Crystal Ball: Mike Carp
I did a few of these a year ago. None of them turned out well. But they were fun to do. I couldn't tell if you guys liked them, but I hope to do a couple this offseason because I had a good time doing them. Anyhow, I am going to start off with Mike Carp.
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Age/Year 23/2009 24/2010 25/2011 26/2012 27/2013 28/2014 29/2015 30/2016 31/2017 32/2018 33/2019 Total |
AB 54 37 290 411 429 450 531 401 201 198 17 3,019 |
AVG .315 .189 .276 .243 .260 .258 .272 .234 .212 .232 .115 .242 |
OBP .415 .268 .326 .302 .325 .315 .338 .300 .275 .305 .209 .309 |
SLG .463 .243 .466 .475 .420 .398 .497 .397 .343 .389 .277 .419 |
HR 1 0 12 21 17 14 30 12 5 3 0 115 |
RBI 5 0 46 69 71 65 88 46 20 27 2 439 |
SB 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 0 4 |
Position DH/LF DH DH DH 1B 1B 1B 1B 1B PH PH
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Team Mariners Mariners Mariners Mariners Mariners Orioles Marlins
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Mike Carp is pretty cool. He was traded from the Mets to the Mariners in the whole Franklin Gutierrez/JJ Putz/Jason Vargas trade. When I heard he was coming over, I was reading about him a lot and he kept on getting compared to Lyle Overbay, which made good sense at the time. He walked a lot, didn't strikeout a lot, and had below average power for a first baseman.
Well sometime this year, he completely turned around his approach. In the minors he was known as a guy who waited for his perfect pitch to hit, and when he got it he usually put it in play. Now, I would call him more of a guy who looks to hit pitches hard, which would explain his swing percentage of 49.3% and his line drive percent of 24.8%. And when he does drive the ball, his power is no joke. Look at his pull power in this spray chart below:
wvia pitchfx.texasleaguers.com
And just in case your'e not convinced.
As you might have noticed, that particular home run was off a left-handed pitcher, which isn't unusual for Mike Carp as he slugged .543 against southpaws this year with an ISO of .236.
Another strength Carp has is his ability to shorten up his swing on a ball inside. As Jeff Sullivan puts nicely:
Somehow, Mike Carp turned this fastball into a home run. A pretty good home run, too, as it got out by a few rows to right-center. Sometimes, guys who mash in triple-A get by mashing with long swings that can be exposed in the Majors. Carp clearly has his holes, as evidenced by his low contact rate, but I don't think we need to worry about his swing being too long. That is a very tough pitch to hit out, and he hit it out.
One of his weakness, like many other low contact, power guys, is his tendency to chase low breaking pitches. Take a look at his swing chart:
You see all of those blue, green, and purple shapes below the strike zone? That's what attributed to his 25.9% K rate this year.
I am looking forward to watching Mike Carp next year, and am hoping he brings back some of his patience of a few years ago. His key to success is to lay off those damn low off-speed pitches that he can't reach, and even though that's easier said than done, he could surprise a lot of people if he does so. Just a few months ago people were stamping the AAAA label on him, and he has made major strides to prove that he is not. I don't know if he has already reached his peak offensively or not, but he could do a lot to help himself next year, and hopefully make a good career out of it.
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Good write up.
Carp impressed me a ton this year. I hear a lot of people point to his .343 BABIP as a sign of regression next year, but its not like he didn’t deserve it. Among all Major League batters with a minimum of 290 AB’s, he ranks 14th out of 272.
Steve Albini?
Is that you?
Also, I think every LH1b that isn’t an absolute dynamo gets the ‘Lyle Overbay comparison’ these days. It’s a rite of sorts it seems. That & the ‘Juan Pierre comparison’ for fast OFs sans power are the faves these days it seems.
Depends
Power oriented=Adam LaRoche
Contact oriented=Lyle Overbay
draft pedigree
. . . is a powerfull thing as far as perception goes eh? Thats what I was thinking late in the season when I was at a series at the Safe and watched Mike Carp finally get some consistent playing time at first base. While Carp had to dink around out in leftfield to make room for “franchise talent” Justin Smoak, here he was displaying far better range, agility, and general skill at first than Smoak showed, in my opinion.
Is there anything that Smoak does better than Carp? Not really. He hit better in the minors (especially at the AAA level), has hit a lot better in the majors, and looks like a better fielder too. Not that Smoak is bad over there, just that Carp is better. What’s funny is that you don’t here anybody talking about moving Smoak out to leftfield to make room for Carp. Maybe they should though. Shoot, Smoak isn’t even that much younger – Carp turned 25 in June, Smoak will in December.
If Carp wins that 1B job next spring, he will have earned it.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
I watch most games on TV, and I have seen that Carp is probably better at first than Smoak, but neither are that great.
I still believe in Smoak, and do buy the “injured hand” excuse that caused him to slump so bad. When he came back from the DL, he was on fire
by MilesC on Oct 10, 2011 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't agree with that
I warched Carp a lot and he is quite good in all regards in my view – very good at charging bunts, nice range, throws well. Looks like one of the fairly rare 1B that is actually an asset oveer there.
Smoak, to me is more your typical, big, smooth 1B. Pretty solid but, typically slow-footed guy.
Neither are going to hurt you but, Carp looks like he’d help a team more to me.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
Smoak’s numbers plummeted when he tried to play through a hand injury, making it impossible to gauge his true talent just by looking at his 2011 numbers. He was elite for the first month+, awful for a couple of months when he was playing hurt, and pretty good over his final 85 healthy plate appearances before he broke his face in a freak injury. It’s very likely that none of these three portions of the season reflect his true talent level.
Carp put up decent, not great numbers over a half-season, helped by a .343 BABIP that may reflect true improvement, may be a fluke, or (most likely) may be some combination of both. He vastly exceeded my expectations and forced his name into the conversation, but he’s still a guy who K’s a lot, walks virtually never, and has merely decent and not elite power. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a productive major leaguer, but his margin of error as a 1B/LF/DH is razor thin.
Obviously Smoak hasn’t earned anything for next season yet, but were I laying down bets on which one becomes an above average major leaguer, my money’s still on him over Carp.
by slamcactus on Oct 10, 2011 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The question there is why?
No offense but, all that sounds like to me is a nunch of excuses why Smoak hasn’t performed and, conversely looking at evrything Carp has done in a negative slant. The perception is that Smaok is the huge prospect and Carp isn’t but, there isn’t any real good reasoon to believe this in my opinion.
Smoak has had four, separate, stints and hasn’t slugged over .407 in any of them nor has he hit nearly as well as Carp in AAA ball, nor is he appreciably younger. If Carp has decent usable power, then Smoak must have, in-decent power and, it’s time to just face it tghat Carp lot better hitter in general.
Good to see your words around though. How have you been?
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
I think I am usually pretty skeptical about injuries potentially being a cover up for bad play, but for Smoak I do believe his hand caused the slump.
The medical reports that came back were apparently the thumb was a issue that had lasted a few months, which was about the same time gap of Smoak’s slump, and it was obvious he was hiding it. The first two months Smoak had were All-Star production, his BABIP was not inflated, and they were right around the numbers people projected him having. Smoak has a superior eye, superior potential, and superior contact, while their average is probably equal. While both Carp and Smoak have their flaws, I am willing to give Smoak another chance to prove himself wrong.
semantics
No offense but, all that sounds like to me is a nunch of excuses why Smoak hasn’t performed and, conversely looking at evrything Carp has done in a negative slant.
There is an explanation for Smoak’s uneven performance. One that, if true, unquestionably affected him to some degree. Whether you view that explanation as a “reason” for his uneven performance or an “excuse” is a semantic distinction that depends almost entirely on your pre-formed opinion of him, and not on the quality of the explanation itself. If you view it as an excuse then of course it becomes easy to look at his cumulative stats and write him off. But it’s circular, because you’ve already done that before you even begin the exercise. Neither of us have seen Smoak’s medicals, and neither of us know how his swing was affected by his thumb injury. If you’ve ever played baseball, you should understand that if true, a significant injury in your hand can really mess up your swing. I don’t know if it’s a reason or an excuse, but I’m not ready to give up on finding out if Smoak can be the guy he was in April again (or even the August/September version, as his .359 wOBA post-injury was better than Carp’s season line).
I’m not looking at Carp entirely in a negative light. He’s pretty clearly improved and I’m impressed as hell that he’s made himself relevant again. There’s the good (.341 wOBA, .190 ISO), the not so good (6% BB-rate, 26% k-rate, .343 BABIP that he almost certainly won’t repeat), and the cumulative effect, which is that even if you look at him optimistically and call him an average defender (bucking advanced defensive metrics and scouting reports that indicate otherwise), he played basically at a 2-win level. So if you think he has a chance to be an impact player, you need to think he’ll improve on his 2011 numbers, because any regression and he slides back into second-division starter status (or, if you think he’s a bad defender, he then becomes dangerously close to replacement level). I just don’t see much reason for optimism that he’ll ever be better than he was in 2011. But that’s just me. I could be wrong.
Smoak has had four, separate, stints and hasn’t slugged over .407 in any of them nor has he hit nearly as well as Carp in AAA ball, nor is he appreciably younger.
Smoak has played parts of two major league seasons. It’s not at all uncommon for players to have a couple bad season fragments and then to go on to have very productive careers. Especially when there’s an injury involved. Especially when that injury can completely screw up your swing mechanics, timing, and bat speed.
None of this is to say that Smoak deserves a total mulligan for his 2011. His injury may not explain the uneven performance. Maybe he just isn’t very good. But between him and Carp, Smoak is the only one who’s shown flashes of being an impact level talent. For a team that’s dying for some offense, it’s way premature to give up on a guy who has a chance to be an above average bat in favor of the guy who worked his ass off to become average, but who will probably never be any more than that (and could be a whole lot less).
IMO, the next above average first baseman for the Mariners will either be Smoak or someone from outside the organization. Carp is a placeholder, not a building block.
by slamcactus on Oct 11, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
very reasonable, all of it.
A few points I left out though that might clarify what im thinking. . .
I guess i would just add that until this season, when Carp was rather desparate to jump start his chances at a big league career by showing more power (he actually started this process last year), he had a decent batting eye. i do not think he is a guy who “almost never walks” going forward. He drew 79 walks in AA a few years ago. He has enough eye to work a count in his favor. He wasn’t going to impress the Mariners by getting called up and doing the Jack Cust thing – he needed to be aggressive!
There are no scouting reports that I know, that I would trust anyways, that would tell me that Carp is not a good glove man. If you watch him its obvious he’s pretty good there.
Aside from the debate about what Smoaks “real” talent level was this season, my real point that Carp wasn’t just better this year, he’s been consistently better or, at least just as good. All I’m saying is that yes, the perception is that Smoak is the “building block” and Carp is the “placeholder”. However, there isn’t any real, logical reason to believe this if you really look at what they do. I think Carp is a better pure hitter, to me he is better with the glove, and he may not be as big and strong looking as Justin Smoak but, he hits for more power too. . . and they are both 25 year olds! Well, Smoak will be in a couple months.
I’d like to see Smoak get it going too because I’m a Mariner fan but, I’m kinda getting tired of waiting. I hope it’s a moot point anyways because the M’s could use BOTH of these guys in the lineup, at thier best.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
I guess i would just add that until this season, when Carp was rather desparate to jump start his chances at a big league career by showing more power (he actually started this process last year), he had a decent batting eye. i do not think he is a guy who "almost never walks" going forward. He drew 79 walks in AA a few years ago. He has enough eye to work a count in his favor. He wasn’t going to impress the Mariners by getting called up and doing the Jack Cust thing – he needed to be aggressive!
I don’t disagree with this, but I don’t think it paints a very rosy picture of Carp’s prospects. He’s shown he can have an ok batting eye, and he’s shown he can have ok power. He’s never shown he can do both at the same time. For a first baseman, that’s a big red flag.
Aside from the debate about what Smoaks "real" talent level was this season, my real point that Carp wasn’t just better this year, he’s been consistently better or, at least just as good.
Smoak’s wOBA in the upper minors (AA and AAA): .382 in 704 plate appearances. Carp’s: 375 in 2,217 plate appearances. Take away Carp’s breakout this year, and it goes down to .363. Smoak has been the better hitter of the two in the minors, even including this year. And Carp has gotten consistent playing time at each level that has been uninterrupted while Smoak has bounced around between mid-season promotions and trades.
All I’m saying is that yes, the perception is that Smoak is the "building block" and Carp is the "placeholder". However, there isn’t any real, logical reason to believe this if you really look at what they do.
The real, logical reason to believe this is that Smoak has the potential to combine an elite batting eye with good in-game power, which is a package that adds up to something like a .360-.370 wOBA (somewhere between his excellent April and his pretty good August/September, the only months where he was unquestionably healthy). Carp has never shown the capability to put up those kinds of numbers. There are very real reasons to suspect that 2011 was the best offensive output you’ll ever see out of him, and while it looked great to a Ms team that couldn’t get anything going on offense last year, that level just isn’t that good for a first baseman.
Again, I’m not saying Smoak is a lock to be a star, or even a good player. I’m just saying if you’re looking for a guy who might become an above average bat for a power position, Carp isn’t that guy, unless he has another great leap forward left in the tank (and it’s VERY unlikely to see a guy break out more than once to a new level of performance). Smoak may not be either, but he’s the one who’s got a chance to be an impact guy.
Sigh
We’ll never see eye to eye on this because you look at one guy who hits .227, and another who hits .273 and you see the same ability to get hits.
Then you loom at thier differences in walks and you see a firm advantage.
Then you give Smoak an advantage in power, even though he doesn’t actually ever hit for more power . . . anywhere. AA 2009, same power. 2010, same power, 2011 Carp: lots more power.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Carp has been playing in the minor leagues since he was 18 and, the only reason he is thought of as a less player is becaue of opinions about him as a player that were formed at draft time, and the first few years in the minors.
You are probably half right though, I admit. Carp is likely not a great talent but, an average one at 1B. I think they are very similar talents, all in all. The general perception doesn’t match this though.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
We’ll never see eye to eye on this because you look at one guy who hits .227, and another who hits .273 and you see the same ability to get hits.
That’s absolutely false. I look at the player and evaluate context, which is something that you repeatedly seem to refuse to do. When a guy puts up a decent line but is aided by a BABIP that seems unsustainable, I “look at the guy who hits 273” and ask whether his secondary skills will allow him to succeed if his luck runs out. In Carp’s case, the answer is “not unless he makes big improvements elsewhere.”
If you really think he can maintain a BABIP around .340 or above into the future, then you’re right, we’ll never agree, because he has never shown any special skill that will make him a batting average outlier.
Similarly, when a guy was hitting like an All-Star first baseman to start the year, and then his power disappears at the same time he was playing through an injury, then yeah, I don’t pay much attention to his end-of-year line. Especially when he came back healed and the power stroke returned.
Then you loom at thier differences in walks and you see a firm advantage.
Walking is a repeatable skill that is a huge part of being an adequate hitter. Thanks to wOBA we have a very good understanding of the value of different outcomes, and players who can avoid making outs at a high clip have a huge advantage over players who can’t. So yes, when a guy at a power position has a bad approach and in his “breakout” season still only managed a .326 OBP, that’s a big red flag. When another has a history of very good plate discipline, that’s a big advantage.
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. Carp has been playing in the minor leagues since he was 18 and, the only reason he is thought of as a less player is becaue of opinions about him as a player that were formed at draft time, and the first few years in the minors.
Do you think people look at Matt Moore and think “pfft. He was only an 8th round draft pick?” Do you think people think less of Desmond Jennings because he was a 10th rounder? People don’t think much of Carp and never has because there is nothing about his skill set that suggests he can be a star in the majors. This is something that apparently not even you disagree with.
You are probably half right though, I admit. Carp is likely not a great talent but, an average one at 1B. I think they are very similar talents, all in all. The general perception doesn’t match this though.
Do you really think the book is closed on Smoak? You don’t see any possibility that his hand injury may have dragged down the line on an otherwise productive player? No possibility that the .141/.211/.188 line he put up in July had anything to do with the injury that finally put him on the disabled list?
This is the core of our disagreement, and I find it really hard to believe that you put zero credence into the idea that there are reasons not to take Smoak’s end-of-season line at face value. This must be the case, since I can’t believe that you would really value Carp equally to the Smoak we saw at the beginning and end of the year.
And if you really think there’s no chance whatsoever that the injury affected Smoak’s performance, I find that flabbergasting. You have to understand how debilitating hand injuries can be for a hitter. Why you’d just ignore that and repeat “season line! low slugging percentage! batting average!” is beyond me.
by slamcactus on Oct 11, 2011 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
To be honest
I knew of the hand injury but, i wasn’t aware of when it occured. Do you know the date of it?
All I saw was a guy who hit well in April and dissapointed the remainder of the season.
If you are judging Mike Carp’s season so harshly, what is so damned impressive about Smoak’s September? 3 hrs? 5 BB? 20 Ks? a .438 SLG?
I am acknowledging your point about his season batting line, Just to be clear, Smoak was injured in early May right?
I should be honest though. I have to upfront about my own true feelings. i don’t even believe in the validity of the metrics you mention about Carps value. I think he was a quite terrific player, despite the low OBP. he was making things happen, hitting for power and putting runs on the scoreboard. I also think the majority of WAR is complete bullshit – Daric Barton = amazing talent in 2010, etc.
I also don’t think his walk rate, K rate, or BABIP are red flags at all. I do not usually ver care about BABIP, to be honest.Didn’t the guy above just quote a 24.8 perent LD rate? Doesn’t that count for something?
As much as you think I keep ignoring you and pounding away with Smoak’s batting line in the majors, you have done exactly the same thing when I point out that Carp has hit for more power in the major leagues (even if you take out 2011 for Smoak) and in the minor leagues.
Aside from April of last year, when Smoak looked good. I see no other evidence that these two guys are much different, as far as quality goes. I also just don’t believe in the value of the walk as much as you do.
Here’s one direct question that you might answer, If you could do me one favor? Why does Carp catch nothing but hell from you for actually being good last year and Smoak get nothing for completely SUCKING in the majors in 2010? 397 Pa’s – .307 Obp – .371 Slugging. I only bring this up because he wasn’t injured or, was he?
One last point about Carp: I love that Carp gets ZERO rope from you about his .326 OBP, that he could improve that based on his improving power and batting eye he has shown in the past but, also gets no credit for his .466 SLG pct. So, his OBP represents his actual skill – SLG doesn’t. Does that about sum it up for ya? I just want to be clear. I just don’t believe that at all.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
The hand injury...
was sometime in mid-May.
If you are judging Mike Carp’s season so harshly, what is so damned impressive about Smoak’s September? 3 hrs? 5 BB? 20 Ks? a .438 SLG?
Nothing in particular, but his .358 wOBA when he returned from injury was pretty good (and significantly better than Carp’s season line), and showing that his power stroke had returned was encouraging. He only had 85 PAs to play with though. Obviously there’s nothing conclusive there except knowing that he’s still capable of hitting the ball over the fence, which he wasn’t during his injury-affected months.
I also don’t think his walk rate, K rate, or BABIP are red flags at all. I do not usually ver care about BABIP, to be honest.Didn’t the guy above just quote a 24.8 perent LD rate? Doesn’t that count for something?
I’m always surprised by people who follow baseball as closely as you do who hold to this line of thinking. I could quote you statistic after statistic on how batting average and BABIP take huge sample sizes to stabilize, but it surprises me that I’d even need to. After years of seeing every baseball player alive, even the best ones, see their average fluctuate wildly, and after years of seeing the effect of either good or bad defense on whether a ball in play is a single, a double, a home run, or just another lousy out, how do you just write off the effect of luck on a player’s stat line? Especially when it’s over a tiny 313 PA sample? How is that not just intuitive?
Most slow-footed 1B/COF/DH types don’t run BABIP’s of .340 over any significant period of time. Even ones who have the ability to absolutely crush the ball. Not David Ortiz, not Ryan Howard, not Albert Pujols, not Kevin Youkilis. There’s very little reason to believe that Mike Carp will be an exception to that rule. Just 5 singles that turn into outs, and Carp’s line goes down to .258/.310/.448. That’s Mike Jacobs territory (who, come to think of it, is actually a decent comp for the kind of player I think Carp has the potential to become). That’s the kind of player who gets released from the Royals.
Secondary skills are far more repeatable than a high rate of hits on balls in play over a half-season’s worth of PA’s. That’s why they’re far more important in evaluating a player’s worth than numbers that are highly dependent on batting average.
I should be honest though. I have to upfront about my own true feelings. i don’t even believe in the validity of the metrics you mention about Carps value. I think he was a quite terrific player, despite the low OBP. he was making things happen, hitting for power and putting runs on the scoreboard. I also think the majority of WAR is complete bullshit – Daric Barton = amazing talent in 2010, etc.
What do you mean by “the majority of WAR?” If you mean UZR, we’ve hashed out that debate many times – it’s always been meant to be taken with a grain of salt and not as an exact number.
But if you have a problem with wOBA you probably need to give a bit more sophisticated account of your misgivings than “it’s complete bullshit,” because there are decades worth of linear weights research that’s gone into that stat, and it just may be as close as we ever get to an all-encompassing picture of a hitter’s true worth. There are imperfections, but they’re really, really small, and the correlation between wOBA and run production works fantastically well on whatever scale you want to put it (individual, team-wide, league-wide, over entire eras, etc.). There’s a whole lot more than theory there. It works, and it works well.
Here’s one direct question that you might answer, If you could do me one favor? Why does Carp catch nothing but hell from you for actually being good last year and Smoak get nothing for completely SUCKING in the majors in 2010? 397 Pa’s – .307 Obp – .371 Slugging. I only bring this up because he wasn’t injured or, was he?
Carp’s “good” season resulted in a .341 wOBA (or .791 OPS) last year. He doesn’t get “nothing but hell” from me, but that’s more adequate than good, and like I said, the signs I’m paying attention to tell me that there’s more reason to believe that he’ll regress from that level than there is to believe that he’ll improve. Smoak had a very bad half-year in the majors in 2010. He was 23. The list of 23 year olds who don’t succeed immediately in the majors but go on to have excellent careers is very, very long.
Again, this is all about ceiling. Carp has a ceiling as an adequate player. Smoak has a higher one. Smoak isn’t a guarantee at this point, but he’s a far more promising player than Carp, because there’s the possibility that he can be more than adequate. I’ve tried to make it clear that my position isn’t as a cheerleader for Smoak, but merely that between these two players, he’s got a much better chance to be an impact bat.
One last point about Carp: I love that Carp gets ZERO rope from you about his .326 OBP, that he could improve that based on his improving power and batting eye he has shown in the past but, also gets no credit for his .466 SLG pct.
OBP is more important than slugging percentage. That’s the whole point of preferring wOBA to OPS. wOBA assigns the appropriate run values to different outcomes, while OPS is a silly stat that combines two simple concepts and treats them exactly equally for no other reason than “hey, addition is easy!”
I know power is fun to watch, but in terms of actually scoring runs, if two players have an equal OPS, but one hits .270/.330/.460 and the other hits .270/.370/.420, the latter is a more valuable hitter. The extra outs the first guy makes do more damage than the value you get from the additional extra base hits. This isn’t just an opinion. It’s backed up by everyone who’s ever studied the issue.
by slamcactus on Oct 12, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So much to adress here. . .
Just a few . . .
There have also been studies (as well as thousands of games of simulated lineups performance) that suggest that a team of say, Daric Barton’s (from last year, excluding his ridiculous defensive valuations) or Brett Garder’s would not score as many runs as thier wOBA’s would show them to. I think there are many offensive situations in which a very good OBP (but with a low slugging pct) guy is the guy you want up but, there are many situations in which a guy who did what Mike Carp or Mark Trumo did last season is the best guy. it’s not as simple as taking that one number to measure it.
As far as OPS, I didn’t even mention it. I said you say his .326 OBP is real and can’t be expected to improve, while you say essentially that his .466 SLG is a mirage. I do not agree with that or, the proportion to which you give them value. I think his OBP is not as bad as you think (as far as value) and that it could improve. I think his slugging could be close to being his true level of ability and even iF it is lower going forward, it is pretty good.
I don’t look at BABIP because I feel that people just use it to explain something they don’t like. For instance, everty time I look it isn’t usually fast guys who have a high number but, guys who hit the ball hard. It also doesn’t take into account that he could lower his Ks. You assume the Ks will stay the same, the walks will stay the same, and that he will get less hits. I do not agree with that. His .343 was also not one of the highest totals in baseball, it was 26th best.
Again, the numbers to me should be a more objective way of looking at something but, in this case, they aren’t. Smoak’s lack of 2010 peformance is explained away and Carps good 2011 performance is explained away just to suit what you believe. I think it is perfectly fair to believe that Smaok will be the better player in the future just based on what you see but, I don’t think it is backed up with any numbers. I don’t think solely having the ability to take a walk makes one guy better than the other. Smoak doesn’t do anything else better, including hit for power.
And . . . he isn’t significantly younger! You keep pointing to age in Smoaks favor but, one guy tuned 25 in June and the other one will in December!
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
There have also been studies (as well as thousands of games of simulated lineups performance) that suggest that a team of say, Daric Barton’s (from last year, excluding his ridiculous defensive valuations) or Brett Garder’s would not score as many runs as thier wOBA’s would show them to.
Link?
I said you say his .326 OBP is real and can’t be expected to improve, while you say essentially that his .466 SLG is a mirage.
I said no such thing. Both of those numbers are dependent on his batting average, which is what I think is due for a regression. If the BA regresses and his secondary skills don’t improve, then both will go down. I never said Carp’s power is a mirage. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
I think his OBP is not as bad as you think (as far as value) and that it could improve.
.326 isn’t good, but that number in itself tells you nothing. A walk rate around 6%, though, is a huge problem, because if he’s not hitting for average he’s a liability.
I don’t look at BABIP because I feel that people just use it to explain something they don’t like. For instance, everty time I look it isn’t usually fast guys who have a high number but, guys who hit the ball hard. It also doesn’t take into account that he could lower his Ks.
You feel a statistic is misused, so you ignore the possibility that it has any value whatsoever? That’s pretty close-minded thinking dude.
More important than the profile of who’s putting up high BABIPs, when you look at guys who have a high number, and then click through to their career stats, how many of them consistently have seasons within 10-20 points of that high number? Of the top-10 guys in the stat this year, the average difference between their 2011 and 2010 BABIPs is a whopping 58 points, and the closest is 26 points. Only 3 of the top 20 guys this year were within 20 points of their 2010 number, and only one of them (Starlin Castro) actually put up back to back seasons where he got hits on balls in play at approximately the same rate.
There’s a little bit of skill there, and a slight correlation with things like line drive rate and power, but there’s always a huge deal of luck involved in the number. It’s something you really need to accept – rate of hits on balls in play is affected by things out of the hitter’s control. It’s not entirely random, but it’s not a direct reflection of skill, especially over small samples.
Which brings me to…
You assume the Ks will stay the same, the walks will stay the same, and that he will get less hits. I do not agree with that. His .343 was also not one of the highest totals in baseball, it was 26th best.
That’s the big difference: K-rate and BB-rate actually do reflect underlying skills relatively accurately, and they stabilize quickly. Research over at statistically speaking showed that K-rate stabilizes around 150 PAs, while walk rate stabilizes around 200.
But you’re right. Carp could make a leap forward in skills. It happens sometimes. He could become a completely different hitter, upping the walks, cutting the K’s, and keeping the power. So could every other player in baseball. There’s no reason to expect him to do it, though. The best information we have is what those skills are right now, and right now, the numbers that tend to be reflective of underlying skills over small samples raise a big red flag.
Again, the numbers to me should be a more objective way of looking at something but, in this case, they aren’t. Smoak’s lack of 2010 peformance is explained away and Carps good 2011 performance is explained away just to suit what you believe. I think it is perfectly fair to believe that Smaok will be the better player in the future just based on what you see but, I don’t think it is backed up with any numbers.
I’m concerned with numbers that are predictive of what will happen in the future, not descriptive of what happened in the past. If the past numbers were as stable as you seem to think, this would be a really boring game.
You talk about looking at numbers objectively, but then basically say “screw your metrics, I don’t buy them.” A BABIP that looks unsustainable? You don’t care, because “hey, maybe he’s the exception who just has that skill!” or “hey, he could just become a way better hitter by lowering his K’s and raising his walks even if he can’t keep getting hits!” A wOBA that makes him a fringe guy even while running that high BABIP? Well then you can ignore that metric, too!
Smoak’s numbers don’t get explained away. I’d be much higher on his future if he had some sustained success. But it’s a huge, huge mistake to put too much weight into fragments of single seasons. Smoak had a bad 2010 and he had an uneven 2011 while dealing with injuries. But again, context is important, and there’s still plenty of reason to think he can be a good hitter. If every player was fated to repeat their stat lines from the year before, this game would be ridiculously boring.
And . . . he isn’t significantly younger! You keep pointing to age in Smoaks favor but, one guy tuned 25 in June and the other one will in December!
Um, you may want to re-read these posts, because I did, and I don’t see where I ever keep pointing to age. I mentioned that his age-23 season fragment shouldn’t be a reason to write him off, but as far as I can tell that’s the only mention of age I’ve made here, and age has nothing to do with why I prefer Smoak. I’d prefer Smoak if the two players had the same birthdate, and it still wouldn’t be close.
by slamcactus on Oct 13, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Carp v Jacobs
Looking at the two, I could see thier power being similar, with Jacobs even having an edge there.
However, just as an example, Carp had a .379 OBP in the FSL when he was 20 and Jacobs had a .291 OBP there when he was 21 – same team, same park, same league.
Carp has a 20 point advantage in OBP in his minor league career and has shown a much more consistent aproach as far as taking pitches than Jacobs has.
I think you are overreacting to Carp’s first large sample of OBP as much as some may be doing the same with his first sample of SLG.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
Again, OBP and SLG aren’t what concern me. It’s the underlying skills that go into them. Carp’s power is fine. But to get to fine, it looks a whole lot like he had to sacrifice his approach and sell out for power, because his K’s spiked and his walks went down.
Carp has a 20 point advantage in OBP in his minor league career and has shown a much more consistent aproach as far as taking pitches than Jacobs has.
Yeah, BB-rate in the minors has nowhere near the predictive value for BB-rate in the majors as actual major league sample sizes do. As I said above, research into it shows that the rates tend to stabilize quickly over small samples. Maybe you’re right and I’m selling Carp’s on-base ability short, but he needs to show me a flash of that skill at the major league level before I’m just going to assume that’s the case.
We are at an impasse
. . . but, shit thats OK :)
You are NOT going to convince me that Mike Carp is as vicious, and incorrigble of a hacker as you think he is . . . no matter how predictive you think his sample size is. I do not believe you! I know what a hacker like Wily Mo Pena, or Wlad Balentien, etc, etc look like and Carp ain’t it. He has sold out some for power, in the short term, to establish himself in the big leagues! You cannot see that he was going nowhere as a guy with a good eye, and below average power? It is you who are not looking at context there. Everything about his past performane indicates a guy who will BB more and K less . . . to me anyways.
Just admit that you are as closed minded about that as I am anout BABIP!
It’s all horseshit and excuses anyways. Justin Smoak doesn’t even get on base as much as Mike Carp does! Smoak’s terrible big league ab’s at age 23 are not really young, developmentally speaking. It’s comical that we went this far with this . . . though I enjoy almost any baseball argument to be honest . . . I will remember when you turn out to be right. I really hope so, to be honest. I really like Smoak. He seems like a nice kid and has some nice skills. I’m just tired of all the reasons why he doesn’t produce, and you don’t have re-hash them. I also think it is selfish to play when you are not helping the team and are injured. At some point “because he isn’t that good” will have to enter consideration maybe?
I’m sorry I lack your vision but, Carp is actually getting something done. I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
Reading your posts makes my head hurt
I stand in awe of slamcactus’ patience with you. You are like a self caricature.
by dnc on Oct 14, 2011 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good to see your words around though. How have you been?
Good to be back! I’ve been great. Just got back from a 2-month honeymoon to Australia and New Zealand. Thanks for asking!
good to hear!
Wow, I need one of those . . . daydream.
At least I have Arizona to look forward to in early March – can’t wait. I love spring training!
" I too love everthing that flows: rivers, sewers, lava, blood, bile, words, sentences . ." - Henry Miller
The guy who I found myself frequently stacking Carp up against this year
And granted this was largely for fantasy purposes in terms of who I should keep/drop, the analysis is just as relevant for IRL situations, was Lucas Duda. It was right around the beginning of September when I really started looking at both players head to head—they were putting up similar roto stats as 1B/OF eligible players but I needed to figure out who I would rely on more heavily (I wound up holding onto both, but I thought long and hard about which I’d rather keep if it came to it and who I would rather start if the choice was between the two). At that point, they’d both been essentially seeing every day playing time for about a month and a half, had been getting on base, hitting for average, hitting for power, etc. As they both came up largely in the Mets system, they played in a lot of similar offensive environments early in their minor league careers. Heading into September, Carp’s surface numbers looked a bit better if anything—he’d hit more HR in fewer PAs and was hitting for a higher average, but the deeper I looked, the more I convinced myself to rely on Duda going into September, as he had the edge by virtually every predictive measure. He swung and missed less and walked more—both trends that he had the advantage in during his minor league career as well, and while it took him longer to figure out hitting for power, he’d been on basically a 2.5 year run of solid power hitting as well. His BABIP was also more reasonable. My conclusion was that the two were likely to wind up with fairly similar final season lines, but that Carp would get there by hitting some major regression in September while Duda was likely to continue producing at a similar level, making Duda the better “set and forget” September play. As it turned out, I may have underestimated Carp’s regression, though he likely did have some bad luck in September (.264 BABIP) to make it look worse than it was, but Duda’s final season line turned out considerably better than Carp’s and on the whole looked far less “lucky” overall.
Carp’s biggest problem that I see is his prodigious tendency to swing-and-miss, which plays into both his diminished walk rate and difficulty putting the ball in play. His 13.1 SwStrike% was 12th in the majors among players with at least 300 PAs. There are some players who can get away with a mark like this and remain productive, but almost all have true 70-80 power. You have all or nothing sluggers (Mike Stanton, Mark Reynolds, Carlos Pena, Adam Dunn) and even most of the more well rounded seeming players who get away with it have elite power bats as well (Josh Hamilton, Nelson Cruz, Ryan Howard). Carp has good power, but not 70 or 80 power like these guys. Otherwise you have some pretty mediocre offensive performers (Miguel Olivo, Chris Heisey, Matt LaPorta, Rick Ankiel, Alfonso Soriano, Aaron Rowand). Its just too easy for major league pitchers to exploit a guy who swings and misses so much, so unless they absolutely crush almost every mistake they see, its very difficult to remain productive at this level.
I see five exceptions to this rule among the 27 players who had SwStrike%’s higher than 12% and at least 300 PAs—Matt Kemp, Corey Hart, Adam Jones, Dan Uggla, and Cameron Maybin (its also worth noting that each of these guys had a lower SwStrike% than Carp, though they were in the same basic territory).
Kemp had an unsustainable career high .380 BABIP, hit a career high 39 HR, had career high 10.7% walk rate by a healthy margin, and has plus speed. Easily the most productive 12%+ SwStrike season for any player in 2011, but also obviously not a good comp for Carp. He does everything else better than Carp and his BABIP is likely just as fluky (he’s a high BABIP guy in general, but .380 would be a historical mark if it could be sustained for a long period of time).
Hart is interesting. His BABIP was a bit high at .323, but not absurd for his career .312 mark. It seems like he managed by swinging at a below average number of pitches outside the zone (His O-Swing% was solidly below the average at 27.3%) which is unusual for a hitter with contact issues like this and not really a strength of Carp’s (35.1%, well above the average). It helped Hart keep his K% from ballooning to much (20.7%, higher than average but respectable) and maintain a solid walk rate. Throw in his average speed with his above average power and BABIP and you have perhaps the most well rounded looking player among these “hackers” that doesn’t have 70+ power (or have an elite power season the way Kemp did). This is probably the model Carp needs to try and follow—if he dropped his O-Swing% to even average he could become a fairly similar hitter to Hart and might even get his SwStrike% and BB% to a more respectable place.
Another interesting case is Adam Jones, who doesn’t walk at all (less than Carp did). Jones somehow managed the feat by posting a respectable 18.3% strikeout rate, which was actually just a touch above the MLB average (and he does this fairly consistently). This is incredibly unusual, and I’d interpret it to mean that a) his contact ability is better than the plate discipline marks bear out, but he swings for the fences early in counts and shortens up later, and b) that his approach probably isn’t correctly tapping his hitting ability and full potential. He also has decent speed. Carp does none of this, so this comp doesn’t really apply, but its interesting.
Finally, Uggla probably doesn’t quite have 70 level power, but he does have excellent power and also posts consistently excellent walk rates. Its well documented how his contact issues and fluctuating BABIPs are often the difference between his decent and his borderline spectacular seasons. His O-Swing% is pretty similar to Hart’s, so this is probably about Carp’s ceiling as a hitter if he can improve in that department but he continues to swing and miss a lot. The positional difference is relevant, but Uggla’s bat would play pretty well at 1B or in a COF spot, it would just mean Carp’s seasons fluctuate between average and very good rather than very good to near elite.
Maybin got away with it by posting a .332 BABIP, which is essentially right in line with his career .331 mark and easily explained by his elite speed and extreme ground ball tendency (GBs turn into hits in play more frequently than fly balls). He rated an 8.3 by Bill James’ speed score, tied for 3rd in the majors (with Brett Gardner) among players with at least 300 PAs behind only Rajai Davis and Jose Reyes.
Aside from Jones, there’s a pretty common theme—no one in 2011 got away with such contact issues the way Carp did unless they had elite power, elite speed, or an above average walk rate (or some combination of the three), and even Jones did it by somehow managing an above average K%.
None of this is to say Carp can’t be an above average hitter, more that despite his solid performance his true talent is pretty modest right now and that his performance in 2011 was likely a bit better than we should expect moving forward unless he finds a way to substantially improve. He needs to learn to shrink his zone a bit, particularly on offspeed pitches. His minor league walk rates were impressive for the most part, but might be a bit misleading. In the low minors with the Mets he likely didn’t have to face quality offspeed offerings, but by the time he reached Triple-A he had the advantage of the PCL, where his power played to monstrous proportions in 2010 and 2011 and his walk rate dipped more into merely average to slightly above territory. Getting back to Duda, you can see the contrast, he had walk rates over 10% every step of the way, even when his power really blossomed and blossomed in much more difficult hitting environments. If I had a choice between the two moving forward, mine would be Duda. He seems like a pretty safe bet to be an average to above average major league hitter, while Carp’s projection seems far more volatile and without any significant additional ceiling.
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Oct 22, 2011 4:38 PM EDT reply actions
Also
Just wanted to add—I noticed the LD% argument up there somewhere, and while its true that LD% and BABIP tend to have a strong correlation, the problem is that LD% isn’t really any more predictive than BABIP. They correlate to each other, but not so much to future performance. GB% and FB% tend to both be more stable, especially in proportion to each other, with LD% tending to fluctuate fairly largely in between the two. This makes sense intuitively, the difference between a LD and another batted ball type is a matter of inches, but both GB and FB tendencies have a much larger margin for error based on swing mechanics—guys who uppercut and/or use their lower half more tend to generate loft and backspin while guys who are more top-hand heavy or handsy with their swings in general tend to get on top of the ball more and generate topspin. Either one of these approaches will lead to some line drives, but there’s much less hitters can do mechanically to gear their approach towards line drives (not nothing, mind you, just less).
"All energy flows according to the whims of the great magnet
What a fool I was to defy him"
-HST
by Mark Himmelstein on Oct 22, 2011 4:44 PM EDT reply actions

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