Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Boston Red Sox Top 20 Prospects for 2012

Ryan Lavarnway of the Boston Red Sox hits a home run against the Baltimore Orioles during the fourth inning at Oriole Park at Camden Yards on September 27, 2011 in Baltimore, Maryland.  (Photo by Rob Carr/Getty Images)

Boston Red Sox Top 20 Prospects for 2012

THIS LIST WAS UPDATED JANUARY 19, 2012

The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Comments are welcome, but in the end all analysis and responsibility is mine of course. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!

Star-divide

QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:

Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.

Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.

Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don't make it at all.

A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters. Many Grade A pitching prospects fail to develop, often due to injuries. Some Grade C pitching prospects turn out much better than expected.

Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise coming from me, and some C+ prospects turn out very well indeed.

Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment in the book for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.

1) Xander Bogaerts, SS, Grade B+: Borderline A-. Jumped from Dominican Summer League to Sally League and showed very impressive power, needs polish and experience but terrific upside. May end up at third base. I have him at a B+ right now, but that is conservative and he may end up at an A- by the time the book goes to press.

2) Matt Barnes, RHP, Grade B+. Has the build and stuff of a rotation anchor, and improved every year in college. Still some rough edges and he won't get to the majors as fast as Trevor Bauer or Danny Hultzen, but he could be a real steal at 19th-overall in the '11 draft.

3) Will Middlebrooks, 3B, Grade B: Plate discipline/strike zone issues increase risk premium and preclude a higher grade right now, but he has the power and glove of a prototype third baseman. Needs 400 at-bats in Triple-A.

4) Ryan Lavarnway, C-DH, Grade B. You can make a case for B+ based just on his bat but defensive questions are enough to drop down a notch. His glove isn't good, but I think his reputation as a total butcher is a little overblown. Whatever they do with him, he'll hit.

5) Garin Cecchini, 3B, Grade B: Higher ceiling than Lavarnway and better plate discipline than Middlebrooks, but hasn't seen full-season ball yet. Needs better defense but I like the bat. B+ or higher possible next year.

6) Brandon Jacobs, OF, Grade B: Tool-laden outfielder with 20/20 power/speed potential, remains raw with the strike zone but made significant progress in 2011. B+ or higher possible with further refinement.

7) Blake Swihart, C, Grade B-: Risky demographic as a high school catcher, but has plenty of offensive upside and should stick behind the plate. Another guy who could rank much higher once he gets some at-bats under his belt.

8) Sean Coyle, 2B, Grade B-: Hit for power, stole bases, drew walks, adapting well to second base defensively. A second baseman who can hit is harder to find than an outfielder, so I put him ahead of Brentz.

9) Bryce Brentz, OF, Grade B-: Prototype right fielder, with power, strong arm, strikes out a lot, questionable plate discipline, error-prone. Could develop into Ryan Ludwick-type hitter, or he could fizzle in Triple-A.

10) Anthony Ranaudo, RHP, Grade B-: Jekyll-Hyde season, both statistically and scout-wise, with large variations in quality of both stuff and command from start to start making it hard to get a proper read on him.

11) Henry Owens, LHP, Grade B-: We need to see him pitch, but one of my favorite high school pitchers from the '11 draft due to feel for pitching. Will his velocity pick up?

12) Jackie Bradley Jr., OF, Grade B-: Great glove, good feel for the strike zone, excellent track record in college until 2011. Did the switch to the less-potent bats expose his flaws? Could rank much higher, or much lower, a year from now.

13) Alex Wilson, RHP, Grade B-: Turned things around after rough Double-A debut in '10, will be ready for the majors sometime in '12. Could be fourth/fifth starter for some teams but more likely a reliever in Boston.

14) Brandon Workman, RHP, Grade B-: Profiles as workhorse starter. Workman the workhorse. Alliteration.

15) Jose Iglesias, SS, Grade C+: Glove-only player at this point. His bat has been awful so far, but young for Triple-A and improvement is plausible. No power, might hit for a decent average someday. Defense superb.

16) Felix Doubront, LHP, Grade C+: Yet another guy who could be a four/five starter for many teams but is more likely to end up a reliever in Boston.

17) Stolmy Pimentel, RHP, Grade C+: The good news is that his fastball continues to improve and he's been up to 97 MPH in winter ball. The bad news is that his secondary pitches went backwards last year, and he was annihilated in Double-A. Turns 22 in February, still has time to figure it out, but definitely in the high-risk category at this point. (Someone asked me why Stolmy went from almost being left off the list to #17. I tapped a source that gave me better info than I had when I was doing the preliminary list. That is why these things take time).

18) Christian Vazquez, C, Grade C+: Repeating the league, but was still age-appropriate for Low-A, with sudden power outburst to go with impressive defense. Could rank as high as 13. (This was originally a B- but I moved him down a little. He could still move back up)

19) Kolbrin Vitek, 3B, Grade C+: Didn't hit for power in High-A and defense is rough, but still has one of the better offensive ceilings in the system.

20) Cody Kukuk, LHP, Grade C+: Pitched high school baseball a mile from my house. Projectable lefty, if you want to dream he could turn into Jon Lester, but we need to see him pitch.

21) Jose Vinicio, SS, Grade C+: Cost $2,000,000 to sign in 2009. Draws raves on defense, hit .291 and stole 19 bases in GCL, but lack of power and poor plate discipline could hinder him.

22) Junichi Tazawa, RHP, Grade C+: Thrived after moving to relief, could surprise in 2012.

OTHERS: Lars Anderson, 1B; Chris Balcom-Miller, RHP; Drake Britton, LHP; Keith Couch, RHP; Alex Hassan, OF; Jeremy Hazelbaker, OF; Williams Jerez, OF; Che-Hsuan Lin, OF; Heiker Meneses, INF; Frank Montas, RHP; Kendrick Perkins, OF; Noe Ramirez, RHP; Henry Ramos, OF; Kyle Stroup, RHP; Oscar Tejeda, INF.


COMMENTARY:

You are going to see a wide variation in prospect lists for the Red Sox this winter. Once you get past the very top group, it is difficult to order the B-/C+ guys.

This system is quite deep, and it could look even better a year from now. Many of the B-/C+ players have high upside but haven't played much yet, and with more at-bats/innings under their belts they could vault up the prospect lists. On the other hand, there's also a lot of risk: keep in mind what happened to Stolmy Pimentel and Drake Britton.

I love Bogaerts and he's just scratching the surface of what is possible. There is the core of a very strong power offense here with Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, Coyle, Cecchini, and Brentz. Jacobs made big progress converting his tools into skills last year, although he needs more work with the zone. As much as I like his glove, I have a lot of doubts about Iglesias' bat, but will still cut him some slack due to his age and lack of experience.

Barnes looks like the best of the pitchers to me, and he hasn't even pitched yet. Wilson and Doubront aren't spectacular, but at least give some options for '12. I have no idea what to expect from Pimentel, and Ranaudo is an enigma. High school lefties Owens and Kukuk offer good hope from the '11 draft, but again we need to see them pitch.

The "others" category includes potentially valuable role players like Hassan, Hazelbaker and Lin, mixed in with high-upside-low-polish players Jerez, Perkins, Montas, and Ramos.

Overall, this is a strong system that could look even better in a year. It could also look a lot worse if the upside gambles don't pan out.

Comment 255 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Definitely

jealous the Red Sox were able to scoop up Barnes at #19. Very good value at that spot in my opinion.

Another deep system with plenty of upside. Curse the Red Sox haha.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 13, 2011 3:41 PM EST reply actions  

Agree

Also thought Barnes was very solid pick. Also speaks to the depth of this draft though, as while I had him ranked a bit higher, there weren’t a ton of reaches either.

by killa on Dec 13, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

look like

a few generous B- and C+ grades. for example, how is Iglesias a B- with a bat that won’t play at the big league level?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 3:51 PM EST reply actions  

Presumably

Because the bat may yet develop, and, given the quality of the defense, it doesn’t have to develop that much to make an everyday SS.

by A Behemoth on Dec 13, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The defense is good enough

to be the best defensive shortstop in the MLB

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 5:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Which is why I think the grade is fine.

by nivarsity on Dec 13, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

all glove

no bat SS’s have a hard time finding work today if you haven’t noticed. That’s why I think it’s an over-grade.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

if you think all glove no bat wont play in the MLB

check out who is starting at SS for the Giants.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 13, 2011 7:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Bad BABIP luck?

lol. Are you kidding? A .279 BABIP when you are hitting the ball with zero authority is bad luck?

by mr. maniac on Dec 14, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

it might actually be good luck...

jose iglesias is a brandon crawford type.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you

DIPS theory breaks down at lower levels because the range in offensive talent is so much greater. Screaming BABIP!!! in the majors is questionable science, doing it in the minors is flat out wrong. His hitting has been atrocious since he arrived and there is at least the possibility that he is not a good enough hitter to make predictions based on batted ball data.

If you haven’t read it, Mike Fast’s article on BABIP at BP about a month ago takes a bite out of DIPS theory.

by peachesnnuts on Dec 15, 2011 8:43 PM EST up reply actions  

no bat SS’s have a hard time finding work today if you haven’t noticed

Yuniesky Betancourt, Jason Bartlett, Alex Gonzalez, Alcides Escobar, Ian Desmond, Cliff Pennington, Alexei Ramirez and Elvis Andrus haven’t noticed.

The shortstops of baseball as a group hit .258/.314/.370 as a group. Iglesias might be the best defender among them… and I don’t think he’ll have trouble hitting somewhere near that or finding a job.

by alskor on Dec 13, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

as a UT player.

This is why I think he’s a C, not B prospect.

that’s what I meant when referring to all glove, no bat SS’s – Wilson and Everett. They could both hit a little when they were in their 20’s otherwise they wouldn’t have made it as far as they did. Now that they can’t hit, they keep getting released.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

But Iglesias is better than those guys

Both with the bat, and I think he’s Everett level with the glove, an Everett defense with average offense (I think he can do that, my BABIP adjusted metrics with aging adjusted say he will) is a very, very valuable player, maybe 5 WAR

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

If it weren't for injuries, Everett could have had an Omar Vizquel-type career.

I think you’re underselling Everett a bit. At his peak, he was probably the best defensive SS in the game. Iglesias has that potential to be as good defensively as Everett; like Bosox13 said, anything he adds with the bat would be gravy.

by ThomasG on Dec 13, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Everett has the best defensive WAR season of all-time

I don’t think we should be projecting anyone to that level. He would have to be an historically great SS defensively to be an average SS in the majors, unless anyone think he could put up a positive Offensive WAR at this point (which I sure in the hell don’t).

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

if Iglesias will

hit anywhere close to what those players have hit, then he will be fine. As of now, any of those players will far outhit Iglesias.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Yuniesky Betancourt is a

no bat, no glove, not an all glove, no bat. His defensive metrics are awful, I don’t know how he plays nevermind starts in the league. But I do think Iglesias is the best defender of all of them, maybe by a lot. my gameday defensive metrics have him at like +25 runs in the minors, none of those guys were ranked that high by my system, but i don’t have data for all of them.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I know everyone has their home favorites,

but I can’t see anybody being much better than Escobar range wise. Dudes got a cannon to boot…..Just throwin my 2 cents.

by Bronzillo on Dec 13, 2011 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

You should take Jason Bartlett off that list.

And I never see him hitting as well as that group.

by mr. maniac on Dec 14, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

I haven't noticed

How many MLB shortstops are above average hitters these days?

If you play elite D as a SS you’ll have a very good MLB career. That’s basically Iglesias’ floor at this point. I’m not a believer that his bat will come around, but if it does and he becomes even a serviceable hitter he will be one of the better SS’s in the league.

by nivarsity on Dec 13, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I have my doubts that even Mark Belanger would have a ML career today.

Bottom line is that Iglesias will have to be able to hit ML pitching at least a little bit. If he’s an automatic out it won’t matter how good a glove he has.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Do you think Iglesias could be as good a glove as Andrus?

Cuz Andrus isn’t a great hitter by any means (96 wRC+ last year, .323 wOBA) but still racked up 4.5 WAR. Alcides Escobar was a flat out wretched hitter (73 wRC+) and put up 2.2 WAR.

If his floor is anything near Escobar, he’s a very good prospect.

by nivarsity on Dec 13, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Andrus is in another league entirely.

Escobar is going to struggle if he doesn’t improve though. Right now he’s on the lower fringe and could easily find himself on the UT shuttle before long.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

But even if Escobar doesn't improve, he's a serviceable starting SS

His WAR was 14th among MLB shortstops last year, so he’s a legitimate starter as is. And he’s 24 so he’s only gonna get better.

Iglesias’ glove is considered otherwordly by scouts. If anyone could evolve into a gloveman on the level of Andrus, it’s him.

by nivarsity on Dec 14, 2011 12:16 AM EST up reply actions  

"otherworldly"

I love that this is now the tag line that Sox fans are using. I’m gonna use that. :-)

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Because that's the only reason anyone could like a Red Sox player

Duh.

The Year of Extreme Opinions
BLAAAAAAARGH OMFG SIGN STARTERS!!
I apologize if this post has offended you in any way. Please retroactively ignore it. Thank you for your consideration.

by nuthinboutnuthin on Jan 21, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

This

if Hech is a C+ Iglesias should be too

Do you have a young, talented cost controlled player having a down year who's "attitude" has cased problems with an aging player or manager?

Don't worry, I Alex Anthopoulos will take him off your hands, I'll even give you some moderately useful veterans that will "help you make a playoff run".

I tweet sometimes

by jaysfan100 on Dec 14, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

John

Christian Vazquez gets a B- at #19 but is ranked behind a few C+ guys. I know these things shift a lot in that range so just wanted to point that out to you.

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

by BenMc5 on Dec 13, 2011 4:00 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah

I know everything is subject to change. Just wanted to point it out bc it seems odd to get a higher grade yet get ranked lower than some C+ guys. Trying to get a better feel for where he fits.

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

by BenMc5 on Dec 13, 2011 5:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

B-/C+

Yeah he was originally a B- but I moved him down but forgot to change the grade.

He may yet move back up. That one is undecided.

by John Sickels on Dec 13, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Love the Barnes love.

Wish he got more K’s in college, but otherwise he’s got an awesome arm.

by SenorGato on Dec 13, 2011 4:05 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

As a Greenville resident, I can give a little feedback on the Drive players.

B+ for Xander is aggressive at this point, but not unreasonably so. The power is impressive, but I want to see more discipline and contact before I go above a B.

Personally I was more impressed with Jacobs than Xander. He’s one of those guys that you hear a different sound when he makes contact. There’s still some plate discipline issues, but he made good progress, and I think scouts are underselling his speed. He’s quite aggressive on the bases and one of the faster guys on the team. I saw his baserunning win several games. Scouts seem to think he’ll outgrow the speed some, but it’s intriguing for me.

by rlwhite on Dec 13, 2011 4:06 PM EST reply actions  

Agree

Brandon Jacobs stuck out to me in a similar way the year before (baserunning & sound of contact) and that was before his skills really started manifesting themselves into results. He swooned a little late & his K rate went up late, but his campaign was an impressive one to me and I feel like he’s undersold on the whole by many. I think he runs better than given credit for & I also felt like the scouting reports on his arm didn’t match what I remember seeing (he even played some RF). He’s more athletic than people who look at his dimensions & move on might believe too & he seems to have firmed up further. Can you speak to how you felt he fared as well as playing the ball off contact in LF in 2011? A lot of cursory accounts seem to vaguely say he’s weak there but I am curious if you have feedback.

by Matt0330 on Dec 13, 2011 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m nearsighted and sit behind home plate most of the time, so I don’t feel too comfortable rating OF defense. Nothing stood out to me either way about his defense.

by rlwhite on Dec 13, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

on the body part.
saw him in fall 2009 and again late summer this year. kid completely revamped his body. probably lost 20+ lbs

by ScottAZ on Dec 13, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Ryan Kalish

Just a handful of ABs over the rookie limit. Curious as to how he’d fit in here, and thoughts on what to expect this year, given his almost non-existent 2011.

by Domino427 on Dec 13, 2011 4:09 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Middlebrooks, Swihart, Vitek & Stolmy

also look like aggressive grades. A lot of swing and miss in Middlebrook’s bat that needs to be resolved. Did anyone notice the babips he’s been carrying in the minors?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 4:16 PM EST reply actions  

Middlebrooks was on Keith Law and BP's top 50s

a B is not high. Stolmy is not better than Britton who’s a little low so I agree on that one. Vitek is not high, he has a very good bat that was totally suppressed by the carolina league. Swihart was supposed to be a top 15 draft talent so a B- is not high at all, you think he’s a C+?

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't expect a lot of Sox fans to agree with me on these.

But that doesn’t change my feeling that there are a handful of aggressive grades in here. I know that Middlebrooks has been getting attention, but I think it’s a bit of a reach. If he was supposed to have a better glove, it would make more sense to me. And I know that Swihart and Vitek were both drafted high but Vitek hasn’t done much and I’m skeptical that Swihart will hit with the small frame he appears to have. He’s already listed at 7! That’s not aggressive?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

i would probably put Swihart at 10

but only because I really like Coyle, I think Ranaudo is low, and I also like Brentz more than most people

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this system

is getting a lot of credit because it’s young. I don’t know that there are a lot of successful ML players in this system though.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 6:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Lavarnway

His MLE’s have him as the 3rd best hitting catcher in the MLB, that’s kind of a successful MLB player. Wilson is a solid arm close to the majors, Middlebrooks is pretty close to the majors, Iglesias might be the best defensive SS in the MLB and got extremely unlucky with BABIP and was young for his level and he’s close to the majors. Brentz will probably start next year in AA. But this system has tremendous lower level depth and players with tremendous ceilings.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see Middlebrooks

hitting .250 in the MLs. He has pop but without an elite glove, he could be a tough fit.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

I’ve heard he does have an elite glove. Why don’t you see him hitting above .250? a lot of people say the hit tool is definitely there, and I agree with them. A lot of players who outperform their BABIP a lot do that because they have a great hit tool. Middlebrooks looks like he has that. I really don’t like the fact that he dosen’t walk at all though. That’s the thing holding him back for me.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Well a career .272 minor league BA

And a 121:431 BB:K ratio (7.5% BB rate, 26.8% K rate) probably means .250 is more reasonable than .280, at least to me.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I've heard him described several times

As the best 3B in the minors. The glove be-eth elite.

Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"

by Rogue Nine on Dec 13, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah wait

wasn’t there talk in the org discussion thread (by john) of dropping stolmy from the whole list? now he’s #18. did a positive report from winter ball come in at the last second or turn up in research or something? or did i imagine the whole thing

by wily mo on Dec 13, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Gosh

completely forgot the Red Sox got Jackie Bradley Jr. along with Barnes and Swihart. If the Pirates hadn’t gotten Cole and Bell, I’d be even more jealous than I am.

Interesting to see the Red Sox’s approach to the draft under the new CBA.. and the Cubs for that matter since Theo is now the GM there.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 13, 2011 4:31 PM EST reply actions  

Theo

is the Prez and Hoyer is the GM, but yeah Theo still calls the shots.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 13, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Red Sox, as usual, have a ton of depth.

I really like Henry Owens. Can’t wait to see what he can do in 2012.

Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN

by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 13, 2011 4:39 PM EST reply actions  

Henry Owens

My team faced him in high school. His presence on the mound is dominating. Pretty sick to have 30 scouts at our game too haha. Very excited to see what he can do in minors.

by ZeFreed on Dec 13, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

I think Owens is going to be interesting. He was a little lost in the crowd during last year’s draft.

by SenorGato on Dec 17, 2011 2:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Others

are there any C+ mixed in within the OTHERS section?

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 13, 2011 4:50 PM EST reply actions  

I didn't realize

People liked Bogaerts that much. I may have to revise my view of him… I was thinking of him as another B- guy in this system.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Dec 13, 2011 5:16 PM EST reply actions  

I get why John has Xander so high

Fascinating package, but I am really curious what type of power he carries into the upper levels and what type of discipline he shows. I was thinking more B, so it’s not like I have a major issue with his grade at B+, but considering his future is almost guaranteed to be at a corner spot, I have enough questions on the bat that it’s hard for me to buy B+. But I can understand it, I guess, on pure upside.

by toonsterwu on Dec 14, 2011 2:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Lavarnway vs Middlebrooks

Seems like an interesting debate between offensive value and defensive value. Personally, I have Ryan as a B+, and Will as a B-. But, if someone believes Will can be an above average defender and offensive player at 3B, I could understand the B – I just have some concerns about his bat ever being valuable at the ML-level – more like a Mike Lamb/Aaron Boone bat. With elite Defense, that would be a solid player, but is he going to be Adrian Beltre-level elite? Ryan, on the other hand, can survive at C for at least the next 5 years, and perhaps longer. His bat will play anywhere, but behind the dish, that makes him an elite player.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 13, 2011 5:24 PM EST reply actions  

On a side note

If Bard is going into the rotation, would the Sox trade some of their B-/C+ talent to the Brewers for K-Rod? Say one of each pair: Doubront/Tazawa, Anderson/Head, Workman/Wilson, and Iglesias/Brentz?

by cookiedabookie on Dec 13, 2011 5:30 PM EST reply actions  

I thought they didn't want to be

in luxury tax position. I think they’re looking for lower priced options. If they were going to spend that much they would be more aggressive on Madson I would think.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

But do they want to go 4 years on a closer?

Not a good history with those types of contracts. This gives them a low-risk, one year deal. If they wanted the Brewers to kick in some $, Maybe Workman, Wilson, Inglesias/Brentz?

by cookiedabookie on Dec 13, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe not

but no fewer than three, at $10-13 million per year. I still think 4 year, $45 million is my guess.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

huh?

he’ll be waiting a long time for that. check out your macroeconomic textbooks under “supply and demand”

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough

And under normal circumstances, I would agree. I just think the free agent signings this offseason have, and will continue to be, a bit crazy, considering the relative weakness of the class. Now that the Sox traded for Melacon, this probably drops somewhat, and he may take a 1 year deal to re-enter free-agency next year.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think it would even take that much for K-Rod.

He’s making a lot of money, Brewers might have to eat some salary to get a good prospect.

And considering his salary, I’m not sure Boston has the salary room to take him on.

by abbreviatedman on Dec 13, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

But they were C+/B- prospects

Not my definition of good – interesting, but not deal-breakers. More quantity vs. quality.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 13, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Instead they got Mark Melancon

For Jed Lowrie and Kyle Weiland. Think I would take K-Rod for my package, personally. Lowrie is going to explode for the Astros next year. Bold prediction – NL All-Star.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know

I think Iglesias should at least be in the top 7. Looking at some ShhAP! number with batted ball data from minor league centrak he should’ve had a 95 wRC+. That’s not great, but for a 21 year old in AAA at the most important defensive position with the potential to be the best defensive SS in the MLB, that’s definitely a top 7 Red Sox prospect.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 5:36 PM EST reply actions  

I would take

Britton over Pimentel, by a decent amount, I don’t get that.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 5:38 PM EST reply actions  

I think the Red Sox prospects tend to be a little underrated

because they don’t play in the really offensive friendly leagues like the PCL or the CAL league, and people never use park or league factors.
And the Sox also really push their prospects which has been extremely successful, but some of them like Britton, Pimentel, and especially Iglesias have bad stats because they’re in leagues that the normal organization would not put them in.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 5:49 PM EST reply actions  

16 B prospects

and you think they’re underrated?!

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Anyone

else feel like there are alot more B- and above guys this year in every system? Is there just that much talent or is there a slight paradigm shift in grading going on here?

Probably not a big deal, but an interesting trend I’ve noticed.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 13, 2011 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Historically they have been

Highest ranking by BA in parentheses
Lester (22) ranked behind Delmon Young, Ande Marte, Jeremy Hermida and too many to count.
Youkilis (never ranked) A .883 career OPS and 28.1 career WAR player never being ranked.
Papelbon (37) One of the best closers in baseball being ranked 37th. ranked behind Felix Pie and way too many busts to count
Ellsbury (13) The player with the highest single season WAR since A-Rod in 2007, behind the greatest Yankees prospect of all time who’s done SO well in the MLB, Joba Chamberlain.
Bard (81) Are you serious? Bard at 81
Pedroia (77) A player with 8 WAR, the 4th best in baseball this year being ranked behind legendary studs like Dustin Nippert. 25.7 career WAR
Buchholz (4) Buchholz was ranked very high, the highest of any Red Sox prospect ever(other than Dice K who dosen’t count) but he has played very well his whole career, was also behind the legendary Joba Chamberlain

Busts
Lars Anderson (17) Biggest bust for the sox ever, still has some hope
Bowden (83) if one of your biggest busts ever was ranked 83 at the highest it’s not that bad.
Moss (73) a lot like Bowden

Now if you compare that to the Yankees, list that’s looking pretty good

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh

every good player is going to be behind some busts. That doesn’t mean that the guy is underrated.

Presumably guys like Youkilis and Pedroia would have been ranked in the more sabermetric friendly atmosphere that exists today.

I don’t see why Joba Chamberlin being ranked high makes Red Sox prospects underrated. He was a big-time prospect and with his stuff, rightfully so.

On Papelbon its fairly impressive he was ranked as high as he was. Same for Bard. Relievers, no matter how good, just aren’t that valuable.

Again, not sure how Ellsbury at 13 is underrated. That’s damn high and plus, no one, including Red Sox fans, saw the power outburst that really improved his WAR.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 13, 2011 6:13 PM EST up reply actions  

If you made a list ranking the players on the BA top 100 on WAR

I bet all of those players, maybe not Buchholz would be ranked higher than they were. Papelbon was a starter when he was ranked that high, the Sox needed a closer and he volunteered, he was going to be a starter, but he stayed. Bard was ranked as a starter out of college, after his bad season, he dropped to 98 and was never on the list again, despite being very valuable. Ellsbury was underrated. Pick 12 players from that list better than him, as a matter of fact, pick 5. I say Longoria and Votto with Ellsbury being tied or a little better than Kershaw. Pedroia and Youkilis might’ve been ranked higher but probably not as high as they should’ve been. Wait, so you’re saying if you ranked those players today you would put Chamberlain ahead of Ellsbury and Buchholz? take a look at the Yankees prospects. I forgot Masterson, who is a great pitcher, and was ranked as high as 64

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions  

No

I would not rank Chamberlain ahead, but there were good reasons for him to be ranked that high, hence it wasn’t a bad ranking.

I just don’t look at the numbers you put up and chalk it up to be BoSox players being underrated. There have been a few misses, and the sample size is small enough that you are overreacting in my opinion.

Either way, obviously the Red Sox seem to know what they are doing, rankings or not, so just ignore them :D

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 13, 2011 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

revisionist history

It’s easy to look back now and say this guy should have been ranked much higher and that guy much lower. iif I said every Red Sox prospect was better than every Yankees prospect would you feel better and vut out the whining?

by Looney4baseball on Dec 13, 2011 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

egads, spell check is my friend.

That should read: It’s easy to look back now and say this guy should have been ranked much higher and that guy much lower. If I said every Red Sox prospect was better than every Yankees prospect would you feel better and cut out the whining?

by Looney4baseball on Dec 13, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Chamberlain being ranked so high

Was perfectly legitimate. Look at his minor league numbers and remember how good his stuff used to be before the Yankees treated him like a refugee and threw him all over the ballpark

Brandon Jacobs of Lowell > Brandon Jacobs of NYG

by Lesterfan on Dec 14, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Geez, Dude, let go of the Yankees

Don’t you realize, that to everyone else, the Red Sox are the Yankees? The Yankee system has done just fine turning out talent of late (Robinson Cano, David Robertson, Ian Kennedy, Austin Jackson, Brett Gardner, etc). They’ve had their misses, too, but right now I wouldn’t trade the Yankee system to get the Red Sox system straight up. Whingeing about the Yankees when someone pokes the Red Sox system is pretty lame, IMHO.

by d_c_guy on Dec 13, 2011 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

i might make that trade

yankees: banuleos, betances, sanchez, williams…some sleepers like marshall…it would be a lot closer than most people think.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 13, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, that's not even close to the talent the Red Sox have gotten out of their system

I was limiting it to players currently on the team but if you include Jackson and Kennedy, I’ll play that game.

Yankees players career WAR Cano, Robertson, kennedy, Jackson, Gardner
58.7 WAR
Red Sox players career WAR Lester, Papelbon, Pedroia, Ellsbury, Youkilis, Masterson, Hanley, Bard, Buchholz.
162.6

Not even close.

I wouldn’t take the Yankees system over the Sox, I think they’re a little hyped, they’re good, but look at their past systems, and system rankings.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude

You’re comparing 5 players of the Yankees system to 9 of the Red Sox, and most of the Yankees players there have a ton less experience. That’s a god awful way to compare WAR. You might have a point, but this is not a good way to make it.

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 13, 2011 10:41 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Nothing is over until we decide it is!

Bluto: What? Over? Did you say “over”? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Otter: [to Boon] Germans?

Boon: Forget it, he’s rolling.

by Looney4baseball on Dec 14, 2011 9:53 AM EST up reply actions  

lets just compare the 2012 MiLB lists

there is no point comparing the history of minor league/prospect development. That’s just a waste of time. I was strictly talking 2012…the yankees have some nice pieces and it is something to consider. I see Banuleos and Betances as potential A-’s. So there is room for discussion.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

'Don’t you realize, that to everyone else, the Red Sox are the Yankees?'

True. Most people get that obviously, but some Red Sox fans still seemingly attempt to adopt the ‘crestfallen underdog raging against the big market machine’ train of thought (this is beyond laughable btw) despite the fact that the organizations are absolutely comparable by just about any measure.

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

haha

that’s pretty good.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 13, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

i dunno

i think it’s at least worth floating as an idea. “red sox prospects are overrated” is a sentiment i see a lot. but, back around 06-07, seeing that, and being a red sox fan myself, i kept on trying to correct for it, and mostly kept on getting burned as a result. we were all low on pedroia. people kept on trying to insist gardner was just as good as ellsbury because, they were both fast, or whatever. dave cameron chortled mightily when somebody suggested it might be a good move for the mariners to trade jeremy reed for lester and papelbon. there’s large-market bias out there, but there’s also such a thing as overcorrecting for large-market bias.

with that said i personally do think middlebrooks and iglesias are bizarrely overrated – not so much by john here, but in general. iglesias more last year than this year i guess, people aren’t talking about him like the Jose Iglesias Era is Coming to Boston the way they were last year. that was weird.

by wily mo on Dec 14, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Gardner = Ellsbury? I never really saw that at all

My perception (and I visit Pinstripe Alley pretty frequently) is that Gardner completely snuck up on most Yankee fans; there was very little hype on him coming up through the system. Even now it’s only slowly dawning on many Yankee fans how valuable Gardner has been for them. To me, Ellsbury got a lot more hype and had been regarded as a disappointment prior to breaking out (and how!) in 2011.

by d_c_guy on Dec 14, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Gardner was seen as a fourth outfielder, and was never ranked by BA. He has averaged 5.2 WAR per 162 games. Ellsbury has averaged 4.4 WAR per 162 games.
Oh, and Cano was never ranked by BA either. Neither was Robertson, despite having better results in the minors than Bard. Kennedy only made it to 45, lower than Papelbon, even though he had better results in the minors and a better draft pedigree.
Actually, the Yankees might have a better argument of being underrated.
And Albert Pujols was only ranked #42 by BA, so the Cards prospects must be really underrated.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Yankees prospects seem very binary to me

Some of them got tons of attention and were at some point seen as gods among men (Montero, Joba, Hughes) while others get no attention but end up as valuable pieces to a contending team (Gardner, Robertson, Cano).

Brandon Jacobs of Lowell > Brandon Jacobs of NYG

by Lesterfan on Dec 14, 2011 1:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

It seems that if a Yankee prospect isn’t considered elite, nobody pays any attention to him what so ever until he is producing in the majors compared to other systems, such as Bostons, where you find 100 comment arguments about B level prospects like Iglesias

Brandon Jacobs of Lowell > Brandon Jacobs of NYG

by Lesterfan on Dec 14, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

This is true, ha

See Xander Bogaerts for one. The fact that the pervasive overrating of Boston prospects hasn’t somehow extended to Brandon Jacobs by & large does baffle me though..

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I would hope

that a lot of the followers of this site are well aware enough of the difference in leagues to take that into consideration when judging talent.

I tend to think this list is okay, if not somewhat overrating the Red Sox system slightly. There simply aren’t many worthwhile chips at the upper levels, and there’s a lot of hit or miss. Feels like a lot of borderline B-/C+ cases leaned towards the B- side.

It’s possible all these assets will develop as positively as you seem to think they might (or whoever it was that posted recently about the Red Sox and Top 100 prospects), but the hit or miss factor, plus the lack of a high number of quality upper level chips makes me a bit wary at this juncture to be that positive about the system. I think it’s a solid middle of the pack system right now.

by toonsterwu on Dec 14, 2011 2:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Iglesias v. Hechavarria

Very similar players, and linked due to their signing as Cuban refugees around about the same time. What I don’t understand is Iglesias as a B- and Hechavarria as a C+. Hech may be 9 months older, but he’s also shown significantly more offensive potential (some power, a great stretch in AAA). Their BB/K peripherals are very similar. I could see giving Hech the edge between the two, but shouldn’t they at least be at the same grade?

by gabrielsyme on Dec 13, 2011 6:08 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know

people love to throw out good glove comparisons to Iglesias, but Iglesias’ defense is a lot better. People really need to see him, he has been called the best defensive SS ever, I did a fielding stat with MLB gameday hit location, and he was the best fielder in the entire minor leagues, period.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Tell that to

Ryan Theriot, Jack Wilson, Alcides Esccobar, Rey Ordonez, Rey Sanchez, David Eckstein, et al too numerous to list

Iglesias can have a nice career in the majors with a 80-90 wRC+ bat just because of his defense. If there is any position where you forgo the bat in favor of the glove its SS especially in the NL. That said, he may need to be traded out of the AL East.

I see him with a ceiling of Omar Vizquel and a floor of someone like Ordonez

by BobZupcic on Dec 14, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Theriot, Wilson, & Eckstein

all hit enough early in their careers to become everyday players. Not so sure that Ordonez or Sanchez would be more than UT players today and Escobar isn’t sure to remain a regular at this rate.

This is the point… Iglesias may have a fine career as a UT IFer at this point but if he can hit a little bit he could carve out a better career. If he cannot hit ML pitching than he could be the next Chin Iung Hu.

It seems odd to me to see a B given out to a guy that has just 1 plus skill. Would you expect to see a superb defensive OFer to get a B if his hit skill is questionable? what about a catcher?

I don’t want to get too hung up over the grades but I’m now expecting Matt DenDekker to get a B-. ;-)

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Escobar is a regular fo sho!

R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix

by doublestix on Dec 14, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm responding to "no one will care..."

Which implies that he has no chance at a major elague career. I could give two rats about prospect “grades”

by BobZupcic on Dec 14, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Not even

disagreeing with you, but you seem to think Jose can be an average overall hitter. If his glove is that freakin good, what grade would you give him?

A-. It’d have to be something that good right. B+ at the very least.

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Dec 13, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions  

His glove is so good, he will win a silver slugger!

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 13, 2011 10:35 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Escobar got a B+, if I remember right

Not quite the same hype on the glove (but close), but a much better projected bat.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Quite good to great isn’t that big a difference, even if we accept a conservative view of Hech’s defence and the most rosy of views of Iglesias’ defence. Both still need to hit respectably to be of value at the ML level, and Hechavarria provides a fair bit more hope on that front.

by gabrielsyme on Dec 13, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Iglesias has better offense

your basing your stats off 116 PA’s which pizza cutter studied and found has no reliablilty. I found that wRC+ stabilizes at 300 PA’s. Hechavarria at his more reliable sample of 502 PA’s at a lower level and older than Iglesias had a 63 wRC+ compared to a 79 wRC+ for Iglesias. They should both improve a lot, my xBABIP calculator has Iglesias 51 points higher than he should be and Hechavarria 46 but Iglesias should improve more. I think Iglesias has a better bat than Hechavarria

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 6:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m taking everything into account. Iglesias’ better AA wRC+ (which was 83 according to Fangraphs, btw) was solely based on a good BABIP – his peripherals there were inferior across the board to Hech’s numbers in AA. Just on the basis of their AA numbers I think the two are equal, and let’s not pretend Iglesias did anything at AAA to make us think his bat is improving.

You can’t throw out Hech’s 116 PA in AAA (and 78 respectable ones in the AFL as well- .250/.308/.444). Combine them with his AA track record and you have a guy with significantly better power, and an improving and slightly better walk rate. Again, I don’t see how you can prefer the bat of a guy who put up a .034 ISO in nearly 400 PA.

by gabrielsyme on Dec 13, 2011 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

You can throw them out because

the sample size isn’t big enough. D’oh I used Iglesias’ major league wRC+, which was an extremely small sample size. I still think he’s a better hitter than Hechavarria because he’s almost a year younger and at a higher level. He was like 2 years younger at AA than Hechavarria is now.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 10:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Sample sizes

No you can’t throw small samples out, but I’m afraid you’ve thrown your own credibility out a little. Sample sizes aren’t binary (full value and no value) but cumulative. Every plate appearance adds information: it’s not like the 300th PA vindicates all that came before such that one can finally trust the first 299 PAs. You just need to give the appropriate weight to different sample sizes, which is precisely what I’ve tried to do.

Hech played AA in 2010 as well: and put up better peripherals to Iglesias then as well as in 2011. Iglesias’ production in AAA doubtless was against superior competition to the Eastern League, but it’s not as if Hechavarria had difficulty adjusting to the higher level. I think the real argument for Iglesias is that he’s nearly 9 months younger than Hechavarria, but I’ll take Hech’s 10 extra-base hits in 116 AAA PA vs. Iglesias’ 10 in 387 PA.

by gabrielsyme on Dec 14, 2011 12:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you

Adeiny Hechavarria at least offers some hope of a modicum of punch at the dish currently, while Jose Iglesias likely faces an uphill battle to even approximate Hechavarria. Even if Iglesias is Ozzie Smith incarnate in the field, I have doubts that he can be a regular SS with his lack of hitting ability. I wouldn’t bet on it personally.

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

And there is no way he is even as valuable as Ozzie with the bat

Ozzie averaged 3.1 Offensive WAR per 162 games played over his career, including his decline. Inglesias will maybe top out at 1.5-2.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 14, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh god no & absolutely agree

Sorry if that was ambiguous in any way. When I typed ‘in the field’ I was referring to defensive capabilities only.

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

based on these grades,

I could see a lot more B grades in the Met system than I would have previously thought.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 13, 2011 6:13 PM EST reply actions  

Stolmy

Someone asked me about why Stolmy went from almost being left on the list to #19.

The answer to that is that I tapped some sources who gave me better information about what was going on than what I had before.

by John Sickels on Dec 13, 2011 6:57 PM EST reply actions  

CBM

Went from #11/B- in 2011 to off the list this year. Curious why that is the case, particularly since it looked like he held his own upon his promotion to AA midseason 2011, albeit while suffering a huge uptick in BABIP vs (.387) – his FIP was still 3.50. Thanks.

by dbreer23 on Dec 13, 2011 7:22 PM EST reply actions  

Iglesias with a better grade than Beckham?

Is this a joke?

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 13, 2011 8:21 PM EST reply actions  

So possibly a joke?

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 13, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think you're being insulting

and in a way that makes you seem very close-minded.

But “so possibly a joke?” is still a great line.

by abbreviatedman on Dec 13, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

My posts are mostly humor when I'm being insulting.

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 13, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd actually take Iglesias pretty easily.

Plus plus glove SS .554 OPS as a 21 year old (raw Cuban) in AAA… OR Likely 3B with .734 OPS as a 21 year old in AA?

Iglesias handled AA a full year younger than Beckham. Iglesias hit .285/.315/.357 while Beckham hit .275/.339/.395.

On top of that I saw both guys live this year and much preferred Iglesias – who at least does something major league well (glove). Iglesias also has a nicer looking swing and more bat speed.

There’s this as well-
Iglesias: 15% K rate, 5.4% BB rate
Beckham: 19.4% K rate (20.7% SSS AAA), 8.2% BB rate (7.1% SSS AAA).

Iglesias is in my top 150. Beckham was not considered. Still haven’t talked to any pro talent evaluators or writers who are high on Beckham.

by alskor on Dec 13, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Not for nothin

but Beckham also got 1557 ABs as a pro before reaching AAA. Iglesias only got 261 (and only 40 below AA) – and still got there younger than Beckham.

by alskor on Dec 13, 2011 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't give Iglegias bonus point for being rushed.

He didn’t exactly earn his way into AAA. He should probably be in A+, or should have been in 2011.

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 14, 2011 8:31 AM EST up reply actions  

And despite the number of ABs, Beckham, like Iglesias, is young for his league.

Are you saying if he had gotten his ABs in Cuba, he’d be as bad as Iglesias? Probably not, but really, what was your point?

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 14, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions  

My point was he was rushed and challenged and his performance has suffered dramatically.

The reason he was rushed is because of his natural hitting ability – they wanted to challenge him so that he became more selective and less of a free swinger. He saw some success at AA (especially before he got hurt) and so to keep challenging him and let him work on pitch recognition they put him at AAA.

by alskor on Dec 14, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions  

i would rather have Beckham's AA line.

Iglesias hit .285/.315/.357 while Beckham hit .275/.339/.395.

although i do agree that Iglesias deserves more time to develop his hit tool, and i think there is a chance he becomes a more valuable player, especially if beckham moves to 3rd.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know the answer to this, but maybe you do

What were his numbers prior to his injury?

What was the injury?

How many PA?

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 14, 2011 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is Beckham a likely 3b?

And a difference of .180 OPS is massive. .554 isn’t usable at any level.

this isn't DRB
you don’t get a free pass for acting like a douchebag.
Derp
by Pikachu on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 14, 2011 8:36 AM EST up reply actions  

This.

I think we will laugh about this one in a while.

by mr. maniac on Dec 14, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Do you mean in the 8th/9th inning whilst nursing a lead?

I can’t imagine that Jose Iglesias can be trotted out as a regular on a contender at any point in the near future & almost certainly not in Boston. Right?

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

he needs a full 2012 in AAA

before we make a hard line decision. His glove is worth the wait. plus with Jed Lowrie gone…Iglesias better figure it out sooner than later.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

No doubt

Even if Tim Beckham is a 2b/3b (Christ, even if he’s an OF), I think he has a shot to be a MLB regular. Jose Iglesias is John McDonald at best to me at this point & for all the veteran’s defensive strengths, he’s never been an actual serviceable everyday player to me.

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

he only has 618 professional AB's

we may be jumping the gun a bit.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Having seen Beckham

I don’t think he has the mobility or actions for the middle infield long term. His lower half looks like its going to get much thicker and slow him down even more. I think his arm will play best at 3B.

by alskor on Dec 14, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions  

my 2 cents

love – coyle and cecchini’s rankings and writeups

question – iglesias and bradley’s grades, don’t really like either enough for more than C+

kind of disapointed that vazquez and head didn’t get better grades, excited for them both, vazquez was a completely different hitter this year and head’s year shouldn’t be discounted so much because of his numbers after the promotion. i know u said vazquez could easily move up and i hope he does for the book!

"Hello. My name is Matthew Berry. I am on a Fantasy Jihad. Prepare to die!"

by Dominatio on Dec 13, 2011 9:35 PM EST reply actions  

Iglesias is much better than a C+

he got EXTREMELY UNLUCKY with BABIP. He had a .279 BABIP with a .330 xBABIP. using SHhAP BIP, his wRC+ should be 94. A little below average wRC+ with an incredible glove at a premium position while being the 2nd youngest position player in the league when the youngest only had 111 PAs. That is a B+ to me, if you think he will continue this hitting, (which is really dumb) maybe a C+, but you have no clue if you think that.

by Bososx13 on Dec 13, 2011 9:41 PM EST reply actions  

Listen, the guy came into the league with questions about his hitting

And in 2 minor league seasons he has done absolutely nothing to belay those fears, to me, he might have made the fears worse. I want him to hit and all, but I think Theo was too aggressive with him and that might have ruined his hitting for the long term. I think he’ll have a good MLB career, but I don’t think he’ll make it to average with the bat.

Joe, the reason we shout "WE ARE" and the reason the answer will always be "PENN STATE"

by Rogue Nine on Dec 13, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think his hitting is "ruined", but at the same time

I think at times we can get a little too caught up in the more esoteric statistics, especially when applying stats that attempt to explain what should have happened at the minor league level. It’s a good idea to keep Occam’s Razor at the ready in sabermetrics; the fact is, Iglesias just hasn’t been very good at the plate, and no amount of statistics intended to show what should have happened can truly change that. It seems like a more prudent course of analysis to work on figuring out why this gap between what should be and what is happens to exist, rather than taking the opposite view that “what should have been” is the truth and therefore Iglesias is actually a pretty good performer. He just isn’t.

by mrkupe on Dec 13, 2011 10:37 PM EST up reply actions  

You can't just equate BABIP with luck

On the extremes it’s reasonable to look at to see if a performance in a small sample is sustainable, but you can’t just adjust Iglesias’ BABIP to his xBABIP and assume that he actually would have been that good if not for bad luck. Minor league batted ball data is not especially reliable, plus it is very possible that Iglesias is a guy who happened to make weak contact against higher level pitchers, thus underperforming his xBABIP.

http://www.yankeeanalysts.com

by lemonjello on Dec 14, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

i think you need to pump the brakes a little on this one.

Iglesias needs to be viewed as a player who while now is a C+ can still reach B+ levels with an improved hit tool…anything above C+ would be reckless. I like Iglesias more than most but even i can see he needs to be viewed as a “wait and see” type player. John has a reputation to protect here.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

i mean C+ if hech is a C+

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Iglesias and Lavarnway are Frank Gorshin in two kinds of black and white makeup

Iglesias and Lavarnway are mirrors images, though Lavarnway is a year or two ahead. Lavarnway always had a plus plus bat, but was a project on D and has made great progress but still has work to do. Iglesias is already an elite glove, and his O needs as much work as Lavarnway’s D needed a year or so ago. Plus both have had to adjust after coming from foreign countries (Cuba and Yale).

by Jim in NC on Dec 13, 2011 10:31 PM EST reply actions  

Actually,

I think Jason Brown is more appropriate. “But what about Lazerus?”

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Dec 15, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Andrew Bailey trade

Which prospects could be included?

by J.J. Miller on Dec 14, 2011 12:57 AM EST reply actions  

Probably at least two very good ones

When considering Andrew Bailey’s three years of cost effective team control & talent level, I doubt he’ll come cheaply. Maybe something like Brandons Jacobs, Workman & a lower level guy like Felix Doubront (or is that too light without a ‘headliner’..)?

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Intriguing system

A lot of interesting high-ceiling talent at the lower levels, but not much in the way of impact upper-level talent (Middlebrooks seems more like a solid regular type to me, though Lavarnaway has potential if he can stick behind the plate). Bogaerts is certainly very intriguing, but I think shiny new toy syndrome has probably caused him to be ranked a little higher than I would rank him. The power is certainly legit, but I’m not sure that his hit tool or plate discipline at present make him an elite prospect, especially since he’s likely not a shortstop long term.

I’m very curious to see what Jacobs, Cecchini and Coyle can do at higher levels of competition, ditto Ranaudo (who was disappointing this year) and Barnes. This has the potential to be a very good system in a year or two, but there’s also a lot of risk given that most of the top talent has little to no upper level experience.

http://www.yankeeanalysts.com

by lemonjello on Dec 14, 2011 1:27 AM EST reply actions  

A weak 2009 draft and trades from other drafts have left the top weak

Also a long dearth in international talent. However, signings like Boegarts and a strong last two drafts have caused the system to be at the level that you described

Brandon Jacobs of Lowell > Brandon Jacobs of NYG

by Lesterfan on Dec 14, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Barnes

I admit I wasn’t as high on him as others, so I tend to think B+ is a tiny bit high for him, but on a whole separate note, is there any significant concern with his mechanics? The few times I remember seeing him last year, something always bothered me about his arm action (and hence why I was never as high on him as many others), but I haven’t gone back and taken a it in awhile.

by toonsterwu on Dec 14, 2011 2:37 AM EST reply actions  

Boston Hype

This list is a pretty good example of what the perception of being a supposedly “smart” organization can do for the ratings of prospects.

While Red Sox prospects of a Baseball generation (i.e. 5 to 7 years) ago like Papelbon, Youkilis, Pedroia, Ellsbury or Lester may have been somewhat underrated, the current generation is clearly somewhat overrated. This phenomenon certainly isn´t limited to John Sickels but to most prospect experts. It basically means that when in doubt, generally Red Sox prospects tend to get the higher grade than they would get with a different organization, say, the Mets or Astros, which isn´t considered all that smart (or at least used to be considered as that).

Don´t get me wrong, this is a very solid system with a lot of prospect depth in it. However, it appears that most of these grades are rather “friendly” and tend to take organizational context like past track record into account. Kind of funny that Casey Kelly´s star pretty much started fading away a bit the day he left the BOS organization although his performance did improve while his age remains young & his experience level has remained pretty modest.

The Braves and by now Rays (except for Tim Beckham, of course, who is punished for not living up to # 1 overall hype) & Rangers probably are in a somewhat similar position, based on their recent success with young players and the general peception as being smart.

by Doob on Dec 14, 2011 4:35 AM EST reply actions  

Not sure I can address the overall point.

But Casey Kelly’s star dimmed for perfectly valid reasons. Just as Anthony Rizzo’s star brightened for perfectly valid reasons.

by abbreviatedman on Dec 14, 2011 8:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfalsifiable

A lot of these guys were considered good draft picks at the time, before they were Red Sox players (Cecchhini, Swihart, Coyle, Wilson, Workman, Vitek etc.) and others had been considered good prospects but had down years (Pimental, Doubront, Iglesias, etc.).

I think an important point is that not all B- prospects are the same, and almost all these guys get an asterisk because of their upside as potential top prospects. They don’t all have to “hit”, but if 2-3 of those B- types do, the system probably vaults toward to the top of the charts.

It also sort of stands to reason that the Sox have a deep system of high upside guys considering that they continue giving high signing bonuses into the late rounds.

by whonichol on Dec 14, 2011 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

I thought this a year ago

A year ago, this system had really been thinned out at the top, from trades or graduations, and it seemed like a lot of mediocre prospects were getting hyped in order to fill the void. John’s top 5 last year was Ranaudo, Britton, Iglesias, Reddick, Pimentel. I thought that was a really weak group, and thought some guys were getting over-hyped (though not so much by John, but in general). I thought a few guys were over-rated the previous year as well.

But I actually like the collection of bats here this year. A lot of these guys are still far away, but Boston has really pulled a good quantity of talent out of the last 2 drafts, with 7 top 40 picks in those 2 drafts, plus a willingness to pay big bonuses a bit later on as well. That does leave them with some pretty good depth emerging.

by acerimusdux on Dec 16, 2011 3:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Hilarious

to read how highly rated these Boston prospects are marked by Sox fans. A lot of average talent getting ecessively valued. When they get into another team’s system or get promoted to the bigs, they are suddenly seen for what they really are — not much.

by Hairylady on Dec 14, 2011 9:01 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Yes.

This is a Red Sox blog, you know.

by abbreviatedman on Dec 14, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions  

How ahh these guys not all A+'s?

This is the greatest minah league group of owa genahration. You ah all just disrespecting Bruins Celtics PATRIOTS Red Sox Nation.

by The Gottfather on Dec 14, 2011 9:50 AM EST reply actions   4 recs

What!?!

Iglesias is going to make Mark Belanger look like Hanley Ramirez playing shortstop…

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

You mean at the plate, don't you?

Brain: "Pinky, are you pondering what i'm pondering?"
Pinky: "Yes, ... wait, ... no, ... never mind"

by jbg2772 on Dec 15, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Xander Bogaerts

I’m a big fan of his and my Red Sox list is almost the same as yours. I’m high on Cechhini and Jacobs as well and not so high the guys you seem to be…. but how would you compare Xander Bogaerts to Gary Sanchez of the Yankees? Similar numbers at the same level. Both currently at premium positions(SS and Catcher) but with questions if they can stay there. IMO Sanchez has a better bet to stick at catcher.

by TheHughesUnit on Dec 14, 2011 10:08 AM EST reply actions  

Sanchez

is the comparison I have used with Bogaerts a number of times. The stats this year are very similar, but I think Sanchez gets dinged because he got off to a slow start and had some maturity issues, while Bogaerts is the shiny new toy who came onto the scene seemingly out of nowhere. I frequently see Bogaerts rated at least 20-30 spots ahead of Sanchez on lists which seems pretty silly to me for the reasons you mentioned.

http://www.yankeeanalysts.com

by lemonjello on Dec 14, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Bogaerts also gets raves about his make up

for what that’s worth…

Also, if Sanchez can’t Catch, his defensive value is very limited. Bogaerts could potentially provide significant defensive value by beinga 3b or some limted value by being a RF.

So the range of positions is better.

by FDRNEWDEAL on Dec 15, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree with this

But 20-30 spot difference is too much in my opinion. I have them 12 spots apart, with Xander ahead of Gary, specifically because Xander could still provide defensive value at 3B if he moves off SS, and Gary doesn’t have anywhere to move where he can do the same.

by cookiedabookie on Dec 15, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree Sanchez is somewhat overlooked

in large part due to how much press he got in 2010, furthermore, I recal the initial claims about his glove being very encouraging.

I think the fact that some now question his ability to catch, likely has too dramatic of an impact.

by FDRNEWDEAL on Dec 15, 2011 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

let's add that Jacobs at B is another generous grade.

High K rate and does anyone really think he will be able to maintain a .381 babip ? Once that normalizes, he’s closer to a .250 hitter?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 11:07 AM EST reply actions  

I get it that he has age on his side right now.

Still seems like a generous grade till he gets those hit peripherals in line a bit better, imo.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions  

K rate

I’m not overly concerned about this facet of Brandon Jacobs on the whole. This was his first exposure to full season play & he actually had upped his contact rates considerably over the summer months until seeing it balloon late. Jacobs’ has a fast, short swing in my opinion & makes hard contact so I believe that a lot of his adjustments were due in part to his level of rawness. Don’t get me wrong, strikeouts will almost always likely be part of his game at the plate (as they are for a large percentage of valid power prospects), but I worry less about that with him than some other talented bat first guys in A ball in 2011. I think an eventual percentage betwwen 20-25 percent is just fine & his athleticism shouldn’t be overlooked either.

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

that's fine, but

what do his numbers look like with a 20%+ K rate and a normal babip average in the .320 range, even .330?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

He’s getting a lot of credit for making progress on his K rate because he was a 2-sport guy in HS. That he’s learning is a great sign.

by rlwhite on Dec 14, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

He is a two sport athlete

With a scholarship to Auburn, an excellent football school. This means he was not as devoted to baseball as many other prospects so the fact that he has shown so many skills so early is what gives him a B grade. I worry about the BABIP regression too though to be fair.

Brandon Jacobs of Lowell > Brandon Jacobs of NYG

by Lesterfan on Dec 14, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Melancon, says Rosenthal

plus Lowrie. that’s interesting..Lowrie could do well there, if he gets a full-time gig.

by PrincetonCubs on Dec 14, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, Lowrie+Weiland for Melancon.

And by transitive property, Lowrie+Weiland+Paredes for Berkman. Not bad.

I may be married but my ass belongs to Chloe Denmark.

The University of Texas at Austin: A limousine ridin', jet flyin', kiss stealin', wheelin' dealin' son of a gun. WOOO!

by lhb98 on Dec 14, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

probably speeds

up the arrival of the “otherworldly” SS to Boston. ;-)

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions  

All Marco Scutaro, all the time

Let’s wait & see until the ‘golden child’ can OPS .600 in AA first.

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

AAA

He actually posted an OPS over .650 (!) in 57 games in the Eastern League in 2010. I know, exciting stuff.

by Matt0330 on Dec 14, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

wow.

Melancon goes back to AL East. I wonder who becomes closer candidate in Houston.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

who's left for Madson?

he will end up being a bargain. Tampa? Texas? Cinc? Wash? StL?

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Houston.

They’ll sign him for 1 year to get to minimum salary after trading Myers and Wandy, then trade him by the deadline.

/this would actually be a good strategy

I may be married but my ass belongs to Chloe Denmark.

The University of Texas at Austin: A limousine ridin', jet flyin', kiss stealin', wheelin' dealin' son of a gun. WOOO!

by lhb98 on Dec 14, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

You have to have a lead to close.

That will happen maybe 30 time this year.

I may be married but my ass belongs to Chloe Denmark.

The University of Texas at Austin: A limousine ridin', jet flyin', kiss stealin', wheelin' dealin' son of a gun. WOOO!

by lhb98 on Dec 14, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

roger that.

didn’t say it’s a bad deal for Hous.

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Dec 14, 2011 12:01 PM EST up reply actions  

they have some live arms

but i assume Brandon Lyon will get the first chance.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 14, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

My guess

David Carpenter, or perhaps Juan Abreu later in the year.

by kyuss94 on Dec 15, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Ryan Westmoreland

John – any thoughts on Westmoreland? I know there might not be a more unique case out there with his medical history (and obviously I’m just happy the young man appears to be making a full recovery for his life). I think he was scheduled to be in the Dominican winter league this/last week.

by AGuinness on Dec 14, 2011 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

Not DWL, but Dominican Instructs. Got 5 at-bats as a DH.

Still not at the point where you can project his future at all, but as you say, the fact that he’s even able to set goals beyond living a healthy life is amazing.

by Chatfield21 on Dec 15, 2011 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Projecting

I guess I’m just interested in hearing if John has heard anything about Ryan’s recovery. Baseball is of lesser importance when it comes to his health, but he is starting the comeback trail. I’d love to know what people inside the game think/see, because I’d guess that people are starting to see/think things now that he’s swinging a bat and all.

by AGuinness on Dec 15, 2011 8:34 PM EST up reply actions  

ryan

I haven’t heard anything that isn’t already public knowledge.

by John Sickels on Dec 16, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm sure glad your list went past 20 on this team, John :)

I would have been in a panic if Alcantara got lumped in with the others. There might be something very special there, and what buzz he’s getting has been good. Happy with the grade and the write-up. And he just turned 20 this month. :) Thanks.

by Ryno1984 on Dec 14, 2011 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

Quick question for John in wake of the Astros/Sox trade

Where would Weiland fit in amongst the Astros C+ pitching prospects?

by kyuss94 on Dec 15, 2011 12:37 AM EST reply actions  

still not buying Swihart.

Admittedly this isn’t based on much but he appears to have a pretty slight frame for a C. He’s going to have to add some bulk to have more credibility imo, or at least this early on. As I’ve seen with other grades, I’d have leaned this one to a “C+ till we see some data” before getting the B- benefit of the doubt. Admittedly, there isn’t a big difference. just sayin’

by ThnkGoodnessforHowieRose on Jan 20, 2012 1:02 PM EST reply actions  

Jackie Bradley jr

I guess any ranking for JBJ would be difficult based on small minor league sampling. But somehow a B- and #12 seems off to me.

Looking forward to seeing him right the ship in 2012.

by bryeic on Jan 21, 2012 6:25 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Minor League Ball: Where the Future of Baseball is Discussed

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Minor League Ball Gameday, 5/25 MILB
Me_at_8_small
Minor League Ball Gameday Discussion, MiLB 5/24
Me_at_8_small
Today in Minor League Baseball Discussion, MiLB 5/23
Me_at_8_small
MiLB 5/22
Me_at_8_small
MiLB 5/21

Recent FanPosts

1986-mets-ray-knight_small
MOD: Mets #7 (2012 War Room)
Stmatthew_small
Tampa Bay Rays Draft Room
Me_at_8_small
Minor League Ball Gameday Discussion, MiLB 5/26
Small
Texas Rangers: Draft War Room
Small
Washington Nationals MOD 3
Xander_small
Red Sox MOD: Draft Room
Small
Padres MOD #4 (Final MOD)
1986-mets-ray-knight_small
MOD: Mets #6 (2012 Review)
Small
Good luck everyone.....

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

March2111_084_small John Sickels

Jeri_avatar_small mssickels

Editors

Small Craig Goldstein

Authors

Headshot_small dougdirt

Mblpglogo_small Matt Garrioch

Small SethSpeaks

Osnation2_small Jordan Tuwiner

Img00006-20101226-1702_small Ray Guilfoyle

Lax-xl_small Marisa Ingemi

Small Marc Hulet

Moderators

Small mrkupe


Site Meter