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Houston Astros Top 20 Prospects for 2012

Houston Astros Top 20 Prospects for 2012

THIS LIST WAS REVISED JANUARY 18, 2012

The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Comments are welcome, but in the end all analysis and responsibility is mine of course. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!

Star-divide

QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:

Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.

Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.

Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don't make it at all.

A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters. Many Grade A pitching prospects fail to develop, often due to injuries. Some Grade C pitching prospects turn out much better than expected.

Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise coming from me, and some C+ prospects turn out very well indeed.

Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment in the book for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.

1) Jonathan Singleton, 1B, Grade B+: Acquired in the Hunter Pence deal with the Phillies. You can make a case for an A-, although he hasn't yet fully tapped into his natural power. I think he might need a bit more time than people think, but still an elite prospect.

2) George Springer, OF, Grade B+: Much broader tool base than Singleton, but exactly two years and one day older, which makes a difference. I think he made real progress with his swing and contact ability this year. Impressive power/speed/walks package even if he doesn't hit for a high average.

3) Jarred Cosart, RHP, Grade B: Excellent arm strength, but pitchability seemed to take a small step backwards last year. Strikeout rate is low for a guy who throws as hard as he does and he needs command refinements. Another part of the Pence trade.

4) Jonathan Villar, SS, Grade B-: He's very young, has been pushed too quickly in my view, and has some serious contact problems to resolve. He also has double-digit homer and steal potential and great defensive tools. High risk, high-reward player. Grade A tools, grade C skills.

5) Paul Clemens, RHP, Grade B-: Part of the Michael Bourn deal with the Braves. Solid stuff, has made progress with command, projects as a number three or four starter for me.

6) Mike Foltynewicz, RHP, Grade C+: I probably like him more than I should. Strong fastball, secondary pitches still works-in-progress but I think he can be a mid-rotation guy if everything works out.

7) Domingo Santana, OF, Grade C+: Exceptional power potential and was just 18 years old in the Sally League. He's also got serious issues with strikeouts/contact and plate discipline. Similar problems have killed many careers. Like Villar, Santana has a very high ceiling but a very low floor.

8) Brett Oberholtzer, LHP, Grade C+: Part of the Bourn deal with Atlanta, average velocity but mixes his pitches well. Could be a nice number four starter but not a huge upside.

9) Kyle Weiland, RHP, Grade C+: Acquired from Red Sox. Got knocked around in major league trial, has the stuff to be a four/five starter if he improves his location.

10) Delino DeShields, 2B, Grade C+: Another high-ceiling low-floor high-risk guy with tools who lacks refinement. Hit just .220 in the Sally League but swiped 30 bases.

11) Adrian Houser, RHP, Grade C+: Second round pick from an Oklahoma high school, performance in rookie ball was spotty but could develop into a number three starter.

12) Telvin Nash, 1B-OF, Grade C+: Enormous raw power, but fanned 105 times in 281 at-bat in Low-A and GCL rehab assignment. Little defensive value. Cecil Fielder-like upside if he can make enough contact but that is a big IF.

13) Nick Tropeano, RHP, Grade C+: Stony Brook product lacks plus velocity but changes speeds extremely well, could develop into a solid inning-eater type.

14) Austin Wates, OF, Grade C+: Hits for average, swiped 26 bases in High-A, good athlete, but lack of distance power could be a hindrance.

15) Jiovanni Mier, SS, Grade C: The Astros have not given up on him, still young, athletic, respected defense, but hitting is very questionable.

16) Tanner Bushue, RHP, Grade C: Still projectable and young, but progress has stalled and he's had problems staying healthy. Too young to give up on of course at age 20.

17) Juan Abreu, RHP, Grade C: Older prospect acquired from the Braves, but has a lively arm and can be very effective middle man if he maintains his command. If you want immediate impact rank him higher than this.

18) Ariel Ovando, OF, Grade C: Impressive power potential but did not hit well in the Appalachian League. Given the $2,600,000 invested in him, they will be as patient as possible and he's just 18.

19) Ross Seaton, RHP, Grade C: Still has the raw material to be a good pitcher, and he's been badly rushed. It would not surprise me to see him perform much better in his second attempt at Corpus Christi.

20) Jake Buchanan, RHP, Grade C: Doesn't have a high upside, but keeps the ball down, throws strikes, and was one of the few pitchers able to survive and prosper at High-A Lancaster. Sleeper guy to watch for 2012.

21) Chris Wallace, C, Grade C: Like Buchanan, Wallace is a college product (University of Houston in his case) who doesn't have a high upside but could be a useful role player, in this case as a power-hitting catcher with fair defense. Power-hitting first base prospect Kody Hinze would also fit in that category although he'll have less glove value.

OTHERS: Ruben Alaniz, RHP; Jack Armstrong Jr., RHP; Jay Austin, OF; Adam Bailey, OF; Xavier Cedeno, LHP; Jorge De Leon, RHP; Dayan Diaz, RHP; Jake Goebbert, OF; Kyle Hallock, LHP; Kody Hinze, 1B; Dallas Keuchel, LHP; Mike Kvasnicka, 3B; Chris Lee, LHP; Luis Ordosgoitti, RHP; Jordan Scott, OF; J.B. Shuck, OF; Vincent Velasquez, RHP; Josh Zeid, RHP.

This system has improved, thanks mostly to trades, but it is still thin. I love Singleton and Springer, but everyone below them has a caution flag of some kind. The toolsy guys tend to be extremely raw (Villar, Santana, DeShields) with a high risk of failure, while the polished guys lack upside, and there aren't many who combine both attributes.

There is a large group of Grade C prospects, and the slots 14-20 could be listed in any number of ways. You could make a case to include several of the "OTHER" category in those slots. Alaniz is projectable; Austin still has great tools; Hinze could sneak into some playing time before Singleton is ready; De Leon, Diaz, and Ordosgoitti all have live arms but need to show them at higher levels. Velasquez has a high upside if he recovers properly from Tommy John, and the very polished Kyle Hallock is a personal favorite.

Overall, the system has improved and there are some intriguing players here, but there are a lot of players in the "wait and see" and "need more data" categories.

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Still not buying Singleton as an elite guy

He really didn’t hit with much authority at Clearwater, and conveniently saw his power erupt in the wind tunnel known as Lancaster. ARL suggests he’ll have a comfortably good bat, and that’s great, but it’s hard to call that elite for a 1B prospect. There are serious reasons to be worried about how his power has progressed so far, and that comes under a lot of scrutiny when his position is considered. He’s a good prospect, but probably a B guy for me. I’d have Springer at #1 as a B+ and Cosart at #2 as a B, then Singleton third as a B. Granted, that’s less of a difference than I’ve made it out to be with this whole elaborate argument……

Also, based purely on his glove and age, I’d probably have Mier as a C+, but particularly with the poor showing in the haven of Lancaster, I get the C.

Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.

by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 21, 2011 3:13 PM EST reply actions  

singleton/springer

I spent about two hours trying to decide if I should put springer ahead of singleton. Ultimately I went with the birthdays but I really like springer

by John Sickels on Nov 21, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

One scout in the Phillies organization has compared Singleton's power potential to that of Ryan Howard's.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 21, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Is it the one who signed him?

Jonathan Singleton is my top prospect in this organization too & I like him quite a bit, but I think expecting anything close to ‘Ryan Howard power’ is pretty optimistic. That being said, I think he is very comparable offensively to many of the upper tier 1b types that have graduated recently & I think he might have the best power potential in his prime of any of those guys sans Paul Goldschmidt.

by Matt0330 on Nov 21, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't believe it was the one who signed him.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 21, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions  

One of my buddies is friends with someone in the Philly FO.

He’s a big Phillies fan. He said that his friend told him that one of the scouts in the organization said Singleton has Ryan Howard power potential.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 12:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I've heard plenty about Singleton

but how would you compare him to 1B prospects I’ve seen like Belt, Rizzo, and even Freeman? Where would you rank him among those 4?

by johnnycomelately9 on Nov 22, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

He's behind that group right now

But it wouldn’t be shocking if he ended up being the best of the bunch. He has a ways to go to get there though. I’d rather have the other 3 than take my chances with Singleton for sure.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 22, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd put him above Rizzo

but behind the other two. Based on stats and age, if you put Rizzo and Singleton side by side (both 19 when they reached A+ although Singleton spent the whole year there) they have been very similar. The difference is Rizzo has struggled with average and OBP past then with the exception of the inflated PCL numbers. Obviously I’m not taking his AAA numbers too seriously.

by Jake Rafferty on Nov 22, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

behind other two for sure, but ahead of Rizzo

by blue bulldog on Nov 22, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

If I'm making my prediction

I think that he will be the second best of that group, behind Freeman. Right now I would rather have Belt, but I think Singleton will turn out better.

by kyuss94 on Nov 23, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

This is definitely a bit more pessimistic than my list would be

The only really substantial differences would be:
1) Jarred Cosart, who at a minimum would be a strong B, top 60-75 overall prospect
2) Ariel Ovando, who I think is a fairly strong B- though I don’t mind projecting players without a ton of data
3) Jack Armstrong Jr, who I think is a safe B- prospect as well, with a very high ceiling though some injury issues which might force him to the pen. He’s at a minumum a strong C+, and listing Juan Abreu and Jake Buchanon ahead of him seems pretty off. He’s a 1st round talent.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 21, 2011 3:14 PM EST reply actions  

I would raise another 4-5 players grades

But that might be a case of slight optimism on my part. The three above just seem like total head-scratcher grades to me. I’d also lower Tropeano’s grade to a straight C, but maybe I am missing something.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 21, 2011 3:16 PM EST up reply actions  

armstrong

Armstrong is a real wild card.

I don’t have paritcularly optimistic reports on Ovando, but he’s young.

Cosart….I can see a B but I don’t think he pitched well enough last year for anything higher.

by John Sickels on Nov 21, 2011 3:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Knocking him down to B- seems like a far bigger drop than his performance warrants

Especially since the scouting reports are still very good. If I remember correctly, I read one which said he was touching 100mph in AA after the trade.

I’m kinda down on Cosart compared to Singleton and Springer myself, but not THAT down on him. He’s still a strong grade B/almost B+ for me.

I also agree with auclaire that I would give out a few more B- grades. I think it’s pretty arguable on each of the guys you gave C+ though, except maybe Santana, who I feel pretty clearly elevated his stock to the B- range.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 21, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

cosart

I will think more about it. I spent a lot of time thinking on Cosart’s grade, going back and forth between B and B-. I have concerns about his durability, and he really should have struck more guys out given his velocity. However, he does have a very high physical upside.

by John Sickels on Nov 21, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I was a one of the games in Corpus Christi where Cosart was hitting 100 mph. The radar gun may have been hot for all we know, but he hit triple digits several times, and was regularly hitting 97, 98.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 3:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

*at one of the games.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 3:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

fwiw

I’ve heard that Corpus Christi’s gun is generally extremely accurate.

by mrkupe on Nov 21, 2011 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

i dont know why but that comment makes me laugh. i mean seriously where does one go or whom does one talk to to know how accurate a AA- radar gun is?

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

i also really like the use of

“generally extremely” made me laugh at my desk.

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

guns

1. The accuracy of radar guns can vary from night to night
2. There are plenty of cases in which stadium guns are not very accurate at all
2. The scouts will obviously have accurate, calibrated guns. Comparing their results to the stadium gun’s results will tell you what you need to know.

by mrkupe on Nov 21, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

tickets to the gun show

I understand how to derive at an accurate reading and I know in house guns are often inaccurate, for example the SF Giants…their guns seem to be off because they have a pitcher named Barry Zito who they keep saying is only throwing 84mph. that cant be right can it?

do you have an inside source at CC Hooks? how can you get that info?

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

no, I do not have an inside source

That said, Corpus Christi actually has somebody manually handling the stadium gun and calling it in for the scoreboard, I believe (I’ve seen online references concerning this), and I’ve also seen scouting guns align with what the stadium gun shows there.

by mrkupe on Nov 21, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

thats awesome

i mean this seriously. if you are telling the truth about the radar guns (i have no reason to believe you are not) then you have awesome knowledge. i applaud you. I mean the people who know the accuracy of AA radar guns (especially out of market AA, I am assuming you do not live in the Corpus Cristi area, but even if you were a resident) is very limited. outstanding.

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 4:41 PM EST up reply actions  

I do not live in Corpus Christi, but not that far, either

I actually live in Austin, Texas. I’ve been to games in CC, though.

by mrkupe on Nov 22, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

i lived in san antonio for awhile

i made it to a few hooks games, i like their field and i love whataburger.

by James Westfall on Nov 22, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

it got a little better last year

Upgraded concessions, although I don’t eat at ballgames. For the most part I tend to agree . . .the design of the stadium is just about perfect for the area (not too many ways you can build a stadium in San Antonio and not leave most of your fans to boil), but the interior itself is terribly out-dated and not very acceptable by the standards of the level.

by mrkupe on Nov 23, 2011 3:17 PM EST up reply actions  

For me

and I think I said this around mid-season as well, I think a B- is justifiable for Cosart more because I think his breaking ball is far more inconsistent than is really acknowledged. People talk about how it flashes a lot, but his ability to command it and throw it as a plus pitch consistently, I don’t believe it is totally there yet. I can understand a B as well.

I also still think Folty as a B- is too high as he’s just a fastball guy right now, and while the fastball has good velo, the action it gets isn’t nearly as good as was hoped pre-draft.

by toonsterwu on Nov 22, 2011 5:00 AM EST up reply actions  

I try

not to get hung up on pitcher deliveries, but Cosart’s is pretty extreme. I think there are bound to be command issues unless its smoothed out, and that lowers his ceiling a bit for me.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

honestly

when i saw cosart, i really thought i saw a pen arm. A potentially dominant pen arm. Made me think of the Cubs Rafael Dolis (in terms of stuff, not build) in some respects (plus fastball that can hit 100, breaking balls that flash plus potential but aren’t consistent enough).

by toonsterwu on Nov 22, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I try not

to go there because I think we can be too quick to limit player ceilings, but I think you’re right that there’s a decent chance. A lot of moving parts in that delivery. The pitches are great though, as with Dolis.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Springer/Mahtook

John, In your pre draft list you had Mahtook above Springer (13 v. 19) but now it is reversed (B v. B+). Did one make a move oris thuis just about splitting hairs?

by ttnorm on Nov 21, 2011 3:25 PM EST reply actions  

close

I would put Springer slightly ahead at this point. Better overall tools, although I think Mahtook’s are underrated by a lot of people

by John Sickels on Nov 21, 2011 3:31 PM EST up reply actions  

including the Twins

AFter Panik and Gilmartin went just ahead of #30 i wanted Mahtook

Facepalm :-/

Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 21, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Progress

This is a much better system than the ones Astros fans had been subjected to the last four years. I like the aggressive grading on Villar, but I would have liked to have seen Armstrong in the top 20, given his upside. I have no quips with any of the other grades, though.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 3:35 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Cosart isn't at least a B?

Very surprising.

And how is Santana not a B-? His K/BB ratio is alarming, but he still hit .287. His tools and upside alone should net him a B-.

DeShields’s low batting average shouldn’t be much of a concern, in my opinion. Was transitioning to second base, so he didn’t get to focus that much on his hitting.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 21, 2011 4:01 PM EST reply actions  

Is that really a thing that happens?

Positional players just focus on defense, and don’t care about hitting well all year? I like DeShields, but I think you are making a strange excuse. I think he’s just really raw. Maybe I am just clueless and this is a common thing though.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 21, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

He said it himself in an interview that he was putting all of his focus on switching to second base.

He said that in the second half, he got more comfortable on defense, and started to put more emphasis on his base stealing in hitting, and it showed. He hit a decent .243, and he went 18 of 21 in stolen bases. Both were big improvements from his first half stats (.197 average, 12 of 20 in stolen bases).

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 21, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Well

He might have been making an excuse for himself. If he said before the season, that he wasn’t going to try all that hard on the offensive end and followed that by doing poorly, then said he was going to start caring about hitting, and followed that by doing really well, there might be something to it.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 21, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not that he didn't care about making progress on his hitting,

it’s that the Astros organization really wanted him to emphasize his defensive progression at second base, especially since they had no real prospect at second base at that time (Altuve exploded onto the scene later on in the season).

He was also the 3rd youngest player in the Sally league last year. He made significant progress on his hitting and his base stealing in the 2nd half of the season. He committed a ton of errors in the first half, and wasn’t quite as bad in the second. Why would he make an excuse? Seems to me that the stats agree with what he said.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 21, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He did poorly

Then said that the reason he did poorly was because he was concentrating on defense. I’m not saying he is outright lying, but it does strike me as an excuse. Not a big deal either way.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 21, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Jio Mier corroborated that he had been focusing hard on defense though

He said DeShields worked really hard and it was night and day between the beginning of the year and the second half of the season.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 21, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe that

I just don’t believe the two are quite as related as bonecrusher or deshields himself is saying.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 21, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions  

maybe

he was drunk and driving the wrong way on a one way street? that could have been it. im kidding, but seriously.

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

"Altuve exploded onto the scene later on in the season"

I’d say Altuve exploded from the get go. He hit .424 in April and .380 in May. And considering his very solid 2010 I doubt he was a complete non-entity for the Astros.

by blackoutyears on Nov 21, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Altuve

i think he is going to be a really good player. the guy can flat out hit. he dominated the low minors and came on strong in his MLB debut. for someone who is only 21 y.o. he is not getting much credit. also he is now dominating the VSL hitting .403 with 10 doubles.

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

"came on strong in his MLB debut"

I’d say his MLB debut actually gives pause a bit (e.g. .283 wOBA) as he did struggle a bit. I got to see him several times againts the Reds and he showed the contact ability you’d expect, but the swing was completely level and he needs to be a lot more discriminating about what he swings at. He has the makings of a solid every day 2B, and the pitch recognition and plan at the plate can be developed, but I have questions about the power based on what I saw of the swing. He’s going to have to adjust and develop more loft. I could see him having some (non-peak) Marcus Giles years, or I could see him being a shorter version of Jeff Keppinger.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions  

he has some power potential

he flashed a little power in the minors, but i think it would be a mistake for him to try and hit HR’s. he is built for doubles. at 21 with his contact ability it is plausible to think he could be a .300 hitter as his plate discipline becomes more advanced.

by James Westfall on Nov 22, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not

sure how to read the minor league power totals though. I saw some very good video of him in Lancaster and loved the swing, and then I saw him in the majors and it was much more level. Maybe he changed up to ensure contact — I saw Cozart do something similar in his short time with the Reds — but it’s something to monitor.

The power is important though, because he probably does have to hit .300 with a lot of doubles to live up to his boosters’ expectations. In terms of his approach he reminded me a bit of Starlin Castro, a guy who can hit anything and who has free-swung his way to .300 the last two years, but Castro features more loft in his swing and it’s worth noting that that doesn’t just matter for XBH. I saw Altuve top the ball and ground out a lot more than I expected. He’s not slow, but he’s not a consistent infield single threat either.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

No, DeShields was told from Bobby Heck that he needed to focus a lot on his defense at second base before the season.

That was before Altuve was considered a big prospect. Sorry for not clarifying.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I get that,

I just don’t think DeShields was told to work on his defense for any other reason than the org wanting him to…work on his defense. The presence of another prospect there wouldn’t have changed that. And Altuve wasn’t a star, but I guarantee he was on the radar after 2010 when he was very, very solid. Let’s just say that his 2011 was a lot less surprising to those who were on him last year.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

And FWIW

I think it makes complete sense that someone’s offense suffers when they’re learning a new and demanding defensive position, and DeShields ended up having some performance markers that are promising despite everything.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Altuve

i bet if he were 5’10 instead of 5’5 he would be a strong B+. hands down.

by James Westfall on Nov 22, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

yep, you got me

It’s a simple sliding scale. If he was 6’8", he’d be a Grade A prospect.

by mrkupe on Nov 22, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

It seemed to happen with Ackley.

I can buy it, in the sense that time spent taking ground balls and drilling in the field is time that can’t be spent taking extra batting practice. I think it’s a real phenomenon, but it’s pretty easy to overstate the effect.

by PissedMick on Nov 21, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Sleepers on the outside?

Anybody not on the list that could be a sleeper to watch for 2012?

by AppyAstros on Nov 21, 2011 4:21 PM EST reply actions  

Good call.

Incrediby raw, but has plus, plus speed potential, and might have some power as well.

He’ll be one to watch along with Ovando and Houser.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 21, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

A few

Jean Batista (toolsy, young international signing)
Wallace Gonzalez (Overslot guy from this draft)
Thomas Shirley (Has been haunted by injuries since being drafted, but has performed well when healthy)

by kyuss94 on Nov 21, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I really like Gonzalez.

I’ll be keeping an eye on him next season.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 5:05 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Chase Davidson

Monster year in the Appy, which is not a hitters’ league. Old for league, but it was his 1st year in pro ball as he was just drafted in June; it’s not his fault they started him at Rookie ball. 41st round pick, so no wonder they started him so low. Looks like the type that will have to prove himself at every level, but they’ll start him in full season ball next year so the ARL will be better. 1Bman, but stole 8 bases in 165 ABs so he’s probably not unathletic, and he does bat lefthanded.

by rhd on Nov 21, 2011 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

27% strikeout rate as a 21 year old in rookie ball

I’m not buying into Davidson at all.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 21, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

3B Jonathan Meyer

I think that repeating the Cally League (at least for the 1st half of 2012) and allowing him to compete against players who are closer to his age could do wonders for the offensive side of his game moving forward. And the glove and arm by all accounts seems to be already good to very good.

by reillocity on Nov 22, 2011 1:25 AM EST up reply actions  

I like Meyer, as well

In addition to the great defense, reports of his work ethic are stellar which is great to hear. The bat just needs to catch up with the glove, like with Villar and Mier.

by kyuss94 on Nov 22, 2011 1:45 AM EST up reply actions  

I suspect that of the 3B prospects on

these lists who will make and stick in the major leagues, the percentage of them that possess a glove that will allow them to stick at 3B for several years will be pretty low. Given that expectation, I’m thinking that a guy like Meyer is probably very underrated from a prospecting standpoint.

by reillocity on Nov 22, 2011 2:41 AM EST up reply actions  

LOOGY Wes Musick, RHP Jose Cisnero

Each made John’s “Others” list a year ago (COL, HOU). If one were making a list of the top LOOGY prospects in baseball by team, Musick would figure to be the Astros representative (how exciting, I know). Cisnero was battered by LHBs of the Cal League, in part thanks to exceptional wildness, but near-dominated righties with not exactly stellar control; mid to short relief at AA seems to be in his near future.

by reillocity on Nov 22, 2011 2:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I love Singleton,

but the more I think about it, the more I love Springer over him. It’s mainly because Springer is already relatively developed, but still has the great upside that Singleton has.

So I’d probably flip-flop the first two, give Cosart a B, and give Santana a B-. Otherwise, the grades are pretty accurate.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 21, 2011 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

I like Springer,

But he’s still a bit raw for a college prospect. The fact that Singleton already has a pretty good bat (to go along with an advanced approach at the plate) while being two gears younger than Springer shows that he should rank first on the list, IMO.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 5:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

*two years younger

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 5:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Cosart

Even as a huge supporter of Mike Foltynewicz, it just feels weird that he and Cosart have the same grade.

by kyuss94 on Nov 21, 2011 4:46 PM EST reply actions  

It is a bit strange, yes.

I can understand the argument for ranking each of them a B-, but its unusual considering that Cosart is a top prospect and Foltynewicz won’t crack any top 100 lists.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 5:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Domingo Santana

I have heard nothing but complaints from Phillies fans about how much they regret trading away Santana and how for a PTBNL his only glaring weakness is his K rate. I have high hopes for him.

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 4:46 PM EST reply actions  

henry sosa

he snuck over the innings limit but curious what if any opinion you have about sosa. used to be a big-deal prospect back in the day, stuff still seems pretty good in terms of velo &c, had good and bad moments in his rotation trial, but without a real changeup he still seems likely to wind up as a reliever. …so i guess i have an opinion about him, but, does that sound right

by wily mo on Nov 21, 2011 5:15 PM EST reply actions  

future reliever in my book.

hasn’t been much of a prospect the last few years,

Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN

by Nnamdi Asomugha on Nov 21, 2011 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Where

does this farm system land league-wide according to y’all? Without everything coming out, I’d say right around the middle of the pack, probably in the 15-20 range.

Thoughts, disagreements, insults?

Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend

by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 21, 2011 5:21 PM EST reply actions  

Probably

Outside the top 20. There isn’t a lot of depth in this organization, and with all the C/C+ grades going to the higher upside guys, that I thought might be B- types, it is really unlikely this is a top 20 organization, certainly not top half.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 21, 2011 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Wild guess...

I’d say this system comes in at #19 once the rankings come out.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Nov 21, 2011 5:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

yeah 22 or 23

Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 21, 2011 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

15-20 sounds right

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 21, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

3 and 4 for me. both B's

Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN

by Nnamdi Asomugha on Nov 21, 2011 6:17 PM EST up reply actions  

B+

for altuve. the guy has an outstanding bat and he has a good k/bb rate. plus he is only 21 and he is a starting 2B.

by James Westfall on Nov 21, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

To me

If one of them deserves a B+ it’s Martinez. I like his long-term prospects a lot more than Altuve’s, his power is real and I see a couple 30 HR seasons in his future.

by kyuss94 on Nov 21, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 12:04 AM EST up reply actions  

"he has a good k/bb rate"

In the minors maybe, but even there it was deteriorating and it didn’t translate to the majors where it was almost 6:1 (29:5) thanks to a 2.1% walk rate. The walk rate shouldn’t be surprising considering he was walking at an 8% rate at Lancaster and 4.6% at CC. There’s no doubt he’s a tough strikeout, and should continue to be, but he’s not very patient, and that could hurt him as we saw in his debut. I keep forgetting he did get 234 PAs in the majors, which is enough that the walk rate becomes at least a little noteworthy.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

He swings at everything

And he can hit everything, but he can’t drive everything. If he could wait for pitches to hit his average would skyrocket.

by kyuss94 on Nov 22, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

i agree

his plate discipline is lacking. but when was the last time a latino prospect was praised for his plate discipline?…these guys go up to the plate with the mindset to hit not to just get on base. i think with more time he will develop into a more patient hitter…he could learn a few things from david eckstein in that department.

by James Westfall on Nov 22, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

you don't walk off the island

Thanks for that opening . . .I hadn’t opened my “cliches.txt” file in the longest time!

by mrkupe on Nov 22, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

"If he could wait for pitches to hit his average would skyrocket."

That’s what I thought too. He ended up hitting a lot of pitcher’s pitches in my looks. Again, that’s something that should improve over time imo. And the point about driving the ball is crucial. I was surprised at how many high pitches he swung at.

by blackoutyears on Nov 22, 2011 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

To be fair...

I’m not sure that a 21-year-old’s approach in the majors is indicative of what he’ll do over the long term. Especially when that 21-year-old started the year in A+. I can’t say that Altuve will learn to manage the zone better in the bigs or learn to elevate the ball more, but I’m certainly optimistic that he can get quite a bit better than he is now at both.

by PissedMick on Nov 24, 2011 12:56 AM EST up reply actions  

hmm

Surprised at a lot of the C+ grades for young, high ceiling, guys.

by lawson3 on Nov 21, 2011 6:19 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Cosart/Folty

So I’m thinking about the point made above that Cosart and Folty are both B-, and I agree that Cosart is a cut above Folty. So either Folty goes down to a C+ or Cosart goes up to a B.

Right now I think the arguments for moving Cosart to a B are pretty strong. I will sleep on it.

by John Sickels on Nov 21, 2011 10:28 PM EST reply actions  

as I noted above

I think Folty to C+ has a strong case as well. He’s a fastball guy that gets good velo, but average life on the pitch, and the secondary pitches are extremely raw and inconsistent. Every organization has raw guys like that, and to get a B- seems to suggest that he stands out a bit right now from other raw guys.

I think there’s a case for Cosart to B as well, but I think the case for Folty to C+ is a lot stronger.

by toonsterwu on Nov 22, 2011 5:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll concur

It was a bit surprising that he was in the Sally last year. I’m typically not big on talking about physical projection for pitchers, but it is obvious that he needs some time to get bigger and stronger. Even the addition of, say, 15 pounds would still probably qualify him as “lanky”.

by mrkupe on Nov 22, 2011 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I noted my concerns about Folty mid-season

Didn’t see that impressive of a fastball (and IIRC, and it’s been awhile, when I saw him, he was more straight 4-seamer topping around 93) and didn’t see much in terms of quality on secondary pitches and I didn’t hear that much differently about Folty the rest of the year. I’m impressed with the decent enough work that he put in in SAL, and yes, I’d acknowledge that he has some physical projection, but for me (and again, how one grades certainly is a factor, as to each their own), I’m just not sold that the profile I saw and heard justifies a B-.

by toonsterwu on Nov 22, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

The movement on his FB is not average from what I've seen/heard

It’s definitely above average. He does have some inconsistency but I love the potential enough that I’d give him a (weak-ish) B-.

I don’t really understand giving Cosart that grade though; he will be a top 100 prospect on most lists because he’s one of the few guys in the minors who has true top of the rotation potential, even if there are some significant question marks there as well.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 22, 2011 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

even if he makes the top 100

i think he would be a back-end of the top 100 prospect

right now in the community poll, we are at pitching prospect #14. after that, looking at the discussion, there are at least 12-13 holdover guys from last year who look like easy higher ranks than Cosart (at least, i didn’t see Cosart’s name being mentioned)

then there are maybe another 5-6 guys in the draft who have yet to be ranked, but would probably end up higher than Cosart.

at this point, you’re already somewhere at prospects 30-35. then comes a batch of guys who are the debatables, and it’s unclear where Cosart is going to rank relative to them.

by blue bulldog on Nov 22, 2011 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Didn't see much when I saw Folty

then again, sss. Anyhow, feel like we discussed this mid-season so I don’t want to rehash a past discussion. I know he was in SAL this year (more as comment to mrkupe above) and in that respect, sure, there’s a level of … decency for what he did this year, and certainly there’s some physical projection to be had, but at this stage, just not sold the stuff is there to distinguish him as a B-. But also comes down to how people grade things.

As for Cosart, I can see B or B-. I know we had a similar discussion on him mid-season (Pence deal discussion) and my issues with his ratings still haven’t changed and I noted that above.

by toonsterwu on Nov 22, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Question for John, how close was Kvasnicka to making a C+ ?

I think the list is very fairly done, well done…..Maybe Cosart should get a “B”

But i too think Armstrong was a bit overatted coming out of college, and still is, interesting to see how he adapts to warm weather. “strong C” seems solid on him.

Ovando for me personally, would net a “C+” i suppose.

Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 21, 2011 10:40 PM EST reply actions  

cosart grade

astros possibly have a better system than initially thought …….yeah not sure what it is but something needs altered if folty and cosart have the same grading…….only thing i see that could bring down cosart to anywhere close to folty is possible risks of injury due to cosarts mechanics

by slapnutz on Nov 21, 2011 11:42 PM EST reply actions  

crystal ball time (for followers of Astros farm system)

Astros have 1st pick of 1st and 2nd rounds of 2012 draft, plus 1 supplemental 1st rounder due to Barmes’ departure. Let’s assume that those 3 picks, one player currently in another organization, and one other 2012 draft pick or 2011 outsider will make John’s Top 20 Astros Prospects for 2013 list . So which 15 guys currently in the Astros system remain eligible for and crack John’s Top 20 for 2013? Just list your 15 guys rapid fire in no particular order (posting these comments here under John’s post should make them easy to locate come this time next year, for the sake of future retrospective chuckles).

by reillocity on Nov 22, 2011 1:14 AM EST reply actions  

I'll give it a try

I predict Clemens and Abreu will be the only graduates, Oberholtzer and Cosart make brief appearances in September.

Singleton, Springer, Cosart, Villar, Santana, Ovando, Tropeano, Nash, Armstrong, DeShields, Velasquez, Oberholtzer, Foltynewicz, Houser.

I went back and forth between Velasquez, Lee and Mier for the 15th spot. I predict one of the 3 will cement themselves as a B- by year’s end, but it’s impossible to say which.

by kyuss94 on Nov 22, 2011 1:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Heh. I made this so confusing that you only listed 14 guys.

So you either lost someone along the way or will have to add either Lee or Mier. That or we could let Villar represent both Jonathan and Henry. I’m guessing that Abreu and Shuck are the mortal lock graduates, barring injury.

by reillocity on Nov 22, 2011 2:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Ah, whoops.

Let’s throw in Lee, just to make things exciting.

by kyuss94 on Nov 22, 2011 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

The compensation we get for Barmes is a 1st rounder?

Sweet. Thought it was a 2nd rounder.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions  

supplemental

round. it’s neither 1st or 2nd.

by JoelGuzman'sScout on Nov 22, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

My bad.

Just looked up the format.

Still pleased with what we got.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

no, he is a Type B free agent

So Houston will be getting a supplemental first rounder for him (assuming he retained Type B status through the new CBA). They also have the first picks in each of the first and second rounds, which they acquired through suckitude.

by mrkupe on Nov 22, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Suckitude is our specialty.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

my 15 guys

Singleton, Cosart, J. Villar, Springer, Nash, DeShields, Jonathan Meyer, C. Wallace, Santana, Teoscar Hernandez, Velasquez, Houser, Tropeano, Foltyniewicz, Diaz

The first 4 are virtual locks for John’s Top 20 for 2013 given their current grade (I’m anticipating graduations of Clemens and Oberholtzer, plus Shuck and Abreu). I then arbitrarily decided to go with 1 C (choosing Wallace over Roberto Pena), 3 IF (Meyer was last one in and beat out Mier, Hinze, Kvasnicka), 2 OF (Hernandez, who I assume will make it stateside for 2012, was the last OF in and chosen over Ovando, Bailey, Wates, Goebbert, and Scott), 4 SP (Foltyniewicz was the last SP in and beat out Armstrong, Bushue, Buchanan, and Keuchel), and 1 RP (Diaz eclipsed Zeid, De Leon, the possibly relieving Jose Cisnero, and Jason Stoffel). All in all, I expect the system to be much stronger this time next year, with the prospective additions bringing in much more talent than will be lost via graduations.

by reillocity on Nov 22, 2011 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

T. Hernandez

Another good sleeper name. The DSL numbers may not mean a lot, but they are certainly impressive.

by kyuss94 on Nov 23, 2011 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Hernandez may be the most complete all-around position player in the system

if the hit and power tools transfer across the Gulf. It will be particularly interesting to see how his skills stack up against the much more heavily compensated and year younger Ovando.

by reillocity on Nov 23, 2011 9:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Who do you think has the better chance of cracking the starting rotation first out of Clemens and Oberholtzer?

God has to bruise you before he use you. So you'll be sensitive to his touch.

by ArmyITSpec on Nov 22, 2011 9:41 AM EST reply actions  

Clemens

I think he’s just an all around better prospect, I think he’s a future #3.

by kyuss94 on Nov 22, 2011 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Definitey Clemens.

He dominated AA, and Oberholtzer did not. Clemens did struggle a bit at AAA, though.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Clemens in AAA

He made one start at the very end of the season. I think you can basically throw that one game out when looking at his 2011.

by kyuss94 on Nov 24, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks. I heard some people say they believe Brett was the better prospect. I really think they are both great, and i have seen them both pitch but i am no scout and did not know which one was more ML ready. I believe Obie will be more durable and consistent out of the two while clemens will have the better stuff

God has to bruise you before he use you. So you'll be sensitive to his touch.

by ArmyITSpec on Nov 22, 2011 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll break from popular opinion here

I think Oberholtzer actually has the higher floor. More consistent secondaries, better command. I think he’s more likely to pitch in a ML rotation in some form. But I think Clemens has higher potential and even if he winds up in the pen will probably spend more years in the majors (barring injury) than Oberholtzer.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 22, 2011 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

I'll 2nd this

I think Clemens could end up better, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if Oberholtzer got a shot in the rotation first. A lot depends on opportunity, though.

by toonsterwu on Nov 22, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Oberholtzer lacks the good fastball that Clemens has, but his secondary pitches are all pretty good. He just lacks the one great pitch, though his slider does have plus potential.

Even if Oberholtzer does have a high floor, we need him to reach his ceiling. We have too many questionable arms in our system.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

on further consideration

I’m gonna hold with Cosart at a B- and move Folty down a notch to C+.

by John Sickels on Nov 22, 2011 12:58 PM EST reply actions  

Yowzers

Without the trades from this season, the Astros would be looking at 1 B+, 1 B-, 6 C+, and the rest straight C’s. Not good.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 22, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

well...

well it’s not THAT bad. Several of those C guys have a chance to get a lot better.

by John Sickels on Nov 22, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Ovando, Bushue and especially Mier can still bounce back.

Ovando did have a mediocre season in the Appy league, hitting around .240, but he was just 17. He has A- potential, but has ways to go.

Before Bushue’s injury, he went 7-8 with a pretty good 4.11 ERA in his first season in the Sally league, when he was just 19. He was horrific last year when he came back from injury, but he’s still just 20. If he doesn’t produce this year, then I’d be concerned. For now, the C grade is accurate, but he’s got B+ potential.

I’m not sure what to make of Mier. Had a stellar rookie year, and hasn’t been good since. His K/BB ratio has been good throughout his career, as has his defense, but his batting average is terrible, and his power numbers have been non-existent. He did suffer an injury, but he’s got to have a big 2012 season at Lancaster.

There’s a few other C guys who can improve, but these three guys have the talent to improve significantly, especially Ovando.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm really not feeling Mier at this point

He was merely passable in Lexington despite repeating, and then flopped in Lancaster of all places. Scouting reports have not been very kind to him, so it’s not just a matter of age and numbers.

On the bright side, he still has the glove, so there’s still some hope. I think expectations of him being more than passable at best as an offensive player are out the window without dramatic improvement. I won’t be buying until both the numbers and the scouts are speaking positively about him.

by mrkupe on Nov 22, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

don't like Mier much either

but I feel like I’m being far too critical of the Astros system when that simply isn’t my intent (just not as high on certain individuals). I just don’t see all that much to be excited about in regards to Mier right now.

by toonsterwu on Nov 22, 2011 6:39 PM EST up reply actions  

You're probably right.

Mier probably isn’t more than a utility guy, at this point.

Bushue can still become a legitimate prospect, though.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 11:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually sort of like Bushue

but I haven’t followed him all that much. Has he started to fill out a bit and add a tick or so to his fastball? Last I recall, he was topping out low 90’s with average secondary pitches, but I know some people were expecting/hoping for more.

by toonsterwu on Nov 23, 2011 2:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, I'll just have to disagree with both then

Seems too pessimistic. But thanks for your work, John!

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 22, 2011 3:45 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Domingo Santana

could easily be a B-. An 18 year old with a .287/.362/.471 and some room to add more power (6’5 200) looks like a guy worthy of an aggressive grade to me. Obviously K’s are a concern, but that has been the case with about every prospect.

by James Westfall on Nov 22, 2011 1:37 PM EST reply actions  

His grade is one of the least controversial to me

I would rather have Ovando who got a straight C grade. I can understand a B- grade, but he’s really young and has an incredibly scary K rate, which is not like “every prospect” at all. His K rate might be the scariest of ALL real prospects in baseball. There might be some exception, some guy who K’s 40% of the time and still is considered good somehow, but high K’s at low levels are just a huge warning sign to me.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 22, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

about

ABOUT every prospect” has a varying degree of issue with K’s or K/BB. It is especially true about Latino players. obviously this is not a hardline factual statement but more of a summation or average. I’m just saying that if I were going to get aggressive with a ranking I would consider it with Santana. He is only 19 so he has time to figure out the K/BB thing.

On a side note Ariel Ovando and Domingo Santana have an almost identical K rate and are both equally terrible at taking the free passes. Additionally, Santana hit for more power at a younger age than Ovando in their professional debuts.

by James Westfall on Nov 22, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

K rate

Don’t concern yourself too much with K/BB rate for really young hitters. Walk rate doesn’t really mitigate a bad K rate, like it does when it comes to MLB hitters (or AA/AAA hitters to a much lesser degree). K rate needs to be looked at alone, all by itself. Ovando’s was 27.7% which certainly isn’t too good, and it was in less than 200 total plate appearances.

Santana’s has been 31.4% (2009 – 137 PA), 34.1% (2010 in A- ball – 214 PA), 37.9% (2010 in A ball – 198 PA), 31.0% (2011 in A ball – 387 PA). He then had a VERY small sample run of a decent K rate after the trade with a 19.2% rate (2011 in A ball – only 78 PA). That is pretty horrible.

by auclairkeithbc on Nov 22, 2011 2:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

I won’t pretend to know the difference between a ‘B minus’ or a ‘C plus’, but there’s a lot to like with Domingo Santana. I’m with you though as far as giving a little leeway to young, uber raw guys with big upside in other areas as far as K percentages go though. Santana played most of the year at 18 in full season ball & actually cut his Ks as the year went on. He’d be fifth here for me & I maintain this was a fantastic after the fact piece in the Hunter Pence trade.

by Matt0330 on Nov 22, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

he k’s way way too much, but his potential is outstanding, similar to Villar or Ovando. Santana probably doesn’t have grade A tools, but I think he has a projectable build and has power potential, plus he has about 3 years to work through his K% issue. The C+ grade isn’t bad, but he is a guy that I tend to be bullish on because of his upside.

by James Westfall on Nov 22, 2011 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

+1

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

If J.D. Martinez was still eligible, what sort of grade would he get? A solid B?

by fatmink on Nov 22, 2011 2:38 PM EST reply actions  

I guess you do have to keep in mind

That the Astros did just graduate three solid prospects in Lyles, Martinez, and Altuve. If they were still in the minors this system would look a hell of a lot better.

I still feel John is being too pessimistic here. I have each of the top three as grade B or better and top 100 prospects, and about 5 grade B- prospects after that, albeit on the weaker side of the grade.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 22, 2011 7:02 PM EST reply actions  

5 B- prospects after the top 3?

I think that’s a reach.

Mine are Santana, Clemens, and Villar.

Do you consider DDJ and Folty B- prospects? Both are still young and raw, but they only manage a strong C+ for me, mainly because of their age and upside.

I think the biggest robbery is Ovando not being a C+. His K rate was pathetic, but he was 17 last year in his first year of pro ball. His massive upside and broad toolbase alone should net him a C+ (not to mention his age).

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, I flip flop on a lot of them

I think there are a lot of prospects near the border between C+ and B- in this system.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Nov 23, 2011 3:43 AM EST up reply actions  

You can also add Paredes to that group of graduates.

Would of been a strong B- if he qualified.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Nov 22, 2011 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I'd say that most Astros fans with some basic knowledge of the farm system

probably would have projected that Lyles, Melancon, Aneury Rodriguez (he was John’s # 7 a year ago), Bogusevic, and J.D. Martinez (at least 50% would have in this case) would lose their rookie status in 2011 (all 5 made John’s Top 20 a year ago). Pretty much none of those fans would have said the same about Altuve, Paredes, or even a David Carpenter, for that matter. So besides there being a lot of forseen graduations from last year’s list there were two pretty stunning ones that were facilitated by the unthinkable-in-the-offseason trades of both Bourn and Pence.

As of today, I can see Abreu, Shuck, Clemens, and Oberholtzer losing their rookie status in 2012 with perhaps only marginal prospects likes Zeid, Keuchel, or Goebbert finishing in the vicinity of that milestone. So given all of the high draft picks rolling in next year and perhaps 2 or 3 C+ or better prospects being fetched in deals, the system should in theory look a lot deeper when the next list comes out in November 2012.

by reillocity on Nov 23, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions  

will there be rule 5 adjustments?

or do those guys not make the grade, so to speak?

by lawson3 on Jan 19, 2012 11:24 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

System looks better post-revision

I still think you could make a strong argument for Folty, Santana, Oberholtzer, and DeShields to be B- prospects instead of C+. Maybe not all of them, but it seems to me at least one, maybe two more of those guys belongs in the B- category.

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Jan 19, 2012 12:16 PM EST reply actions  

If only of the players you listed could have their grade changed to B-, I would cast my vote for Domingo Santana.

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Jan 19, 2012 12:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

*one of the players

The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.

by Stupendous Man on Jan 19, 2012 12:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I agree

Santana and Folty are my sixth and seventh I think, and I lean toward giving them both B-

http://www.crawfishboxes.com

by OremLK on Jan 19, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

His strikeout numbers are scary, but he still finished the year with a .287 average. Combine that with big upside and young age, and he should definitely be a B-.

"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.

by bone31crusher on Jan 21, 2012 6:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Jose Cisnero totally overlooked. Not even in others section.

by hrv2010 on Jan 21, 2012 1:40 PM EST reply actions  

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