Dylan Bundy tells Pirates, Royals not to draft him
by deezle on May 20, 2011 9:29 AM EDT
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Bundy has reportedly told the Pirates and Royals not to draft him because he does not want his long toss program altered.
Seattle, Arizona, and Washington are all advocates of long toss.
This is a pretty interesting development IMO, and I am curious to see thoughts on this. Should the Pirates and Royals become more flexible on pitcher development? What are the real concerns with long toss? Is there evidence to support the concerns?
Another part I don't quite understand is that Royals pitchers Mike Montgomery and John Lamb both have testimonials on Jaeger's long toss website. I know the Royals and Montgomery have butted heads in the past about his long toss, so I am not sure if they have relented, if he does it in the offseason, or if he has abandoned it.
FYI Trevor Bauer is also a noted long tosser.
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Should the Pirates and Royals become more flexible on pitcher development?
YES! A lot of teams try to mold the pitcher into their pre-set program, the Pirates and Royals have been the most notorious. Quite a few teams set an upper bound for long tossing at 120 feet. I have seen nothing but good reports on Jaeger’s long toss program and I like pitchers that do it.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
The Pirates don’t limit their pitchers to just 120 feet. They take it on a case by case basis. Tim Williams of Pirates Prospects interviewed Jim Benedict of the Pirates and they said they had guys doing different things if they felt it benefitted the pitcher.
http://www.piratesprospects.com/2011/05/dylan-bundy-doesnt-want-to-be-a-pirate.html
by Cainyoudigit on May 20, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Great link
I think they’re overstating things to avoid certain teams, but that doesn’t diminish how intriguing this is.
"Hosmer right in between Carter and Alvarez…. what is this list based on? height?" -- okteds, visionary (1/28/10)
Jeez
First the guy asks for a $30MM bonus, and now is asking teams NOT to draft him. He might go undrafted..lol
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
Since any reasonable person knows this is a ploy...
why would teams be deterred from drafting him, unless they don’t plan to pay $4-8M in a signing bonus?
I applaud the kid for his principles and foresight (if that is a genuine concern for his development), but is Bundy really prepared to turn down multiple millions, the prestige of being a #1 overall pick, and go to college, only to wait 2-3 more years to be drafted?
I don’t discount the issue he’s concerned with, and think that more teams should look to incorporate long-toss programs, but would Bundy really hold firm when presented with top-tier money? If the answer is ‘no’ then draft him and call his bluff (that may sound renegade but I only mean to be direct). Sounds like B.J. Upton all over again…
And get into a fight with your #1 pick the moment he signs?
If Bundy doesn’t want to adopt the Pirates style of pitching (and for good reason), I don’t think the Pirates will consider him a realistic option. I think that’s why they’ve targeted raw HS pitchers in the last few drafts, so they can mold them into what they think is the way to pitch. Taking Bundy wouldn’t be in either of their best interest.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
I don't know....I think this is different than money
If Bundy (and Bauer for that matter) truly believe that long toss is hugely beneficial for their success, and their stuff/command/velo would decrease due to no long practicing long toss, then I can see them not signing with a team that tells them they can no longer utilize it.
This isn’t just playing hardball to get more money.
I didn't think it was about getting more money...
Maybe I’m just old school, but players being able to ‘dictate’ who picks them (using whatever tactic) seems a little underhanded to me. Just my personal opinion. I suppose one could counter-argue that teams have used their own tactics over the years to try and keep prices down, so this could be their come-uppance.
The draft was created to keep the price down for the rich owners; MLB is a cartel
If Bundy were born in Latin America, he’d have his choice of teams. It’s another argument, but why exactly shouldn’t he be given that choice?
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
That what I was insinuating in my second post...
And (ot) it is another argument, one where I actually happen to agree with you. My point here is that given the system that is currently in place, it just doesn’t seem right.
That's a common myth but very incorrect
As you can see from the link below the wealthy and successful teams didn’t want a draft. They were getting all the top young players.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_Draft
Nowadays the only teams hurting from the draft are teams that have financial problems. If a team signs a lot of slot or singable guys most times we later find out the real reason behind it. Teams that borrow money behind the scenes from MLB are not allowed to go over slot.
Of course
I meant as a class the wealthy owners are the only beneficiaries of the draft as it artificially suppresses the price of talent.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
That makes a lot more sense, although I still have a disagreement over that
How different is it from franchises that set pay scales?
Musicians are in effect their own company, creating their own product.
Movie stars audition for contracts that are per project.
Sports players have annual contracts and have a boss. If you were a businessman and you did the same thing the IRS would investigate your company as it’s not a true contract but a job.
Not out of the top 5 or 6, IMO.
He’s fantastic. The money demand is just posturing. As for the long toss… I don’t understand why any team takes a long toss kid and tries to change him. But then, I’m a big long toss guy.
Probably true.
I would guess the drop for Archie Bradley will be much more dramatic if these asking prices continue.
Ignore the asking price,
In the article, they even mention that it’s a ploy:
One executive asked the Bundy camp whether its demand for a six-year, $30 million major league contract – nearly twice what Stephen Strasburg(notes) received two years ago – was to scare teams off. The answer was yes.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
Yes
I know it’s a ploy. Asking for those contracts is insane. But, It’s not out of the question for them to succeed in their purpose, which, as you said, is to scare off some teams.
He's too talented to drop out of the top 10
And I’d say it’s unlikely he drops out of the top 5. It may scare a team that isn’t willing to go much over slot off, but it shouldn’t have a huge impact. If he were a bit lesser of a prospect, he could go Wil Myers on us, but that’s just not the case.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
Bradley finished strong enough to still be a lock for the first round no matter his demand, I think
I mean, he’s a better prospect than Zach Lee was a year ago.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
Mayo calls BS on this entire story
http://minors.mlblogs.com/2011/05/20/draft-dylan-bundy-and-his-throwing-program/
I’m not sure what to think right now.
this too
http://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/71655134534438912
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
crazy
That his adviser explicitly mentions the Royals, but not the Pirates. And I mean “crazy” as in “unbelievable that the Pirates are so hopeless and strict and scary that a top talent would love to be a part of any team except them.” As a Pirate fan, I find that really sad.
And hilarious at the same time
And really, it’s hard to blame him.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
you can't blame him
That’s what’s so sad for Pirate fans.
to be fair
Passan may have asked specifically about the Royals. he does have KC ties.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
more evidence to the contrary
Dejan Kovacevic reports that the original Passan article is untrue, at least insofar as it applies to the Pirates.
The implication is that his source is with the Pirates, though, so it’s probably to be taken with a grain of salt.
Fascinating article by Greg Schaum
http://www.pinetarpress.com/?p=7462
Details how top college and HS programs are using long toss, and thus most top pitching prospects are also long toss disciples.
It will be interesting to see where this goes.
skeptical
He says there’s “A lot of good science and hard data” behind new conditioning programs, but I’ve never seen any hard data. I’d like to see some better proof that long toss works before I believe that it’s the panacea it’s made out to be. (And Nolan Ryan’s regime doesn’t seem to have prevented Tanner Scheppers from getting hurt.)
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 21, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
What?
Tanner Scheppers was an injury waiting to happen and it’s his back that has been the issue rather than his shoulder.
Hard data would be impossible to get. It would all be circumstantial and on a case by case basis. The bottom line is that the players that use the regimen swear by it and changing regimens and/or deliveries often has a negative impact. If you select someone that uses it, why in the hell would you immediately change the thing that made him what he is?
And players will still get injured. There is nothing you can do to prevent that.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
“Hard data would be impossible to get. It would all be circumstantial and on a case by case basis.”
If hard data is impossible to get, then Schaum shouldn’t have said it was there. And if all you have is anecdotes; then Scheppers is an anecdote on the other side of the ledger; he went to a team that emphasized the long toss, tried to use long toss in his rehab this year, and it didn’t help. Sure there’s nothing you can do to prevent injury, but you could try to study whether long toss affects injury rates. In all fields of knowledge, it should send up a danger signal when people don’t want to study the effectiveness of a certain approach.
I don’t think you should change a player’s training program for no reason, but I’m also not impressed by athletes’ testimonials. A lot of ballplayers swear by their lucky underwear, too. Which may work, but it doesn’t tell you anything about the inherent properties of the lucky underwear.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 21, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
"Scheppers is an anecdote on the other side"
Yeah, a damaged goods draftee is convincing evidence for or against anything. The reason this is difficult to track is because you have pitchers who’ve been doing it since their teens, others who are introduced to it in college, others who embrace it even later in their pro career. And who says “people don’t want to study the effectiveness of a certain approach.” You’re mistaking baseball’s notorious aversion to change the novelty with secret knowledge.
by blackoutyears on May 21, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Who said that they didn't want to study it?
The only thing I said was that the fact we’re dealing with individuals limits the utility of any study. This would go for any kind of workout regimen or mechanical aspect of a delivery. These aren’t uniform events where we can compare to a baseline. I see no reason to distrust the player when he says it gives him more arm strength and allows him to comfortably throw more pitches. Hell, even if it’s more of a mental thing than physical, that’s still a positive.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
Those are reasonable points, but the claims I usually see from long-toss advocates go way beyond that. Look at that Schaum puff piece, or the Jonah Keri piece on long toss. The long toss advocates there aren’t saying “If players are brought up on long toss, you should keep them in their comfort zones”; they’re saying that long toss will reduce injuries, build up arm strength, and vacuum your carpet while you’re at the ballpark. I don’t think that’s been supported.
WTM at Bucs Dugout has an argument that the teams that are best known for long toss aren’t actually that great at developing pitchers. And as far as the Rangers go, when two of their top three pitching prospects from 2010 hit the DL in 2011, and the one that comes back has a 12/8 BB/K from the bullpen, maybe it’s a little premature to think that they’ve found the solution to how to train pitchers.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 21, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Scheppers was an injury waiting to happen
He is in AZ trying to strengthen his core before he ends up with a shoulder injury from altered mechanics.
Feliz still has the same velocity as before. They said when he went on the DL that he could have still pitched, but they were trying to be cautious in the early part of the season. He has lost all command of his FB and practically abandoned his other pitches. He blamed stretching out as a starter before later retracting his statement.
If you want another example, look at Matt Harrison. He has progressively bumped his velocity up each year. This year he is sitting 93-95, T98. He was 90-92 when he got to the Rangers. I have no idea if long toss has helped him or if he’s just matured as a pitcher. The Rangers have 3 starters in the top 16 in FB velocity.
4. Ogando 94.4 MPH
10. Holland 93.3 MPH
16. Harrison 92.9 MPH
I’m not there, so i can’t tell you if long toss has anything to do with this, but I don’t think you can say it doesn’t either.
I'm agnostic about long toss
I just think that we don’t learn anything when we give it credit for every success and explaining away every failure, and that folks like Ryan and Schaum are going way beyond the evidence when they sing its praises.
Not actually affiliated with whygavs.
by WHYG Zane Smith on May 21, 2011 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
If you're truly agnostic
you’d reserve judgment until a regime like the Rangers actually has enough time and examples to assess. You seem averse, not agnostic.
by blackoutyears on May 21, 2011 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
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