Arizona Diamondbacks Top 20 Prospects for 2012
Arizona Diamondbacks Top 20 Prospects for 2012
LIST UPDATED JANUARY 17, 2012
The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Comments are welcome, but in the end all analysis and responsibility is mine of course. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!
QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:
Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.
Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.
Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don't make it at all.
A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters. Many Grade A pitching prospects fail to develop, often due to injuries. Some Grade C pitching prospects turn out much better than expected.
Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise coming from me, and some C+ prospects turn out very well indeed.
Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment in the book for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.
1) Trevor Bauer, RHP, Grade A: I am a total believer, and fully expect Bauer to be a number one starter. I would have picked him over Gerrit Cole. Despite the heavy UCLA workload, I don't think his risk is any higher than any other pitcher his age, and it could be lower.
2) Tyler Skaggs, LHP, Grade A-: I don't know what to say here other than he's really good. Scouting reports are quite strong, numbers excellent, future number two starter although if everything works out. If everything works out (more on that below).
3) Archie Bradley, RHP, Grade A-: I very seldom give a grade like this to a high school pitcher, but I believe in Bradley almost as much as I believe in Bauer. He could be number one on this list a year from now.
4) Andrew Chafin, LHP, Grade B: I'm being more cautious here than with Bradley even though Chafin is a college guy; that's an instinctual call at this point. He has enough upside to rank higher next year if pro adjustment goes well. Could be number two starter or (at worst) a power reliever.
5) Patrick Corbin, LHP, Grade B-: Borderline B. Doesn't get as much attention as fellow-Haren-trade-acquisition Skaggs, but is a fine prospect in his own right who can develop into a mid-rotation starter.
6) A.J. Pollock, OF, Grade B-: Main question here is if he will develop more home run power, but he has a broad range of skills and is fully recovered from the 2010 elbow injury.
7) Matt Davidson, 3B-1B, Grade B-: I like him more than the similar Bobby Borchering at this point, but Double-A will greatly test his ability to make contact and he still needs defensive polish.
8) Bryan Shaw, RHP, Grade B-: That's a pretty nasty cutter he's developed, and he always had the arm strength to succeed if the control was there. I think he could close eventually.
9) Adam Eaton, OF, Grade B-: I saw him in the Arizona Fall League and I buy into him. Not a big guy, but he's got some tools and hustles his rear off. The stats are strong, and he can be a superb fourth outfielder or possibly a David DeJesus-type regular.
10) David Holmberg, LHP, Grade B-: You can make a case to rank him as high as 7th. Like Corbin, can be a mid-rotation starter.
11) Anthony Meo, RHP, Grade B-: Given the depth of pitching here, he might get overlooked. Will he start or relieve at higher levels? Grade could be at least a slot higher next year, maybe more.
12) Bobby Borchering, 1B-3B, Grade C+: Paired with Davidson and a similar profile as a power hitter, but with even worse contact problems and a weaker glove. Still young enough to improve.
13) Wade Miley, LHP, Grade C+: Can develop into a nice four/five starter, but he needs to do it right now or he'll get buried by guys with higher ceilings.
14) Ryan Wheeler, 3B, Grade C+: Glove is mediocre but he should be able to hit enough to hold a bench job as a 3B-1B-PH type for the right team.
15) Chris Owings, SS, Grade C+: Would rank higher based solely on youth, tools and upside, but his approach at the plate is currently awful and he needs better defensive reliability. High ceiling but a low floor.
16) Marc Krauss, OF, Grade C+: I think he's better than he looked last year, but will be more of a platoon/role player than a future regular.
17) Charles Brewer, RHP, Grade C+: Lost much of season to broken hand, and easy to overlook with the other live arms in the system. Like Miley, he has a short window of opportunity to establish himself but has a shot at becoming a back-end rotation member or a reliever.
18) David Nick, 2B , Grade C+: Contact hitter with gap power but needs to prove he can produce outside of the California League.
19) Kyle Winkler, RHP, Grade C+: TCU product from 2011 draft could rank much higher next year if elbow injury suffered late in college season doesn't hold him back.
20) Yonata Ortega, RHP, Grade C+: Can be a very useful reliever if he throws enough strikes.
21) Evan Marshall, RHP, Grade C+: Kansas State fourth round pick finished pro debut in Double-A, another potentially solid relief arm.
OTHERS: Chase Anderson, RHP; Michael Bolsinger, RHP; J.R. Bradley, RHP; Keon Broxton, OF; Jesse Darrah, RHP; Eury De La Rosa, LHP; Tyler Green, RHP; Tyler Linton, OF; Wagner Mateo, OF; John Pedrotty, LHP; Michael Perez, C; Blake Perry, RHP; Robby Rowland, RHP; Patrick Schuster, LHP; Taylor Siemens, LHP
Pitching is the obvious strength here. Arizona has four pitchers who project as number one or two starters with Bauer, Parker, Skaggs, and Bradley. Chafin isn't far behind, and then there are several other arms who could be inning-eaters or useful relievers. Keep in mind, of course, that if you have five great pitching prospects, you're doing well if you get one or two above-average pitchers. Remember what happened to the Royals last year. Someone will get hurt or backslide.
The weakness here is obvious, too: depth in position players. There is no one here who looks like a potential star hitter. Davidson and Borchering have impressive power but will their contact issues be troublesome at higher levels? I suspect so. They aren't going to hit for average, and how do they both fit in the lineup? You do have three intriguing outfielders in Pollock, Eaton, and Cowgill, but they look like fine role players or average regulars, not stars. Owings has a lot of potential up the middle but is extremely raw and has a high risk of failure.
Overall, the pitching is going to make this a fun organization to follow in 2012 and beyond.
116 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Top 4 Pitchers
Last year in John’s book, A/A- pitching prospects were all among the Top 10 pitching prospects.
When was the last time we saw a farm system with so much top-end pitching talent? Not even the Royals/Braves last year could compare.
This is definitely one of the best collective of pitching in the minors that I’ve seen in my lifetime. But I’d say the current Braves are almost up there as well.
The turnaround of Arizona’s farm system the last couple of years has been phenomenal. Cannot wait for next season…happy times ahead.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 13, 2011 9:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Watch out
The Mariners have a pretty damn good set of pitching prospects themselves, Hultzen/Paxton/Walker just might be the best trio of pitching prospects in baseball
by Cliff Lee Is A Beast on Nov 14, 2011 12:37 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry
But Walker just isn’t on that level. Don’t get me wrong, Hultzen and Bauer are awfully similar in value IMO, and Paxton strikes me as similar to Skaggs, but Parker > Walker seals it for AZ.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
I have Walker above Parker personally
by cookiedabookie on Nov 14, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Hmmm
Have to admit I find that peculiar. Just personal bias, I guess.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
yeah basically. I would say Parker myself but both are great young pitchers, wish I was a fan of one of those two teams haha
by Noah McKinnie Braun on Nov 14, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Well I might be a little biased also
But its hard to not like anything about Walker while recovery from TJ surgery and control issues are troubling parker right now. Walker has everything you look for in a pitcher (mid-90’s fastball, plus curve, developing other pitches, tall and fit, fluid motion) and is still just 20 (19?) and isn’t being rushed. He is a top 10 (maybe top 5) pitching prospect in baseball IMO and is definitely better than Hultzen.
by Cliff Lee Is A Beast on Nov 14, 2011 8:29 PM EST up reply actions
Need of a third pitch/consistency?
Parker’s got three big-league-caliber pitches, and potentially three big-league plus pitches.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
"definitely better than Hultzen"
He may have (probably has) a higher ceiling, but I’m pretty sure if you threw both of them into a major league rotation right now that Hultzen would be the more successful pitcher. Considering Hultzen’s own high upside and proximity to the majors, and Walker’s distance, it’s a little premature to say that Walker is definitely better.
by blackoutyears on Nov 15, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
ah, but
Isn’t it the nature of good pitching prospects to quickly lose that status, whether it be through decline or rapid graduation?
This isn’t a knock on the Dbacks group. Parker and Bauer should both lose their eligibility next year, and I think Skaggs has a decent chance at doing the same. All I’m saying is . . .be prepared for like a year, year and a half from now, when people are all like “it’s an okay system, but it’s really declined after losing all of that pitching . . .”
i mean
as a Dbacks fan, i could care less if the reason for decline is because we graduated the prospects
if it’s because of regression/injury, that will be a lot more unfortunate
also, the system has enough depth, that even though the top three are likely to graduate, we should still be a solid-enough system as is.
by blue bulldog on Nov 14, 2011 7:47 AM EST up reply actions
Dbacks fans will probably hate me for this, but let me throw this question out there, I think it's an interesting one
John says: “Keep in mind, of course, that if you have five great pitching prospects, you’re doing well if you get one or two above-average pitchers. Remember what happened to the Royals last year. Someone will get hurt or backslide.”
Okay, let’s lump Chafin in there. You’ve got five guys, let’s assume that the Dbacks do relatively well and get one above-average starter. Which one ends up as the above-average starter, and which one regresses/gets hurt?
i'm lower on Parker
than most other people
to me, Parker and Bradley have the highest risk going forward
by blue bulldog on Nov 13, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions
risk, yes
I meant it more as an intuition call, though. Obviously Parker (having a major injury on his record already) and Bradley (being the only teenager in the bunch) are the riskiest bets.
well as a straight up intuition call
with no evidence/arguments
i’d say Bauer ends up the above-average, and Parker regresses
by blue bulldog on Nov 13, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
Skaggs and Bauer develop into above average starters...
Parker ends up in the pen, Bradley gets hurt, Chafin really progresses.
Those are my guesses.
Now writing for BaseballInstinct.com
by Franchise887 on Nov 13, 2011 3:54 PM EST up reply actions
This is a fun hypothetical...
Skaggs and Bradley end up as starters, Chafin gets hurt (he was already as low as the 80’s in Instructs… yikes), Bauer closes, Parker is a 7th/8th guy.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 13, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm
Chafin and Parker start out alright but are always hurt, move to the ’pen eventually. Skaggs becomes a back end guy, and Bradley fails to progress.
"If you find a man or woman who sticks around after you tell them "I may be a demented horse, but I know CPR," you marry them. No questions asked." - kishi
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 13, 2011 4:24 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Intuition call
Bauer – #2 starter
Parker – solid mid-to-back rotation starter
Skaggs – struggles, ends up in pen
Bradley – bust
not sure how i feel on all of them
but i feel like
Bradley – Love the reports this fall about him. Now, biggest risk due to age, but I really love the potential to be a front of the rotation type. “1” or “2”, I’m not sure yet, but I like him the most.
Skaggs – I think he’ll be a solid mid-rotation lefty.
Not as in love with Bauer/Parker/Chafin as others, but this is one of those cases where I wouldn’t be surprised if they get 3 solid rotation arms out of this group.
Bradley
If anyone in this draft has Shelby Miller level potential, I’d say it’s Bradley. Same great package of build, stuff and delivery.
by blackoutyears on Nov 15, 2011 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
oh, and another question, this one only tangentially related to the Diamondbacks
True or false: In the new CBA, a rule should be put into place as follows: “If a team fails to sign their first round draft pick, their compensatory pick in the next year’s draft may not sign for more than the recommended slot bonus”.
Not fair
For the player drafted, you either sign for far less than you could normally have gotten or not be able to sign at all.
"When the going gets tough, the tough get going."
well, that goes both ways
If the team doesn’t sign the player they lose the pick, so they’re going to want to take somebody who they definitely know will sign, don’t they?
Besides, similar situations occur throughout every draft. No, getting drafted by the White Sox is not a good way to end up with an above-slot bonus. Yes, getting drafted by the Red Sox is a good thing for players with lofty demands. That doesn’t mean that if the White Sox end up with a higher first round pick than the Red Sox and they’re not willing to give Player X as much as the Red Sox would, they’re not allowed to draft Player X.
purpose?
"If you find a man or woman who sticks around after you tell them "I may be a demented horse, but I know CPR," you marry them. No questions asked." - kishi
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 13, 2011 4:25 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
the idea would be
Preventing a team from kicking a pick to the next year in a stronger draft/stronger draft position, where a more valuable (and in all likelihood more costly) player would be available. I’m uncomfortable with the idea of a team being able to essentially “roll over” not just a pick, but the money that they can spend on a pick to the next year. Rules should be in place to keep the focus on the present year’s draft.
your solution
quashes certain equitable concerns, while bringing up all kinds of equitable problems
if this is what you care about, then the best solution is to just make picks tradeable
by blue bulldog on Nov 13, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
just how many teams have done that though?
I think that system would also shaft teams who end up with a Barrett Loux or a Dylan Covey. I wouldn’t be in favor of it.
"If you find a man or woman who sticks around after you tell them "I may be a demented horse, but I know CPR," you marry them. No questions asked." - kishi
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 13, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
I really don't see this happening much
the value of a current pick is much higher than the value of a future pick. Also it is very hard to predict the strength of a draft a year down the road. Dealing with 18-21 year old kids who regress, rise, come out of nowhere etc…. I just don’t see this being much of an issue.
False
I’m an open market guy overall. I don’t like hard slotting, even/especially if it’s for only a pick or two every draft.
Fight for licensed online poker in 30 seconds. Take part in the daily action plan!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Poker-Players-Alliance-Daily-Action-Plan/240644152648049
twitter @PPADailyAction
False
Because the new CBA should do away with the asinine slot recommendations from Selig’s band of merry fools.
by realitypolice on Nov 13, 2011 11:39 PM EST up reply actions
i still think
there’s a decent chance Bauer starts with the team out of spring training. it will likely depend on how his command/control looks in spring training.
Bradley will likely start at South Bend.
not sure about Chafin or Meo. i would have liked to see Chafin start in A+, but there’s been a report of a velo drop this year. it’s possible both will be in South Bend next year to start, with quick promotions possible if they perform well.
by blue bulldog on Nov 13, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions
this works
I could see the Midwesterner Chafin starting in South Bend for comfort level, as well. Meo is a tossup to me. I think Bradley ends up in South Bend once the weather warms up.
the top 4
jeebus
Illuminate My Heart, My Darling!
Rookie writer at Baseball Canadiana
Twitter? I hardly know her!
Corbin
John, any specific issues that kept Corbin as a B- instead of a full B? I can see it either way, just curious if there was any specific factor that held his grade down.
Now writing for BaseballInstinct.com
can't speak for John
but personally, i have him a quite a bit lower than that
i guess i was just hoping for more after his performance last year, and his year in AA underwhelmed for me. and it’s not like he’s got amazing scouting reports to back it up.
by blue bulldog on Nov 13, 2011 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
I tend to agree with you
I get vibes that he’ll be a useful if unexceptional arm towards the back of a rotation.
He'll eat innings and hit his spots
Keep walks down and maybe strike out someone here or there. Seems like the report that’s out is pretty consistent. Voted best command in the SL this year by BA, though, so big believers in command might particularly like him for that reason. I’d have him lower, but see no significant problem with him being where he is (as it seems you three agree with).
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 13, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Very Happy about the Parker Ranking
no complaints
to be honest i was a little surprised
for some reason, i thought John wasn’t that high on Parker
by blue bulldog on Nov 13, 2011 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
This list is scary good.
"Hakeem couldn't kick your ass cuz you were too
close kissin his!"- Sir Charles to Kenny Smith.
Very different from my list
Which, of course, makes me happy. That’s what makes this so damn fun. :-)
Chafin’s working in the 80’s in Instructs scares the crap out of me, as was the fact that he supposedly hid an injury (I believe it was a groin pull or something) whilst signing. Upside’s good, but that’s a lot more risk you weren’t hoping for.
Other than that, biggest beef is perhaps that Marshall should be higher IMO. I think he’ll see Arizona in 2012, and the mid-90’s FB/plus slider combo will be in the back end of the ’pen quickly.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 13, 2011 4:10 PM EST reply actions
is it really that big of a concern?
If he really did have a groin injury, that may have played into it, and groin injuries aren’t really a long (erhem… sorry) term concern. This is also just his first year back from TJS.
"If you find a man or woman who sticks around after you tell them "I may be a demented horse, but I know CPR," you marry them. No questions asked." - kishi
by CaptainCanuck on Nov 13, 2011 4:21 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
yeah
it’s overall not that concerning for me right now
though, i do think it’s something that will need to be monitored next year. if his velo stays down, that would obviously be pretty concerning.
by blue bulldog on Nov 13, 2011 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
Best pitching
in the minor leagues?
Who’s even in a discussion? Mariners, Braves? Cardinals, Pirates if you really want to stretch it?
I’m sure I’m forgetting someone.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 13, 2011 4:40 PM EST reply actions
I think the Diamondbacks and Braves are in a class of their own.
In terms of minor league pitching.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 13, 2011 9:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The Mariners are definitely in that class
I guess I’ll post this twice, but Hultzen/Paxton/Walker are probably the best trio of pitching prospects in baseball IMO
by Cliff Lee Is A Beast on Nov 14, 2011 12:46 AM EST up reply actions
Eh
I don’t know that they are definitively better than any 3 of the Diamondbacks top 4, plus you get to add one more, but they sure are hell of good and they have to be up there.
The Cardinals top 3 isn’t bad either in Miller, Martinez, and Jenkins.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 14, 2011 1:27 AM EST up reply actions
You're entitled to that opinion.
But I don’t think many prospectors would agree with it. Seattle has three very good pitching prospects in the players you named. But Bauer>Hultzen (though maybe not by much), and Parker>Paxton. Walker might rank higher than Bradley on some prospect lists right now, but Bradley has better stuff and could surpass Walker this time next year.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 14, 2011 1:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
?
BA had Hultzen at 4, and Bauer at 5, but at the very least, Callis would have had Bauer higher, so it definitely wasn’t a consensus at BA
Sickels had Bauer higher than Hultzen
Keith Law also had Bauer higher than Hultzen in the final version of his Top 100, though just barely (6th vs. 7th)
don’t really know about BP because i don’t follow them
by blue bulldog on Nov 14, 2011 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks for pointing out where lists fail so badly.
By people interpreting them as such because of a one spot difference.
follow @casetines
by Kenneth Arthur on Nov 14, 2011 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
you totally missed the point
i showed the relative rankings to point out that the statement “Hultzen is higher regarded than Bauer by prospectors” is flawed
please try to take into account context next time
by blue bulldog on Nov 15, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions
From what I've seen, many prospectors even rank Walker as the best Mariners pitcher.
Callis had him as the #1 prospect in the entire Midwest League last year, so, there’s that.
Blue Jays?
They lack a true stud prospect, but have a slew of B/B+ guys in Hutchison, McGuire, Syndergaard, Nicolino, Daniel Norris and arguably Nestor Molina.
C'mon now
Four A’s + Chafin + Corbin…
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions
I think A- is a bit high for Bradley, myself
B+ seems more reasonable. But still a great collection of pitching prospects.
by cookiedabookie on Nov 14, 2011 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
I actually do agree with you on that
But I have Skaggs as an A as well.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Though I should probably town done that Skaggs grade, now that I really think about it.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
my grades and im sticking to it
1-parker…A-
2-skaggs…B+/A-
3-bauer…B+
4-bradley…B/B+
*although bauer could be at b+/a- territory with some pro data for me.
by James Westfall on Nov 14, 2011 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry if I wasn’t clear, but I was thinking of the Jays in the second tier there, with Seattle/Pittsburgh/St. Louis. It’s between Atlanta and Arizona for top spot.
The Rays are in the second tier.
This is going to sound homerish, but I would be surprised if Moore, Romero, and Guerrieri do not end up being the top pitching trio when we look back.
You’re right, it does sound homerish, inasmuch as Romero & Guerrieri aren’t that great. But Moore is incredible, and together with the depth of the Rays, I see your overall point.
To be fair, If Bradly is an A-, then Guerrieri should be a B+.
Romero would get a similar grade too then.
Bradley is an A- because John is really high on him; I don’t think that’s much of a guide to how good Guerrieri is; I would think he’s a straight B. I don’t know enough about Romero’s stuff to evaluate him.
They’re good prospects, I just thought the idea of them as a retrospective “top pitching trio” was a bit much.
I think I'd have to disagree on that
I like Guerrieri, but it’s a little bit of a wait and see on him. I have no doubt that Bradley is going to have otherworldly stuff.
You
would be surprised?
They are up against
Bauer, Skaggs, Bradley, and Parker (pick 3)
Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado
Hultzen, Paxton, Walker
Cole, Taillon, Heredia
Miller, Martinez, Jenkins
I’d be surprised if they made the top 3 out of those 6 “trios” as good as Moore is.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 15, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Would take any of those 6 Jays over Andrew Chafin or Patrick Corbin
Yeah though, there’s no comparison at the top.
I thought
Blue Jays, but for a completely arbitrary reason I decided a farm system needs a stud or two to be considered. If you have 8 #3 starters, that’s not that much better than 5. Yes you can trade them, and you have to consider attrition (which to make sure I’m not downplaying it, is a huge factor in both numbers and importance), but to really make an impact, a farm needs to develop a TOR starter or two.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 14, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
But pitching prospects are so much more unpredictable than hitting prospects; isn’t the value curve for ranked prospects substantially shallower? So while a stud prospect is great, I’m not sure that it’s as big a factor as you suggest.
Fair point
I’m not sure how to answer per se. I just feel like, and yes its a gut feeling, that its hard to succeed without that stud you can hand the ball to every 5 days.
That idea is overblown by the mainstream media certainly. Still, while 5 #3 pitchers may produce (hypothetically) as much value as a #1, 2, 3, 4, 5 over the course of a season, the way the playoff system is set up, give me the second option so I can throw a #1 three times, a #2 two times, and a #3 two times, instead of a #3 seven times.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 14, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
Partly I’m arguing that it’s difficult to predict how pitchers turn out. iirc, Porcello was supposed to be a #1 stud; he’s turned into a 3/4-type starter; I don’t think Dan Haren or Cliff Lee were ever considered as prospects to have ace-upside, but here they are. Pitchers in particular do not simply hit their projected ceiling or flop; some overperform their supposed ceilings, and some former studs float around the back ends of rotations, never living up to their potential.
As an aside, I would say that Syndergaard has no.1-upside among the pitchers I mentioned.
There
is truth to that, but there is truth on the positional side as well. Find someone who saw Pedroia being this good. He made the back end of one Baseball America top 100 prospects.
Yes I would agree pitchers are more volatile, but more so why you want 3 or 4 guys with #1 upside so you might actually get one, or if a miracle, occurs two.
I would agree Syndergaard has #1 upside, but I don’t think he’s even close to being on the level of
Diamondbacks – Bauer, Skaggs
Cardinals – Miller
Seattle – Hultzen
Pirates – Cole, Taillon
I mean, if you look at each system, Zona has 4 guys who could conceivably be #1’s. The Cardinals, 2. The Mariners, 2 or 3. The Pirates, 3.
Don’t get me wrong, the Jays have an amazing farm system, with impressive depth, very good pitching, and to boot elite positional talent, I just think their pitching alone isn’t on the level of say the Braves, Mariners, and Diamondbacks. It’s probably on a tier with the Pirates and Cardinals however. So going back to my original comment, technically it could have been in the “stretching category”
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 14, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions
Good points on the high-ceiling guys, but I find myself in disagreement over how to evaluate the value of different pitching prospects. The fact that pitching prospects are more volatile means there isn’t as much of a difference in expected value between, say a B- and an A- as you’d see for hitting prospects. I tend therefore not to look primarily at a pitching prospect’s “ceiling”, but rather take a more holistic approach.
As for where the Jays fit, I think I prefer their system (on the pitching side) to St. Louis and maybe Seattle, but I’ll settle for the “stretching category”.
So how
would you the pitching overall for the 6? Cause I have to assume you’d then put the Jays ahead of the Pirates. I wouldn’t necessarily balk at that either.
The Pirates have some elite talent at the top, but their lower tiers are hurting. They have plenty of depth of the lottery ticket type of guys, but none of them have really transitioned yet.
6 being..
Zona
Braves
Diamondbacks
Jays
Cardinals
Mariners
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Nov 14, 2011 8:39 PM EST up reply actions
If we're going by #1 upside
Hultzen is probably 3rd out of the mariners, the stuff isn’t as good as Paxton and Walker and he hasnt had a full dominant season like they have. Im interested in seeing what grade Jose Campos gets
My 3 (overall) would probably be, you can say what you want about other teams, but these 3 have top prospects and some interesting depth pieces:
DBacks
Mariners
Braves
The Rays might not look like they have great depth, but they have some good players in their system and all bets are off when you don’t pick them to be #1. They seem to be top 5 (pitching prospects) year in and year out even with big league graduations
by Cliff Lee Is A Beast on Nov 14, 2011 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
"Im interested in seeing what grade Jose Campos gets"
I agree. I think you have to include him in a SEA discussion, and that gives them four very intriguing arms.
I think you’re underestimating Hultzen, but it seems that’s pretty much his cross to bear at this point. I think you’re also letting velo stand in for “stuff”, when Hultzen has three pitches that are major league avg to plus and Paxton and Walker currently have two. And there’s little doubt that Hultzen is currently the best “pitcher” of the three.
by blackoutyears on Nov 15, 2011 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
"And there’s little doubt that Hultzen is currently the best "pitcher" of the three."
Hultzen and Paxton are pretty close, you’ll hear a lot of people saying that Hultzen is the 4th best MLB pitcher on the Mariners (behind Felix, Pineda and Vargas), but if Paxton has a good ST, I wouldn’t be surprised if he made the team before Hultzen, he improved over the course of last year and definitely has the ability to pitch in the Bigs in April and has the year in the minors that Hultzen doesn’t have. Hultzen will have a Strasburg-type timetable regardless of how he does at ST IMO (unless the new union agreement takes out Super-Two’s).
Well, from what I read, Walker and Paxton have mid-90’s fastballs with a lot of movement. Thats more than Hultzen can say. That and because Walker and Paxton both have at least one plus breaking pitch (unlike Campos), I would label Walker and Paxton as having more upside than Hultzen. Its just my opinion on the matter, both Paxton and Walker are one change-up away from being truly dominant. While Hultzen should have the more successful career and has a lot higher floor, Walker and Paxton have a little bit higher ceiling. Hultzen’s lack of jaw-dropping velocity will cause people to question his upside until he proves himself in the majors. There are guys like Cliff Lee and Cole Hamels who have had #1 starter success with an arsenal similar to Hultzen’s so it isn’t unheard of
by Cliff Lee Is A Beast on Nov 17, 2011 2:37 AM EST up reply actions
"both Paxton and Walker are one change-up away from being truly dominant."
That’s significant though. I’ve been following Paxton since he hit the UK campus, so I’m very familiar with his stuff and the meandering path he’s taken to his current position as a revitalized prospect. I’m really happy for him, and I’m a big fan, but he will not to demonstrate that last year’s gains in control were legit and he will have to work on his secondaries. It’s nice to see him throwing mid-90s again as he did in his sophomore year.
Hultzen sits 92-94 touching 95 on his best days, and consistently 91-94. He’s got plenty of FB and he commands it well.
It’s no stretch to say that Paxton and Walker have more upside, or that hultzen doesn’t have #1 upside, it’s more the idea that his “stuff” is inferior or that he needs to have had a dominant minor league season to be measured alongside them. He clearly has very good stuff which is enhanced by his command, and I’d say starting his career in the AFL and pitching very well ameliorates concerns about his relative lack of professional experience.
by blackoutyears on Nov 18, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
ranked!
Probably I’d go:
Arizona
Atlanta
Seattle
Toronto
Pittsburgh
St. Louis
But I can’t say I know the depth in Pittsburgh or St. Louis much at all, so I could move either up if I were pleasantly surprised there.
I agree
I probably would have slotted him 5th, ahead of Chafin, as a B or B+. I think the bat looks great but the fact he plays an offensive-demanding position (1B) would take away some of the prospect shine for me. I think he’s going to put up ridiculous power numbers in that park though.
I bet...
He’d be an A-. Maybe still 5th, but you could argue him over Bradley due to lack of pro data.
Right in that first tier
Completely buy into him as a prototypical 4th/5th hitter & I think he only gets better.
I've been looking forward to this list.
I love the pitching depth in this system, and I am stoked to see Parker and Bauer contribute next season. Might we see Skaggs in 2012? Archie Bradley has insane upside as well, obviously. Could end up being the best of the bunch.
In terms of position playing talent, lots of players are ‘work in progress’ types, but the talent is there. But the pitching is so great, it more than makes up for the lack of depth in that area, IMO.
It’s a great time to be a Diamondbacks fan, that’s for sure.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 13, 2011 9:05 PM EST via mobile reply actions
I like Bradley the best
followed by Parker, Bauer, and then Skaggs.
Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN
by Nnamdi Asomugha on Nov 13, 2011 11:05 PM EST reply actions
DBacks 2011 Draft
I loved their latest draft; Bauer, Bradley, Chafin, Meo, and they grabbed Winkler later. TONS of high-upside pitching talent added to an already good crop headed by guys like Parker and Skaggs. I can’t say I’m as bullish on Bauer but I do think he’ll be very good; a #3 at the very least barring he stays healthy. I like Meo a little more than you have him ranked too; he reminds me some of a poor man’s Alex Meyer in that he flashes frontline starter potential with a plus fastball with some sink and a hard, biting breaking ball but also the inconsistency that may make him a late-inning reliever.
The system is definitely tin on position players, but Eaton offers a good plate approach that could make him an average regular (I think the DeJesus comp is pretty good), Pollock had a great year in AA, and they have some upside in young power-hitting corner-infield bats in Davidson and Borchering. It could be a lot better but the the pitching still makes this system excellent.
I particularly liked the Perez and Marshall picks, in the fourth and fifth rounds.
Perez would go in my top-30, and Marshall in my top-20.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 12:57 AM EST up reply actions
it could be even better, though
They gave a big bonus to Ty Linton last year . . .but they could have opted instead to pursue prep LHP Kevin Ziomek. Might hear a lot about him in a couple years’ time.
They tried to pursue both, IIRC
Ziomek, as a Vandy guy, was awfully insistent on going to school.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions
Meo was a great value pick.
So much pitching depth in this system.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 14, 2011 1:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Excellent system.
I like how the pitchers are all close to MLB also.
I do have a question though, which is my main problem with the grading system. Do you view Bauer in the same class as Strausburg (or Moore), who both got A grades?
I guess you could say that not all As are equal. I would think that a numerical grading system, in which there are more grades, would be better.
Given the write-up
Of seeing him as a #1, and soon, I would guess that John actually does see him on that same level.
Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission (SDSPBC). SDSPBC is a totally, definitely for-profit organization.
by Dan Strittmatter on Nov 14, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
As Strasburg?
I just have a hard time seeing that, as Strasburg has a significant edge in stuff and command.
i would probably
have Bauer a step below Strasburg/Moore, but still in A territory. it’s hard, because he’s definitely a step-above pretty much all the A- guys to me.
last year, Drabek, Miller, Britton, Turner were the A- guys. i definitely have Bauer higher than that.
last year, the A guys were Hellickson, Chapman, Teheran, Moore, Pineda, Sale. i would definitely say Bauer fits in with this group of guys more than the A- group.
by blue bulldog on Nov 14, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
never gonna happen unless...
ken giriffey jr and barry bonds have a baby and mean while greg maddux and bob feller have a baby and by some miracle those babyies met and had a baby…that would be the A+. also andruw jones and nolan ryan had to be the god parents.
by James Westfall on Nov 14, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
i feel the same way.
I just don’t think Bauer can be an “A” the way Strasberg is an “A”. Also who would you rather have on your team, shelby miller or trevor bauer? personally I am leaning towards shelby miller.
by James Westfall on Nov 14, 2011 6:20 PM EST up reply actions
Shelby Miller
Also should be an A though. Within a grade level, there are a variety of talent levels. From a prospect ranked roughly #50 to a prospect ranked outside all top 100 lists at let’s say #125, there is usually quite a difference, even though both players would be straight B prospects.
by auclairkeithbc on Nov 14, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
I would rather have Bauer.
The bird is struggling out of the egg. The egg is the world. Whoever wants to be born, must first destroy a world.
by Stupendous Man on Nov 14, 2011 8:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Hard one
It’s kind of hard to pick either one right now due to there not being much pro ball data on Bauer. I think they are both very good prospects and i’d give a slight edge to shelby right now due to Bauer not having a pro ball track record. But I could see Bauer being the better pitcher in the long run.
by srbaseball2003 on Nov 17, 2011 11:45 AM EST up reply actions
Looking at the Davidson/Borchering comments
No mention of Borchering being a switch hitter.
I agree with the grade for the siBomple reason Borch needed to be moved off of 3b already, and is struggling as an outfielder in early trials. Davidson is still hanging on defensively at 3rd.
Borchering is probably going to end up getting traded,,,,,,but I still think his switch hitting bat will be an asset,,,,perhaps in the AL
The worst major leaguer is better at baseball than I'll ever be at anything I ever do in my life.

by 















