San Francisco Giants Organization Discussion
by John Sickels on Dec 30, 2011 5:01 PM EST
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PrintI am now working on the New York Yankees prospect list, to be followed by the San Francisco Giants, Cleveland Indians, Chicago Cubs, Cincinnati Reds, and Oakland Athletics to finish the process.
Use this thread to discuss the Giants farm system, point out sleepers, etc. After building their reputation as a pitching-oriented system, the farm looks a bit weak in arms right now, with nobody standing out as a possible anchor. Hitting is stronger and there are some catching prospects who could relieve Buster Posey if he has to move to another position. Outfielder Gary Brown and infielder Joe Panik look like strong tablesetters, but Francisco Peguero and Tommy Joseph have strike zone issues, and we'll have to see what Andrew Susac can do.
What would you do to get the Giants back to the top of the division, and what is your farm system/draft strategy going forward?
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My favorite picture of Sabean.
Catching is clearly the strength of the Giants system. I like Andrew Susac, Hector Sanchez, and Tommy Joseph. The Giants seem to have put Hector Sanchez on the fast track, jumping him from A+ to AAA to the majors in 2011. They have also talked about him backing up Buster Posey in 2012. I don’t really understand this at all… Sanchez hasn’t put up impressive numbers anywhere and struggled mightily in AAA last year.
I think Clayton Blackburn and Adalberto Mejia are two young pitchers to watch out for. Really impressive numbers in rookie ball and the DSL, respectively. I like Kyle Crick too, but he appears to be a long-term project.
I also think Joe Panik could have a huge year in the Cal League next season, but I am not sold on him as a top prospect (unless he can stick at shortstop).
As far as improving the system is concerned, I would like to see Giants target high school pitching in the draft. With Zack Wheeler gone, there is very little upside in the system. Mike Kickham and Eric Surkamp will probably never be anything more than fourth or fifth starters.
I encourage you to check out Fish Stripes, Catch-28 and my twitter.
i think they rushed sanchez moreso because
he was really the only other catcher behind Stewatt and Whiteside in the organization that could handle both offense and defense somewhat adequately.
I think Mejia is the biggest sleeper in the organization right now. I also like Shawn Payne a lot too.
Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 30, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
They should have traded for someone who could fill the role of catcher then. Rushing Sanchez and stifling his progress as a prospect is not an acceptable solution.
I encourage you to check out Fish Stripes, Catch-28 and my twitter.
one of the things about the giants is
they are full of unacceptable solutions. The mere fact that they are willing to draw a hard line in the sand with a budget of 130 Million proves this. They traded away their best pitching prospect (knowing that pitching is what got them to where they are) for about 2 months of Beltran only to let him walk without even making an attempt to resign him.
The Giants are by far the most frustrating front office in the MLB because they look like they have no clear direction/plan whatsoever. Its like forever being in limbo with them. just wwhen you think they are making progress on the farm with the successful draft and development of cain, lincecum, bumgarner, posey, sandoval etc…they go and revert back to their Bonds-era strategies of renting aging players at the expense of their farm…its really just sad.
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 30, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
The Giants are by far the most frustrating front office in the MLB because they look like they have no clear direction/plan whatsoever.
I have a friend of mine who is a Giants fan and he would agree with this x 10000000000
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Dec 31, 2011 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
it's an undeniable truth of life
"There was no torture in the end. Only rapture." - Mike Krukow
Flags Fly Forever
"Orlando before Zod" doesn't have the same nice ring to it.
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 31, 2011 2:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah it isn't like the Giants have won anything in the last 2 years. ;)
People need to ease up on Sabean. The guy won a ring in 2010 and his team consistently wins.
Big Sexy
Follow KBR and Dewey on Twitter! @KBRandDewey
by King Billy Royal on Jan 1, 2012 2:07 AM EST up reply actions
As a recent The HardBall Times Annual noted, maybe he knows more than you do
A study in THT annual studied BA’s top prospects list, separating them into keepers and traded, and the study found that teams basically know who their good prospects are and who are the ones to give away in trade.
And given Sabean’s track record of not trading away any prospect that turned out to be great (Liriano screws up the Twins plans every year, so I don’t find that to be particularly great) and keeping the ones who are – Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Wilson, Romo, Sandoval, Posey – I trust his judgement on who to trade and who not to trade.
I see no need for frustration. Sabean has had one clear objective and strategy from the early days of his reign as GM: pitching, fielding, speed. It has taken him a while to put that all together, but that was because he was so successful in turning around a losing team in his first year as GM that they got lousy draft picks because they were winning. Once the team got down to rebuilding, during the losing years, he refilled the coffers pretty quickly and successfully. Find me a GM who can beat picking Lincecum, Bumgarner, Posey in consecutive drafts.
Now, about the $130M, that’s not Sabean’s fault, that’s ownership’s. I’ve been complaining about the ownership since the Vlad debacle. I though Neukom was the answer but now he’s gone. Hopefully Baer will be different but we’ll see. I’m OK with the $130M because the focus this off-season should be on extending Cain and Lincecum, and chasing a big kahuna would distract from that. Plus, signing a big salary guy now probably means not signing to a long-term extension one of Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, Posey, Sandoval. I would rather we sign these guys, or at least try to, before throwing more big money at free agents. We are almost out of the mistakes in free agency, why risk another one right when we are almost done with the others?
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"We deserve this" Sabean
"Not here to make friends, I'm here to win games" - Bruce Bochy
Q: "This doesn't happen every year." Posey: "Why not?"
"Do it again Baby!" Huff
"Let's get back to work and make another run at it" Posey
2010's will be known as "Decade of the Giants"
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 4, 2012 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and by a big margin
don’t have the book with me right now, but I recall that the WAR of the keepers were basically double that of the ones that were traded away. Give the owning team some credit, they know their prospects pretty well, Wheeler being traded should tell you something.
And if not that, then look at his numbers before the trade in Advanced A. The way he was going, he was going to repeat SJ in 2012. That puts him in the majors for good probably in the 2015 timeframe. Plus, his good numbers for the Mets was probably driven by two major factors: 1) he moved from a hitters league to a pitchers league and 2) he wasn’t that well known probably by the teams he faced in his new league. Plus, he was older than Bumgarner was in Advanced A and yet did a whole lot worse. He was older when drafted and with his injury the other season, he didn’t advance to make up for that. Heck, plus the Giants have had a series of pitchers over the past few seasons who dominated in Advanced A, only to falter in AA and AAA. Wheeler could not even dominate in Advanced A.
I’m not saying that he won’t be a good pitcher eventually. But how long before that happens and will that happen? 2015 is far off in terms of payoff, and the Giants were in the lead and got the best hitter on the market. It just didn’t work. That’s baseball, that’s sports.
I would also add that even if the payroll was higher, the Giants might not still have pursued Beltran in the free agent market. Given how little he got, I have to think the Giants medical staff did not care for what they found in their examinations and told Sabean to move on.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"We deserve this" Sabean
"Not here to make friends, I'm here to win games" - Bruce Bochy
Q: "This doesn't happen every year." Posey: "Why not?"
"Do it again Baby!" Huff
"Let's get back to work and make another run at it" Posey
2010's will be known as "Decade of the Giants"
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 4, 2012 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
Hector Sanchez
numbers in Venezuelan Winter League: .339/.402/.548, 9 HR, BB/SO 18/37, 177 AB. That league is most competitive than AA and perhaps comparable to AAA when bigleaguers arrive to their teams, so maybe Sanchez is more ready than most people think?
I don’t know what to think of Sanchez either. He hit well as an age-appropriate catcher in the CAL League last year, but then struggled in AAA and in MLB. The Cal League stats are encouraging, except Cal League.
I don’t think Crick is any more of a project than Blackburn, and is probably less of a project than Mejia. Yes, Crick has only been pitching for about 2 years now, but he’s got the best stuff of the three, and an easy motion that appears to be easily repeatable. From what I understand, Blackburn may have some body issues, and Mejia won’t turn 19 until June, and has only played in the Dominican. I’d say they are all probably at about the same level of development.
Another position of strength in the system is centerfield. With Gary Brown, Jesus Galindo, Jarrett Parker, Francisco Peguero, and my favorite sleeper, Shawn Payne, not to mention projects like Kentrell Hill, there’s a lot to like, especially defensively, with the CF crop.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 30, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions
I’d second the CF strength. Galindo and Payne are my favorite as well.
Weaknesses are high minors pitching, especially starters. I’d say SS depth might be a weakness as well, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they went after best player available/HS project SS if they think enough of one of those guys with the 20th pick.
Biggest question mark is Josh Osich. His health, and what the Giants plan to do with him: starter project or quick pen development.
What I’d like them to do? Less throw-ins of talent such as Ryan Verdugo. Get injured less so we don’t have to burn off minor league depth for the Jeff Keppingers of the world.
The CBA should help the Giants a lot, as Sabey Sabes is just not interested in manipulating the draft on any level.
Get injured less
Easier said than done.
That said, I bet Conor Gillaspie could match the .255/.285.333 that Keppinger gave us, and calling up Gillaspie doesn’t cost us Sosa and Stoffel.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Not quite true! He did use quirks of the draft.
Ishikawa signing is one example. He did numerous draft and follows.
The biggest example was his punting draft picks to save money for payroll. Picks that high do not become major leaguers at a very high rate. He took a calculated business risk to do that. That is pretty sophisticated manipulation of the draft.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"We deserve this" Sabean
"Not here to make friends, I'm here to win games" - Bruce Bochy
Q: "This doesn't happen every year." Posey: "Why not?"
"Do it again Baby!" Huff
"Let's get back to work and make another run at it" Posey
2010's will be known as "Decade of the Giants"
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 1, 2012 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
I don't agree with the idea that Sanchez "struggled" in AAA or the Majors.
After jumping from A+ to AAA, he put up BB/K rates of 7.7%/13.1%, both of which are pretty impressive for a 21-year-old catcher in AAA. 9 doubles in 153 ABs shows he wasn’t just slapping singles out there, either.
In his short Major League stint, Sanchez walked 8.8% of the time and K’d in only 17.6% of his PAs, and doubled a couple more times in 31 ABs, the same rate he had at AAA.
I’m not sure what the expectations for Sanchez were last year, but it looks to me like he made a HUGE jump in competition and showed he could handle pitching much more advanced than we thought he was. I think the fact that he didn’t get the bat knocked out of his hands for two months is only going to help his development. If he can maintain the approach he showed last year and add the power he had in the lower minors, Sanchez could look like one of the best catching prospects in the minors by the end of next season.
i agree with this
he handled his promotions very well. he never looked lost out there. only fault i noticed was that he has trouble handling pitches in the dirt.
Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 31, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
+1
And Sanchez was only 21 YO. Sandoval didn’t show his power until he turned 22.
I was really impressed with Sanchez’s MLB debut, I’m hoping he spends 2012 in AAA instead of sitting on the bench in the majors, and really show his worth as a hitting catcher. Part of that is that I like Stewart, and hope to keep hold of him longer. Maybe he and Hector can platoon at catcher after 2-3 years of Posey back there, assuming neither Susac or Joseph forces the issue sooner. Lots of great options at catcher for the Giants.
And I envision Posey moving to 2B at some point, though he might be able to handle other positions, depending on the Giants needs for position players at that point. He would probably still be a plus hitter at 3B and corner OF, but average at 1B, so I would only put him there if we had to do that.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"We deserve this" Sabean
"Not here to make friends, I'm here to win games" - Bruce Bochy
Q: "This doesn't happen every year." Posey: "Why not?"
"Do it again Baby!" Huff
"Let's get back to work and make another run at it" Posey
2010's will be known as "Decade of the Giants"
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 4, 2012 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Sabean only allows photos of him talking on the phone or in a microphone
I believe it is in his contract.
"There was no torture in the end. Only rapture." - Mike Krukow
Flags Fly Forever
"Orlando before Zod" doesn't have the same nice ring to it.
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 31, 2011 2:22 AM EST up reply actions
What would you do to get the Giants back to the top of the division, and what is your farm system/draft strategy going forward?
Perhaps Sabean retiring is a good starting point?
I think a longer extension would be better
Sabean has put together a great young core of the team plus additional pieces coming along in Brown and Panik and Hembree.
The team is set up to be at the top of the division for the next 4-6 years, depending on the owners allowing Sabean to sign Lincecum and Cain to long-term extensions. The rotation is set, bullpen is set, and soon the lineup will hopefully be set with Brown, Panik, Sandoval, Posey, and Belt.
Adoptive parental unit of Ehire Adrianza.
Godfather of Travis Ishikawa.
"We deserve this" Sabean
"Not here to make friends, I'm here to win games" - Bruce Bochy
Q: "This doesn't happen every year." Posey: "Why not?"
"Do it again Baby!" Huff
"Let's get back to work and make another run at it" Posey
2010's will be known as "Decade of the Giants"
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 4, 2012 3:29 PM EST up reply actions
Thats not Brian Sabean, thats Brian Dennehy.
AKA: Sheriff Will Teasle
TEASLE: He was just another drifter who broke the law!
TRAUTMAN: Vagrancy wasn’t it? That’s gonna look real good on his grave stone in Arlington: Here lies John Rambo, winner of the Congressional Medal of Honor, survivor of countless incursions behind enemy lines. Killed for vagrancy in Jerkwater, USA.
TEASLE: Now don’t give me any of that crap Trautman. Do you think Rambo was the only guy who had a tough time in Vietnam? He killed a police officer for Christ’s sake!
TRAUTMAN: You’re goddamn lucky he didn’t kill all of you.
I like to think of him more as Big Tom Callahan II
“I could get a hell of a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a bull’s ass, but I’d rather take the butcher’s word for it.”
Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.
by James Westfall on Dec 30, 2011 7:13 PM EST up reply actions
Adalberto Mejia
Put up some really good #’s in the DSL, would love to read more about him. Definitely a player to watch this year assuming he is brought to the US.
He's already been to Arizona
He’ll either be in the AZL or NWL next year.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
The thing about the Giants Farm is that their 3 best prospects(Posey, Bumgarner, Belt)
are all up helping the team. Bumgarner is a full year younger than Pomeranz amazing that most guys his age are in AA rather than coming off a five and a half win season.
"Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage." ― Thucydides
Sleeper
LHP RP Jack Snodgrass. 44 K/14BB in 47.2 at Salem-Keizer. He goes to SJ next year, tears it up he might move quick. 27th pick, this seems to be the magic section of recent Giants drafts. Yeah, bit of juju, but Kentucky guys are OK in my book. As are 6’6 lefties with some control.
Snodgrass isn’t a prospect. He turned 24 three weeks ago, and hasn’t played an inning above low-A. For a reliever, those rate stats aren’t jump-of-the-page incredible, which they would have to be for a guy that is significantly old for the level.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 1:05 AM EST up reply actions
Brett Bochy would be a better sleeper relief prospect. 12.2 K/9, 1.8 BB/9, and he played one level higher last year. Snodgrass also posted a 9.3 H/9 last year, indicating a propensity for giving up hits, while Bochy’s rate was 5.1 H/9, which is ridiculous.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 1:09 AM EST up reply actions
Fair enough. Personally, I’d draw the line between “legit prospect” and “sleeper” somewhere around organizational prospect 15 or 20, which I wouldn’t put Bochy in. For me, Bork Jr. is between 25 and 30, and that certainly qualifies as a sleeper in my book.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 3:00 AM EST up reply actions
For instance, I’d say my favorite sleeper is Shawn Payne, who I put at 25 on my personal Giants Top 25 list, and I believe that was a pretty aggressive ranking on my part.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 3:57 AM EST up reply actions
I mean, seriously. Look at Payne’s stats. College career: 78/108 BB/K ratio, XBH% close to 34%, SB%=94% (76/81). A .431 OBP in Salem-Keizer, to go with a 78% SB%. I have high hopes for him.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 4:03 AM EST up reply actions
Love Payne as well. I guess we’re defining sleepers differently. I agree with your Bork Jr positioning around 25/30. I was thinking Top 20, next top 20 as the obvious upside guys and then sleeper 20, and I’d put Snodgrass in that last category. So I’ll call him a “Deep Sleeper” – maybe old for the league, but its his first round of pro ball and he’s a lefty.
With the Giants continue to mess with Belt's development?
he’s their best 1B at the moment but they’ll give Huff the ABs. Frustrating.
by JoelGuzman'sScout on Dec 31, 2011 2:09 AM EST reply actions
I’m pretty sure every McCoven is resigned to this fate, as much as we wish it weren’t true. The worst part is that, if Huff struggles, we believe Belt won’t even be the one to relieve him. Brett Pill will.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 3:02 AM EST up reply actions
i think he could use another
half season in fresno to get the strikeouts in control.
Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 31, 2011 5:32 AM EST up reply actions
Draft Strategy
The Giants currently have strength at Catcher and CF. Not sure about middle infield. Not a lot of power prospects. The bigger issue might be pitching, specifically starting pitching. I think they will take best player available with an eye towards power hitting or starting pitching. If one of the HS shortstops fall maybe they pounce. I’m thinking specifically about Correa or Cecchini. Not the usual M.O. for the Giants, as they like college bats, but with shortstop being a wasteland I think you have to keep your eye on that.
The main thing the Giants do is they are unpredictable and play it close to the vest. Nobody saw Panik coming. I’d say one of the HS arms would be the most likely to get picked – Cherry, Virant, Hensley or if they want somebody closer maybe Zimmer from USF. I’d expect them to grab best player available first 2 rounds and then they will let Tidrow and Barr argue it along with Tidrow winning due to the need for more arms in the system.
I think the Giants are one bat away from having a good offense between Posey/Sandoval established and Belt coming along, Brown/Panik as table setters. The 3 Catchers bode well, it would be very nice to get a RF/LF who can really hit. But that’s what every team is looking for obviously. The dream scenario is to have Victor Roache drop to #20, but I don’t see that happening. Barr really likes to grab guys who were highly rated and have small and large dings – Crawford, Ricky O, Susak. Impossible to predict, but if some of the more highly rated college guys have hickups during the year and drop, I’d expect the G’s to be in on those types in the 3-7 rounds.
im PRAYING roache drops to the Giants.
Seems like it becomes more and more doubtful as we move towards the draft though.
Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 31, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
Farm Strategy
Pro’s: they are building a lot of depth. Lots of interesting guys in the lower minors. Big time prospects at Catcher, some good sleepers at CF, and some depth. Proven ability to develop pitching and steal guys later in the draft.
Con’s: Not a lot of star potential. Big time lack of starting pitching depth right now. Not enough power potential. GM who does not maximize value through the draft (type B manipulation specifically). Some sloppy 40-man moves (the keep Hinshaw forever get Joe Patterson poached specifically).
I think the Giants continue to focus up the middle for position players, which seems pretty sound to me. Would love to have better bats at the corner IF/OF spots. Lots of speed guys who may not hit enough to make majors. Pitching has oddly been neglected, so we may see a big resurgence. Then again, they drafted a lot of interesting arms last year: Bandilla, Marlowe, Osich, Black all could bust out.
Best strength to me is the 3 18-19 year old arms in Mejia, Blackburn and Crick. If they can supplement those with a couple more, we’d have a nice new core.
The CBA really does help the Giants. Sabean has never shown interest in Type B hijinks like the Rays do all the time. The Giants are also very conservative about slot. So they don’t have to adjust their strategy. The past 4 years of drafting has led to a much improved farm system. Good time to be a G’s fan.
nice recap
it’s definitely a good time to be a Giants fan, but it is also very frustrating, especially these days with the stupid Rainy Day Fund nonsense.
"There was no torture in the end. Only rapture." - Mike Krukow
Flags Fly Forever
"Orlando before Zod" doesn't have the same nice ring to it.
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 31, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
RDF is some nonsense for sure. I’ll forgive it if Cain is locked up come March though. I really think going over a little and getting a real 5th starter would pay dividends, but the G’s just don’t want to give up on BZ. Personally I don’t care about the hitters on the market as much as locking up our own guys. But a false ceiling when a little more scratch would get you a good utility bat or a 5th starter? Sort of weak.
agree on CBA
Giants are the type of team that can really benefit from the new structure, they didn’t go over slot much and when they did it was with risk guys like Osich. But for chrissake they need to develop some position players who can get on base & hit the ball. If Panik can play 2B and turn into a .300/.375/.425 guy I would take it in a heartbeat.
Angel Villalona
sounds as if he’ll be back in the system this season after a layoff due to his legal troubles (aka beating a murder wrap) back home. He’s still only 21 (turns 22 in August). I imagine he’ll still be a power hitter, but I’m most interested to see if the “experience” he had will lead him to become a more mature player, and whether he got himself into good shape at all.
It’s probably too much to ask that he be considered a prospect until we see more, but he should be interesting to watch and could be a big surprise this season if things go right.
"There was no torture in the end. Only rapture." - Mike Krukow
Flags Fly Forever
"Orlando before Zod" doesn't have the same nice ring to it.
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Dec 31, 2011 2:06 PM EST reply actions
Adam Duvall
How ’bout this guy and his 912 OPS in Augusta ?
Too old. What’s to stop him from hitting like David Friese or Allen Craig somewhere down the line?
There are reports that he has a slow bat, and is feasting on inferior pitching. I’m cautiously optimistic about him, but he should hit well in San Jose next year.
by free f.p. #14 on Dec 31, 2011 3:00 PM EST up reply actions
i think he's at the end of the top 15 for the Giants.
Probably only a “C” prospect though.
Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 31, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
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