missoura!"

by mattybobo on Jan 24, 2012 9:23 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Don't think he was really complaining.

Just asking a question.

I personally feel the Royals system is better but with Lamb getting hurt, Monty and Dwyer not having good years i can understand, and as Sickels stated below he just likes them better.

With the extremely high amount of graduations including about half of our top 10 i will take arguably top 5 any day of the week.

by vic1124 on Jan 25, 2012 4:05 AM EST up reply actions  

hahaha

rec

2015 St. Louis Rotation-- Wainwright, Garcia, Miller, Martinez, Rosenthal...towels please

by VolsnCards5 on Jan 24, 2012 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

LOL

Awesome John!

Big Sexy

Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey

by King Billy Royal on Jan 25, 2012 12:25 AM EST up reply actions  

YU: Rookie or Vet, 2?

Hey, Aesop, in saying that if Yu isn’t considered a rookie we should, by logical extension, start including Japanese stats in MLB Record Books, I wasn’t referring to anything John Sickels said, which your response seems to indicate you believe:

“He’s not saying he isn’t a rookie.”

Some of you guys are so touchy about people disagreeing with Sickels—I say John’s brain can defend itself quite well—but I wasn’t even doing that. I was referring to this general view, as expressed by other poster:

“A lot of people don’t feel that players with established careers in the Japanese league should be eligible for awards like the Rookie of the Year.”

Sorry. Thought that was fairly obvious.

by Fanthead on Jan 24, 2012 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

The question was about whether the Rangers

Deserve credit for having him in the farm system, not whether or not he was a rookie. Apology accepted

by Aesop on Jan 25, 2012 1:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Darvish

I fail to see why the thing with Darvish is a big deal.

I made my opinion clear. If you want to count him as a prospect and give the Rangers credit for signing and developing him, move them up to 1. If you don’t, they rank 3.

It’s that simple.

by John Sickels on Jan 24, 2012 3:06 PM EST reply actions   4 recs

I'm not making a big deal about it, personally

But, was just asking about the justification. It just seemed incompatible with other practices.

by turambar85 on Jan 24, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

You are making a big deal.

This is your 8th post on this thread and every one has to do with Darvish’s exclusion. Your obsessive compulsiveness on this topic may strike some as annoying.

by JayTeam on Jan 25, 2012 12:13 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Wow.

Grow up. It’s an thread, on the internet. 8 posts, and most of which are responding to other people, and their responses to me. It’s a legitimate methodological question.

by turambar85 on Jan 25, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Nine

Sorry, can’t grow up, only sideways.

John stated in his post he considered Darvish a major league free agent, not a prospect. It’s his right, because it’s his site.

by JayTeam on Jan 25, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok

Nobody is arguing with rights. I’m arguing reasons. I was comparing reasons given for this decision with inconsistent application with non-IFA players. Inconsistency in itself isn’t the gravest sin on can commit, and I wasn’t saying that it damned his lists. I was just pointing out something of very mild importance. The internet isn’t set aside for solely serious and important arguments…

by turambar85 on Jan 26, 2012 2:57 AM EST up reply actions  

I expect the Cubs to take a big leap after next year.

This year’s draft is going to be even bigger than last year’s draft IMO…Gausman ftw?

by SenorGato on Jan 25, 2012 4:01 AM EST reply actions  

Agreed

I think #20 is a bit low for them, especially wih Rizzo in the system now. I expected them to be around the low teens.

@jackweiland on Twitter
Email: JackWeiland@gmail.com

by jackweiland on Jan 25, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

John

how much do you value guys like Cespedes, Soler and Concepcion.

Like if the Rangers sign Soler, does that put them as the #1 system?

"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington

by FirebatM3 on Jan 25, 2012 6:52 PM EST reply actions  

A challenging ranking

Might be to grade each team on an opportunity-adjusted basis. Ergo, the Rays get docked some level of credit for having eleventy-billion first round picks. The Nationals and Mariners get docked for having teams so bad they always get top picks. The A’s get docked for the fact that all their top prospects are trade acquisitions where they gave up comparable but older talent, etc. Etc. In an opportunity-neutral environment, the Rays would still look good as would the Rangers, but I think the Jays #1 status would be cemented.

by bookbook on Jan 28, 2012 10:39 PM EST reply actions  


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