Tampa Bay Rays Top 20 Prospects for 2012
Tampa Bay Rays Top 20 Prospects for 2012
The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Comments are welcome, but in the end all analysis and responsibility is mine of course. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!
QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:
Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.
Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.
Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don't make it at all.
A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters. Many Grade A pitching prospects fail to develop, often due to injuries. Some Grade C pitching prospects turn out much better than expected.
Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise coming from me, and some C+ prospects turn out very well indeed.
Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment in the book for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.
1) Matt Moore, LHP, Grade A: His profile is a collection of superlatives: excellent stuff, dramatically improved command over the last two years, impeccable statistics. He'll be a true ace and Cy Young contender barring an injury or catastrophic command slippage.
2) Hak-Ju Lee, SS, Grade B+: Excellent defense and took a step forward with the hitting this year, should provide batting average, speed, solid OBP. I'm not worried about his bad month in Double-A.
3) Alexander Torres, LHP, Grade B: Borderline B+. Outstanding dominance ratios, still has some command issues but has nothing left to prove in the minors.
4) Alex Colome, RHP, Grade B: Also has command issues but plus stuff, and I trust the Rays organization to develop him properly. Could be mid-rotation starter or a closer.
5) Taylor Guerrieri, RHP, Grade B: Has the ability to be a B+, A- or even an A if he lives up to full potential, but I want to see some pro data first and the alleged makeup issue from high school remains a puzzle.
6) Mikie Mahtook, OF, Grade B: Good career start in the Arizona Fall League but everyone hits there. Grade could go higher once he faces better pitching. Strong across-the-board tools and really blossomed as a hitter the last two seasons at LSU. Still can't believe he lasted to the end of the first round.
7) Brandon Guyer, OF, Grade B-: Borderline B. Also has across-the-board skills. Doesn't draw many walks, but has some power, will swipe bases, hits for average, and strong defense. Older prospect at age 26.
8) Parker Markel, RHP, Grade B-: High-velocity power sinker, hard slider and changeup stand out. Could rank much higher next year once he performs in full-season ball. Low strikeout rate mitigated by ground ball tendency. Could be mid-rotation starter or a closer.
9) Ryan Brett, 2B, Grade B-: Like Markel, he could rank higher next year once we see him in full-season ball. Pure hitter, should provide batting average and OBP, defense is still a work in progress.
10) Drew Vettleson, OF, Grade B-: Like Brett, he hit well in the Appy League, provides speed and at least gap power. He's a little older than Brett and strikes out a lot more, so I rank Brett slightly ahead.
11) Chris Archer, RHP, Grade B-: Not fond of the command slippage and he may end up in the bullpen, but his ceiling remains impressive. Needs a good dose of Triple-A.
12) Enny Romero, LHP, Grade B-: High-ceiling arm went backwards with his command in full-season ball. Seems a good bet to improve/rebound, and grade could be at least a notch higher if that happens.
13) Tyler Goeddel, 3B, Grade B-: No pro data yet, but will rank him here based on pre-draft scouting reports. Main question appears to be how much power he will develop.
14) Jake Hager, SS, Grade B-: I think he will sneak up on people with the bat either this year or next, and I believe he'll be able to remain at shortstop.
15) Tim Beckham, SS, Grade C+: In relative terms, his 2011 season was not statistically better than his '10 season, until he had the power surge in Triple-A. Even that came at the expense of poor plate discipline. Still young, still has tools, but I think some fans are getting overly excited at this point. I still see him as more of a utility player with some pop, not a first-division regular.
16) Oscar Hernandez, C, Grade C+: Put up monstrous numbers in the Venezuelan Summer League and did a good job throwing out runners. He wasn't a big bonus guy and scouting reports remain annoyingly vague. It will be fascinating to see how all this translates to North America. Ranking here is a guesstimate.
17) Granden Goetzman, OF, Grade C+: Didn't hit great in rookie ball, but in a less-deep draft he would have been a certain first-round pick. I like his tools, has power and speed, draws Jay Buhner and Jayson Werth comparisons.
18) Tyler Bortnick, 2B, Grade C+: Does everything well except hit homers and excite scouts with his tools. Very polished, excellent plate discipline, dangerous on the bases. You could easily rank him as high as 15 and ahead of Beckman.
19) Felipe Rivero, LHP, Grade C+: Live-armed lefty didn't dominate the Appy League statistically, but has plenty of arm strength and a mid-rotation ceiling.
20) Derek Dietrich, SS, Grade C+: Good power, but poor strike zone judgment in Low-A and pending move to third base keep him from a higher grade at this point. With some adjustments could get into strong B range.
21) Lenny Linsky, RHP, Grade C+: Power sinker/slider, excellent ground ball rates with strikeouts and solid command. 2011 draft product could move very quickly through system.
22) Nick Barnese, RHP, Grade C+: I've liked him better in the past and I still think he can be a good pitcher, but durability/injury concerns are still a big issue.
23) Josh Sale, OF, Grade C+: Tough ranking. He hit poorly in the Appy League due to problems with his swing, and he doesn't have enough other skills to be useful without power. The C+ cuts him some slack and reflects his reputation from high school, but he's got to hit better than this.
24) Jeff Ames, RHP, Grade C+: Posted 7.12 ERA in rookie ball, but K/IP and K/BB ratios were excellent. The ERA was the result of three poor games where he gave up 17 runs, six walks and 20 hits in seven total innings. Take those games out and he had a 2.73 ERA with 20 hits in 23 innings with a 31/1 K/BB ratio.
25) Kes Carter, OF, Grade C+: Western Kentucky outfielder has solid tools, good performance record, but gets hurt a lot.
OTHERS: Lucas Bailey, C; Matt Bush, RHP; Russ Canzler, OF; Ryan Carpenter, LHP (big sleeper); Johnny Eierman, SS; Marquis Fleming, RHP; Grayson Garvin, LHP; Todd Glaesman, OF; Kyeong Kang, OF; Braulio Lara, LHP; Kyle Lobstein, LHP; Jeff Malm, 1B; Brandon Martin, SS; Ty Morrison, OF; Justin O'Conner, C; C.J. Riefenhauser, LHP; Wilking Rodriguez, RHP; Cody Rogers, OF; Cameron Seitzer, 1B; Blake Snell, LHP; Matt Spann, LHP; Jacob Thompson, RHP; Stephen Vogt, C-1B.
Graduations have thinned this system out somewhat, but there is still a lot of talent, starting at the top with Matt Moore, who could turn into a cross between Clayton Kershaw and Justin Verlander.
Many of the B/B- guys and even several of the C+/C players have a chance to raise their grades significantly in 2012, especially the '11 draftees who have not played yet and younger guys at the rookie ball level.
I don't know what to make of Oscar Hernandez. There is a reason why I don't write much about VSL or DSL players. Performance at this levels is not particularly predictive, either good or bad performance, and scouting reports from those leagues are often vague and unreliable. Hernandez could be one of the best catching prospects in baseball a year from now. He could also fizzle out in Low-A. We just need to see.
Players listed 15 through 25 could be ranked in any number of ways. Josh Sale is an especially tough case.
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Geez, this is a "thinned out" Rays system.
Still inarguably top 5 in baseball in my book.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
I didn't expect 'B' grades all the way down to #14...
especially considering that there was only one ‘A’ assigned (as was expected).
Mahtook's bat
Could land him in TB in 2013 ala Longoria’s timetable. I’ll guess he starts in Port Charlotte.
Surprised you're so high on Markel, giving him a B while Jake Thompson (similar profile) got a B- last year and took a big step back in 2011
Vroom vroom party starter
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?
Markel is a B-
If everybody likes you, then either no one knows anything about you, or you're dead.
...Yeah. Misread it.
Complaint withdrawn
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
no it doesn't
I fail to see how Thompson’s stock dropping has anything to do with Markel.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
Do you know anyone with that sort of profile that did break out?
Not being accusatory here, I just can’t think of any… but I’m interested in seeing a guy who has reports on good stuff but iffy stats (particularly a K/9 under 7) in short-season ball and the strikeouts caught up to the stuff, so to speak.
Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
my biggest issue is a guy that looks like a RP in short-season ball as a top 10 prospect in this system. I can't possibly justify that.
He has 3 plus pitches
How does that look like an RP?
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Colome vs. Archer
This makes absolutely no sense to me.
Archer (AA/AAA/combined)- 19.3 K%, 13.1 BB%/ 21.8 K%, 10.9 BB%/ 19.5%, 12.9%
Colome (A+/AA/combined)- 21.5 K%, 10.3%/ 14.0 K% / 12.6 BB%/ 19.0%, 11.1%
So Colome walked slightly less guys, but he struck out just a bit less. One has better scouting reports, a prettier delivery, and has done it at a higher level. I guess the ERA difference makes all taht up.
Wow
Thought for sure you’d hammer the T-Bex ranking.
where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you
by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Nov 17, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
I'm certain that's coming
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 12:57 PM EST up reply actions
Torres also had a 13.5 BB% topping the other two.
Granted he K’d a bit more, but it seems like Archer’s getting killed because people look at BB/9 where he looks like he took a big step back, but if you look at the % of batters faced he’s basically the same as last year (11 BB%) which is because of his BABIP. Now if you want to argue he was grooving them that’s one thing, but his “step back” in command didn’t happen.
Archer
Could be backlash from his overhyping going into 2011. His BB% rates were not all that impressive, save for 2007 (Rookie Ball) and 2010 (A+ ball), the only times his BB/9 was below 4.0. If anything, he reverted back to normal, for him.
Didn't think so...
I’ve always thought Archer was overrated, and Colome underrated.
Otherwise, yes, I might be missing some underlying point…
Archer's 2011 has me legitimately worried
but I love the stuff and I trust the Rays developmentally
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
That's fair
I shouldn’t have jumped between the two, but my general feeling still stands re: Archer vs. Colome.
I've always considered Colome overrated.
No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.
by thedudeofdudes on Nov 17, 2011 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
This varied quite a bit from my list.
Why so low on Vettleson? First round pick in 2010 and he hit well with solid defense at a COF spot. Brett’s defense is a big issue.
I have a big issue with Colome at #4. His stuff really isn’t that good. He has a good fastball but not really anything else. Why rank him higher than a guy like Romero, who has much more potential while being as sound statistically. And Romero actually showed steady improvement throughout the year. The similarities between Romero and Moore at the same age are striking.
Torres at #3 is surprising. This is a guy who walked 5 per 9 innings in AAA this year. His stuff is superb, but the change of him being more than a 4/5 or a good releiver seems fairly slim.
Just why on Barnese? Meh stuff and especially meh stats. Why not rank a guy like Thompson or a first round pick ahead of him?
Brett's defense at 2B is an issue but his fallback is probably CF
Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Well "thick" was a complaint against Beckham playing SS, but that's gone now, largely.
He’s got speed, so some benefit of the doubt I guess.
by Ben Tumbling on Nov 17, 2011 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
disagree
Their offensive potentials look pretty similar to me and Brett is younger
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
By three months
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
why should they be?
They are both very promising hitters who were in the Appalachian League. Neither has played full-season ball yet, neither is considered a sure-fire star by people not affiliated or fans of the Rays, and given what the grades mean they are both B- guys for me
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
not necessarily.
It depends. Some years I have moe success picking out pitchers than hitters.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
the helium on Markel is interesting
is it all coming from the BA report?
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
Keith Law and Dave Gershmann liked him too when they saw him
Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not according to my screen
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
What happened?
It was higher on my screen, for real. Then I refreshed and mine went below yours. Stupid computer.
.
http://www.raysprospects.com/2011/11/prospect-to-z-day-16-parker-markel.html
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Fwiw, I saw an inning of Markel at the NYPL ASG.
So I can’t speak to the durability, but his stuff was pretty good. Couple really nasty, hard-biting SLs. Looked like he was overthrowing and kept leaving the FB up, but it had good life. Didn’t really get to see the CU, but I really liked what I saw. I have a video I’ll get around to editing eventually. Really busy with lists/top 100 right now.
Doesn't Brett's size
Make him harder to project?
I do agree with you about how Colome is over Romero
Romero has more upside in my opinion and very good stuff himself.
No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.
by thedudeofdudes on Nov 17, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
I'm a little surprised
That Wilking didn’t make the top 25. I could have seen him maybe barely missing the cut on a top 20 list, but I think of him as a pretty clear C+ type. His stuff is still there. Obviously there is an injury concern, but not enough to ship him to the “others” area.
The "others" can still be C+
Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
John,
Can you tell us how many of the Others are C+?
what this system has lost in elite players it has made up in outrageous depth.
a lot of which is lower level depth that hopefully turns in to some elite players.
in terms of upside
in terms of certainty (and EV), it’s still pitching-heavy
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
yup
How many teams can boast a grade A pitcher, 3 grade B pitchers, 3 grade B- pitchers, and at least 4 c+ pitchers? thats some pretty good depth.
StL
Same number of C+ or better pitchers, with eleven…but TB has just 1 B+ or better (vs. 3) and the Rays have only 4 grade straight B or better, while the Cardinals have 7.
Also, on the Vettleson rating: it’s the same grade Taveras got after his Appy season, despite OT being fully two years younger, and (relative to the league) posting an OPS 100 points better than Drew. A grade of B- for DV seems about right—-and Taveras was underrated, to be sure.
Do you think
Wilking is one of those 3? Or at least one of the maybes?
by auclairkeithbc on Nov 17, 2011 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Canzler
Had a great season but the K rate at AAA is a big concern.
do you have a list of Rule 5 eligible players?
I was just thinking the Rays are probably facing a roster crunch.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
I don't.
But it will be an issue, I believe.
Remember when everyone was wondering if Aneury Rodriguez or Torres was better? lol
85 1/3 major-league innings
is about 79 more than I expected from a dude without a fastball
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
RJ did a post on it last year:
http://www.theprocessreport.com/2011/03/29/2011-rule-5-eligible-rays/index.html
Matt Moore
Joseph Cruz
Nick Barnese
Alex Colome
Wilking Rodriguez
Braulio Lara
Neil Schenk
Shane Dyer
Marquis Fleming
Josh Satow
ooof
yeah, that argues for making a trade now
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
So: Alex Colome
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Cruz, Barnese, Wilking, Fleming and Lara are all potential selections
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
I'll give you Lara and Fleming
Because teams look for lefty power arms (Rays did this with Cesar Cabral) and Fleming is close enough to the bigs.
Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:31 PM EST up reply actions
I can't see Barnese being added really. Righty with out great stuff doesn't seem like a bullpen stash,
I don't think so?
And when I saw him at Durham in summer 2010, he looked like roster filler to me. FB sat 86, breaking stuff unimpressive. He went 6 innings without a mound visit (and had mediocre but not terrible results), so it didn’t strike me as an atypical outing or anything.
I just assumed Houston took Rodriguez because he was clearly ready to be a replacement-level MLB pitcher and they needed warm bodies. Hell, the Red Sox could have used him down the stretch this year.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
I saw him touch mid-90s a number of times. Not bad movement on the FB either. Didn’t get a good read on the breaking stuff.
Wasn’t he widely considered one of the best picks of the rule 5?
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
Quite a few more than that
Vogt in AAA
Reid and almost every Pos guy (not Lee) in AA – Figueroa and Kang? Oh no, not Henry Wrigley!
A handful in A , no huge worries.
Rays haven’t had a player they drafted picked in Rule 5 draft since 2006 – one of the 2 is a bit famous.
They should have space to promote any major concerns. Those ranked by John above: Barnese, Colome (surely added), Rodriguez (LA), Fleming, Kang, Lara, and Vogt.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 18, 2011 2:52 AM EST up reply actions
We did lose Aneury to the rule 5 draft
Still doesn’t look like a big deal though
by benderbrodriguez on Nov 18, 2011 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
But if you recall
Aneury wasn’t originally signed by TB – came in the trade of Hammel.
Also had Morlan picked in 2008, but he came in the Delmon Yong deal.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 20, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
I know.
It was a discipline issue though, and he is still a catcher with excellent tools. When he makes contact, it goes far.
O'conner.
Some scouts are. Some are not. He’s got MAJOR problems with the bat.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't aware of that.
Thanks. So is it more of a discipline or swing issue according to those you have heard from?
It's both
He had trouble laying off breaking balls but you don’t get a strikeout rate that high without swinging through fastballs as well
Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
this
THIS. the reports I have are 1) helpless against breaking balls. 2) overmatched by good heat. And of course the stats are awful.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
so what you're saying is
He’ll be fine as long as he’s facing changeup-only pitchers?
i am
a change up only pitcher…56 mph, but a sneaky 56mph
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
Guererri
I don’t think the makeup issue is a “puzzle” any longer. He and the Rays have publicly stated that the issue was him having a beer before a football game while he was in high school. He arrived at the football game, a police officer asked him if he had anything to drink, he confirmed the beer, and received a warning.
Guerreri
This is unrelated, but he did not have grades good enough to qualify to go to South Carolina. Was able to keep that quiet and still use it as leverage instead of having to go to JC. Just FYI.
Interesting
I had heard that. However, I’m not sure I’m willing to say that questions of being dumb as a teenager should be held against one’s future career prospects. Nothing that has come out so far about his high school career has changed my evaluation of him.
He's supposedly had other issues too
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Grayson Garvin?
I thought a little more of this guy, why the non-grade? What are the things you saw or didn’t see with him? Thanks!
by Evil Empire on Nov 17, 2011 1:04 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Garvin
Didn’t I read that he had some arm issue which led to his well below slot bonus?
It's pretty unclear
The word was it had to do with an injury a few years ago, but I’m not sure I’m buying that.
Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Seems like a move by the Rays to keep his price down.
If an injury was really an issue, they could have just taken another pick in the 2012 draft.
Bex at 15...
This seems like Leslie Anderson making last year’s list. I just don’t get it. What do we have? A SS that has improved his defense to at least passable that hits league average while being one of the youngest players in the league. His treatment is laughable.
+1
Tim Beckham is easily the most underrated prospect in baseball.
its tough
to be the most underrated player to ever be drafted 1.1
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
thats a load of CRAP
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 17, 2011 5:56 PM EST up reply actions
How is he easily the most underrated prospect in baseball
when he was drafted 1.1 and isn’t that good? Improving defense to passable and hitting league average makes someone average, not underrated. There’s not one thing I can find in his statistics that suggests he will be an above average player, much less a superstar. Outside of his age, exactly what does he have going for him? A career minors slash line of .265/.331/.382/.713 is pretty blah even for being young for every level. His power went up in AAA, but at the expense of his walks (2.7%) and strikeout (26.1%) rates. He just isn’t living up to the 1.1 hype and if he was an 8th round pick, he might not even have made the book.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions
yes, yes, it's "bad" because you disagree with it
Funny how the two seem to go hand-in-hand so often in so many cases . . .
i mean a subjective rating is bad when you disagree with it by nature.
so of course the two go hand in hand…
nope
You may disagree with it, but disagreeing with an opinion is not necessarily the same thing as thinking said opinion is ill-founded. Although obviously your statements imply that you would disagree with that, as well.
ok buddy. i didnt realize this was semanticsball.com
by rglass44 on Nov 17, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it's not asshat.com either, so knock it off already
by mrkupe on Nov 17, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
asshat.com
do not search that at work. lol.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
I believe Beckham will have the biggest difference in rankings from one person's list to another
I’m in the boat that he should still be ranked high, that I take his new approach at the plate as a positive and that the lack of offensive improvement had to do with a focus on defense. He has to be careful to not end up with the last Rays SS who focused too much on defense and forgot completely how to swing a bat (looking at you Reid). I still have Beckham in my top 5.
I could be misremembering but I think I read a couple times that he was working to go deeper into counts and draw more walks
which also resulted in more strikeouts.
not so much
He drew 62 walks with 465 ABs last year, versus 42 walks with 524 ABs this year.
if he was trying that, it certainly didn't work in AAA.
He had his lowest walk rate and highest strikeout rate of his career. In fact, even in AA this year, he had a lower walk rate than 2008 and 2010, with only about a 3% lower strikeout rate. His AAA approach seemed to be swing for the fences. His GB rate plummeted. Other than his age, what exactly is there that people see to think he should be ranked high, because I don’t see it?
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Here's the list of MLB SS that hit better than LA from 2009-2011 w/ a minimum of 500 PAs total:
Troy Tulowitzki
Hanley Ramirez
Jose Reyes
Derek Jeter
Asdrubal Cabrera
Yunel Escobar
Marco Scutaro
Starlin Castro
Jason Bartlett
You're assuming he's going to be league average
in the majors and that he’s going to stay at SS. Providing a list is nice, but unrealistic as it attempts to put him in the same company with Tulo, Hanley, Jeter and Reyes.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
What?
So Loney Casey Kotchman can’t be considered a 1B because it puts him in the same catergory as Pujols?
they can be considered a 1B, but
they still aren’t in the same company as Pujols. But you do help to make a good analogy… Beckham is to Tulo as Loney is to Pujols. Neither are worthy of being compared to the other.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
my point was...
that you can put anyone on a list, but it doesn’t mean they are worthy of comparison. There’s no way Beckham deserves to be in any discussion comparing Tulo, Hanley, Jeter and Reyes.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
how do you miss his obvious point that there havent been that many league average hitting SS
which means that beckham would be pretty valuable if he could do that
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Nov 17, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't, which is why I said:
“You’re assuming he’s going to be league average”. I’m not assuming he will ever be league average. In fact, I’m pretty damn sure he never will be, but that’s just my opinion.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
I would be pretty valuable too if I could piss $100 bills
but I can’t. Probably would hurt anyway.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
But Jason Barlett does?
You are missing the entire point. He isn’t saying Beckham is going to be Tulo or Hanley. He is merely pointing out the strengths of being an above average hitter at the SS spot.
didnt miss it at all.
Even to say he’s going to be Jason Bartlett is a complete stretch right now.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
stretches
are what a site like this are for — you project and speculate, based on your preferred methods, and then your reputation goes up and down based upon those speculations — that’s what’s fun about it
No argument there.
But to say I’ve missed the point is missing the point. :)
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
And to say Harper is going to be anything at the MLB level is a stretch, right?
I have no idea what you are trying to argue. If he doesn’t advance at all, then it is a complete stretch. But why would we assume he would stop advancing, since he has gotten better over the past several years?
why would we assume who would stop advancing? Your comment is vague as to who you are talking about.
I was arguing that no matter what nice neat list is provided, that Beckham is nowhere near a league average hitter in the major leagues right now or anytime in the next couple years. As for Harper, if you’re trying to say that I’m saying it’s a stretch that Harper is going to be anything at the MLB level, then you didnt understand what I said about Beckham. There’s plenty of evidence in the statistics that Harper should be damn good at the major league level, but busts occur.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
There is zero evidence that Beckham is not near a league average hitter at the MLB level.
I have no idea where you got that idea from.
Just as I could say
There’s zero evidence that he is near a league average hitter at the MLB level and I have no idea where you get the idea that he is.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
And I have no idea why you think Harper will ever be a league average hitter at the MLB level.
This will keep going around. I don’t think it is reasonable to assume he will stop progressing. And if doesn’t stop progressing, he should be MLB league average soon.
hmmm Harper .894 OPS at age 18 vs Beckham's .713 OPS at age 21...
Harper is already BETTER than a league average hitter in the minors at a younger age. Even if he stops progressing, he’s already shown more than Beckham has.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
BUT, he hasn't shown he can be an average hitter at the MLB level.
You decided to be fairly unreasonable and it is coming back at you.
You could have said something like “I don’t think he will ever be an average hitter at the MLB level” and you would have been right.
Instead, you chose to make judgements where no one has knowledge on.
I didn;'t decide to be unreasonable, you decided to be literal.
And to clarify, I said “Beckham is nowhere near a league average hitter in the major leagues right now or anytime in the next couple years.” Of course that is my opinion. Of all sites, I would think that people would realize that everything is an opinion on here.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 18, 2011 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
That seems a little more than an opinion to me.
But if you say it is merely your opinion, then fine. However, because you brought in something that can’t really be debated, you killed the conversation.
at some point
players stop advancing. permanently and they begin to regress. Im not saying that beckham is there yet (i dont think he is) but the question should be not that he will advance beyond his current skills but HO MUCH he will advance and that is where we get the difference of opinion some people think he will not advance enough to be league average and others think he will advance to the point of being and everyday SS on a MLB team.
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
totally
he may very well be one of those guys who really hits his stride at age 27 (maybe a late bloomer like mike morse or jayson werth) but the odds are against it. and i think that if this were the case, john is justified to have him at a C+
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
his league is AAA
.260 in AAA is probably .240 in the MLB.
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Last season, he would probably hit .240 or lower, you are correct
But he’s been improving every year, so it’s not improbable that he is a league average offensive player in 2013/14.
by Ben Tumbling on Nov 18, 2011 12:10 PM EST up reply actions
he is a career .265 hitter
and at each level he has been young and has managed to play ss competently…i see no reason why after a few seasons he could not be a .260-.280 hitter in the MLB…probably a tier 3 ss. with a couple seasons of above average play, but nothing memorable. For me he is a C+ with the chance to be a B-
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
bex is tough
he is gonna be 22 and is in AAA. i figure this year will be the year he either puts it together or bites the dust as a prospect, but he does have time on his side and is young for his level.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
even still
i have a feeling 2012 is going to be the make or break year for him as a prospect. certainly over the course of 3 seasons he will be able to figure out AAA, but if he goes on to say hit .260 with limited power in 2012, it is going to be tough to justify a top 20 ranking with this outstanding system.
He will one day reach the majors, but will he ever be an above average player on that level? i have some doubts. I hope he does, but its 50/50 he is a bust.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
To depart from criticisms:
I love the aggressiveness on the Guyer rating. I think a lot of folks take him for granted ignoring the legit power he has (coupled with good athleticism). I think he’s an everyday player.
8% walk rate in AAA--->less than 8% walk rate in the majors, and I'm assuming the K rate goes above 18% too in the bigs
The only COF who was above average (>2 WAR) with those plate discipline numbers or worse last year was Jeff Francoeur. Also Guyer was 25 which is like old to be in AAA
by benderbrodriguez on Nov 17, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
COF from 2009-2011 w/ >18% K-rate, <8% BB-rate, and 2+ WAR/150:
Josh Hamilton
Carlos Gonzalez
Michael Morse
John Mayberry
Chris Heisey
Ryan Raburn
Michael Morse is a 1B isn't he? Mayberry, Cargo play lots of CF too, at least 1/3rd of the time
Either way the point is very few corner outfielders can succeed with his plate discipline levels at AAA, forget the major leagues. It’s a cause for concern.
by benderbrodriguez on Nov 17, 2011 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Morse played some LF. The other guys played some CF (which Guyer may well do in the bigs, or could on another team).
Either way, there are very few names on that list
Given that these are Guyer’s AAA plate discipline numbers, I think it’s fair to see them as a bit of a red flag
by benderbrodriguez on Nov 17, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
sorry guys
Sorry guys. I just don’t by Beckham as a star and yes I have seen him in person.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:17 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
No. But I'm more confident that he will be a valuable player than I am in beckham.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
SS, defensively, holds much more value than a COF spot.
I don’t mind ranking Guyer higher. I just don’t see the huge gap when one is 5 (?) years older.
beckham
I am not convinced he has the range for shortstop, and i doubt he hits enough for 3B.
It is becoming chic and fashionable to say that Beckham is underrated!
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
peralta
Interesting comp, but Peralta was a better hitter at the same stage.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
ive been meaning to write something up about it for a few months.
the numbers in the minors through age 21 are ridiculously similar:
JHP through age 21 season: 0.256 0.333 0.371 0.705
9.9% 22.2% bb/k
0.129 iso
bex: 0.265 0.331 0.382
8.2% 21.4% 0.117
But that doesn't mean Beckham will break out at age-22 like Peralta
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
well of course not. it does speak to his abilities through age 21. also, this will be the first year bex gets to start at a league he has experience in.
that SHOULD bode well for a breakout. (crosses fingers and toes)
optimism on Beckham
he demonstrated a wide variety of skills last year, including power at AAA. Obviously, he didn’t put those all together at any particular level — but possibly that was for developmental reasons (e.g., coaching staff says ‘work on X, Tim’). If he can put it all together, you might see a breakout.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
thats my hope with archer and bex.
supposedly archer was working hard on his change and throwing his slider early in counts (which got him in trouble when guys wouldnt swing at it).
What skills did he demonstrate?
The power came at the expense of walks and contact. He showed he could strike out more, walk less and be league average. Beckham inspires more faith than Jesus.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 8:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This perpetuates the fallacy that Peralta should still be playing SS.
Also, UZR – fatally flawed and unreliable.
+1 on John
I see Beckham more of utility player at best.
A lot of the Rays fan are high on Beckham and I saw him play a few time and i was quite underwhelmed
Seems like a Ronny Cedeno type to me. Which is not bad i guess
it is bad
nobody wants to be this guy…
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4012/4677218140_d2b467ce2e.jpg
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Cedeno is a tool
i dread the thought of him playing everyday. the mustache is the least of his worries
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Way more bat than Cedeno and not nearly the glove of Cedeno.
Bad comp. I have seen him 10-12 times, most recently Spring of 2011, and he looks confused on the field and uninterested. That was almost 10 months ago, though.
by jcmitchell on Nov 17, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cedeno has a higher minor league OPS than Beckham.
so equal bat and not nearly the glove of Cedeno. Being confused and uninterested doesn’t help the argument either, really. It’s ugly for Beckham.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
lol... by .002. that's including a ton of time in the PCL (much of it after he had been in the Bigs and all after he was Bex age).
actually .011 (.724 to .713) but even so,
that is still UGLY for Beckham. Cedeno had 245 at bats in the PCL at age 22 and then 287 at 24 and another 15 at bats at age 28. So he had less than 600 at bats total in the PCL. The 2 aren’t as different hitting wise as you want to believe.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 17, 2011 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn't trying to help the argument.
rglass and I usually see eye-to-eye on a lot of Rays stuff but we agree to disagree on Bex.
When we did top 10s at drays bay
My list looked a lot more like John’s than most of the folks there, but I still think he’s being underrated a hair. It’s an upside projection, but if he has the motivation to work (and nobody I’ve seen has said he hasn’t), his upside is probably somewhere another high pick who underwhelmed in the minors and early on in the majors – Rickie Weeks. Very similar tools, IMO. could still flame out, and while I certainly wouldn’t rate him #5 like the draysbay community prospect list did, I’d also be hard pressed to rank him behind Jake Hager.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I'm surprised how low Romero is given he's probably the pitcher with the highest ceiling of the bunch.
Highest ceiling?
I think Guerreri has the highest ceiling amongst pitchers not named Moore.
I don't disagree there, but we don't have much other than pre-draft scouting reports about a guy that didn't strike out that many HS players.
And don't get me wrong...
I love Romero’s potential…
guerrieri
i wouldn’t argue with that but I want to see him pitch professionally and I am usually cautious about HS arms who hven’t pitched yet.
I gave Archie Bradley an A- but G a B….because I like Bradley better.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:25 PM EST up reply actions
Totally agree.
I think Guerreri is going to be lethal.
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
+1
i was surprised to see him at 12, but i figure as one of the many B-’s he could be up around #7 given personal preference.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
perhaps, but
As raw as he still is, he’s also a guy who has had the benefit of pitching during three separate MiLB seasons (4 if you count DSL, which I do not), and has 220+ pro innings under his belt. Raw and experienced is not an auspicious combination.
MiLB level
do you think he will start off back at Bowling Green or do you think they would move him to Charlotte or Montgomery?
I ask because he will be 22 and it would be nice to see him reach AA soon, although the Rays are meticulous with their development.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
over
we had over 300 on the preliminary rays thread…i think.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
dang..i dont think we will make it over 500...
although if we include the banter back and forth with Sandy Kazmir we were close. The next question is 150.5 over/under for the houston astros? haha
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
page views
Obviously the thing for me to do is post a prospect list that contains a couple of controversial rankings. The complaints generate tons of page views!
You certainly are earning your pay today, John...
I think the list is well done (as they all are) even if we all have our own biases/arguments to put forth.
by dbreer23 on Nov 17, 2011 1:30 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Oh yeah, I love how interactive John is in the comments sections of his lists
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
agreed. we all have quibbles, but that's half the fun in this. though the bex ranking is atrocious and shows clear bias.
bias?
Bias? Hahahahahah. Yeah right.
I tend to be pro-Rays.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
one other thing
One other thing….grades are SHORTHAND. The full comment in the book is necessary to explain my view of a player.
BUY THE BOOK
long time reader first time buyer…I will be ordering my first book from you this year…
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
+1 same here
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 20, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
Jake McGee?
Is Jake McGee no longer considered to be a prospect? Age 25 and has only 33 MLB innings.
Too many days on the roster I believe
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
mcgee
I don’t think he qualifies any more. and given the huge number of guys in the system i moved on.
I’d give him a strong B at this point.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
I like Dietrich as a future Zobrist.
I think he’ll have that kind of defensive flexibility but more power with a worse approach. Maybe he’s a Guyer clone?
that's why i linked his MiLB numbers
Dietrich needs to improve, but so did Kent. Obviously it’s a best-case ceiling.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 1:55 PM EST up reply actions
well, at the same time, Jeff Kent couldn't compare to Marcus Giles
Giles hit 37 HR in one season in the minors, and as we all know, he went on to hit 534 home runs during his major league career.
marcus giles
he fell off the face of the earth real quick…that acid reflux is a silent killer (sorry john i know you might still be having night terrors over that roast beef sandwich. too soon on my part.)
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, just throw out a random hall of fame candidate
Maybe max max upside. Actually, max upside I’d go more like Ian Kinsler. First standard deviation, I’d go more like Todd Zeile with more a bit more defensive flexibility. Not bad players, but I don’t know that he’s a future star. Always hard to tell at this level though, especially if there aren’t standout tools.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I like Dietrich as well
I think a C+ is reasonable especially with the caveat that he could fairly conceivably become a B by next season.
by auclairkeithbc on Nov 17, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
So my question would be, and this isn't technically a minors question...
but what do the Rays do with all of these starters? Obviously Price is in the rotation, and then you have Hellickson, Shields, Niemann, Moore, Wade Davis, Alex Cobb, Torres and more on the way. Friedman has been pretty vocal about not wanting to trade anyone, but I suppose that could just be him posturing for a better offer. I know there is no such thing as "having too much starting pitching, but at some point they either need to start making some of these guys into relievers or trading them for some bats.
Oh and as a White Sox fan, I’m insanely jealous.
they said last year they werent trading anyone. they also said garza would be on the 2011 staff. theyll move at least one sp.
Probably right.
The question is who? I know everyone likes Shields, but 1) I have a hard time seeing his value ever being this high again and 2) he’s becoming expensive for the Rays (though 7 mil followed by options of 9 and 12 would be considered a steal by a lot of teams). If I were TB I would probably sell high on him now and go with a rotation of Price, Hellickson, Moore, Niemann and Davis with Torres and Cobb in the pen with the potential of grabbing some sport starts or injury fill-ins..
I think it all comes down to return. If both Shields and Price are on the team next year, I might be less surprised to see Price moved than Shieelds.
I'm not sure I follow your logic there.
Can you explain a bit?
Price is more of a name-brand guy and could get a better return next off-season
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Nov 17, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
I follow that.
But what would become of Shields? I have a hard time seeing the Rays re-signing him again after this contract is up. Even the last team option on there might be tough to swallow for them. Seems like they are going to HAVE to trade him eventually.
Also true.
I guess my point would be that I think Price will still be quite valuable as a trade piece into his arb years. I could see Shields coming back to earth a bit next year and not fetching as much.
Ideally, IMO, they're able to keep both with Moore for at least two seasons.
I would be shocked if we get all 3 for 3 seasons, but my oh my what a staff that could be. Gotta love MLB’s lovely system!
short run vs. long run
It really depends on what the Rays are trying to achieve in the short run because i could see them trading a wade davis or jeff neimann and go with price, shields, hellickson, moore, and cobb/torres and try and win it all, or they could trade Price/Shields and bring in a boat load of prospects and try and build around moore, davis, hellickson, etc….the window to win a championship in Tampa Bay is now in my opinion. Its going to be tough to have a better starting 5 than the Rays. I hope they go for it
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Whoever gets them the best value for what they're giving up
Nobody ever mentions him, but my money’s on David Price. It’s not that he’s overrated per se, but it seems like people around the league think he’s a little better than he actually is, and he’s the most likely to get the most expensive.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
They trade Shields
For 2 B+ hitters, a B- pitcher, a toolsy C+ hitter or live-armed pitcher in the lower minors and a hard throwing middle reliever who has never figured it out.
by ReyL on Nov 17, 2011 4:12 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
probably about what the Rays got for Garza
I wouldn’t be surprised if they could do better (e.g., a Bedard-like return).
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 11:51 PM EST up reply actions
Sort of related
I am guessing that Moore, Cobb, and Torres will have an innings limit in 2012 so keeping all 7 might play. Joe Maddon did go with a 6 man rotation for a bit this summer IIRC.
but that worked terribly
I can see Cobb rehabbing in Durham to start the season and Torres in the bullpen, though — so the org. definitely has spots for 7 starters.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 17, 2011 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
I imagine that we will see this for 2012
Shields, Price, Helly, Davis/Niemann (one gets moved), and than Torres in the rotation and Cobb/Moore in AAA to start the year.
Pretty amazing...
…How the Rays just keep churning out top flight pitching year after year. Note to the other 29 teams: do what the Rays are doing.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 17, 2011 3:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I think that's easier said than done...
or everyone else WOULD be doing it.
Obviously so.
But you’d think that teams would at least pay extra attention to how their scouting department seems to find all of these gems late in the draft.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 17, 2011 4:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
How about trusting everyone elses scouting reports on the top prospects
And spending all your time scouting in the lower levels?
"When you find your way. Then you see it disappear."
I don't know how you're defining "late in the draft"
but I don’t see the Rays as being particularly good in this regard.
They have 23 guys drafted in the 10th round or later going back to 2006 (new Regime) through 2009 still playing in minors or majors, 1 on a 40 man roster (Jennings, 10th in ’06).
For comparison, the Yankees have 32, 3 on a 40 man. (Mc Cutcheon traded to Pitt, David Robertson, and Laird).
I doubt NY is a leader in this area, but I had the info handy.
By the way, for top 9 rounds in same 4 years, Rays have 23 players, with 5 on the 40. Some pretty good ones though.
NY has 31 playing with 8 on 40’s. 3 of the latter have been traded – no Rays traded.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 18, 2011 3:20 AM EST up reply actions
I doubt it lasts too much longer
There are a lot of guys who could be servicable, but I’m not sure there are even any guys who would be ready for 2013 around the Alex Cobb level.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I love the exclusion of Canzler in the top 25
I think people are getting way too excited over him, he is Justin Ruggiano at 1B/DH. I’d also love to hear your thoughts on Bush. I am a lot higher on him than others but I see him with the floor of a middle reliever and the upside of a legit closer. I have him around 20 and would think to even go higher. I just feel a lot of these pitchers the Rays have basically while they may have a higher ceiling will most likely at best reach what Bush could be in 2012.
I don't think anybody is "excited" about him
Still a chance to be a useful player though, and very close.
I think Bush
is a classic C+. Still plenty of questions but the armstrength and the ability to miss bats is there.
I think Garvin should be 25th instead of Carter.
Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Nov 17, 2011 4:35 PM EST reply actions
Surprised at Deitrich rating
Thought he would be a B-, and a bit higher on the list myself.
Well Dietrich hit for power
but the average/on base percentage were that good and he struck out a bunch. Also some considered him a little overaged for A ball, where he stayed the whole year.
No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.
by thedudeofdudes on Nov 17, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
*were not good
No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.
by thedudeofdudes on Nov 17, 2011 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
Am a Derek Dietrich fan & I like him more than Tim Beckham to namecheck one system mate. I would have gone quite a bit higher here probably, although I am unclear where I’d slot some of the 2011 draftees right now (most would be behind Dietrich safely though I’d think).
Andrelton Simmons vs. Hak Ju Lee
From what I’ve read, the Braves’ Simmons and Lee seem to be very comparable prospects: ML-ready gloves, good speed, possibility for good average/OBP. Do they project as similar players and if not, who has the higher upside?
Beckham vs. Simmons
Beckham is younger and played in AA/AAA this year vs. Simmons who played in A+ this year. Beckham’s OPS was a combined .736. Simmons posted a .759. Simmons gets better defensive reviews, but my question is how much better is his defense? Most everyone thinks Beckham will be a mediocre defender at SS these days (so -5?), and Simmons is considered to be a good defender (so 5?). So Bex has ARL and similar production at the plate while Simmons has a defensive advantage (their base-running numbers are pretty much equal). Yet for some reason Simmons was a B and Bex is a C+. It isn’t logical.
i think the B+ could change for Simmons in the book
realistically i think Simmons is a B and Beckham is a B-/C+
at age 20 in A+ Beckham hit .256/.346/.359
at age 21 in A+ Simmons hit .311/.351/.408
there is a pretty big difference and 1 calender year is not it.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 8:05 PM EST up reply actions
I was pretty shocked
By the B+ for Simmons.
by auclairkeithbc on Nov 17, 2011 8:45 PM EST up reply actions
I think it reflects John's view that Beckham is not a major-league shortstop
and, conversely, how valuable true SS prospects are (like Simmons).
By contrast, this highlight’s rglass’s argument that if Beckham is a legit MLB SS, he’s being severely underrated on most prospect lists.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 18, 2011 12:06 AM EST up reply actions
I think the perceived difference is a bit more than that
Beckham is considered fringy by some and decent enough by others. Simmons, on the other hand, gets raves from just about everybody. Being a passable defender at short is great in of itself. If you’re a wizard there, that’s a truly rare player and somebody worthy of a high ranking.
The operating word by many of the "Beckhamites"
not really including High Priest Glass ( I mean that most kindly) is “if Beckham is a legit MLB SS” with the operating word being IF.
There are many “if” prospects in baseball – it seems that’s what C+’s are for, the way John defines them, but a low B is also possible if how John sees him (possible role player for a number of years).
And he’s the number 1 C+ here – John’s grades on “cusp” guys are often variable, and he repeatedly points out the difference within a grade, or between neighboring levels, isn’t so great.
On Beckham we’ll all likely know in a year or 2. IF he shows improvement, he’ll move up because he’s close.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 18, 2011 3:32 AM EST up reply actions
Simmons
I would give 5 Beckham for one Simmons.
Simmons has shown more tools in pro.
He is defense wiz while Beckham has fringe to average defense.
T-Bex has shown absolutely nothing. If that being a year or two younger
matter that much, then Teheran and Perez would be better than Moore,
of course, not even the biggest homer do that comparison.
10 runs of defense...
…is a lot less than what BP’s defensive metrics say the difference is between Bex and A. Simmons. Prospectus puts the shortfall at more like 30-35 runs. For what it’s worth.
Different skills
Simmons had more XBH and more SBs than Beckham has had in any level.
Also
He struck out 3 times as much and had an OBP 40 points lower than Simmons.
Baseball America begs to differ
John isn’t the only one to be high on Simmons. BA ranked him number 4 as well while Beckham probably won’t be ranked.
thats a good question
one thing that really stands out to me is that hak-ju lee has almost as many triples as doubles (17 dubs 15 trips) and Simmons had 30+ doubles…(how many will turn into HR’s?) that could be a good indicator of how their hit tool is different.
by James Westfall on Nov 17, 2011 8:22 PM EST up reply actions
Alex Cobb
He’s in that not a prospect/not established netherworld. He got 10 too many outs in TB to be given a grade…had he gotten lit up instead of getting those 10 outs, what would his grade be?
Thanks!
I think John gave Wade Davis an A- headed into 2010
with pretty much the same profile, so I’d say Cobb would be an A-.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 18, 2011 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
Not an A-
“Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. "
That is why I went B+.
But then again, there have been plenty of A- players who don’t really profile as stars.
Cough......Jed Lowrie........Cough
Big Sexy
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by King Billy Royal on Nov 18, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
Cobb has NEVER had anything better than fringe above average stuff
People are getting a little too excited about him methinks.
Occasionally you get a star or two with his profile, but it’s exceedingly rare, and when it happens, it’s because either they develop a true out pitch (e.g., Mark Buehrle) or have a crazy fluke season and then ‘flame out’ later (e.g. Dontrelle Willis).
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"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Here's the list of position players to make an appearance in AAA this year younger than Beckham:
(null set)
Here's the list of position players that qualify for the leaderboard (i.e. >139 PAs) that are younger than Beckham:
Jae-Hoon Ha
Junior Lake
Mariekson Gregorius
Huh?
I thought you just said nobody younger than him even appeared. Now 3 players had 139 Plate appearences? All without appearing even once!
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by OldProspects on Nov 18, 2011 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
One response to this comment, and it's somebody trying to be a smartass that can't read.
How many other 21 YOs that make it to AA and hold thir own get dismissed as “possible utility players” or “never will be a star?” Beckham gets judged much harsher because of his pedigree while ignoring what got him that pedigree. I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts Beckham outproduces the median WAR of the number 1 overall pick in his career (from 1965-2007 that number is 10.5).
dont forget
beckham enjoyed an unsustainable .334 BABIP in AA and an iso of .208 in AAA so his numbers are a bit misleading and he K’s more than twice as often as he walks. he has some major flaws. I hope he can correct those and he does have time on his side, but the numbers are the numbers.
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Even outproducing the median WAR of the Number 1 picks from 1965-2007
won’t make him much more than a utility player and certainly not a star if he accomplishes that 10.5 WAR over 10 years. There’s still the possibility he is a possible utility player, never a star and outproduces the median WAR of the overall Number 1 pick. How many other 21 Year olds make it to AA and hold their own and get dismissed? Lets see…in 2011, LJ Hoes was 21 and put up a .788 OPS. Anthony Gose was at .763. Jaff Decker was at .789. That was at a cursory glance of AA. Hoes gets little press and little is heard about him.
by Looney4baseball on Nov 18, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
Well since you asked, Pastornicky is all of 1.5 months older and did better in AA and AAA
He also gets dismissed as “possible utility player” and “never will be a star.” Obviously it isn’t Beckham just being judged harsher because of his pedigree as the exact same thing happens to Pastornicky, who has the pedigree of being a 5th round pick. The problem is you’re ignoring the fact that what got Beckham that pedigree (his great tools) just no longer exists according to every scouting report I’ve seen. He can’t even manage better than average home to first times now according to KLaw. He ranks right around where Pastornicky does, because both are SS who haven’t produced big for their levels, have always been young for their levels, and lack anything resembling elite tools.
beckham OPS
Beckham 2009 OPS was +4 percent compared to league average in Low-A.
Beckham 2010 OPS was +2 percent compared to league average in High-A.
Beckham 2011 OPS was +0 percent, league average in Double-A.
Non-Rays scouting sources consider Simmons a superior defender to Beckham at this point. Beckham will be average at best at SS and many non-Rays scouting sources believe he fits better at second or third base.
He’s a C+.
by John Sickels on Nov 17, 2011 9:54 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
more
Scouts say Simmons is a superior athlete and that Beckham’s tools have degraded to some extent since high school. He still struggles with the strike zone and there are still questions about his swing. His plate discipline was quite poor in AAA.
Is he a prospect? Yes. Does he still have time to improve? Of course. But I just do not see how he is an elite prospect at this point. I have seen him and he does not look like an elite prospect to me.
beckham
If Beckham had gone to college and was drafted in 2011, does anyone seriously think he would have been a first-round pick again? Simmons was a second-rounder in 2010, and I doubt Beckham would have gone that high this year or in ’10 himself
I think he would have been.
At this point, it appears he is a better hitter than Mahtook, who is his age.
Mathook
I do not give much credit to AFL numbers but Mathook is .100 OPS higher than Beckham. Team average is .300 and Beckham is now hitting .244 while striking out tons of times. Mathook is hitting .338.
by Hak Ju Lee on Nov 17, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, I didn't realize that.
Its been a while since I looked at those numbers and I just assumed Beckham was still hitting better. Thanks for bringing that up.
Yea the walks have gone too.
he has hit quite the cold streak recently
No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.
by thedudeofdudes on Nov 17, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I missed a pretty important supporting point.
I’m wrong there.
Dang, Mahtook is doing a lot better than I expected. John, how good do you think the bat can be? It doesn’t appear the Rays will keep him at CF though.
hmm
I think he still would have been a decent prospect, but there would have definitely been questions about him on both sides.
On the other hand, seems likely there would have been some teams that liked him from past scouting reports. I’m guessing he would have been overdrafted relative to consensus opinion, probably going sometime between the supplemental first and the third round. C+ seems perfectly defensible for such a player.
In terms of floor
Also Simmons’ toolset gives him a significantly higher chance of becoming a useful player than Beckham; fielding ability/arm strength tends to be more reliable through the minors. At worst, I see Simmons’ becoming a glove-heavy utility player in the bigs if his hitting doesn’t pan out. Beckham won’t make it period if his hitting doesn’t improve drastically not to mention the fact that he might not even stick at short.
Beckham would be a plus defender at 2B.
And passable at SS. That makes him a utility player, unless his hitting falls off the table.
I really dont understand why it is so hard
for you guys to just accept someone else’s opinion that is different than yours. Okay they are not as high on Beckham as you guys, doesn’t mean you gotta get your dang panties in a bunch.
No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.
by thedudeofdudes on Nov 17, 2011 11:28 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
rglass has gone overboard, but I have no problem with John holding his opinion, especially since he is extremely knowledgable on the subject.
I just happen to disagree and see no problem with that.
huh? i havent hurled insults or invalidated anyone's opinions.
i just responded with MY opinion. when people attacked it, I provided my logic. how have i gone overboard?
You haven't hurled insults or anything.
But you have pretty much said tha Johns ranking is terrible. I guess that is your opinion, but there are better ways to put it.
I think his rating on a few people IS terrible.
But this is all subjective. I have a strong opinion on Beckham. I don’t see how a 21 YO that holds his own gets dismissed as being a worse prospect than an 18 YO with a few rookie ball ABs that everyone was clamoring to call an overdraft. Is Hager more likely to make the bigs than Beckham? Absolutely not. Is he more likely to be a star? I’d say no. That’s why the rating makes no sense.
sometimes the panties start out in a bunch
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Nov 21, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Hey!
Is this system better than the Tigers? Haha.
detroitbaseballpage.com
Why do the Rays bring out the babies?
It is beyond simple disagreement here. People are wishing others to get terminal cancer, over the inconsequential ranking of Tim Beckham. After 300+ posts in the previous organization discussion thread, haven’t we discussed this organization enough? I posted a bunch in that thread about why we shouldn’t take Oscar Hernandez’s numbers too seriously, but what’s the point in doing it again? I think disagree is actually a good thing, but come on.
by auclairkeithbc on Nov 18, 2011 10:02 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
It is just Sandy Kazmir.
Banned from draysbay too, so don’t catergorize others with him. Beckham tend to be a polarizing prospect, so I see no issue with it. Often, the issue is fans of otherteams joining into the discussion. Sure it is open for all teams to discuss, but sometimes it really lowers the level of the conversation, especially regarding Beckham. Don’t take this is an insult, but I had the write several replies explaining why we can’t, for sure, know Beckham is close to being an average MLB hitter.
I do enjoy most of the discussion. I was very happy with John’s answer to my Brett/Vettleson question, and now I feel as though Brett is the superior prospect thanks to him.
trolls
I’m tolerant but wishing people get terminal cancer? The culprit is gone and won’t return
by John Sickels on Nov 18, 2011 12:56 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Thank you
As a cancer survivor I appreciate this. Struggling with cancer is not someone should wish upon anyone.
Big Sexy
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by King Billy Royal on Nov 18, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
congratulations and i wish you the best. Cancer is not a joke.
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
+1
I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.
by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
You are my Dude, KBR, you know that :)
" It's never just a game when you're winning" - George Carlin
+1
I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.
by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.
by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.
by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.
by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I could care less about your graduate degree-I was a full professor at Harvard at 34 and am a full professor at Columbia now in a theoretical field whose main tool is statistical mechanics. So can can come down from your high place.
by Buzzy on Sep 24, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
While Moore is awesome (of course)...
and obviously there’s individuals I like behind him, but overall I can’t help but think this system is overrated and living off the hype of the past few years. Most of the most exciting talent is new, raw, and at least a couple of years away if things go well.
That said, they had an awesome early part of the draft this year that should be a big boost for them moving forward.
Top 10, but not 5
Based on John’s rankings so far, the Rays would currently have to trail Atlanta, K.C., St. Louis, Texas, and Arizona. Gotta think they’re behind Toronto, and probably the Padres, as well. But that’s about it, I would think.
So 8th…but with serious upside at the bottom rungs of the organization. Very promising going forward—-with average luck, they’ll vault into the top 5 again next year.
that sounds fair
the padres have a sneaky good farm system.
by James Westfall on Nov 18, 2011 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think that is a good spot to put them, and good for the Rays that Moore didn't graduate or it would be outside the top 10 easily
but we could end up looking back on this class as a great one or not so great, the Rays really have put a huge bit of their future (5-8 years down the road) into a bunch of unknowns.
I don't agree
The depth here is the premium beyond Moore. I agree that 80% won’t pan out that still leaves 5-6 solid MLBers including another top guy (YMMV) beyond Moore. The depth make this a system in the top third without Moore.
I'd also agree
it’s the classic argument of projected upside.
The unique element here is the sheer number of picks in the top 2 rounds. You’ve got to believe a number of these guys will pan out well. We may not know which yet, but the odds are very much in favor of the Rays coming out of this well.
It did seem to me they were somewhat conservative though, especially since they’d reduced payroll so much which seemingly put them in position to be very aggressive. It’s hard to accurately approach such a unique situation, but it seems most observers thought they did well but didn’t knock it out of the park. That can be based on comparing the results to what was an unprecedented haul of picks in what was considered a very rich draft pool. But were they prepared to drop $20 mil, which they could have?
That said, I’ve got to believe going forward they’re set up with a very well regarded system.
I wonder how much impact their situation affected the FA compensation changes forthcoming. I know it galled me they got comp picks for a month ot 2 of Hawpe and Qualls – but they played the system as it was, so can’t really bitch about it.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 20, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
Actually
I was mostly agreeing with TT, not DB. But to Dbulls point, the proof is in the pudding.
One concern I’d have that would tilt me more towards Dbulls perspective is that I’m not seeing a pattern of success in the Rays last 3 drafts (‘08 – ’10) yet. But even then the final verdict isn’t in there either.
Player development is so unpredictable, rarely a trendline consistently pointing up.
A good example – something rglass could hang his Beckham comp hat on – is Robinson Cano. Everybody felt talent was there, but his minors performances never reached to his perceived talent. He wasn’t a huge bonus baby, so he came with more limited expectations. He reached AAA in his age 21 season. Not hugely regarded defensively. Showed a bit more power and BA in minors, exact same OBP as Beckham. K rate is a very significant difference however.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 20, 2011 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Conservative Draft
I think a lot of us had the same thought back in June. I am not so sure now. Hager was not a touted pick but the early returns are very promising. They could have sprung for Norris and made BBA/KLaw/Sickels sing their praises but HS pitchers are very high risk and they already had Guerreri. Susac and Jackie Bradley were other possiblilities but I think most would say they has a lower upside than Hager at this point. They also went heavy HS later and sprung for Goeddel – not conservative. Drafts being what they are, all but Mahtook are very high risk. In hindsight, the one guy who got away to me was Brad Miller and he would have been thought of as a safe pick.
Interested in what you think about Lyerly
What about craige lyerly? You don’t think he might fit into this list somewhere? He has some big time speed. He can turn a single into a triple in 2 pitches. He led Hudson Valley in several categories and he was moved up at the end of the year? I see some potential with this kid. Also, what about Matt Rice? I know they are both a little older, but both guys did well this year.
Rice had a nice debut
and was one of the last players cut from John’s list.
Lyerly is an organizational player at this point.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 19, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Guy that fills a minors roster slot
not a prospect.
But things change for young players. He’s a guy that’s going to have to earn status with repeated good performance going up the system, not be handed it based on draft position.
That last sounded snarky – I agree that at the outset we have to assume the orgs have very good reasons for high picks. These guys are professionals, and they have to sign checks and hold jobs based on their opinions – a risk none of us face with our opinions except in fantasy league paybacks or personal wagers. It’s the individual’s development paths that are so unpredictable.
by nyyfaninlaaland on Nov 20, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
strasburg or moore??
im still goin with strasburg
What did everybody think of Beckham today on MLB.com championship game?
It was streamed live, and i have to say Mahtook is a better hitter than Beckham as of right now.
Yoenis Cespedes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW9ge8l3jY8
^ the bottom video ^
MLB Move Type "B" compensation to the post second round, pre third round area.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Nov 20, 2011 12:37 AM EST reply actions
Beckham showed a quick bat, I thought
And looked solid at SS.
by AndrewTorrez on Nov 21, 2011 9:51 AM EST up reply actions
The fact that Mahtook even dropped to the Rays means he's underrated
Or maybe that’s just me. But his tools are 55-60 across the board. The problem is that without a standout tool, he just doesn’t stick out as much in the mind of scouts, notwithstanding putting up video game numbers at one of the top programs in the NCAA. I’ve said it for a while now, and he still reminds me a lot of Jon Jay (not handedness, but whatever).
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"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

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