Deep Analysis: Dustin Ackley of the Seattle Mariners
NOTE FROM JOHN: This fanpost from Humbled Fan is so good, I'm promoting it to the front page.
My Long Look at Dustin Ackley by Humbled Fan
Frankly, I don't know why I have to keep defending Dustin Ackley. Typically, a player will come into the league with a lot of hype and people won't be so quick to judge a slow start. It seems to me that if you are an actual baseball fan that has watched baseball for more than a couple of years, you'd know not to judge a player on small sample sizes and that there is an adjustment period. It doesn't appear that's the case anymore.
Maybe in an age where you can instantly watch a movie on Netflix, Americans have lost that thing called patience. It would explain why participation in Little Leagues is significantly down in the last 10 years, mostly because kids are calling baseball "boring" If Adrian Peterson can dominate football in his first season, if Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco can be good as rookies, if Blake Griffin can win the Slam Dunk contest as a rookie, then why can't my favorite baseball player win an MVP as a rookie?
Jason Heyward just had one of the best rookie seasons you'll ever see, yet in the grand scheme of things it seemed very "meh." Baseball got even unluckier when it appeared that the leagues best pitcher (not best rookie, but best PITCHER) could have been Stephen Strasburg last season, and then we lost him.
So in comes Dustin Ackley as the clear-cut #2 pick in the 2009 draft. There was just as little doubt that Ackley was the 2nd best prospect in the draft as there was that Strasburg was the best. He was one of the purest hitters you'd ever see coming out of college, with a sweet left-handed swing, top-end speed, a keen eye, and a potential for more power than most guys of his stature.
Yet it seemed almost immediately that his detractors started coming out of the woodwork. "He won't ever hit for power" "His speed isn't that great" "Defense blah blah blah"
Well, even if the defense is an issue, it shouldn't affect fantasy owners in the short-term. The Mariners are committed to him at 2nd base. If Craig Biggio could eventually move from catcher to 2B, then Ackley will be able to move from centerfield to 2B until he has proven completely helpless. That's where his value will be best utilized by the organization.
So, we have college numbers, and over a full year of minor league numbers. Let's take a look at the REAL prospects of Dustin Ackley as a hitter and fantasy-player.
College
Ackley went to the University of North Carolina after earning some All-American accolades in high school as a third baseman and pitcher. He broke out right away, winning National Freshman of the Year honors after hitting .402/.448/.591 and leading the nation in hits. He hit 10 HR, stole 11 bases, scored 74 runs, and had a 30/21 BB/K ratio.
Nobody would blame him for not being able to top one of the greatest freshman seasons ever, but he did it anyway. Ackley hit .417/.503/.597 with 7 HR, a school-record 82 R, 19 SB, and a 53/27 BB/K ratio.
Ackley broke out the whomping stick in his junior year and hit .417/.517/.763, 22 HR, 13 SB, 75 R, and a 50/34 K/BB ratio. Ackley is the only player in UNC history to hit over .400 twice in his career, and he did it three times.
To break it out in simple terms; Dustin Ackley is one of the top college baseball players of our generation. The only thing that overshadowed him was Stephen Strasburg.
2009 Arizona Fall League
Ackley was drafted #2 by the Seattle Mariners and since he was signed at the deadline, didn't make his pro debut that year. He got his first taste of pro ball in the Arizona Fall League. Ackley hit .315/.412/.425. Yes, it is the AFL but still - there are good prospects and players in the fall league, and Ackley was amongst the best.
This is one of my favorite arguments of people who look for something bad to say about a prospect. "It's the Arizona Fall League, that's why he did good." (Similarly, when its a league known for hitting like the PCL or California League) My only answer is "I'm sorry. Should he have done bad?" Even if a player is hitting on the moon, I'd prefer he did good than bad. Ackley hadn't played organized baseball in months, and got right into his stride.
2010 AA West Tennessee
He debuted in 2010 with Double-A West Tenn. He got off to a horrible start and hit .147/.289/.227 in 90 plate appearances in April. Basically, this is where anybody that dislikes Ackley get all of their ammo. His first month of professional baseball.
I'm not saying that it's not a month that happened. It is something to be accounted for. He hit really bad for a month in 2010.
His overall line in West Tennessee ended up at .263/.389/.384, 2 HR, 29 RBI, 21 doubles, 55 BB, 41 K's, 8 SB over 350 PA's before being promoted to AAA.
The negatives: Ackley didn't flash any power. Even when he hit well, he wasn't hitting home runs. Not expected to fill out immediately and become a power hitter, the hope was and still is that Ackley can develop something like 15-20 HR power, and he only hit 2 in a little over 3 months at AA. People expecting more speed were also disappointed, as Ackley "only" stole 8 in a little over a half-season, despite getting on base so much. Additionally, Ackley hit the ball on the ground 56% and only 12% line drives.
The positives: After April, Ackley was almost everything he was expected to be and in some cases, more. He had a .180 BABIP in April, and that immediately shot up to .355 in May and so all of the rest of his numbers shot up too. In 101 May PA's: .303/.475/.447 was his triple slash. He had a .421 wOBA, a .144 ISO, walked 21.8% of the time and struck out only 12.9%. In 119 June PA's: .294/.387/.451, .369 wOBA, .157 ISO, 13.4% walks, 9.2% K's and line drives were up to 14%.
Ackley was hitting for average, drawing a ridiculous amount of walks, limiting strikeouts, displaying fair power for a player of his size, and because his BB/K numbers were still elite in April, one can argue that many of his failures were attributed to BABIP. To be fair, he was not yet displaying the 20/20 (or maybe 15/30) kind of numbers many people were expecting.
After 40 PA's in July, Ackley hit .333/.400/.389 and was promoted to AAA Tacoma.
2010 AAA Tacoma
Ackley was one of the youngest hitters in AAA at 22-years-old and still in his first pro season. His numbers kind of got all "reversey" (A word I'm allowed to make up) when he got there. His strikeouts outnumbered his walks for the first time, but he was displaying more power. His final line in 237 PA's was .274/.338/.439, 5 HR, 23 RBI, 12 doubles, 4 triples, 2 stolen bases, 20/38 BB/K ratio, .165 ISO.
His road numbers were significantly better than his home numbers.
HOME: .253/.315/.394
ROAD: .292/.357/.478
Though the PCL is known as a hitting league, Tacoma's park factors show that it is much tougher on hitters than say Colorado, Reno, or Tuscon. And even tougher on left-handed hitters. You could surmise that his home numbers were hampered by the fact that it's a tougher stadium to play in than most in the PCL, and conversely that his road numbers were helped by the rest of the PCL.
The negatives: Ackley's overall numbers were less than expected. His minor league best K/BB ratio numbers suffered, though they were still better than average. His OBP should be his greatest strength, and it wasn't. He also stole only 2 bases.
The positives: He was still one of the youngest hitters in the league, and holding his own. Despite the reputation that a AAA pitcher may get as being "bad" because they are often older veterans that haven't been able to stick in the major leagues, or not good enough to get called up, they are still significantly talented pitchers and in many cases much older than Ackley. His power numbers shot up and were closer to the 15 HR per season range we would hope for. And though he stole only 2 bases, his 4 triples in less than half-a-season (and 8 triples overall) show that he really does have significant speed and perhaps just wasn't getting enough stolen base opportunities, green light, that sort of thing. Stealing bases is more than just speed, it is an artform. So it's still too early to tell if Ackley doesn't steal bases because of opportunity, or because he's not a great base stealer.
2010 Arizona Fall League
Ackley followed up his very good 2009 AFL with an MVP performance in 2010:
.424/.581/.758, 4 HR, 19 RBI, 28 R, 5 for 5 on stolen bases.
Again, say what you want about the AFL, I'll probably agree with you. It was only 20 games, but on the same token, look at his counting stats in only 20 games. To me, it shows that within Dustin Ackley is a lot of talent. Whether or not that can be tapped into on a consistent basis is the same question we have to ask ourselves about every prospect.
2011 AAA Tacoma
He returned to AAA Tacoma this season to work on his second base defense, refine his hitting, and run down his Super Two clock. Like in 2010, he did not hit the ground running.
In 114 April PA's: .211/.333/.305, .094 ISO, 2 HR, 15.8% BB, 14.9% K, 55% GB, 15% LD, .237 BABIP, 4 SB
The average and power is bad, the groundballs are discouraging. However, the BB/K is still elite, and his line drives have been up since he arrived in Tacoma.
If he can continue what he's done in May however, he'll be exactly the player everyone has expected, wanted, or hoped for:
(10 Games) 50 PA's, .300/.420/.600, .300 ISO, 3 HR, 18% BB, 10% K, 43% GB, 17% LD, .281 BABIP, 2 SB
In this recent stretch he's hit for average, power, speed, with an incredible eye at the plate and without a BABIP he's capable of.
Conclusion on Minor Leagues thus far:
Positives: Ackley has an elite eye. There's no denying that his BB/K ratio is amongst the best in the minors and could translate into amongst the best in the major leagues. On par with a Daric Barton or a Billy Butler type player, but perhaps with less strikeouts. Even when he's bad, he's great at this.
In 85 AAA games total he's hit .259/.348/.421, 10 HR, 18 doubles, 39 RBI, 8 SB, 4 CS, 56 R. I think his power is a little underrated at this point. Yes, its going to be tougher to translate that power to the major leagues, especially Safeco Field, but it's not super easy to hit in Tacoma either.
Negatives: His slow starts are discouraging and it's not typical of elite players to be so "dead-looking" for month-long stretches. He can look so good at times (AFL, a month here and there) and also at times look so bad.
He's got a low overall average throughout his time in the minor leagues. Hoping he develops into a .300 hitter and not a .275 hitter, and one who is able to spray line drives and opposite field doubles.
More discouraging than his low stolen base total, is his low success rate on his 12 attempts at AAA.
Splits:
I don't know exactly what to think of his splits. While he struggles to hit lefties for a higher average, he actually has a higher OPS against lefties this season:
vs Lefties: .219/.395/.375
vs Righties: .243/.350/.388
Also, last season he was better on the road in the PCL than at home. This season, its the opposite.
HOME: .317/.427/.556, 4 HR, 16% BB, 13.3% K, 42% GB, 20% LD, .327 BABIP, .239 ISO, .415 wOBA
ROAD: .167/.303/.250, 1 HR, 16.9% BB, 13.5% K, 58% GB, 12% LD, .186 BABIP, .083 ISO, .266 wOBA
What these mean to me:
On the bright side, his low road BABIP is going to drive down his other numbers. I also like that no matter the situation, Ackley is going to draw a lot of walks and limit strikeouts. On the other hand, when he drives more balls into the ground more often, of course his BABIP is going to go down because there's a lower BABIP on groundballs compared to line drives.
When Ackley is hitting line drives, limiting grounders, he's going to be a good hitter because of superior BB/K numbers and a good power/speed combination.
Translation to the Pros
Barring some shocking move, Ackley will be playing his pro games for the Seattle Mariners for at least the first few years of his career. Safeco is a notorious pitchers park, which should limit most players abilities. How should it affect Ackley specifically?
Safeco's splits for lefties and righties is equal when comparing overall wOBA. Per StatCorner, the 96/96 wOBA split means hitters are going to have a tougher time than average.
Splitting it further, it is easier for lefties to hit home runs in Safeco because of the shorter porch in right (94/84 split) but this also limits lefties on doubles and triples (83/101 on doubles, 60/92 on triples) However, line drives occur at a higher rate at Safeco for both sides of the plate (108/108) which is encouraging for a player like Ackley if he's hitting 20% line drives.
I had never actually seen these splits in Safeco before, never seen it broken down this way, but it makes a lot of sense when I look at it. Despite his speed and his ability to put the ball in play hundreds of times a year, Ichiro was never an elite doubles or triples hitter. Or at least not the kind of totals you would expect.
Ackley will spend the majority of time in Safeco, but also spend a significant amount of time in Oakland, LAA, and Texas. Oakland and LAA also have slightly below average park factors for hitters. Texas however has a 156/145 park factor on triples and a 120/109 park factor on home runs. Oakland lefties have a 118 park factor on triples. It's a really small thing, but I'm just looking at every angle I can think of. There are still other places that will kill line drive hitting lefties.
Conclusion on potential pro numbers:
Based on everything I've seen, I have my doubts that Ackley will ever hit for a high batting average. It seems like he should hit for a high average, but because he uses his eye to get on base so much, its hard to conclude what he would do if he ever got the bat off his shoulder. Still, he hit well over .400 in his career at North Carolina, so maybe somewhere in there are a few high average seasons.
His on-base percentage is unquestionable. He'll draw a lot of walks, and even if he hits .270, could reach at nearly .400 or better. His power comes and goes, but lately its been there. In his time in AAA, hes hit for significant power for a small statured second baseman and I believe that with Safeco as his home park he could hit between 15 and 20 home runs in his prime. Maybe 10 to 15 home runs in his first couple of seasons. I think the potential is there for 20 home runs, perhaps Craig Biggio type power. I think doubles and triples could be similar to Ichiro, but maybe slightly higher if he is stroking more line drives. 30-35 doubles, 5-10 triples seems like a good estimate in his prime.
Stolen bases are the big question mark. All the reports about elite speed, yet not the stolen bases numbers you would expect. However, stolen bases are very dependent on team, coach, situation, and opportunity. Whether Ackley is a good base stealer would be easier for a person like me to evaluate when he's in the majors, and seeing how often he gets the green light from Eric Wedge and how often he is in the right spot. Wedge and the Mariners seem to like grabbing extra bases, have focused on players like Chone Figgins, and will require more small ball to score because of the size of the park. I think Ackley is more than capable of 20 stolen bases during a full season, and has potential to grab 30 plus with Seattle. It will be hard to say until he actually gets here, but I believe the speed at least to be real.
If I attempted to venture a guess on what a regular Dustin Ackley season would be like, I suppose I would conclude this:
.275/.380/.440, 15 HR, 75 RBI, 90 R, 20 SB, 30 doubles, 8 triples
I think that's a typical season he is capable of. Which would mean sometimes he can eclipse that and sometimes he won't quite get there.
Comps:
When it comes to plate discipline and power, I think Daric Barton 2010 is a good start. He walks, doesn't strike out, has 10-15 HR power, a .359 wOBA. I think what would separate the two would be the speed, which would increase Ackleys stolen bases and runs over a player like Barton.
Others might think more like 2010 Brett Gardner: .277/.383/.379, 5 HR, 47 SB, 97 R, but with less stolen bases and runs.
Another example might be 2010 Johnny Damon: .271/.355/.401, 8 HR, 11 SB, 81 R, 51 RBI.
Historically, I think the height of what Ackley can become is Craig Biggio. Far be it from me to compare a minor leaguer to a Hall of Famer, but there are similar conclusions for the two men who have been transferred to second base during their pro careers. Biggio was a career .281/.363/.433 hitter who averaged 17 HR, 24 SB, 67 RBI, 105 R, and 38 doubles. The reason Biggio is a Hall of Famer is because that was his average over 20 freakin' seasons. All I'm saying is that I see many similarities in what could be Ackley's prime.
Fantasy Outlook:
If Ackley were to become what I think he can become over the next couple of seasons, I would probably rate him as as perhaps the 9th-12th best 2nd baseman in the game. (Not including other prospects)
2nd Base is deeper than it used to be. Cano, Kinsler, Weeks, Utley, Kendrick, Uggla, Phillips, and Zobrist just for starters. Then I think he's in the mix with Prado, Kelly Johnson, Walker, and Beckham. So much can change between now and 2012.
But will he be a good fantasy baseball player? Yes. Will he be elite? Less likely, but possible. His floor his very high and his ceiling, while high, is unlikely to be achieved. I think for a few seasons he could be very highly sought while at other times he won't be liked by fantasy owners when he's going through a slump unless that league counts walks.
You thought I was kidding that this was many words? I clearly wasn't.
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Comments
I like your book!
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=burrou001sea
I think it is a mistake to call anything, much less minor league plate discipline, a lock to translate to MLB. Yes yes, different scouting profiles, parks, and ARLs re: the example above. However, the AA stints for Ackley and Burroughs are remarkably similar. From a non-fantasy perspective, it is difficult to see an Ackley that can’t manage a competent glove at 2B to be an above-average player stuck in LF/RF.
I’m not trying to start a flame war here or anything; this is quite a book you wrote here =) I just think it reads as about the most optimistic view of Ackley IMO.
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
Ackley is a poor man's Sean Burroughs
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 11, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
LMAO
just read this thread; kbr kinda seems like a tool here!
Arman M.
by Alice in Chains on May 23, 2011 5:09 AM EDT up reply actions
addendum re: ackley vs. burroughs
i dont think thats a good comp at all…. ackley’s potential coming into pro baseball was way higher than sean’s IMO…. he has a sweet, smooth lefty swing; and, power or not, that will translate to the bigs… mark my words my fellow baseball scholars!!!!!
Arman M.
by Alice in Chains on May 23, 2011 5:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I think I cited plenty of negatives in Ackleys game.
I don’t think people should expect every top prospect to be a star. Ackley’s a top prospect because he has a really good chance to be above-average. As noted, Biggios career average is where I see Ackleys peak, not comparing him to Biggio and saying he’s going to be a Hall of Fame player.
That’s an interesting comp with Burroughs.
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 11, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
to clarify
To clarify, I don’t think of Burroughs as a comp here, he’s just the first guy that popped into my head as a textbook example of a guy who (aside from draft pedigree) really did not have a lot going for him outside of minor league plate discipline. I’m not about to be bold enough to call Ackley the second coming of Burroughs and think we’re dealing with some pretty different situations here. I’m just fairly wary of guys whose primary strength in the minors is drawing walks if some of the secondary skills are in doubt.
As far as optimism – yes, you cited plenty of negatives and were fair in that regard. I meant more in terms of really digging into some of the numbers here. Like, sure, it is accurate that Tacoma is less of a hitter-friendly environment than other PCL parks, but it still plays basically neutral. Should Ackley be rewarded for hitting pretty poorly in a neutral park in a hitters’ league? The AFL numbers are impressive but not much more than meaningless (IMHO). Referring to his splits (especially something small like vLHP) this year is looking at a small handful of PA and just as likely to be noisy data as anything significant, etc. etc. I just think that if you went this far in-depth with any prospect, you could justify optimism for most any prospect. There’s plenty of reason to back Ackley based on some scouting reports and some things in the full-season numbers, but it seems to me he is getting a lot of ‘extra credit’ here because it’s Dustin Ackley.
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
comp
Now here’s an interesting one, except with HR power in the minors:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=spiezi001sco
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
This pretty much sums up my thoughts
Ackley is a good prospect, but there are definite flaws in his games.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 11, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I just disagree that his numbers outside of plate-discipline have been bad.
He’s shown better power than he’s given credit for and I haven’t drawn a conclusion on what kind of stolen base totals he will achieve, but I do think he has the speed to take turn some singles into doubles and doubles into triples that other players could not.
I have tempered expectations of a .300 average and admit that there are concerns with Ackley, where as last year, I would not have admitted such concerns.
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 11, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
You have no worries
I thought you went out of your way to be objective. Quibbling over how to characterize Tacoma’s park effects may be drilling down a bit too deep. We really have no idea what Ackley will do in the majors until he’s there doing it.
by blackoutyears on May 12, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
The Sean Burrouhs comp is interesting
But I’m not sure how valid it is. On the other side of the coin is Ben Zobrist, who was also a plate discipline skill-type in the minors.
by Ben Tumbling on May 11, 2011 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Sean Burroughs isn’t a comp. It’s interesting to look at their two AA lines.
Zobrist certainly maintained his ability to walk in reaching MLB, but you’re also looking at a guy who found a bunch of power literally out of nowhere upon hitting the show. Looking back on his track record, that is one bizarre career.
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
Well alright
To me it depends on how “top” of a prospect one is. If he is say, a top 10 prospect, like Ackley has been. it is okay to expect him to be a star. Or else, move someone else up to top 10.
I actually have grown, from watching him play, to like him as a player. He just isn’t one of the 10 best players in the minor leagues, in my opinion. So my quarrel isn’t with him but, as usual, with the community.
I do think it somewhat interesting how more and more people back off from more and more of his projected skills though. First people said “15-20 homers”, then they said “nobody expected any power”. I heard “a surefire .300+ hitter” now I’ve heard “.275 -.300” a few times.
i’ve even heard his supporters trying to move him back to the outfield but, i went out and watched him play this weekend and i think he stays and plays at second base and I stick with my Adam Kennedy comp. Shoot, maybe even a tad better. He wishes he was as good as Craig Biggio’s average year though.
One last thing. Why isn’t Yonder Alonso EVER desribed as one of the best college hitters of the generation like Dustin Ackley? I though you guys on here were over batting average? Thats the only thing Ackley did better than Alonso in college. . .
Ackley OPS at UNC – 1.039, 1.100, 1.280
Alonso OPS at UM – .865, 1.224, 1.311
Smoak OPS at SC – .993, 1.065, 1.262
Gordon Beckham and Buster Poseey were better in thier Junior season’s as well. Doesn’t stop anybody from saying he was the “best pure hitter” of his generation though. What is Alonso then? An impure hitter?
Does it not matter . . . at all . . . that Yonder has actually hit btter as a pro?
.291 .366 .460
In fact, ALL, of these college kids have hit better in the minor leagues than Ackley.
"if it first you don't suceed, maybe you just suck" - Kenny Powers
Well, I didn't call him the greatest college hitter of our generation. I said he was "one of the"
And I think that’s a fair statement.
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 11, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shoot
I don’t have the energy to go back and see right now but, I’ll take your word for it HF :)
Good effort on your report and good work too. A very balanced, fair view of his talents, Id say.
"if it first you don't suceed, maybe you just suck" - Kenny Powers
Yeah, I wouldn't say he's the "greatest" Far be it from me to put that title on anyone and there's been a lot of good college players in recent years.
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 11, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
True
I’ve heard quite a few people do it though and, not only is he not the best pure hitter of his generation or just best hittr of his generation (I’ve heard both) he isn’t even clearly the best hitter of just tghe few years before during and after his career at UNC. Like you say, he was very good but, one of many.
"if it first you don't suceed, maybe you just suck" - Kenny Powers
Great work Humbledfan
I am not the biggest Ackley fan (SHOCKING I KNOW!!!!) but this is a solid writeup. Rec’d sir!!!!
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 11, 2011 4:46 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks man, I appreciate it.
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 11, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
You beat me to it. I was going to post a link to it, but am glad you posted it here as well. Excellent writeup.
Ray Guilfoyle
www.faketeams.com
www.sbnation.com
www.minorleagueball.com
by Ray Guilfoyle on May 11, 2011 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the solid read
Loved following him in college and have been mildly surprised by his minor league difficulties. Even though he’s had to make a ton of adjustments playing in AA and AAA his first season, I don’t get the vibe he’ll put it all together.
Thanks. It's hard to say. Sometimes he seems like he can live up to the hype and other times he does not.
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 11, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Right!
To me he makes more sense as a prospect when we let go of what he ’could be" or was hyped to be and just look at him objectively. I mean look at him without the context of his raking as a prospect. Some already do this. Some like me, actually care and are interested in discussing why and how players get ranked where they do.
He makes a lot more sense as a prospect when he is say, the 22nd best and not the 8th best. Thats a huge difference in an avaerage year in the quality of ballplayer.
Thats why I bristle when people ask if i am “worried” about him as a prospect. I say “no” because I already tempered my expectations of him as a player sooner than some did maybe. I think he’ll play second decently for the Ms startuing in about two months from now and I expect him to get on base a lot. Thats good enough for me.
"if it first you don't suceed, maybe you just suck" - Kenny Powers
I have read reports he seems uninterested on D
sometimes lazy about balls that he could maybe reach. Did you see him enough to get this impression or not? I’ve always been more concerned about his D.
As far as hitting he will be fine. He will hit decent average and great on base. I think the 15 homers is more of a career year than an average year though. Unless he really changes as a hitter or moves to NY where he can pull it down the line.
Hmm
I had read he had been uninterested playing the OF in his career but enjoyed the switch to 2nd base because of greater activitiy.
I read on lookoutlanding guys that saw him a lot
make that statement. I haven’t seen him so can’t really say.
This is great HumbledFan
one of the best fanposts I’ve seen written on site (definitely in recent memory, but also in all of my time reading the site)
Nice post
General statement to everyone, not to HumbleFan. What is with the fascination with forcing comparisons on players to validate opinions? Generally they are forced and uninformative, I just really don’t get it.
Bullpen Banter's Top 100 Prospects for 2011!
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You can find my musings at Bullpen Banter and Beyond the Box Score.
I think people make comparisons
because, much like John’s crystal balls, people are fascinated by how minor league numbers translate into a major league career. For example, player A had this type of career in the minors and went on to this type of career. Player B has very similar numbers, similar body type, and similar skill set; therefore one could expect a similar major league career to Player A.
I do agree with your assessment that many of these comparisons are forced haphazardly without in depth analysis of numbers to back such comparisons up. On the other hand, easy comparisons are used for fantasy owners to know whether or not to take a prospect seriously or not.
BTW Mike Trout is the next Tim Salmon. I mean, look at their last names. It’s obvious!
by asyouwish33 on May 12, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
comps
Not a fan of them in general. Since I’m probably one of the people you’re directing this comment at (if you’re talking about this thread, and not speaking generally), I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing to empirical evidence of excellent BB/K numbers not translating cleanly to MLB. That is a big chunk of the argument that Ackley can still turn into Craig Biggio, much less a solidly above-average regular.
But the nonsense like every mediocre short middle infielder becoming David Eckstein and every good short middle infielder becoming Dustin Pedroia.. yeah, forget that.
http://rswanzey.blogspot.com
Yeah, imagine I let out a big "sigh" when I get to the comps section.
It’s really hard to do, its speculating, its making assumptions but I felt like it was an important part to include for fantasy. I also think it would temper expectations a bit to explain “Look, I think Ackley can be Daric Barton, but with more speed and from 2nd base.” That makes comps even more difficult when you add the buts. I mean, we look at John’s Player Profiles and when he gets to the Sim Scores, how often are they below 900? Soooo many players are unique. But I was willing to give it a shot in terms of statistics I would expect from Dustin.
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 12, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Lippmann
It’s easier for people to think in stereotype, and it conveys a big message quickly and easily. So, think of it this way: the Ackley-Biggio comp is a lot easier for people to digest quickly than explaining career arc, potential stat line, etc.
This is the same reason why we constantly refer to history in order to interpret current events. Useful analogues of the past help us understand the present and predict the future.
Lazy analysis.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on May 12, 2011 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
good article and I agree I still think he will be a good player
but you do kind of apologize for longer stretches for poor performance and tout his small sample sucess.
his wOBA splits by month
Just because I’m lazy and this is easy to do using firstinning’s splits (and yes, these are all arbitrary endpoint small samples, but they are a way to encapsulate “stretches” of performance):
April 2010 – .253
May 2010 – .421
June 2010 – .369
July 2010 – .359 (in AA)
July 2010 – 343 (in AAA)
August 2010 – .327
September 2010 – .352
April 2011 – .293
May 2011 – .429
He also had a 2010 AFL line of .424/.581/.758 mixed in the middle. I think the more accurate narrative is that he’s had two small sample size stretches that were horrifically bad, and the rest of the time he’s largely been pretty good.
Yeah, I'd say he's been ~.350 wOBA player and that's not bad from 2nd base.
In regards to “apologizing” for his poor stretches, I come right out in the beginning and explain that I am an Ackley defender so I think that would explain the tone of that. Though even I am willing to admit that the deeper look into his numbers gave me more cause for concern than I wanted to see. I still think he’s going to be a good player with a few seasons where he’s great. (Darin Erstad comp seems to grow more and more legs)
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 12, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
That was one of my thoughts reading this
If you take out his two May performances, does this discussion even take place?
Guys with will rounded games who don't project...
to hit for a ton of power always seem to get questioned until they produce.
I’m on the Ackley bandwagon.
I don't think everyone would be questioning him...
if he were hitting .300.
by polodude017 on May 12, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
True...I shoulda/woulda/coulda developed that thought, and still might.
Ackley’s too skilled a player for me to be too down on right now.
Ackley's Speed
I don’t get the continuous references to this “elite speed” you speak of. Every report I have read puts a 50 or 55 on his speed – hardly elite. I just don’t ever see him being more than a 10-15 SB guy in the bigs.
I have read he does pile up the triples thanks to just how quickly he gets out of the box. Take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAAbgx5BOg0
He’s running right as he finishes his swing. I would venture to guess he gets an extra second on the trip to 3B simply due to how quick he gets out of the box. It shows that Ackely does have good baseball IQ.. but I completely disagree with the concept that he has anything more than average to slightly above average speed.
That's a good call on him getting out of the box quickly, a la Ichiro. Could lead to a ton of infield hits.
I came across something interesting lately and wondering if anyone has any insight.
I looked up the all-time stolen base leaders and out of the top 39 or so (it was somewhere between 37 and 40) only 13 were strictly right-handed batters. The rest were lefties or switch hitters. Anybody want to venture a guess, or have actual knowledge, of why this would be the case?
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 12, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Jason Grey of ESPN
http://insider.espn.go.com/sports/fantasy/blog?name=grey_jason&id=5817093
It’s an insider column, but I’ll quote this blurb from his AFL scouting report:
Ackley’s plus speed — he has been timed at 4.12 from home to first base here, making him close to a 70 runner on the 20-to-80 scouting scale in terms of raw speed
But home to first time means NOTHING to me
Like I said, he gains time just due to how quickly he gets out of the box. I don’t think it is fair to equate home to first time into a 20-80 scale grade.
His time from 1B to 2B means a LOT more to me when it comes time to seeing if he can pile up the SBs.
relax
you: asked where people get the idea that he’s a plus runner.
me: provided a link where one of the biggest sports web sites in the world called him a plus runner, tons of people read it, get the impression he’s a plus runner
by jibs on May 12, 2011 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough
I’m relaxed. I just think the impression is incorrect.
I'm curious as to what you would feel is a good indicator of plus speed.
Base stealing? Base running? Converting doubles into triples and singles into doubles?
Ichiro Suzuki has the same general “movement towards first” phenomenon that allows him to gather a few more infield hits than an average player. Are you saying Ichiro doesn’t have (or had in his prime) plus speed?
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on May 15, 2011 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Ichiro is insane
This guy is just a machine who defies all projection systems. Pecota openly admits that it has no idea how to predict his numbers. It is pretty insane that a guy who didn’t come to the states till he was 27 and still has a chance at 3000 hits. When you combine that with his elite level OF play, he is a first ballot HOF.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 15, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
Not trying to compare the two directly, just curious as to whether a good first step to first via some sort of swing mechanic negates the theory that a player is rated as having plus speed.
There’s more to it than just home to first velocity.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on May 15, 2011 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus speed
To me, plus speed is more measured by how fast you are… not by starting to run a split second earlier than most people do. If you give me a 2 step start (behind the line – getting my momentum going) on a 40 yd dash I am sure I would put up a much better time than just starting from a standing position. I would never for one second though believe that I have “plus speed” in that scenario though. Ackley’s “form” allows him to turn some doubles into triples, but has no bearing whatsoever on his ability to steal bases or go from first to third on an OF single.
My question, based on the Ichiro example...
Is why are you letting the swing mechanic issue interfere with the overall assessment of Ackley’s speed rating. Because he gets a minor head start, he’s no longer “plus” speed?
The extra motion from home to first might cloud the issue of his home to first speed, but it doesn’t at all effect what he does otherwise. Speed is still speed.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on May 15, 2011 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me explain it this way
Jibs pointed to a Jason Gray article stating that Ackley’s home to first time equates to 70 speed. I am suggesting that Ackley’s swing mechanics have more to do with that time than his actual speed. People want to put a 60 or 70 on Ackley’s speed and all of a sudden think he will be stealing 30-40 bases in his prime. Getting from home to first is different than getting from first to second, and I am betting that if you put Ackley in a foot race with a bonafide 70 speed guy, he would lose that 40 yd dash by a fair amount.
By no means am I saying this is a “bad” thing. Ackley clearly has a very high baseball IQ. I was just opposing the thought that Ackley has anything resembling plus speed. You said it yourself above:
There’s more to it than just home to first velocity.
I think of speed as just a simple 40 yd dash. Some players have higher baseball IQs that make them look faster than they actually are. Albert Pujols is a great example of this. He will steal 10 bases despite clearly having only 35-40 speed. Some players just go from first to third better than others thanks to that IQ. I see these as two separate issues.
My point... again...
Why are you declaring that Ackley doesn’t have plus speed. The only thing you’ve brought up is the home to first bit. So all you’ve done is provide a reason to question his home to first speed. You haven’t provided any evidence that the rest of his speed game is lessened by this. He may still have 70 speed, or whatever someone is ranking him at, and STILL have this move to first.
Which is why I brought up Ichiro. Are you declaring that Ichiro does not have plus speed because he does the same thing? It sounds to me that if you’re going to point out one aspect of speed and apply it to every facet of speed, then you must apply it also to other players with similar skill sets.
They’re not really separate issues. Just because Pujols can steal a base with less speed doesn’t mean that Dustin Ackley has less speed.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on May 17, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure you read all his first post? He clearly states reports he read state Ackley’s speed is 50 to 55. He then states that some rate him as 70 speed because of his initial move out of the batters box.
Ichiro is a strawman argument. Ichiro had 70 speed but that was effectively 80 speed when applied to when he came out of the batters box.
I don’t think anyone is comparing Ackleys speed to Ichiro. And he never pointed out one aspect and applied it to everything. He was doing the opposite. He was trying to separate one aspect of speed out of everything.
quote:
I don’t get the continuous references to this "elite speed" you speak of. Every report I have read puts a 50 or 55 on his speed – hardly elite. I just don’t ever see him being more than a 10-15 SB guy in the bigs.
I have read he does pile up the triples thanks to just how quickly he gets out of the box. Take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAAbgx5BOg0
He’s running right as he finishes his swing. I would venture to guess he gets an extra second on the trip to 3B simply due to how quick he gets out of the box. It shows that Ackely does have good baseball IQ.. but I completely disagree with the concept that he has anything more than average to slightly above average speed.
As I mentioned in my article...
I don’t think question Ackley’s speed, but I do question his base stealing ability.
Just pointing that out.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 17, 2011 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
when I said "he" I was referring to guru4u
I question his stealing, but not his 1st to 3rd or home to 1st. He has good speed, probably not “elite” though.
I know, just throwing my 2 cents in.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 17, 2011 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm actually the other way around
I think he’s going to be a very good basestealer, in the sense that combined with his good natural speed, he will be able to use his IQ to get into good opportunities.
I don’t know what Utley’s speed graded out as, but he had a high of 23 and was in the teens mostly. I see Ackley being just a bit higher, as he figures to be higher in the lineup
He hasn't been a good basestealer so far
16 for 22 is pretty average.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 18, 2011 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess you could call me something of an Ackley hater.
I have certainly questioned his placement among the elite prospects over the last year or so. You make a good point though, in saying that not all prospects are rated for the ceiling. Some, like Ackley I suppose, are rated highly because of their super high floor. Like you said, because of his plate discipline, I find it hard to believe he’s anything less than a good OBP guy with 10+ steals and HR per season. That’s a very good #2 hitter.
I think my two main problems are these:
1) I don’t think his ceiling is as high as most do.
2) I don’t understand why the Mariners have insisted on promoting him (and probably will promote him to the majors) before he actually masters a level.
Yeah, and maybe most people just take issue with the fact that BA has ranked him 11th and 12th respectively in two years.
Whereas they would see a high floor hitter as a solid #30-40. I don’t put much investment into rankings. I think they are about as fun and useful as a player comp. (Which is to say they are fun, but not as useful)
@casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 12, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
" I don’t put much investment into rankings."
Bravo! We need to start a club. lol
by blackoutyears on May 12, 2011 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Terrific post, great job Humbled Fan.
In Lax We Trust - Official Pro Lacrosse Blog of SBN
Inside Hockey - NHL Analyst
Worth noting
Cheney Stadium (Rainiers home park) had significant renovations after last season, and apparently it has become much more of a hitters park now. They lowered the fence about 10 feet, and Ryan Divish (Mariners beat writer) said that he’s seen many home runs so far that would have been doubles before.
This doesn’t apply to Ackley’s stats there last year, but may have something to do with his power spike this year (4 HR at home).
I really don't see how this matters.
Balls that would have been home runs this year were doubles last year. Doesn’t that mean balls that were doubles last year would be home runs this year? Power is power. Just because a stupid park dimension has gotten in the way before doesn’t diminish the accomplishment of driving a ball that far.
And let’s face it… a 10 foot REDUCTION in wall means that home runs would have had to have been hit at least 10 feet HIGHER than before. 10 feet is beyond regular park fence heights anyway. Here, take a gander:
(image link for bigger shots: Renovated right field)
That’s what they are now. I don’t have a great point of reference in that shot, but they’re standing about 8 feet right now. Add another 10. That’s a big honkin’ wall to get over.
So, sure, a ball squibbing the fence at 9 feet off the ground is not as impressive a home run as one hit 19 feet off the ground, but that’s still a pretty impressive shot. I honestly do not see why this should be considered that heavily.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on May 15, 2011 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Tacoma HR
On the note of his home runs I know Mike Curto (Tacoma play by play man) has tweeted that at least one of his HR was a product of the new dimensions. it would have been a double last year, but I think he also said that two of his home runs were legit and would have been out of Cheney last year. as for his 4th home run, who knows
by VanillaGorilla on May 12, 2011 11:38 PM EDT reply actions
Great info
Thanks
"Some field has fences, and sometime, the field cant hold a player, but most of the time, a field cant hold Domingo"
http://www.domingobeisbol.com/
Good post and all...
but I’m not going to begin expecting anything from Ackley until he hits consistently in the minors or majors. The reason, I believe, that most people are so down on Dustin Ackley as opposed to other college hitters who struggle is because the type of hitter Ackley was advertised as coming out of college. Ackley was considered an advanced hittter that would be able to shoot through the minors. He has shown the scouting reports were hyped up a considerable amount. Also, the power that was going to turn into a 20+ per year hitter doesn’t seem to be there, which hinders his status considerably. To top it all off, the guy got one of the biggest bonuses in draft history. How is no one mad that he isn’t dominating? As a Pirates fan, I am highly upset that Pedro Alvarez hasn’t turned into the slugger he was supposed to be when we drafted him. Even if he does end up becoming what he was supposed to be, I am upset it is taking the time it did. He will probably move off of 2nd base too. Neil Walker made the transition this past season at the major league level, while changing his approach at the plate, and still killed the ball. The transition to 2nd is more of an excuse for him not hitting than anything actually legiment.
So my point is simple: I am not an Ackley basher, but for a hitter like him, I can NOT favor him when he does not produce. If he starts producing consistently, you can sign me up as one of his fans.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
And as I said, inconsistency has been one of his major issues.
Dustin Ackley may not be a super-prospect, but he’s a very good one.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 13, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
What range would you put him in?
Does 30-40 seem reasonable?
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 13, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Its tough to say. It's questionable if he is even the best prospect in the Mariners system, depending on Nick Franklin.
I see Franklin as a boom or bust and Dustin Ackley as a player with a solid chance to be an above average major leaguer. Which should hold more value? The high floor or the high ceiling? That’s why I find it tough to make a solid argument for any ranking of most players. If Ackley were to not graduate this season, after an influx from this seasons draft, he’d probably drop down to that 30-40 range. He’s a solid B+ prospect.
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by Kenneth Arthur on May 13, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Always ceiling
Solid players only add a little over average value. True studs are hard to find, are not on the trade market or free agency often, and … Hmmm, let’s say a good player gives you one WAR and the stud gives you four. The four WAR is equivalent to getting four one WAR players but without eliminating the opportunity cost.
Is that really a fair assessment?
League average is 2 WAR, so a good player(hard to peg that word exactly, but let’s go with “above average” as HF used for Ackley) should be what, 2.5 to 3.5 WAR? I can see maybe a 2 to 1 type ratio between a good player and a stud in terms of WAR totals, but 4 to 1(at least on a consistent basis)? That seems like a stretch to me.
http://bullpenbanter.com
numbers are off, for some reason I was thinking above average
not replacement. The point remains the same though …
The point only remains the same
if both players are equally likely to reach those numbers. Most times the higher upside player comes with increased risk and there are certainly points where the risk outweighs reward vs. a safer player more likely to reach their ceiling.
http://bullpenbanter.com
I think it's a perception that floor is taken over ceiling
and I think it’s a flawed one. Usually the reason the so called floor player is taken because they believe he will end up as a better player in the long run. They just don’t believe the high ceiling player has much chance at reaching his ceiling.
I don’t believe quality teams draft for floor. They draft early for the player with the highest realistic outcome. They draft late for highest ceiling and don’t worry too much about floor. This is where they look for projectable and results to date are not that important.
I think for the most part they use OFP which is not a ceiling but a probable outcome. Then they temper this with makeup which is huge. On here it seems makeup (except cases like Dukes) is ignored.
Yeah, 1 WAR isn't a good player by MLB standards.
Ackley is a 4 win player. Nick Franklins ceiling is maybe a 5 win player? That’s a really high ceiling too by the way.
I don’t think there’s an “always ceiling” rule. Plenty of clubs have gone with high floor players as a means to success. Taking high ceiling, high risk players for a very bad team, can lead to long draughts of minor league success.
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by Kenneth Arthur on May 13, 2011 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
take a look at successful teams
Boston, NY, Anaheim for example go high ceiling and have had a lot of success. Even Oakland used to go this route but now opt more for high floor.
Anyways … If you have three players with 1 win above average or you have one player 3 wins above average and two average players → which do you choose? I always choose the 3 wins above average. Both teams would theoretically get the same results. The one has a lot more opportunity for improvement via trade, promotion, etc.
I don't even know how I got here or where this is going.
Dustin Ackley is not a 1 win player. That’s why he has a high floor. Point is moot. We are talking about 1 player here, not every player in the organization. You take some guys with floors, other guys with ceilings. I don’t think this subthread can go much farther.
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by Kenneth Arthur on May 14, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I wasnt referring to Ackley at all
I was talking about methodology – taking upside over floor. And while you take some with upside and some for floor I believe the point is the same. Upside is much more important than floor. That doesn’t mean floor isn’t important.
Bad streaks...
like the one he has been showing aren’t going to make him a good major league player. Even if he hits really well for a while, the bad streaks are gonna keep him from being the player his fans believe he will be. Also, the type of hitter he is just hurts him so much. If he doesn’t provide a consistenly high avg, then I don’t see much value from him. Not enough power for a corner OF spot(unless he performs a miracle, he is not sticking at 2nd), not enough speed to make up for the low power, and inconsistent with his batting avg. That sounds like an Xavier Nady type of player(Nady had a little more power).
Ps. He is still probably in my top 50 because I see the potential, but I don’t even want to call him a “very” good prospect. “Very” seems to imply he is likelyy to be a “very” good major league player and I am far from agreeing with that. Solid B prospect for me. Could be B+ if he hits like he did this past week for a little while longer. I still like Jason Kipnis better.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
I guess we agree to disagree.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on May 13, 2011 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Can someone be considered so overrated that they actually become underrated?
There is a lot of value to what Ackley does well in my opinion.
I call this the Derek Jeter Scenario
It is when the hate for a player deemed ‘overrated’ goes so far that people actually are underrating him. A few years ago people were so down on Jeter’s glove that they forgot that his bat still kept him as a premium SS.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 13, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
i’m a glass half full sorta guy, but alot of what i see wrong in the prospecting game is focusing too much on the negatives and not factoring in floor / maturity / normal growth.
I wouldn’t say that Ackley is top 10 right now, but if he isn’t top 25 then we’ve got problems
Top 25 is stretching it
You should have to have VERY good numbers to be top 25. Top 40 seems reasonable though.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 14, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
"You should have to have VERY good numbers to be top 25"
No you should not. You should have to have the ability to play baseball well.
Good ability to play baseball tends to lead to good numbers
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 16, 2011 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Was Hanley a top 25 prospect?
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on May 17, 2011 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea. I just assumed he was. I really don't have to even be using evidence to back this point up becuase your argument that you NEED good stats to be a top 25 guy just stupid.
A lot of guys have been top 25 straight after being drafted, with zero pro data.
ability leads to numbers
I think the point is more that good numbers aren’t necessarily a reliable indicator of talent. So you rank on ability, sometimes even in the absence of numbers.
by blackoutyears on May 17, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions
In response to this, Ackley has gone on a crushing spree of the PCL. And he continued with a first pitch homer today.
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by Kenneth Arthur on May 17, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha
Even YOU can get excited by small sample sizes huh? Remember the into to your article? :-)
Thats ok, I dont think any of us are immune to that. I’m glad he has really started to HIT. Its nice to see. I’ll gladly be wrong If it means the M’s get a second baseman who gets on the sacks 40%of the time and can hit too. In person I actually though he looked decent defensively as well.
"if it first you don't suceed, maybe you just suck" - Kenny Powers
re: HF's post a.k.a. "book" on ackley
your post was good in the sense that it had a lot of relevant facts and tried to remain objective…. so, not to rain on ur parade haha but it could use some work stylistically (the way ben franklin assessed/worked on his own execution), and contained a few fatal typos bro!! (e.g., saying “without” when you meant “with,” etc.)…. so in conclusion i recommend reading ben franklin’s awesome autobiography and a book on the conventions of standard written english hahaha good work tho brotha….
p.s. what made u think of the name “humbled fan”?
Arman M.
by Alice in Chains on May 23, 2011 5:17 AM EDT reply actions

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