Casejud's Top 50 Future Big League Prospects
In honor of Thursday's opening day in the minor leagues, I thought I'd put out what has to be the final prospect list of the 2010/2011 off-season. I kept putting it off because I wanted to keep adding to it - seeing more players -etc. Well, what are you gonna do? Everybody has players they know more or less about and, its never going to be perfect. Prospecting is always a work in progress right? Anyways, what matters is how I see these kids and getting it "on the record" as they say.
A couple of things about my list A) The order of the listed players is important. I always here that the order of a list isn't important on here and it annoys me. Why number the list at all if it doesn't matter? Specifically, each player is better than the next player and If I was drafting, this is the order I'd take them in. B) I did only top 50 for a reason. In any given year considerably less than 50 players make it as major leaguers regulars so, If your favorite player isn't in my top 50 it's beacuse I don't think he is good enough or, I just don't know as much about him as you.
I'm excited about the minor league season, as wll as the big leagues. I can't wait too see how wrong all of of us will be about certain players in just a few short months. Enjoy the year everybody and, enjoy critiquing my list.
1) Bryce Harper, of, Nationals: 18 and ½ years - The Kid-Sensation began his professional career Thursday at Rome for Hagerstown. I expect more of the miraculous for this kid who has yet to be challenged by anything thus far. As a big leaguer I expect sort of a Carlos Delgado and Reggie Jackson hybrid. I foresee a smart and complete hitter who works the count and looks for pitches to crush as well as a big-time clutch performer who occasionally ticks people off along the way.
2) Mike Trout, of, Angels - 19 and ¾ years – I’m a huge fan. I like how Trout says he wants to be a leadoff man but, I believe a modern and deluxe version of one. Let’s see here . . . a line to line hitter who will take a pitch, wreak havoc on the sacks, have good power for a leadoff guy, and plays defense? Here’s a comp for kid trout you may or may not have thought of – Rickey Henderson! He stars his AA season for Arkansas in the TL.
3) Aroldis Chapman, lhp, Reds - 23 years, 1 month – As much as there are many things to question about him- his role, his command – he also deals 103 gas, has the great slider and the makings of a good change, and possesses the size and durability of a major league starter. I still think he puts it all together and becomes a front of the rotation horse – Vida Blue baby.
4) Julio Teheran, rhp, Braves - 20 years old – Holy shit, I didn’t realize until just now that Julio will be dealing at AAA Gwinnett to start the season. If it were any team other than the Braves I might question this but, this organization has itself a way of knowing when a kid can handle this, as well as developing ones that have that sort of talent. Teheran’s size, aggressiveness, and arsenal reminds me of a young Pedro Martinez combined with some of the flair of young Liriano- must see TV when he cracks the show.
5) Will Myers, of/c, Royals - 20 and ½ years – As much as I love the Moose, Will Myers does everything he does at the plate, a year earlier than Mike does. Will’s numbers and swing look better the more you look. He has what I call an "infallible" swing and I think he will only get better after shedding the "tools of ignorance". He’s starting his AA season today for NW Arkansas. For his future I see a Derek Jeter playing right field and, if you can’t see what high praise that it, I don’t know what to tell you.
6) Jameson Taillon, rhp, Pirates - 19 years old – I almost took Shelby over big Jameson because of the Pirates cursed franchise but, this kid may have what it takes to survive the Pirates coaching and lead them to the ‘Promised Land" or, maybe, the magical 80 win mark or something? When I have seen him his size and curve have reminded me of Justin Verlander and his fastball had movement like Fausto Carmona’s.
7) Nick Franklin, ss, Mariners - 20 years, 1 month – Why not? This is where middle of the order bats that play Shortstop should rank, isn’t it? I think all of the talk about Franklin’s power being some kind of fluke is ridiculous to me. You do not "run into" a bunch of homers in a tough league to hit, when you are also one of the youngest players in the league. I’m happy to be the guy who ranked him the highest of anybody. Franklin opens his Cal League season today for High Desert. Wow, that should be fun to watch huh? – My comp? Dustin Pedroia at Shortstop . . . who bats left vs. righties . . . and hits more home runs.
8) Mike Moustakas, 3b, Royals – 22 and ½ - I think he could be even better than this but, I admit I may be biased, I love the kid. He gets a little bit too aggressive at times but if he turns into "The Panda" + PLUS as a big leaguer, that isn’t too shabby, is it? By the way, he’s a good third baseman as well – great arm, solid range, and starts the double play really well. He’ll debut at AAA today but, he’ll hit the show soon.
9) Manny Machado, ss, Orioles – 19 in July – He was ranked 26th by Mr. Law, 24th by MLB and 14th by BA - high praise indeed for a kid with 36 pro abs. I’m going to go a tad higher because I don’t have to worry about being wrong. I’m more worried he’ll be great and I’ll have ranked him below someone who is ordinary. I think everything I see about him screams – great makeup, and solid skills across the board, and thats a nice mix. I think he’ll have a big year and a big career but, I still don’t like him as much as Mr. Franklin. He makes his full-season today with the Delmarva Shorebirds in the Sally League.
10) Eric Hosmer, 1b, Royals – 21 and ½ - Man, is he quick and lethal on an inside ball. The biggest question about Hosmer as a prospect for me is will he hit more than Moustakas enough to make up for Mouse’s value as a third baseman. It’s possible. I admit that as high as I have Hosmer ranked, I could be selling him short.
11) Michael Pineda, rhp, Mariners – 22 years old – I guess I’m supposed to feel like I’m going out on a limb or something with this ranking but the other night I saw a kid with a nice slider, decent change, good command, to go along with the nice pitchers build frame and 97 mph fastball. I don’t even think he’s more of any injury risk than Jeremy Hellickson. So, the question for me is – why does everybody think Hellickson is better?
12) Shelby Miller, rhp, Cardinals – 20 and ½ - He's older than Teheran yet the Cards are taking it slower with their mound jewel. He’s starting today for Palm Beach in the FSL. He has some command issues and is still mastering a changeup so, why rush? He reminds me some of AJ Burnett- size, fastball, breaking stuff. In other words he’s a great, young talent.
13) Jeremy Hellickson, rhp, Rays – 24 years old – It almost feels like cheating ranking Hellickson at this late stage in his development. I almost miss the days when he was an underrated prospect. Now, he looks like the next Mike Mussina – if he can stay healthy. I think his pitch-ability is that good, and his arsenal is almost as good but, I’m not so sure about his delivery.
14) Brett Lawrie, 2b, Blue Jays – 21 years old – Lawrie over Ackley? Why wouldn’t he be? Lawrie was better, and much younger, in the same league last year. He had a nice year with the bat despite playing a position that was very tough for him- which is a plus in my eyes. The only reason Ackley should be ranked higher is if Ackley were a far better athlete, and he isn’t. I think Lawrie will settle in at third-base, and will have defensive value to go along with a sweet bat – reminds me of Aaron Hill some.
15) Hak-Ju Lee, ss, Rays – 20 and ½ - Lee is 92 on BA and 87 on Bullpen banter and I say, why? They both love Profar more and the BB guys say they don’t love Profar because of tools or production. What then? Projection or intuition I guess. I can understand that but Lee is an even better athlete than Profar, out hit him at the same level a year ago, and has zero questions with the glove, like Profar. Its splitting hairs really, Ilike both more than anybody I know of. Lee though, to me, is the Korean Jose Reyes and a potential super
star player. He'll play for Charlotte in the FSL this year for his new club, the Tampa Rays
16) Gary Sanchez, c, Yankees – 18 years old – Really young and, apparently, a supernaturally gifted hitter with a similar approach at the plate. I really have no idea who to believe about the development of his defense behind the dish (the numbers are awful) but, again, he’s young and very raw. He’s at Charleston in the SAL, a very interesting full-season debut to watch indeed.
17) Jurickson Profar, ss, Rangers - 18 years old – If this kid is really this young, and I’ve seen him in person and he looks like he is, man is he going to be some kind of player. He’s a natural at SS, with a sweet line drive stroke from the left side, great baseball instincts everywhere, and tons of development to go. My question to prospectors is this – If you like him, why do you rank him so low?? What is the disconnect? I don’t like him as much as Lee but, I see the value of a good big league SS. Ranking him below a guy like Dee Gordon seems sad, and weird, to me. Profar joins the SAL’s embarrassment of riches this year, Harper, Machado, Gary Sanchez, Profar, etc, wow.
18) Domonic Brown, of, Phillies – 23 and a1/2 – Does anybody else realize that 23 and a half is kinda old for a superstar talent to still be in the minors? I think people would maybe stop saying this year’s prospects weren’t as good as recent years if they would quit ranking lower upside players quite as highly. Brown is a good prospect but, I see him more as a solid regular than a star. Darryl Strawberry? Hardly. Shin-Soo Choo? Maybe.
19) Jonathan Singleton, 1b/of, Phillies – 19 and ½ - What a nice crop of first-base prospects in the minors, and majors, right now huh? Personally, I think that Singleton could rank even higher than this but, he is already placed higher than on most any list, I believe. The common thought on Singleton is "Let’s wait to see how he does in the upper minors", and to that I say that teenagers who are excellent in full-season ball are among the most reliable of player types to rank – certainly ranking well above mediocre, 22 year old, AA players that many have comically, ranked higher than Singleton.
20) Brandon Belt, 1b, Giants – 23 on April 20th – I know he’s hitting .118 but, he’s another kid who just feels like a big leaguer already. I think he’ll be the NL rookie of the year and have a fine career. I slot him in right here, ahead of Feeeman and Montero. I don’t even feel that apprehensive about it. I feel Belt could be the one whose offensive value I am selling short more so than Montero’s.
21) Freddie Freeman, 1b, Braves - 21 and ½ - I admit that ranking Freeman over Montero is more to make a point but, why, logically, should Montero be ranked so much higher? Or even higher at all? If Montero were really a Catcher I would understand but, I don’t believe he is, not for long anyways. Then, even if Montero actually hit better than Freeman, which he hasn’t, we’d still be left with Freeman’s advantages of being left-handed and actually contributing something with the glove. Honestly, I think they turn out to be similar players, at least in value.
22) Jesus Montero, c, Yankees – 21 years old – I keep trying to figure out what it is I don’t like about Montero ranking in the top 5 of nearly every list I saw this off-season. Answer? Nothing really, I guess I just don’t like him as much as you guys do. I don’t think he’s a Catcher for one and, for two, the more I watch him hit I think he is excellent – like, Billy Butler excellent. Billy Butler is a hell of a hitter but, I think Montero falls closer to that than Manny Ramirez and there is a difference there. He’s back at AAA Scranton, If you’ve been under a rock all spring.
23) Jaff Decker, LF. Padres - 21 years old - My Pal Pookie Johnstone "Aka, Worlds Greatest Scout" and Decker's blazing start to the AA year, reminded me how much I believe in Deckers bat. I always liked Jaffy and had him in my 50-60 range initially - higher than almost all. My two major feeling on him were that A) His Cal League season had about two months of great hitting lopped of at the beginning and end of the season and B) Concearns about his body, and or defense were way overblown. Jaff is an advanced young hitter in the Jason Kubel, Matt Stairs, John Kruk mold and I thought I'd show my love better late than never :) He also reminds me of the WHITEWASHING of Pablo Sandoval. He couldn't SNIFF a top 100 list, and it was ALL because of his appearance. We are 1464 PAs into his career and hes a .306 .358 .487 line and some people STILL are debating if he can hit or not... comical. I see similarities in Decker.
24) Lonnie Chisenhall, 3b, Indians – 22 and ½ - The Chiz Kid almost made the Tribe out of camp but, I guess they know something I don’t. I know, I know arbitration clock, blah, blah, blah – fine – just don’t complain when 8000 fans show up for your second game of the season okay? But, I digress. I think Chiz will be the next Travis Fryman. Chisenhall will begin the year at AAA
25) Zach Britton, lhp, Orioles – 23 years old – I don’t like his stuff as much as Oliver’s or Turners for that matter but, I do like it. He certainly has a more complete arsenal with the fastball, the sinking fastball, the slider, the change. I’m probably selling him short as he’s already doing well in the show but, predicting the future ain’t easy main.
26) Andy Oliver, lhp, Tigers – 23 years old – Sometimes I wonder what I am missing. How does a healthy armed lefty with a fastball between 93-97, that he commands well and combines with a very good change up – Johan Santana stuff basically – get completely overlooked by almost every major list this off-season? I don’t know but, I’m not going along with the groupthink. He excelled at AA and AA in his pro debut and returns to Toledo to start the season
27) Matt Moore, lhp, Rays - 22 in June - I admit I could be underranking this kid here but, clips of Matt Moore seem hard to come by. I find an interesting contrast between Moore and Oliver. One is ranked 15 by BA and one is ranked 87 or, usually, not at all. Moore has struck out all sorts of people, and appears to developing nicely, if a bit slowly. Meanwhile Oliver just rolled into AA and got hitters out, and struck out a decent amount of people, and throws just as hard. Is there THAT much difference between them really? Maybe there is but, I'd sure like to see Moore pitch to be sure. He could be the guy I'm wrong about the most
28) Jacob Turner, rhp, Tigers – 20 in May – This kid gets talked about less than newer, "shinier" kids like Shelby Miller and guys like that but, he is a special young pitcher. Like Martin Perez, he’ll be starting the year in AA ball at age 20. Unlike Perez, he has not struggled with command thus far in his pro career - 1.8 walks per nine. The only question for him, and it is a serious one, is health.
29) Yonder Alonso, 1b/of, Reds – 24 years old - I heard him described by one list maker this off-season as a player who will be a "plus hitter, with plus power", yet he ranked him out of the top 100 players. This is a familiar theme in prospect rankings this off-season, it seems. It’s a pet peeve of mine but, then again, it’s simple math that isn’t going to be 100+ good big league players in this class unless you believe it’s the greatest prospect class in the history of the game. I think Yonder is better than his minor league numbers have shown thus far but, he’s going to need a chance to show it soon here. I think he’ll surprise most when he does.
30) Drew Pomeranz, lhp, Indians -22 years old – No pro data, ‘til Friday night that is. It seems a lot of astute prospect hounds are discovering just how good Pom looks, despite the long layoff, and trusting thier own scouting instincts and ranking him highly. I have a sneaking suspicion this big lefty with the sweet, power delivery, might end up as better than the 29thbest player in this class but, I’ll stick him here for now – just hedging a little. He debuted for Kinston in the Carolina League last night and was sensational.
31) Kyle Drabek, rhp, Blue Jays – 23 years old – I probably don’t show enough faith in this kid as I should but, even if he has a solid career as a .500 caliber pitcher, that’ll still be easily one of the top 50 players in this class.
32) Wilin Rosario - 22 years old - I think hes going to be a very good big legue Catcher if he can keep his knees healthy. He's back at Tulsa to start 2011 - big year for him.
33) Mike Minor, lhp, Braves – 23 years old – I feel similarly about Minor as I do about Drabek – solid, mid –rotation starters.
34) Dayan Viciedo, rf, White Sox – 22 years old – I’m going to get killed for this one. Dayan is almost universally looked at as a bust and was left off of virtually every list. I say, look at his stats and the context of them, a little bit. Even some of your favorite top prospects might not have fared to well if they were shoved right into AA ball to start the 2009 season, or when they were 20, with no pro experience! Dominic Brown and Mike Moustakas weren’t even great A+ players in 2009, let alone ready for AA. I don’t even want to speculate on what Dustin Ackley would have hit in AA when he was 20 - gruesome. So when the "Cuban Tank" has a big year at AAA Charlotte this season, playing RF now, could we maybe not complain that he is repeating the league?
35) Jason Kipnis, 2b, Indians – 24 years old – Kipnis went to college, he hit just as well at Arizona State as Ackley did at UNC didn’t he? Jason also had to adjust to playing 2b in 2010. Kip has had no trouble hitting the baseball since he’s been a pro. He’s going to be a solid little second sacker for the Tribe. He joins Chisenhall at Columbus to start the season.
36) Randall Delgado, rhp, Braves – 21 years old - Another very good, young starter in the Braves player making machine they call their minor league system. A fastball with nice sink, a good change, good command and feel beyond his age. He’ll start the season in AA ball Mississippi.
37) Dustin Ackley, 2b, Mariners – 23 years old - I have a friend I trust, Pookie Johnstone, who makes a pretty compelling argument that Ackley is not only overrated but, that he isn’t even very good. I’ll admit that there sure seems to be a lot of hype surrounding a guy who neither contributed a good batting average (.267), good power (.404 slugging), nor good defense. I think his contact ability, batting eye, and hard work learning second base will make him a solid big leaguer. The next Adam Kennedy maybe? A tad better? Right now, he’s a Tacoma Rainier.
38) Jose Iglesias, ss, Red Sox – 21 years old – Those aren’t exactly great numbers from last year in the EL but, from watching him he just looks like a lot better hitter than that. Jose looks like kind of an old-school type of shortstop who chips in a lot of rallies and makes every play in the field. He’s 21 but, he’s playing at AAA already
39) Wilson Ramos, c, Nationals – 23 and ½ - To me he’s a been criminally underrated with the bat and his behind the dish skills are solid as a rock. He’s actually hit at every stop but one, and most everybody looking at focuses on his 2010 AAA stats for the Twins when looking at him. He’s a better hitter than he showed there.
40) Grant Green, ss, Athletics – 23 and a1/2- He’s a little old to be just starting AA but, he looks like a major league SS with the bat anyways. Maybe the A’s are commited to letting him grow into a decent SS in the field, If he can do it.
41) Tyler Matzek, lhp, Rockies – 20 and ½ - Tyler was severely reprimanded by the masses for – I don’t know what exactly – not being perfect I guess. He had a temporary dead arm spell and had some pretty predictable command issues but, hey only one of his peripherals were bad. He has his risks like most kid hurlers but, I’d roll the dice on him. Enjoy pitching in the Cal League kid!
42) Nolan Arenado, 3b, Rockies – 20 in a week – There are questions about this kid’s ability to play 3b but, little of the same about his contact ability, or power, or his selectiveness – he has little of that yet. Enjoy hitting in the Cal League kid!
43) Rubby de la Rosa, rhp, Dodgers – 22 years old – I was blown away watching Rubby pitch the Dodgers final spring game. I know it was the Mariners but, he moved through their lineup efficiently and confidently andtouched 99 occasionally. If he stays healthy . . . if he doesn’t end up in the pen . . .
44) Brett Jackson, of, Cubs – 22 and ½ - I may be selling Brett short but, he just doesn’t look like a CF to me and I’m just not sure he’s a star at the big league level. I like the Cubs decision to send him back to AA- give him a chance to have a big year.
45) Engel Beltre, cf, Rangers – 21 years – I know his hitting record doesn’t look like a future big leaguer. I know he hacks away mercilessly at almost every pitch but, he also glides out in CF, has a ton of natural athletic ability and is starting the year at AA Frisco at the age of 21. He’s come along way baby. Even if he doesn’t seriously break out this season he still has a chance to be as good as Julio Borbon doesn’t he?
46) Mike Montgomery, lhp, Royals – 22 in July – I know he’s had some injury issues but, I love kids who pitch off of the fast ball, especially when they have a good one like Montgomery does. He has a workable change and a usable curve but, he commands and knows how to use his bread and butter, his heat, which will serve him well in the big leagues in my opinion. He’s opening the year as the AAA club’s ace so we’ll find out how good, and how tough, he is this year. If it wasn’t this feeling I have about his arm health, he’d rank higher but, I’m rooting for him.
47) Tyler Chatwood, rsp, Angels - 21 years old- Last minute change here as Chatwood makes his big league debut tonigt ( 4/11/11). Im almost ranking him on GP, as he has top stufff in a compact, Roy Oswalt -like frame, yet has been almost completely IGNORED by prospect evaluators He keeps the ball low, attacks hitters, has great stuff and will learn to strike out hitters. I believe in the kid a lot.
48) Chris Sale, lhp, White Sox – 22 years old – I like everything about Chris Sale. The moxy, the three pitch mix, the human gumby body. I even like his much maligned delivery but, he just looks like he’s going to be too good, and too physically and mentally suited for his current relief role. This is NOT a bad thing at all. He’ll likely make millions doing it. He probably should be ranked higher actually but, it’s tough to overlook upside.
49) Zack Wheeler, rhp, Giants – 21 in May – It’d be real easy for the Giants to y enough send this thin kid with the great arm speed, and durability issues to the pen – and let him excel there. Regardless, he’s an arm you want to get a hold of.
50) Jerry Sands, of, Dodgers - 23 years old - I'm making my, one and only, change to my original list here with Sands. I'm not usually reactionary enough to change something based on a week of hot hitting but, his blazing start at Alqequerque reminded me of how much I like him. I think he becomes a power-hitting RF in the Corey Hart mold and, is a seriously underrated defender there as well. I won't make another change to this 'til mid-season but, Sands could be the rare player who goes from off peoples lists pre-season - to big league regular by mid-season.
Next guys: Paul Goldschmidt, 1b, DBacks, Aaron Crow, rsp, Royals, Manny Banuelos, lhp, Yankees, Craig Kimbrel, rhp, Braves, Ben Revere, cf, Twins, John Lamb, lsp, Royals, Danny Duffy, lsp, Royals, Simon Castro, sp, Padres, Tim Collins, lhp, Royals, Chris Archer, rhp, Rays, Derek Norris, c, Nationals, Martin Perez, lhp, Rangers, Micheal Choice, cf, Oakland, Dellin Betances, rhp, Yankees, Matt Davidson, 1b, Diamondbacks, Arodys Vizcaino, rhp, Braves, Jenrry Mejia, rhp, Mets, Desmond Jennings, of, Rays, Tony Sanchez, c, Pirates, Chris Carter, 1b/of, Athletics, Trey McNutt, rhp, Cubs, Christian Colon, ss, Royals, Kyle Gibson, rhp, Twins , Drew Cumberland, 2b, Padres, Jean Segura, 2b/ss, Angels, Anthony Rizzo, 1b, Padres, Wilmer Flores, ss, mets, Jared Cosart, sp, Phils, Tyler Pastornicky, ss, Braves, Chrisian Bethancourt, c, Braves, Jerrod Parker, sp, Dbacks, Neil Ramirez, rhp, rangers, Matt Harvey, rsp, mets, Mike Olt, 3b, Rangers, Jose Altuve, 2b, Astros, Jemile Weeks, 2b, A's, Brad hand, lsp, Marlins, James Darnell, 3b, Padres
The most overrated or players I do not think are going to be big leaguers: Casey Kelly, sp, Padres, Dee Gordon, ss, Dodgers, Trayvon Robinson, cf, Dodgers, Joe Benson, cf, Twins, Aaron Hicks, of, Twins
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I really liked the list except for the Moore ranking.
Punishing Moore because the Rays take every starting pitcher slowly isn’t fair. Moore has two plus-plus pitches and another one the has looked plus so far this year.
Add in the solid to good control (except for early last year) and he is a top 10 prospect.
Personally, I would take him over Teheran. Before I get called a homer, let me make my arguement.
Guys who develop quicker are liked much Moore. Over the past few years, Moore has seen an increase in velocity as he still develops. On the other hand, many other players develop very early and are physically in their peak around 20-23. That sounds crazy, but it is true for some players. Ever wonder why college b-ball players only play one year in college and then go on to do very well in the pros as rookies?
JMHO.
I see your point
Though I would say that 22 isn’t exactly a punishment. I just haven’t seen enough of him to say he’s a sure-fire-ace or close to it. As much as he has pitched, he remains somewhat of a mystery to me. I respect your opinion, becasue you may have seen him more than me.
I’ll admit it isn’t my favorite kind of ranking, putting him at 22. it’s kind of a “hedge”. I think he could be great – top 10, or he could have some command issues and not be that great – I don’t have a feel for it. in either case, he is ranked over a LOT of talented pitchers.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
I have seen several starts of his, not too much.
I agree that he is ranked over a lot of talented pitchers. But to be honest, what pitcher has more upside than him in the minors (that is somewhat close to the majors)? Maybe Teheran.
Aroldis
… is the very deffinition of upside.
For me, Taillon as well. he is seen as far away but, top talents are rarely very far away.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Since Aroldis is in the majors and probably won't come back down, I am not including him.
For me, it is hard to compara a guy like Moore with a guy like Tailon. They just are too far apart. I guess if we mean raw upside, then Tailon is higher. However, for just upside, it would go down to Teheran and Moore for me.
Hmm?
That sounds like what sombody says when they haven’t seen someone pitch. How do we know how far away taillon is? Shoot, the way the Rays handle Moore he’s 3 years from the bigs. I also don’t know the difference between “upsdie” and "pure upside " MM :)
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
I don't think I explained myself well enough.
There is a huge problem with upside. The fact is that it assumes everything will go right. If everything goes right, some random guy could be pumping out 100 mph fastballs. He would have to defy incredible odds though. I just don’t feel right comparing someone so raw to another player who is close to the majors.
The Rays have taken a year a level with Moore. If they continue to do that, he is only two years away.
And, for the record, I have never seen Tailon live. I have seen lots of video though.
Love the RDLR ranking
I think he could make his way to top 25. The kid has incredible stuff and it’s just a matter of time until he gets exposed to the rest of the world.
A single year of performance is a lott less important than you think it is.
That is all.
by slamcactus on Apr 9, 2011 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
It is also...
a lot more important than you think it is. A top 50 list should have a lot to do with the success(or lack of) the prospect has had the year before. Performance from even farther back and future performance should also be considered, but one is too far back and the other is too far forward. A guy like Dustin Ackley should have to prove last year was a fluke. We shouldn’t just assume he is still a great hitter because he did good in college ball. Failure must be replaced with success before success can be expected.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
by joegonzo on Apr 9, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't discount one year...
weighting it too much is a theme that runs through these entire rankings. My issue isn’t the rankings themselves, it’s casejud’s desire to be the one who “called it” which I think is a bad starting point for the rankings process.
Casejud won’t be shocked that he and I fundamentally see things differently though. We’ve hashed it out several times before. He believes what he believes, and it’s interesting to see the product of that thought process.
But yeah, way too much weight on a single year’s worth of performance, IMO.
You may be right
Don’t forget, I’m also ranking guys – without even a year of evidence – to rank them on, let alone just one year.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
I rank those guys too
or vote for them on the community list, rather, depending on their skills/tools. Probably lower than you, but whatever.
But seriously, I don’t want to criticize harshly or anything. You know we disagree and I do find your list interesting even though I’m personally not crazy about your process. Keep it up.
Dont sweat it
I dont much of this personally and I dont mind disagreement, in fact, I kinda enjoy it.
Besides, us M’s fans need to stick together. There aren’t many of us left! lol
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"+1 Well said joegonzo!"
Wonder if this happens if the remark was about any player but Ackley. lol
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Could you be....
damning Shelby Miller with more faint praise by comping him to AJ Burnett?
Albert Pujols is a god, and you my friend should be doing no less than groveling at his feet.
Comparing him to Burnett...
is a lot better than it seems. Burnett has “ace” abiility. Most of his problems are mental. If he were to bring it together, Burnett could be a Cy Young award winner. This was actually one of my favorite comps. Miller is definitly on the same talent level as Burnett, but I don’t think he will have the same problems Burnett has had.
ETHAN MARTIN!!!!
Good point
I was actually going to write that he was comparable to "AJ Burnett with better competitiveness but, I wanted to make the point that AJ would be a top 20 if he were being ranked today.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Burnett always had a million dollar arm
And a 10 cent head.
Hopefully Miller matures and learns how to pitch better than AJ has up to this point.
Wheres Jean segura?
Brandon Wood 4 Prez
by miketrout on Apr 9, 2011 3:27 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
off the list and rightfully so
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
Why is that?
I’d expect he’d at least make the just missed catergory
Brandon Wood 4 Prez
by miketrout on Apr 9, 2011 4:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I like Segura.
I haven’t seen him as much as I’d like but, Id put him squarely in my next 50 – he’s got a good shot at a career.
I wasn’’t as thorough with my “next guys” as my top 50, but I’ll add him.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
interesting list
I’m a fan of the aggressive rankings, makes it an interesting read. I disagree, of course, with some of them, but like the approach nonetheless.
Thanks packfan
congrats on the title!
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Love your placement of Wil Myers
Possesses everything you want in a hitter.
The Bad Guy
Twitter: @KBRandDewey
Like your list a lot
When you deviate from groupthink you give some legit reasons for doing so.
And, a couple of the guys you really like happen to be among my faves too. Oliver, Rubby, Franklin especially. I don’t share the love for Lee but I can see where you’re coming from.
Thanks
Take a look at Lee more maybe. i think he gets better the more people look at him. I think he’s a huge and underrated talent. Thanks for the comment though, i appreciate it.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
He's a risky guy, but I agree that people write him off too quickly
He lacks polish defensively but has the tools to be plus-plus at shortstop, and that alone would make him an MLBer, and I think he can provide offensive value through good OBP marks and baserunning.
He’s still rough around the edges defensively and has to prove that MLB pitchers won’t just knock the bat out of his hands, but I’m not sure why most people like Dee Gordon so much more than him. They project similarly, but Gordon’s two-and-a-half years older.
On my top-100 over at Beyond the Box Score, I put Lee at No. 52 and Gordon at No. 55.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm glad you like him
but If you think he’s going to be a plus defensive SS who is an average one offensively, that is better than the 52 player. You must not be that confident he’ll hit.
To me Gordon could be the 80th best prospect or the 197th, it doesn’t matter. None of those guys make it. I believe he has no chance.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
You believe in Lee that much but not Gordon?
My point was that they’re pretty similar. Both have the tools to be elite defensive shortstops but require some refinement, and both have some offensive upside thanks to hit/speed tools but will always be limited by lack of power.
I like Lee more because he’s younger, but in terms of athleticism they’re pretty similar, and I have a hard time seeing why you project Gordon to be so different.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee hit
.330 in the NW League when he was 18, and had a solid year in the MWL at 19 – with the bat. his development would have to go WAY backward for him to be the kind of hitter Dee Gordon was at AA last year.
A general rule but, one worth following IMO: Guys who are average players at thier postions in AA, at the age of 22, have a terrible track record in the big leagues.
You think thier ages is a fairly minor factor, I think think its big enough to make them COMPLETELY different prospects.
I also dock Gordon for not playing baseball when he was younger, instead of giving some imaginary bonus points for it. That is development time he cant get back.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
But that ignores the scouting reports
Which say that Gordon projects as a plus defender at shortstop with plus speed, good contact skills and little power. Sounds an awful lot like Lee, no?
You can project Lee a bit more because he’s so much younger, which makes him the preferred prospect, but in reality they have similar projections.
You can’t just say that Gordon is screwed because he was average at Double-A as a 22-year-old and ignore the fact that scouts still love him, though.
Other people have said this, and I think I agree: you’re putting a bit too much stock into last year’s numbers and not enough into scouting reports. 2009 numbers might not trump 2010 numbers, but 2010-2011 scouting reports should trump 2010 numbers.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
I dont know what to tell ya Satch. Gordon was a 4th round pick, and Franklin was a 1st round pick – I’ve heard lots of positve “scout speak” about Franklin – and there’s nothing worse than hearing what some second – hand, generalized, “scout” supposedly says about a player, except maybe a third- hand version of the same.
I have zero evedence before me that ANY scout prefers Dee Gordon to Nick Franklin, let alone a consensus.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Brandon Wood was a 1st round pick
who was supposed to be a can’t miss prospect that everyone heard lots of positive reports on, but its obvious he’s missed. Players develop, but they also regress as well and Franklin could develop either way. Some people don’t view Franklin as special as others. I think he’ll be somewhere between but he could very well have contact issues and be forced to sacrifice power for contact as the quality of pitching goes up. Yes, he walked about 10% last year, so it may not be an issue, but the speculating is the fun if it.
Really liked your ranking of Ackley, I just dont see where the production matches the hype he is/was receiving.
by Looney4baseball on Apr 10, 2011 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks, Looney
Yes, it does look like he may have missed but, hes still playin’ and I think its actually rarer for top guys to miss than people think.
About Ackley, I’ll have to agree with your agreeing. I see Franklin as the Ms top position prospect.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
My problem with the H-J Lee ranking
Is moreso the Reyes comp. I don’t think his glove will be quite that good, and he certainly has nowhere near that kind of speed. The hit tools might be similar, but I am not convinced Lee will have Reyes’ power.
U may be right on the power
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/05/10/full-scouting-report-cubs-prospect-hak-ju-lee/
The Jose Reyes’ comps are pilierre’s but, I have seen him in person and his speed and defensive actions are CRAZY good. I actually saw him out of the batters box in Arizona in 2009 and i said “Whos that!?”. I didn’t know who he was before I saw him. His glove has a chance to be be really special, hios speed is freakinbg fantasic, and I think he’ll hit as well.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
You're undderrating Lee's glove and speed
The guy has top-level speed, and even though he’s somewhat raw defensively the consensus is that he has the tools to be elite if it all comes together.
But yeah, Lee’s not going to have Reyes’ pop.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps
I ‘ll say this though . . what is Reyes’s pop? Call it about 15 homers right? Lee hasn’t hit many, as of yet, but he does look wiry strong to many, and has a good build.
Espentially I agree with you but, I do think Lee can hit. Its not that I think Lee will be as good as Reyes but, that he’ll be close – and that is a top 20 player.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Are we sure about that though?
I know the glove has great potential, so one could argue both ways there. But I’ve never heard a 75 put on Lee’s speed – which is essentially what Reyes was when he first hit the bigs. Lee has more like 60-65 speed – well above average but still not in Reyes territory. If you have read or heard something different, I’d love to see the link.
Here's what Frankie Piliere said about Lee last year
“Lee has 7 or perhaps even 8 speed on the 2-8 scouting scale and he runs the bases exceptionally well for a player his age. He gets good jumps and showed very good instincts going from first to third.”
And here’s a link to that page.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
No problem Guru
It’s a pretty strong scouting report huh?
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Just to clarify on the glove
I guess my point was Lee’s glove is still raw. He has the potential to be every bit as good as Reyes, but it is still projection at this point. Lee is NOT Jose Iglesias – where you can truly say his D matches some of the best in the bigs.
Absolutely, agreed.
Iglesias is already a plus defender at shortstop, and he might already be plus-plus.
Lee makes lots of mental mistakes and isn’t nearly as polished as Iglesias- but the point stands that tools-wise, he’s capable of being a similarly brilliant defender. Doesn’t mean he’ll reach that potential, though. Seems very, very likely to be at least average to above average, though, right?
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks
Formatting issue, my bad
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Moore
Good list, but I think Moore’s upside is sick. The numbers are there AND the scouting reports. I respect your decision to downgrade on guys you haven’s seen alot, though, and admit getting a ton of footage on Moore is difficult. The footage I have seen makes him look like Kershaw, with a little less velo and a little more movement. If he learns, like Kershaw seems to finally have, to trust his stuff and not strike everybody out, he will go deep into games. Bottom line is that he has #1 potential.
joe benson is batting .464 right now
that is all
(also his defense alone in CF, LF or RF will get him to the big-leagues)
He’s at least at least a Brian Anderson, Mitch Maier type of OF for me
But I respect you’re opinion I’m sure you have valid thoughts/opinions.
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 9, 2011 11:51 PM EDT reply actions
Sorry
I know you are a big Twin guy, and I wish him well. He has a good chance to make the big leagues as a defensive guy, but that isn’t what we are generally talking about here.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
I mean, the speed/power combination is clearly there with Benson
But his primary issue is a long swing that leads to high K rates. Not sure why you’d knock Benson so hard for the swing/contact issues and then say that it’s no big deal for Franklin.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
You aren't?
Well, because there is a lot more to a player than how much he strikes out, for one.
For two, Nick Franklin was an EXCELLENT player in the MWL at the age of 19.
Joe Benson was a good one at the EL at the age of 22.
When Benson was 19 he was at the MWL too and hit .255 with 5 homers and 38 RBI, slugged .368.
I like Franklin because he appears to have a lot more talent at hitting a a baseball.
Good 19 year old players tend to grow to be a lot better. Players who took until 22 to be good at AA dont tend to grow into anything much, at the big league level.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
You're putting too much stock into the numbers
Benson’s improved A LOT since he was 19, and the scouting reports are not that different from Franklin’s: should provide defensive value, has good power, takes some pitches, but a long swing leads to lots of K’s.
Of course you like Franklin more, so do I, that’s not the point.
The point is that these guys have similar profiles, and yet you regard one as one of the best prospects in the game and the other is essentially a fringe prospect. That’s totally unreasonable and inconsistent. If you have major concerns about Benson, you should at least be somewhat concerned about Franklin.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont think so
I think that If Franklin hit .250 with 20 homers at AA, 3 years from now, that would be a very unforseen setback. he would be going way backward in his development.
I see them as totally differnt calibers of players. A player with Franlins skills, at his age, is more likely to be a big league regular when he is 22 than in AA.
Benson took 4 YEARs of hard work to become a decent player at AA ball. While I admire that, those kinds of players don’t become stars very often. Sure, an occasional Andres Torres happens but…
I am not AT ALL concearned about Franklin. He is entitled to have a few things he needs to work on after having such outstanding sucess in his first, full-season.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
But you're assuming that Franklin is going to make all of these adjustments
And you’re making them sound awfully small, too. Yeah, he’s flashed some great power in Single-A.
But given where his K/BB was at last season, he’s still very far away from being MLB ready. Just because he’s capable of making these improvements doesn’t mean he will.
If Benson took four years to make that leap in performance, why are you assuming that Franklin absolutely positive won’t have the same issues?
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 10, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Um
Because Franklin is already an excellent player, at age 19, and Benson wasn’t.
I also don’t use any words like “absolutely or positively” when desrbing anybody really. The odds are greater for sucess for those who are young and very good though and I dont see any REASON Franklin would be any different. In fact, he gets described as being a “baseball rat”, extremely dedicated, and having good makeup. I dont put huge stock into that stuff, because anybody who speaks has biases but, I wouldn’t say its a negative.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
But don't you pretty clearly have biases, too?
And wouldn’t it make sense to trust the scout with years of experiences and his bias rather than you, assuming you aren’t a legitimate scout?
You’re also acting as if strong performance at Single-A is the same as strong performance at Double-A, when they’re really quite different. If Franklin is the same player at Double-A that he was in the MWL, he’s going to struggle some unless he makes a good deal of adjustments, and it seems like you’re just assuming that he will because he’s a good guy.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 11, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope
I have no idea what kind of guy he is really? All I said was that his makeup was not a negative, I have heard nothing that would lower him in that way.
i assume he will because he was young for his league at the MWL and those players have an excellent track record.
i also trust myself over scouts because A) I dont get to talk to scouts every day B) I do not count someonje saying they heard something from a scout as talkinmg to a scout C) I dont believe or have any evidence of any group of scouts having the opinion yousay.Some scouts love Franklin as far as i know.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Right, lots of scouts love Franklin
But they still acknowledge that there’s a small chance that he’s a second baseman, and his long swing may be an issue. I would argue that you’re underrating those two things, which are very real.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 11, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I may be
… but, just to be open about how i really feel. Im actually even MORE off the path than you think. Wil Myers is a great hitting prospect, by all acounts, and my #5 prospect.
Myers hit .289 in the samer league Franklin hit .281 in, at the same age.
im not any more concearned that Frankllin Kd 215 of the time he came to the plate, than I am that that myers only did so 18% of the time.
Just like Im not concerned about Myers’s power because he homerd 3.4% of the time and Franklin did it 4.0%.
If Franklin becomes a econd-baseman, he will be a stroing hitter at a tough position – doesn’t change much for me .
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Here's a question for you Satch
… dont you think it is more reasonable that maybe you guys are placing WAY TOO MUCH EMPHASIS on Franklins strikouts, like many people who doubtedMmike Stanton last year?
If he hits the same as Wil Myers last year, I dont see a logical reason to not rank him as If he was somethinmg close to Wil Myers- who plays an up the middle position. Quite a player right?
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
No, because Stanton is has more power and better patience, not to mention that he's very unique, as I said before.
Strikeout issues like Franklin’s are a common problem for players like him. Sometimes they figure it out. Sometimes they don’t. That isn’t reflected in your ranking.
Myers not only has a build that indicates that his power is more substantial than Franklin’s, but his swing does as well. Myers is an all-around better hitting prospect given those two things in particular. Not to mention that Myers had a monster walk rate and spent half the year at a higher level than Franklin.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 12, 2011 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Those things are all true
…but so were the things i said about Franklin.
I think the fact they hit similairily in the MWL says something there. Franklin didn’t even strike out a whole lot more than Myers.
By the way, I must have heard 10 -15 people mention something about Franklin’s walk rate and that is just bizarre. For his first season – considering how much sucess he had – it was pretty good.
I also think it is odd to give myers credit for power when he hit for a tad less power. Just because of his size huh? Im not buying that at all. They both are good, young power hitting prospects- seems more logical to me.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"i also trust myself over scouts because A) I dont get to talk to scouts every day"
Oh dear…hahahahahahahahahaha
by blackoutyears on Apr 13, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
To be clearer, If I sat next to a scout at a baseball game I would be VERY interested in him and totally listen to him.
However, I DONT, and they aren’t even allowed to talk about thier orginizations players like that.
here’s the thing – most or all of the people here who say “listen to the scouts!” ASLO don’t talk to any scouts, at least not any current ones.
When somebody says, for instance “Scouts say Nick Franklin wont stay at SS”. I have ZERO idea of… which scouts? How many? What percentage of the scouts feel this way?
How about if 5 scouts feel one way and 5 feel the other about a player?
id just prefer to look at the info and make my own decision anyways Ok?
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Why would people report things as general industry consensuses
when that’s not the case? Because generally people say “scouts say blah blah blah..” that’s because it’s been reported as an industry consensus.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 13, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Or at least a general sentiments, if they're not consensuses
It would seem to be silly to me to simply assume that these sentiments are wrong based on your own eyes. And it’s not like one evaluator said those things about Franklin.
He might move to second, but he’ll be above-average if he has to probably. His swing is long and he might strikeout a lot, which will limit his batting average, but the power is impressive for a middle infielder.
I really like Franklin, and that’s reflected by calling him a top-60 prospect. But top-10 status should only be reserved for potentially special players, like Bryce Harper, and guys with star potential that are close to the majors, like Domonic Brown. Guys with star potential that need a few years to develop, like Franklin, don’t belong in the top-10.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 13, 2011 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree
I dn’t think the “years away” matter at all in making a ranking, unless they are in junior high or something.
I also think that if you think Franklin will be a power-hitting, good secondbaseman, who hits .260 that makes him a LOT btter player than 60th best. ^0th is reliver territory or, out of the big leagues. there aren’t 60 future major league regulars in ANY given, minor league year. Go check if you want. I’ll wait.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
That's simply not logical, though
Not only is value today worth more than value tomorrow, but that extra development time means more time for things to go wrong. It also means he has more time to work on his issues, but if he didn’t have those issues he’d be closer to being MLB-ready in the first place.
And your last point doesn’t even matter. The point is that 50 guys project to be as good or better than him. There are absolutely 50 guys that project better than a 25-homer, .260/.330 BA/OBP hitter that plays average defense at shortstop. That’s a 3-4 WAR player. There are 50 guys who project to be better than that.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 13, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont believe there is
I dont like to talk in WAR langiueage but, I dont think 50 + guys project to be that good on a regular basis.
I have 30 years of BA lists that show me that isn’t close to being true Satch.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
But there are 50 guys that project to be that good
The point is that Franklin only projects to be a 3-4 WAR player, and there are absolutely 50 players who project to be more than that.
Just because they might not end up reaching that potential doesn’t matter, because the same applies to Franklin. And in many cases, those players are actually closer to their ceilings than Franklin anyways.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 14, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
lt’s a bit of speculation anyways? I obviously disagree on both Franklin’s potential as a player and the amount of players that project to be as good as you say.
Also Franklin is about 2-3 solid months away from AA ball, and could be a big leaguer by next season. Very good talents have a way of forcing thier way to the show.
I’m just not interested in who is close to thier ceiling. I’m interested in who is going to be the best players.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
You don't want guys who are close to reaching their ceilings?
Aren’t those guys generally going to be the best players by definition? If he’s close to reaching his ceiling and he’s not a good player, then he’s not really a prospect, right?
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 15, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, I do want that
Except all of these players we are discussing are only HYPOTHETICALLY close to reaching thier ceilings as big league players.
The closeness of a Domonic Brown or a Nick Franklin is to, or that they will, is debatable.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Interstin'
Its probably too late to notice this now but, in an indirect way, this is exactly what I am saying.
If Domonic Brown is already 23 and 1/2 yeard old and isn’t a good player yet I’ll take someone who is 20 and is a better prospect.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"that extra development time means more time for things to go wrong."
Satchel FTW.
by blackoutyears on Apr 18, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Not yet
We’ll have to see a few years down the road if the players who were closer actually do any better than the players I like who are farther away.
We’ll see.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
why would they? because they dont know the consensus any more than I do
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Right.
The guys who make a living out of talking to scouts and people within the game aren’t any closing to knowing the industry consensus than you are. That totally makes sense.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 13, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah well
I may not know how to use blockquote but i know a little about baseball.
That wasn’t what I was really trying to say. I pay attention to what a lot of people say but, I’d prefer to make my own evaluations, in the end.
If thats too arrogant for you, thats fine but, I want some of ME in this process. I have my own outlook.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
You can have your own outlook by synthesizing information
And coming to a conclusion based on that information.
When I made my top-100, I didn’t simply regurgitate the rankings of other evaluators. I read the reports, watched some guys, considered proximity to the majors, upside, floor, tools, experience, pedigree and everything else, and then came to conclusions based on all of that. Are you saying that I’m not included in that entire process simply because every piece of information that I used wasn’t directly supplied by myself?
I don’t think it’s arrogant. I just don’t think it’s sensible, and it’s the kind of attitude that doesn’t exactly endear you to people.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 14, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, thats an interesting point
I have strong opinions but, Im a pretty good guy, so I guess I won’t worry about being endearing too much. I’d rather a few people think I’m sharp than think I’m a real sweetie.
Anyways, back to baseball, I don’t think you are regurgitating – i haven’t even seen your list to criticize. My own PERSONAL axe to grind is seeing lists, every year, that rank lower upside players ahead of MONSTERS!
I saw a number of lists last year that had a potential, future hall of fame talent just behind Desmond Jennings, who is a 24 year-old player that isn’t even a good AAA player.
I’m just trying to eliminate these mistakes. Thats all.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Mike Stanton
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"I’d rather a few people think I’m sharp"
Let’s stop here. I think you need to work on this before our next session. lol
by blackoutyears on Apr 18, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
…well, I think its a breakthrough to admit one wants to be thought of as smart by some.
it beats “I dont care what anybody thinks”, which a lot of people may say but, dont really meen.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Why?
To me he projects as a Shortstop, who switch hits, brings 25 homers, a good average, nice defense, good baserunning and speed, can take a walk. Pretty damned goood player.
How many position players are out there right now that are better than that? Desmond Jennings, for instance, isn’t even a really good AAA player and he’s been foisted off as a top 10 guy for a couple years now.
Laugh all you wan’t Buddy.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
+1
he definitely has the potential to bring more value than a guy like jennings who consistently gets ranked top 15
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Apr 10, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Franklin
I will continue the discussion on Franklin here. He’s a very intriguing prospect, in that he was thought of as a glove-first but somewhat questionable bat coming out of HS, and after making his full season debut all of a sudden he is a bat-first, questionable glove guy. TONS of scouts are questioning whether he can stick at SS. He probably moves to 2B in the end based on what I have read thus far… and if you believe that he’s probably not a top 10 guy. I have him in the 30-40 range myself due to those questions on the glove.
If he improves the D and silences the critics about his D, he certainly deserves the #7 ranking though.
regarding your Dom Brown write up, Shin-Soo Choo is a star player
Maybe not in terms of fame, but he definitely is a star in terms of his on-field ability and production. Over the span of 2008 to 2010, the only OFer to have a higher wRC+ than Choo is Matt Holliday (Choo went .302/.397/.500 over that span).
Gotcha
I was thinbking that when I wrote that actually – that somebody sharp would point out that If I think he’ll be like Choo, then Brown should rank higher :) I guess my point is that Im saying maybe? Choo is a more rreasonable upside for Brown than Strawberry. darryl was abig league star by the time he was Browns age. Choo got a tad of a late start as well.
No slight on Choo though, I recognize he’s a very good player- just maybe not as good as Strawberry was.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
i hate people like that
typical ranger :)
go long with extenze...i do
by angelsownredsux on Apr 10, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
While 15 is too high on Lee...
I love the enthusiasm. I feel the same way about him. Guy is a smooth mofo on the field and as a hitter. Very effortless player…and I mean that in the good way obviously.
Thanks
You sound like someone who has seen Lee play some? I saw him in spring and was just shocked at how good-looking – smooth, tall, quick, fast – of an athlete he was. I though he looked like a future all star. Then I read that Pilierre scouting report on him and quit doubting myself.
You may be right about ranking him oo high but, most people ranked him lower than 70, sometimes way lower, and I don’t think they would If they had seen him play.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Caught some 2010 ST on TV and he caught my eye. Also there's clips online...
where it’s pretty easy to see how loose and athletic of a player he is. He’s extremely projectable and I’ve said since last year that he’s got star talent at the SS position. He’s a really confident player.
Favor?
Would anyone mind recommending my list here? I’d to have more discussion on it here and don’t want to see it burried in the next day to. Please? I’ve never asked before. :)
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Hating on the Dodgers with your Trayvon and Gordon predictions I see, lol. But not a bad list. I tend to follow stats more than I do anything else. I hate when people say “project able power”. I know it’s been said about Loney for near a decade, and most everyone knows what really happened. I trust stats, and it looks like this is what you are looking at as well more than anything.
"If we hit that bull's eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate"
Thanks LV
I do actually look at stats. Weird, i know. By the way, this is the year with Loney Man, this is the year :) Oh and I like Rubby De La R, and Jerry Sands so it all hatin’ on the Dodgers man. lol
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
I would love to hope you are right, but Loney is doing a piss poor job so far
Idk if you have watched him at all, but oh man he is looking terrible with the bat so far. I mean he’s got very good defense…but so does Casey Kotchman :(
"If we hit that bull's eye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate"
Ouch
I watched Kotchman all last year, here in Seattle. As much as I could stand it anyways. As bad as Loney may suck somnetimes, he’s better than THAT at least. He’ll turn it around, it’s early Buddy. Stay the course!
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Little early
to give Profar top 20 considerations no? The only thing we are really sure at the moment is that he’s pretty natural at short and has as good a chance as any to stick there and that his age/league is phenomenal.
We don’t know
How big his body will get and how affected his defense will be.
How, if any, significant power will develop.
How good of a contact hitter he is.
The closest comparison prospect wise has to be Andrus. But Andrus has about 6 months on Profar as far as development/level goes and there is still no telling how good of a major league hitter Andrus is going to be.
I just think it’s too early to place him ahead of guys like Dom Brown, Brandon Belt, Freddie Freeman and Desmond Jennings.
Mourning Guy Carbonneau...
Royals obscure player to watch in ST: Lenny DiNardo
by playingwithfire on Apr 11, 2011 4:18 AM EDT reply actions
I guess I'd have to say "no", no?
I think you can go ahead and rank certain players,like Profar, earlier than most people do. If he’s going to be Andrus, sign me up. By the way, Id rather be “early” than “late”, which is what the 23 and 1/2 year old Brown, and the 24 year old Jennings are.
The closer we are to the top of a list, in any given year, we should be trying to nail the future STARS. Most big league stars are already stars by the time they are 23 or 24.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"I always here that the order of a list isn't important on here and it annoys me."
It’s probably only annoying if you misread it. What most are saying is that it’s not worth arguing over whether a player at 15 should be ranked over a player at 18. Obviously if you have a guy in the Top 30 that everyone else sees in the 80s that would be debatable. I still maintain that it’s better to think of these players in tiers, or groups, of talent based on ability and likelihood of realizing it.
Sure
I agree, to an extent. Sometimes the differences in numbering meen more than in others. I guess I’m more agaainst the concept of “Well, I like Jon Singleton, or Nick Franklin, or Jurrickson Profar, but I want to wait to see how they do in AA ball before I rank them higher”
I think we should be trying to do more with less data, if we can. I don’t mind debating my post. thats why I posted it. I think many players are put in the 60, 70, 80 range that should be way higher. 70 actually meens – not a big leaguer! There aren’t 70 big leaguers in one year EVER.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"Well, I like Jon Singleton, or Nick Franklin, or Jurrickson Profar, but I want to wait to see how they do in AA ball before I rank them higher"
Well, to be fair, Singleton and Profar seem to be two guys that most lists have pretty high for their sample size and level of experience. Wasn’t Singleton in the 30s or 40s on a lot of lists? That’s plenty high.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
30 or 40?
that puts him on the “questionable regular” end of an average season. i doubt that was his average rank anyways. ill check…you are right, 34 on the major lists.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"I think we should be trying to do more with less data, if we can."
I have no idea what this means, especially in the context of ranking prospects. And you’re way off on a player ranked in the 70s not being a big leaguer. Presumably not every player on the list has to make it to the bigs this year. You may be against ranking players with low-minors or no-minors performance in the second half of a Top 100 but there’s a reason that’s the norm. It’s probably tied to your issues with floor being correlative to proximity to the majors, which is confusing. If you want to ignore the significance of conquering Double-A in player evaluation that’s your prerogative, but it seems pointlessly contrarian. Player development is a simple, linear path for only the most elite players.
And to be clear
when I say “against ranking players with low-minors or no-minors performance in the second half of a Top 100” I mean a desire to rank many of them higher based on ceiling rather than showing appropriate restraint. For the vast majority of players, it’s much more rational to demand that they prove themselves at meaningful levels.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
fair enough
I believe that Full-season A ball is a MUCH more meaningfull level than most prospect evealuators are giving it credit for then… especially when the player is 18 or 19
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Who are these prospect evaluators?
And are you really proposing that your opinion is more valuable than that of professional evaluators, who’ve seen thousands of players, often over the course of decades?
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, no
I’m just proposing that I have my own way of looking at things. If the other lists were more accurate, i wouldn’t feel this way.
yes, I think I can do better in some cases. i’ve been watching baseball for a long time and, i can see RESULTS.
For instance, Im a Mariner fan, sort of. In recent years tey have been in position to draft Jason Heyward, Ryan Zimmerman, Troy Tulowitski, Tim Lincecum – and they haven’t. I think I could have done better yes.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
By the way
.. to extend my arrogance, i also believe that I am NOT ALONE. I also think that many people who are outside of the baseball industry, like maybe even YOU, or others posting on here would make excellent professional basebal evaluators.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"I think I could have done better yes."
A suitable epitaph. lol
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome
I can’t even THINK I could have done even a LITTLE better than “terrible”, without being considered arrogant? LOL
Ok, I KNOW I could have done better!
Why do I get an epitaph anyways? Am I now dead, or something. I dont get it.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"Why do I get an epitaph"
Icarus. lol
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
And yes,
thinking that you’re better equipped than a baseball FO to evaluate and draft players is not only arrogant, but ludicrous. Seriously.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What is an FO?
If YOU think that YOU are not as equipped to evaluate basball players as Keith Law or Kevin Goldstein then YOU are not aware of your own abilities or, that of many others lurking around here. It isn’t just me.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Front Office
Neither Law nor Goldstein is drafting for a major league team, and both have made clear that they’re not equipped for the job.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
Then we are off-track then. Im entitled to be delusonal enough to think i can evaluate players better than Bill Bavasi but, i digress.
I was only comparing myself to people who make prospect lists and, i suppose i thought you meant guys like Golstein and Law.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"I was only comparing myself to people who make prospect lists"
So the Mariners FO makes prospect lists?
“In recent years [the Mariners] have been in position to draft Jason Heyward, Ryan Zimmerman, Troy Tulowitski, Tim Lincecum – and they haven’t. I think I could have done better yes.”
by blackoutyears on Apr 13, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine
Forget about MY arrogant ass for a second though B.O.Y
I think you are selling YOURSELF short. I assume, by your reprimanding of me, that you also don’t think YOU could do better as an FO.
If you don’t think could do a little better, than Bill Bavasi’s very WORST decisions, I don’t know what to tell you. Dare to dream I guess.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
The wise man knows
what he does not know. It is the mediocre who overestimate their abilities.
by blackoutyears on Apr 18, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
On restraint
I think the reason why some place this emphasis on restraint is that dont place a corresponding penalty on themselves when they rank a player too low.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"penalty"
I’m sorry, but is there something at stake here? I didn’t realize we needed to institute punitive measures when evaluating players. You follow players, some make it, some don’t, you try to divine a pattern. You’ve got a long way to go before your hubris is justified. IMO the proof of an evaluator lies not in the ability to predict stars — most stars were consensus talents — but to predict the guys who aren’t stars but who have major league ability. You’re arguing over where Profar falls on a Top 100 list when a Top 100 is the tippy-top percentile of prospects? You need to realize how absurd that is.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Right!
If we need no “penalty”, then we need no “retraint” !
Exactly my point. Since there IS nothing at stake why do I need to show “restraint”?
Why do need to restrain myself when i think a player is very good?
Incidently, I do this as though there WAS something at stake. Thats part of the fun of the excercise for me :)
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"If we need no "penalty", then we need no "retraint""
False logic. Restraint is generally admirable on its own merits, regardless of stakes or penalty.
And the restraint you need to show is not in rankings, but in unwarranted self-esteem. lol
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Fine
I hate myself and Im an idiot, better? :)
anyways, moving on, that isnt how you referred to restraint the first time. you refered to it when ranking players lower showing restraint therby emplying there is something at stake.
even if you say the restraint is just internal, and admirable on its own merits, Id argue that an internal penalty for being wrong on something is equally admirable.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
an internal penalty
That’s a great idea. If only this whole enterprise were internal…
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Aww
You are enjoying this or getting anything out of it b.o.y? I enjoy discussing this kind of stuff. If you aren;’t enjoying it, I think you are smart enough to do whats next right?
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"getting anything out of it"
Hard to “get” anything from amateur hour, but it is amusing to tease out your biases and the flaws in your methodology. Yours is the same sort of human impulse that led to the pursuit of alchemy I reckon. lol
by blackoutyears on Apr 13, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Shoot
I guess thats not a compliment huh? :)
At least you are getting some amusement. I was worried there for a bit. You seemed kinda ticked off.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Absurd
Itmay be but, we – as a group of people evealuating – still put a guy like Ryan Braun like 30th on a list in agiven year. I think we should master getting the obvious before we move on.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
It meens, ANYBODY can wait and see how they'll do at AA. theres no skill in that.
If you are making a LIST, presumably the purpose is to have a list that resembles, 5-10 years down the line, a list of the top future major leaguers from that year. Since EVERY season has about 20-30 guys who make it as regulars, and another 30 or so who have some sort of career, if you put a position guy at 70 you are “passing” on him. You are either saying he probably wont make it, you are uncertain, or you like 69 guys better.
I’m not the person who corralates high floor to proximity to the majors. I rarely talk about floor/ceiling at all. I think most guys desribed as low floor are guys like hellickson – who is close. And a typical “high ceiling” guy is usually a far from the majors player. Its not my concept but, that is how i see it used often.
I’m not at all interested in what the “norm” is in how a list is made. I think the mnorm has flaws and Id rather do it my own way.
I’m not at against the significance of conquering AA ball but, unfortunately, many of the best players on this years list haven’t played there yet and, I can’t ignore them. I need to make a judgement on them. Like if I was drafting them. You snooze, you lose.
I am mostly focused on finding these elite players you speak of.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Multiple issues here
If the guys in the 20s and 30s are high minors performers and the highest of ceiling guys then that’s appropriate. All most lists are saying with guys in the 70s are that there’s more doubt, and that group may be a conglomeration of moderate ceiling high floor guys, high ceiling/indeterminate (due to experience level or age) floor guys. You are not passing on that guy, you’re saying that you need more data before moving him up.
Hellickson is not a low floor guy. Anyone who says that is as cloudy on ceiling/floor as you’ve admitted to being. If anything he’s been promoted as a high floor pitcher with a slightly lower ceiling than other elite pitching prospects.
You say you want to find the elite, which is fine. If that’s truly the case though you may want to start limiting your list to a Top 10 or 15.
No one’s saying accept the norm, but you should demonstrate that you understand it before you disregard it.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant high floor
… in regards to Hellickson, obviously. I understand the concept plenty. i just dont care for it.
i already limited my list to 50 and some of the guys from 40-50 will become stars, Im sure. How about I just make my list as long as I want and, you can make your 200 players or whatever you like OK? does that work for ya Bud?
I look at my list as a draft board in which if you hesitate on someone you like, you dont get the player.
You look at your more as a merit system. where after you earn things, you move up. thats fine but, I just dont like that way of ranking prospects.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"I look at my list as a draft board. You look at your more as a merit system."
No, the difference is I don’t confuse my draft board with a ranking.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, fine
I dont understand that but, whatever.
The bottom line is when Imdrafting Im going with the young player who showed some talent in full-season ball. You can afford to wait, for whatever reason.
Why wouldn’t a numbered draft board be a ranking? Its sort of the “ultimate ranking”, isn’t it? Ultimately its what one really thinks about any given players when one has to choose between them right?
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"Why wouldn’t a numbered draft board be a ranking?"
1) In my long-term league there are, on average, three or four players in a BA Top 100 (for sake of example) who are not already drafted in a given year. None of them are in the Top 50.
2) I believe in diversification.
3) My draft board pertains to the needs of my team, not a vacuum.
I’m drafting 2013 draft eligible h.s. pitchers. I think I might be a little ahead of you on the whole “you snooze, you lose” thing.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
You CERTAINLY are. I know none of them. Im in a couple of leagues and the format doesn’t quite allow me to draft that far ahead and that does shape my thoughts on how to draft.
if you are drafting that far ahead the scarcity of significant eveidence and the players ages would make one way more inclined to be conservative and play the percentages. That makes sense.
Im place less emaphisis on "need’ when drafting than i do on “dont miss a quality player here”. That makes me more discerning and I like to think Im getting better at not making major errors when drafting. trading is another story.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"if you are drafting that far ahead the scarcity of significant eveidence and the players ages would make one way more inclined to be conservative"
Not sure what’s “conservative” about drafting h.s. sophomores and college freshman…
by blackoutyears on Apr 13, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Conservative
“Conservative” as in you don’t usually put on of them at the very top of your board? Its not conservative to select them but, it may be to draft them high. Thats what I meant.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
No, they're taken quite high
I took Gausman and Giolito (both 2012) with my first two picks. Garrett Williams, a top 2013 h.s. starter, was taken a few picks later. I mention it only to highlight your inability to see how your rankings/evaluations are a function of your limited paradigm. Conservative is an entirely relative term.
by blackoutyears on Apr 18, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
This sounds good, but it isn't exactly true
I CAN see how my rankings are a result of my limited Paradigm but, I also see them as having a more universal value. It is still, essentially, a list of which players I like best.
I have 2 leagues I particpate in in, both Diamond Mind Leagues, a pretty fair simulation of real baseball. In one, we 5 minor league (or any College or HS guy) spots, in the other we have 10. Not a whole lot of space to draft HS players except the occasional one perceived as a monster or a can’t miss.
If we expanded to 30 non-major leaguers, it would emmediately become the norm to draft and look at the hS level more and wouldn’t be a non-conservative form of drafting. It would be necessary to try and win. I can see that it is relative.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
As for this:
“I’m not at against the significance of conquering AA ball but, unfortunately, many of the best players on this years list haven’t played there yet and, I can’t ignore them. I need to make a judgement on them. Like if I was drafting them. You snooze, you lose.”
Not every player needs to conquer AA to be ranked, but most do. You’re acting as if most lists don’t aggressively rank elite players with little or no minor league experience which is demonstrably false.
More importantly, is this about the players or about you? Questionable.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont mind
.. it being more about me actually. i do have kind of a point to make but, at the same time, these are my honest rankings.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
There's no doubt
that these are your rankings, but why are we supposed to care? Because you’re a visionary? lol
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody said you should
… or would. You put out the list, you put some thought into it, maybe someone will care. We’ll have to see on the visionary thing.
I think I have spotted at least something, which Im actually shocked isnt easy to see. I think the significance of age relative to league is even GREATER, than anybody currently ranking is giving it credit for. If thats visionary – great!
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
ARL
You’ll have to demonstrate exactly what the significance is to this monolithic other. I suspect you’re building a straw man without being fully conscious of it.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok
Nick Franklin 19
vs
Dee Gordon 22
your thought? Briefly, an example on what Im saying.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
I'll share mine
I think 19 year old players who are very good in the MWL have such a better historical track record than 22 year old ones in AA that they are almost completely un-comparable.
The consensus, top 9 major lists, ranked Franklin 44 and Gordon 53. I think Gordon is almost a non-prospect – anywhere from 100 to 300 – and Franklin is a top 10.
Others, on average, think they are similar. I think that is a fundamental difference.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
RE
I think 19 year old players who are very good in the MWL have such a better historical track record than 22 year old ones in AA that they are almost completely un-comparable.
The sample sizes you are drawing from are far to small for this to matter.
Bullpen Banter's Top 100 Prospects for 2011!
- - - - - - - -
You can find my musings at Bullpen Banter and Beyond the Box Score.
I dont know
When I make a comparison i usually use similar, recent, players, in the same league for argument but, minor league data goes back for decades, and thousands of players.
I think it is significant that nobody who has hit like dee Gordon has done anything interesting in the majors, since 1992, which is the earliest. I can find OBP and SLUGGING.
I honestly think you write it off without loking at it much, or at all.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
I've already seen
your take on this, and you’ve probably forgotten my response at that time. Gordon is not a typical 22-year-old and treating him as such is flawed imo. You want simplistic, boiled-down premises and there are precious few of those in player development. ARL is one of a host of factors I weigh when evaluating, and it’s weighted differently for each one.
by blackoutyears on Apr 11, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Right
I also belive his “atypicality” is ALSO a negative. Not playing baseball during crucial development yeats does not make him some sort of prodigy. thats deveopmental time he can never get back.
Its justy my opinion but, I think that whole line of thinking on Gordon is flawed.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
this is a good point
I dunno want to think of Gordon anymore…
Let me ask you this though CaseJud, If Alcides Escobar persistantly got ranked in the 20’s or even teens when he was a prospect on the verge…. How is Gordon that much different than Alcides?
I think Gordon should be a top 100 guy on anybody’s list top 50 maybe not at all.
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 11, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Top 50 for some but some not*
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 11, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I dont know, SHS
… but, Ill tell you this – Alcies escobar has a much better hitting record than Dee Gordon does!
Thats my main argument agaainst Gordon – marginal hitting SSs in the majors are way better than him. Dont trust me, take a look :)
Alcides hit .328 .363 .434 in the Souhern league, at the age of 21 in 2009
Gordon hit .277 . 332 .355 in the same league, i 2010, at the age of 22.
Alcides, for his struggles thus far, has a much better chance to hit in the majors imo.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
"Not playing baseball during crucial development yeats does not make him some sort of prodigy."
No one said it did. I’m addressing your simplistic, unnuanced attachment to ARL. I’m neither endorsing nor indicting Gordon, I’m saying that doing either based on ARL is ham-fisted.
by blackoutyears on Apr 13, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree
Two fold really…
First, you ARE suggesting he is a atypical – which I assume is because he got a late start. Im not aware of anything else about him that is atypical.
I don’t see what, essentially, seppartaes him from any other 22 year old struggling to hit AA pitching and make it to the big leagues. I don’t see his special advantage that separates him and, I look for it every time I watch him bat.
It actually isn’t totally baseed on ARL. Thats most of it but, Im willing to let my eyes, or other evidence, change my mind on ballplayers.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
So let's see him succeed at that level
Before making it out to be a good thing. If he jumps from low Single-A to Double-A and stumbles, that’s not a point in his favor.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 13, 2011 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't implying that it was a "good thing"
It’s still atypical in terms of prospect development, which I think is reasonable to keep in mind when the discussion is pertaining to a prospect’s ARL and developmental path.
He didn't really stumble
He had a lot of trouble against LHP (not exactly unexpected for a raw LH batter) and had a drop in BABIP. The rest of his numbers are pretty similar to his “breakout” year in the MWL. Those that liked him a year ago should still like him now.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
"I don’t see what, essentially, seppartaes him from any other 22 year old struggling to hit AA pitching"
Fo one, anyone who’s 22 in Double-A is atypical. That’s 2-3 years younger than the average. The average 22-year-old should be struggling to hit Double-A pitching.
by blackoutyears on Apr 18, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
This is not correct
They, maybye, should be struggling in relation to the average AA player but, we aren’t generally talking about this.
We are talking about future major league performance aren’t we?
Almost all 22 year olds in AA were excellent performers in AA. The average ones have a TERRIBLE track record.
One can say Dee Gordon is a typical, that he has a reason or two for being mediocre at AA but, the record of these kinds of players is pretty clear.
Here’s another interesting point. 22 year olds were even good at AA don’t have a great, future record in the show. Its just ok.
They aren’t supposed to be struggling in AA at all. Not if they wan’t to big leaguers, they don’t.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Shoot
My crappy typing screwed up part of my point here, but I’ll ellaborate or clarify if need be.
… Almost all 22 year olds in AA WHO BECAME GOOD MAJOR LEAGUERS were excellent performers in AA. The average ones have a TERRIBLE track record.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Logic...
Casejud why do you try to use things like evidence? The Mariners excuse is always THE SCOUTS SAID. Anyone and i mean anyone who thinks Ackley is better than franklin have never watch them play , is blind or has no idea what a ballplayer looks like. Take your grandma and have her watch both take bp … she can tell you whos better.
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 19, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice List Casejud
Wilson Ramos is pretty solid …yep
Like a lot a lot of things here
I’d just move Ackley up a bit and Franklin down a bit…. they should be closer than that
most I think would have Ackley a smidge ahead of Franklin… But that is why people make these lists I understand NIce Job
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 11, 2011 4:51 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks Man!
I appreciate it. I look at tghings a bit differently than some but, makes it interesting right?
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
No love for Randal Grichuk
Hes the new jeff francour
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 11, 2011 8:51 PM EDT reply actions
I like Grike
Grichuk as frenchy huh? i love obscure comps
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Hey casejud
The Seattle mariners need to tank this 2011 season so we can get Ricky Oropesa in the 2012 draft…..ha ha Master scout that i am.
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 11, 2011 9:20 PM EDT reply actions
Pookie, you rock
Ricky Oropesa huh? Well, tanking shouldn’t be a problem for our M’s.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Hey Pookie!
Trevor Bauer now has 97 Ks in 64.2 Innings, also 6-1 with a 1.67 ERA
thier #2 strarter is pretty good too, 64 ks in 57 innings, 4-2 with a 1.74 ERA
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Are you saying bauer over cole???????
Is it because ther on the same team, and hes been out pitched by him side by side. one is 27-7 354 k 300in the other 19-14 331k in 265 in crazy
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 12, 2011 3:09 AM EDT reply actions
Crazy I know but...
Tim Lincecum’s last year – 12-4, 1.94 – 5.4 Hits per 9, 4.5 BBs, 14.3 ks
Trver Bauer so far – 6-1, 1.67 – 4.6 Hits per 9, 3.1 BBs, 13.5 ks
Holy Shit !!! Less Hits, less walks, and almost as many Ks as Lincecum? Maybe the Mariners have a chance to not make the same mistake twice?
Of course they always find a way to screw things up when drafting.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Didn't they pick Morrow who is a fine player
If they handled him better, or didn’t trade him … That’s a different story though
No..no...
This is the Seattle Mariners were talking about . Try to collect the least amount of talent as possible. We prefer middle of the pack reliever over solid starter with a chance to be a front of the rotation starter.
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 12, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't discount the fact
that they are using different bats in the NCAA now, which have shown to significantly impact hitters’ performance. The average batting average in the NCAA is at .279, down from .301 last year. average ERA in 2010: 5.95, average ERA in 2011: 4.62
by Zeitgeister on Apr 12, 2011 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Wow
Thats quite a difference, and I didn’t realize that.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Yup, the BBCOR bats have killed offensve in college ball
Evaluating college hitters is a bit different now.
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 13, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Good
There was too much ofense anyways right? It’ll make it easier to see a good hitter I’d think. That makes me look at Anthony Rendon’s numbers this season in a new light. Not that they were bad or anything.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
did the pitchers "suddenly" discover control?
I would expect pitchers to be less wild now. IMO a decent amount of rumoured wild pitchers (who were not wild) was pitching away from contact. Would you throw anything near the center of the plate when you might get killed?
Good point
Alos, although it is counterintuitave I think It is MORE important to throw strikes in a very tough pitching environment, like Coors Field, Cahse Field, Albequerque in the PCL, or College Baseball – before this year anyways.
Either that or miss bats! Like Trever Bauer!
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
It is more important, falling behind in the count is death to pitchers
but I would expect far more pitchers would live around the edge of the strike zone. Which would make both walks and K’s go up.
True, but I just meant in terms of raw stuff and mechanics
Evaluating college pitchers is still generally similar. Most projection comes out raw stuff and mechanics anyways, right?
Yes, my real name is actually Satchel.
I'm a columnist for Beyond the Box Score, an SB Nation blog.
Oh, I'm on Twitter, too.
by Satchel Price on Apr 13, 2011 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
Although in the new hitting environment I’m sure we will start seeing some very highly regarded college pitchers that will have command issues. Having these problems now won’t be amplified so much.
And has made the game significantly better
The games are shorter and generally more fun to watch.
Bullpen Banter
Twitter Account: @Ioffridus
huge drops...
Good to know for college Juniors who had big drops
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 13, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
me neither thanks for this
Nishi to Alexi = Double Play
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Apr 12, 2011 11:20 PM EDT reply actions
Hey casejud
Come on bud no love for my favorite prospect Tim Collins……come on man.!!!!
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 15, 2011 12:07 AM EDT reply actions
I like him
I put him 50-60 somewhere.
Ackley homered yesterday PJ, then went 1-5 today – .179 baby!
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
Hey Pook
Your kid-sensation, Nick Franklin went 3-4 with a BOMB tonight :)
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
i know.....im the best.
Hey why did you leave jaff decker out of the top 25….Is it cause hes fat? You do realize hes one of the top 10 hitters in all of the minors.
by Pookie Johnstone on Apr 19, 2011 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I realize this
I’m sorry, I’ll put him on the list.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
really?
I was done reading this list when I hit #17.
by Jake Rafferty on Apr 21, 2011 6:41 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Cool
I waded through all these comments for THIS? Thanks, I’m glad you didn’t like it. Good for you.
"If my uniform doesn't get dirty, I haven't done anything in the baseball game." - Rickey Henderson
z button goes to unread comments
save urself some time!!

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