Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: The Skip Shot: For Water Polo Fans!

Atlanta Braves Top 20 Prospects for 2012

Arodys Vizcaino of the Atlanta Braves. (Photo by Scott Cunningham/Getty Images)

Atlanta Braves Top 20 Prospects for 2012

THIS LIST WAS REVISED JANUARY 11, 2012

The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Comments are welcome, but in the end all analysis and responsibility is mine of course. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!

Star-divide


QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:

Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.

Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.

Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don't make it at all.

A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters. Many Grade A pitching prospects fail to develop, often due to injuries. Some Grade C pitching prospects turn out much better than expected.

Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise coming from me, and some C+ prospects turn out very well indeed.

Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment in the book for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.

1) Julio Teheran, RHP, Grade A: He's getting nitpicked by some people, and while he needs to sharpen his breaking ball, I can't see how he is anything less than an elite prospect considering how well he pitched in Triple-A at age 20.

2) Arodys Vizcaino, RHP, Grade B+: Another elite arm, he just needs to dispel any final concerns about his durability. Projects as a number two starter for me.

3) Randall Delgado, RHP, Grade B+: His ERA in the majors was a bit misleading and he could probably use some Triple-A time, but another elite prospect projecting as a number two starter if all goes well.

4) Andrelton Simmons, SS, Grade B: I really like his glove, and while he won't be a big home run guy, I believe in the bat enough to give him an aggressive grade. I expect this ranking will be higher than where most people have him, but I'm good with that.

5) Sean Gilmartin, LHP, Grade B: Very polished pitcher from 2011 draft, first round pick from Florida State, doesn't have upside of the guys above him, but won't need much time in the minors. Personal favorite.

6) Edward Salcedo, 3B, Grade B: Tough to grade. He's still quite raw, but he has the highest offensive upside of anyone on the system and made progress cutting down his strikeouts. Defense is very raw, may end up in outfield.

7) J.J. Hoover, RHP, Grade B-: Borderline B. He's been a favorite of mine for three years. I think he would be a very good number three/four starter, but they seem to prefer him in the bullpen.

8) Tyler Pastornicky, SS, Grade B-: Will he hit enough to be a regular? Perhaps. An excellent utility player at worst, and his polish makes his tools play up.

9) Zeke Spruill, RHP, Grade B-: A nice rebound season gets him back in the picture as a possible number three starter down the line, although slippage in K/IP ratio after Double-A promotion warns he needs more time and could struggle again if rushed.

10) Christian Bethancourt, C, Grade B-: Pushed by the media machine. Very young, excellent defensive tools, bat remains questionable for me and he is still quite raw. This is a ranking that Braves fans are going to complain about, but I'm going to buck consensus on this one. He is still more hype and projection than performance, on both offense and defense, all of my instincts are warning me against going with the crowd.

11) J.R. Graham, RHP, Grade B-: Electric arm out of Santa Clara, progress of secondary pitches will determine if he starts or relieves at higher levels. Stock could be much higher next year.

12) Matt Lipka, OF-SS, Grade B-: Athleticism is impressive and he is very young, but he didn't hit well in the Sally League and the projected move to the outfield increases the pressure on his bat. Stock could go way up. . .or way down in 2012.

13) Brandon Drury, 3B, Grade B-: Braves propaganda is pushing this guy hard and I'm sure this ranking will also be controversial, but six walks in 265 at-bats is just unacceptably low for me. Mitigating factors include youth, sound swing, and low strikeout rate, but I want more data before buying into the hype.

14) Tommy La Stella, 2B, Grade B-: Outstanding performance in pro debut after successful career at Coastal Carolina. May not stick at second base, but I believe in the bat and he would be an impressive prospect even if he moves to the outfield. Combination of power and low strikeout rate stands out.

15) Joe Terdoslavich, 1B, Grade B-: I think his power is real, but has less defensive value than the guys ahead of him and that hurts his grade a bit. You can make a case to rank him as high as seven on this list.

16) Carlos Perez, LHP, Grade B-: Borderline C+. Tough grade, has a live arm but command problems and very erratic performance in Sally League make higher ranking impossible at this time.

17) Adam Milligan, OF, Grade C+: He can hit, but he can't stay away from the doctors. Strikes out a lot which may make batting average tough to replicate against better pitching.

18) Todd Cunningham, OF, Grade C+: Didn't hit as well as anticipated, but still has time to live up to draft pedigree, although like Ahmed I see him more as a steady role player than a star.

19) Billy Bullock, RHP, Grade C+: Has the stuff to succeed in bullpen quickly if he throws strikes.

20) Kyle Kubitza, 3B, Grade C+: Solid line drive bat with good discipline, but wasn't able to bring college power to pro ball.

21) Cody Martin, RHP, Grade C+: Relief sleeper from 2011 draft has stuff and command to move through system rapidly.

OTHERS: Nick Ahmed, INF; Yeliar Castro, RHP; Matt Chaffee, LHP; Jaye Chapman, RHP; Erik Cordier, RHP; Dimasther Delgado, LHP; Evan Gattis, C; Cory Gearrin, RHP; Mauro Gomez, 1B; Phil Gosselin, 2B; David Hale, RHP; Cory Harrilchak, OF; Brandon Hicks, INF; Mycal Jones, OF; Mark Lamm, RHP; Joe Leonard, 3B; Chris Masters, LHP; Navery Moore, RHP; Aaron Northcraft, RHP; Todd Redmond, RHP; Gus Schlosser, RHP; Anthony Varvaro, RHP.


There are some non-consensus rankings here, namely being aggressive with Simmons and conservative with Bethancourt. But it would be boring if I just agreed with everyone else, wouldn't it?

As usual, the pitching is rich in this system, with three potential rotation anchors in Teheran, Vizcaino, and Delgado. Gilmartin, Hoover, and Spruill are also capable of becoming solid major league starting pitchers, although it looks like Hoover will end up in relief, at least in the short run.

The system is much thinner in hitting, with all of the position player prospects having at least one significant question. . .will Simmons have enough power? Will Salcedo put his tools to use consistently? Will Pastornicky and Lipka hit enough to play regularly? How does Terdoslavich fit into the lineup? Where does La Stella end up? Can Drury maintain his batting average against better pitching given his hyper-aggressiveness?

Comment 99 comments  |  1 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Really like Navery Moore, and hear Cody Martin is a sleeper than could end up really really good.

Some teams specialize in producing corner guys, some maybe catchers, some relief pitchers.

The Braves continue to produce big profile arms and have a load of depth on the left-side of the infield.
(Tommy Hanson had a tough year in ’11 though, Mike Minor yet to catch on)

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 12, 2011 12:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Evan Gattis

Can you say anything about him? He’s a pretty unusual sort of prospect.

by Mac T on Oct 12, 2011 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

gattis

Very unusual, yeah. The bat looks very itneresting despite the age/league issue, but his defense is pretty rough from what I hear.

by John Sickels on Oct 12, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Looks good

Only real quibble I’d have is with Salcedo, who I’d probably drop to the middle of the B- group.

On Drury you mention the Braves propaganda pushing him hard, but the BA Appy League rankings mentioned him being the player most often brought up unsolicited by scouts. Is the Braves reputation such in the scouting community that they can bias scouts? This isn’t meant to be condescending…serious question.

by nixa37 on Oct 12, 2011 1:01 PM EDT reply actions  

theory

That gets into sociological theory, lol. Can I prove that empirically? No.

by John Sickels on Oct 12, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can Terdoslavich play the outfield?

I mean, I know not well, but can he play it at all? First base looks occupied.

by Mac T on Oct 12, 2011 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

Love Simmons

Even if he can hit an empty .280, that’s an easy above-average regular. If his lower half stays injury-free, this guy’s a stud.

Founder and Chairman of the Send Dan Some Pizzeria Bianco Commission. A totally, definitely for-profit organization.

Today, our Executive Chef Josh Collmenter is featuring a special of delicately braised crow served over-the-top (get it?!?!) of a side of lightly roasted NLDS victory and topped with a delicious starting rotation cream sauce.

by Dan Strittmatter on Oct 12, 2011 1:38 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

so if he ends up hitting

280/330/370 with +5 runs on defense at SS……

how much is that worth?

by blue bulldog on Oct 13, 2011 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

damn

that’s pretty legit

being able to stick at SS and being plus defensively there is a huge boon to your value….

it’s always a little scary to me when a prospect’s offensive value might be entirely contingent on his batting average……

though i guess looking through players in the majors right now, if he can even end up as a 250/300/350 guy (so like, Ian Desmond) with +5 on defense at SS, that’s like 2-2.5 WAR, which is still really valuable

by blue bulldog on Oct 14, 2011 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Whats the scouting report on Simmons?

Im not to familiar with him

Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic

by mathisrocks5 on Oct 12, 2011 1:43 PM EDT reply actions  

present plus ML glove (at least) at SS, good feel for hitting and can hit for average, little power at present, but rail thin

Was also rated as a high-round prospect at RHP due to his arm strength, with a fastball topping out at 98 mph.

He was considered a bit raw with the bat when drafted, but he’s developing well ahead of expectations.

by mrkupe on Oct 12, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

sounds like Elvis Andrus?

Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic

by mathisrocks5 on Oct 12, 2011 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

something like that, I guess

Strong contact hitter with a great glove at short, that works okay. One thing to watch is that, as I mentioned, Simmons is one skinny but athletic dude at this point. He’s also still raw for his age . . .it’s very possible that with more experience and a few more pounds (which shouldn’t diminish his defensive prowess), he’s going to add a little more power to his game to round out his skillset.

I’m enjoying seeing the love that he’s getting this post-season, first from BA and now from John. He has the potential to be an extremely valuable player.

by mrkupe on Oct 12, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

that was my point

That’s a pretty lean dude, especially for being 21 this year. I’m not expecting (or hoping for) him to get too much bigger, but a little bit extra lean weight will probably do wonders for him.

by mrkupe on Oct 12, 2011 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

just add wings.

Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?

by ryan c on Oct 12, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Personal favorite, Evan Gattis, left off. He has such a great story. While I understand the reasoning, it doesn’t mean I can’t be disappointed. A .986 OPS is hard to look over, no matter the age. Hopefully he’ll be another non-prospect like Beachy that proves many wrong.

I agree with Mac. J-Terd needs to learn a new position quickly.

5 of these prospects will probably graduate in 2012 (Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado, Hoover, Pastornicky) with a few others, if successful, receiving late cups of coffee (Bullock, J-Terd). Unless there are a plethora of prospects to step up in 2012, the Braves Minor League System will look a bit sluggish in 2013.

Just Beachy here. How 'bout you?

by ryan c on Oct 12, 2011 1:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Wow, and I thought “Terdo” was an unfortunate tag to throw on the guy!

by realitypolice on Oct 12, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've been calling him the Terdman.

Not sure how many others have been doing the same.

by auclairkeithbc on Oct 12, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comps.

how accurate are the comparisons between Sean Gilmartin and Mike Minor?

by James Westfall on Oct 12, 2011 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

also, who do you guys like better

Gilmartin or Tyler Anderson from the Rockies?

Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic

by mathisrocks5 on Oct 12, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well coming out of college they are similar. Minor added velo once he got to the minors

Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic

by mathisrocks5 on Oct 12, 2011 1:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

John had Minor at a B- in 2010 then an A- in 2011. Comparatively he has Gilmartin at a B after less than 25 innings of pro ball. so it sounds like they are pretty close.

by James Westfall on Oct 12, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Minor's final grade was a B+ last year

It was dropped between the preliminary list and the publication of the final list.

by nixa37 on Oct 12, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

well played

that just strengthens my point then that john has Gilmartin at a B with barely a sniff of Pro data and with about 2 seasons of minor league play Minor only got up to a B+. sounds like Gilmartin is going to be a B+ if he has a strong season this year with grade A potential in the future, something John never gave Mike Minor. my point being Gilmartin could be better than Mionr who is already a top 15 pitching prospect.

The Braves are blessed.

by James Westfall on Oct 12, 2011 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

similarties

i was looking for a comp between the two to see if people viewed gilmartin’s skill set as similar to mike minor’s and because they are both 1.) left handed, 2.) hard throwing, 3.) Atlanta braves prospects, 4.) who are similar in age, 5.) both 1st round picks, etc to see if an “expert” or a collection of others felt like gilmartin projects to be a similar pitcher or has equal or greater potential.

basically who is more projectable given they have similar tools. (i also have a dynasty draft coming up and if i can get a guy like gilmartin who could be a mike minor clone i want to do that.)

by James Westfall on Oct 12, 2011 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

2.) hard throwing

 I wouldn’t characterize Gilmartin as “hard throwing.” Not even for a lefty, really.

by alskor on Oct 12, 2011 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

good point

i guess i would have to agree that “hard throwing” might have been a little too bold at this point, but Minor added a few ticks once he got into pro ball and gilmartin might do the same. (although Minor has a bigger frame.)

by James Westfall on Oct 13, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its possible.

Physically, Gilmartin looks like more of a finished product than Minor did to me. I would also say that Minor’s velo jump was rather rare and a large part of his increased profile. Every ballplayer is an individual… I certainly wouldn’t count on Gilmartin throwing harder.

by alskor on Oct 13, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

"Minor’s velo jump was rather rare"

Yes. Counting on that to happen again is pretty optimistic. OTOH, Minor’s FB has come back down to earth a bit to sit low-90s according to pitch data.

And I think Al’s point about Gilmartin’s looking finished is a good point. I don’t see a ton of aditional projection with him and he’s got a different build than Minor. Gilmartin is well put together, but Minor is a sturdier guy, especially through the trunk and legs.

by blackoutyears on Oct 14, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

They're not going up against each other and these aren't final grades

I don’t like Gilmartin nearly as much as I did Minor, but that’s just me.

by nixa37 on Oct 12, 2011 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

well

they’re both White and left-handed

by JoelGuzman'sScout on Oct 14, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

What more is needed?

Cole Hamels & Joe Saunders are virtual dopplegangers to me.

by Matt0330 on Oct 14, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks, John.

Seriously, these are the lists I most eagerly await. I have great respect for your opinions and effort to gather information on these guys.

by parish on Oct 12, 2011 1:48 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

+1

Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic

by mathisrocks5 on Oct 12, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic

by mathisrocks5 on Oct 12, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only thing I like better than John Sickels is sweet tea.

Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.

by bwellnjonesco on Oct 12, 2011 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

what if...

john was drinking sweet tea while writing his prospects lists and if you bought the book and it came with a free sweet tea?

by James Westfall on Oct 12, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Uh Oh

Drury is not in the Top 10.

Sorry John, but JoelGuzman’sScout will be here soon to call something (you? this list?) asinine.

by None Taken on Oct 12, 2011 1:55 PM EDT reply actions  

huh

i did that once and now it’s a part of my character?

perhaps you should reread the definition of pattern and then get back.

also, why on Earth would you bring my name up? you all up on my jock like that?

flattery will get you everywhere.

by JoelGuzman'sScout on Oct 14, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bethancourt

I wouldn’t have had an objection with a C+ grade. He showed some moderate improvement this year, but definitely not enough to merit a jump to a straight B. At least in my opinion, anyway.

by ajake57 on Oct 12, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Compare him to Salcedo though

Bethancourt is 2 months younger, plays a more important defensive position, and posted better numbers than Salcedo at Rome. Sure Bethancourt struggled once he was pushed to high-A, but I don’t think that should be held against him too much. Not saying that Bethancourt deserves a B though, as I mentioned that I think Salcedo deserves a B- as well. I’d still probably rank Bethancourt higher at this point though.

by nixa37 on Oct 12, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get a real whiff of Boscan off of him

Stats in the low minors are broadly similar, and Boscan really was supposed to be some sort of great prospect when he signed (at 16). Now look at him.

by Mac T on Oct 12, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Compare their SAL performance

Boscan posted a .226/.278/.304 his first go round at 19 and a .205/.311/.334 when he repeated the league the next year. Bethancourt posted a .251/.276/.331 as an 18 year old and then posted a .303/.323/.430 when he was repeating it this year. So Bethancourt performed at a better level at a younger age in the league. Throw in the fact that Bethancourt has a better arm (I don’t think anyone was throwing 80 grades on Boscan’s arm) and is far more athletic and I think you can see the difference.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Bethancourt is a great prospect or anything, but he’s clearly shown flashes so far (which Boscan never really did) and he has a very high ceiling.

by nixa37 on Oct 12, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I compare them

I see a huge gap in their current power and their power potential in favor of Salcedo and I am far more confident in Salcedo’s ability to refine his strikzone judgment. I think the offensive upside Salcedo posseses merits a B grade, whereas Bethancourt needs to show me a more well-rounded offensive package before his defensive superiority makes him a better all-around prospect.

by ajake57 on Oct 13, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Even if you think Salcedo is better, do you really think he's two grades better?

I’m also not quite sure why you think Salcedo has some huge advantage in potential power. As Mike Newman noted in his piece on fangraphs yesterday about Salcedo, he doesn’t really have the explosion in his wrists to project easy power and his upside offensively is more along the lines of Edward Encarnacion, which is more along the lines of 20-25 HR power. Its not like Salcedo has a much more projectable body or anything. Salcedo checks in around 6’3", while Bethancourt is 6’2", and both have similar wiry, strong builds. And as Mike mentioned, Bethancourt is in fact the prospect with the higher ceiling, so if Salcedo’s upside merits a B, then why doesn’t Bethancourt’s (like I said, I don’t think either merits a B).

Completely serious question, would Bethancourt rank higher for you if the Braves had just left him in Rome all year and let him continue to hit relatively well, would you rank him higher? It just seems like you’re probably holding an aggressive promotion and the resulting struggles against him. I mean sure it would be great if he walked an acceptable amount, but a 3.4% BB rate from a catcher is acceptable if he’s good defensively and strikes out as little as Bethancourt did at Rome. And if he doesn’t figure out a way to be more patient at the plate, it would likely do wonders for his power production as he wouldn’t be trying to hit so many pitcher’s pitches.

by nixa37 on Oct 13, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

One grade better.

But who’s counting.

I acutally would have given them both the same grade, but I think more highly of Bethancourt than John does. I still ranked Salcedo above Bethancourt but understand the argument for the catcher.

by parish on Oct 13, 2011 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I said that

I was merely replying to John’s comment, “This is a ranking that Braves fans are going to complain about,” because I agree with him. I wasn’t advocating a C+, I just wouldn’t argue against it.

by ajake57 on Oct 13, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just don't see how you can think a C+ would be acceptable for Bethancourt

While simultaneously believing that Salcedo merits a solid B. You make the argument for Salcedo based on upside, but Bethancourt in all likelihood has more upside.

by nixa37 on Oct 13, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Completely serious response

Yes, I would have. A 3.4% BB rate may be acceptable for you at the Major League Level, but it’s not acceptable from a prospect if you’re looking for someone who has the potential to reach their ceiling. I am seriously not even looking at his numbers in A+. Over the last two full seasons Bethancourt has walked 25 times in 830 plate appearances. That’s enough of a sample size to give me cause for concern about his ability to command the strike zone. Once he starts seeing pitchers who have the ability to hit their spots and repeat plus breaking stuff, I think his batting average and his ISO will significantly drop unless he sorts that out.

by ajake57 on Oct 13, 2011 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Salcedo's batting average and ISO will likely drop too if he doesn't improve

Minor leaguers have to improve if they want to make the majors. That’s just how it works. Mostly disregarding a guy based on BB%, while simultaneously ignoring a very low K rate isn’t necessarily a good idea. The two work hand in hand. If he were to be more passive at the plate and look to work counts, he’d end up walking more than he currently does, but striking out as well. If anything I trust him more moving up because in the low minors simply being passive can buy you walks. It doesn’t prove you have a good eye. Its also important to note that Mike Newman specifically mentioned Salcedo’s inability to pick up breaking balls. The same may be true of Bethancourt, but at least he seems to have no trouble putting them in play based on his low K rate.

by nixa37 on Oct 13, 2011 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you trying to pick a fight with me?

Because that’s the second time you’ve jumped to a conclusion about what I’m considering here. I would appreciate it if you did not assume I wasn’t considering all of the facts.

I do agree with you that the two go hand in hand. So when I see Bethancourt’s nearly 6:1 K:BB ratio, I am decidedly unimpressed. The fact that he struck out just 15.1% of the time this year is nice, but that doesn’t mean that he’s going to learn to control the strikezone by being more passive.

Salcedo struck out in 18.6% of his plate appearances this year. Which is obviously worse, but it’s not a terrible figure, and it’s really not a whole lot worse than Bethancourt’s. It was also his first year in full-season ball and a notable improvement from 26.8% he posted in the same league last year (albeit with a SSS). Bethancourt’s K rate and BB rate were both pretty similar to last season. Salcedo also had a far more impressive (or less worrisome, depending on how you view these things) K:BB ratio at 5:2. So what I see here is a vital statistic for gauging future performance (K rate) that Salcedo is improving in, and Bethancourt is maintaining in.

But with that all considered, that wasn’t even the point of my previous post. I tend to be in the camp of people who believe that hitters who will succeed at the highest level can learn how to do things like pick up breaking balls. So while this may be a problem for Salcedo, I’m more inclined to think that he has more of an ability to adapt to that than Bethancourt (should he have a similar problem). To be a good hitter you do not need to put the ball in play. You need to put the ball in play with authority. When I look at their numbers side by side, Salcedo’s numbers tell me that he does a better job of getting the good part of the bat on the ball more frequently than Bethancourt, and that’s why I like him more.

And for the record, I also wouldn’t have objected with Salcedo being a B-, either. He obviously still has a lot of work to do offensively and, quite frankly, he’s not a very good defender right now. However, with the information that is available to me, I see more to make me believe that he has a better chance of being an above average Major League Baseball player than Bethancourt. You can quote Mike Newman all you want, it’s not going to change my opinion. Also, for the record, I happen to like Bethancourt quite a bit, I just don’t think he’s better than a B- propspect right now. But he’s a catcher, and they have some strange career trajectories. By next season he might be the best prospect we’ve ever seen, who knows? I’m just not going to commit to it until I actually see some more positive results.

by ajake57 on Oct 13, 2011 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

What conclusion did I jump to? You ignored his K rate in the first post...

Going through paragraph by paragraph:

1. The 6:1 number you quote isn’t necessarily fair as Bethancourt’s promotion to the Carolina League was clearly quite aggressive. While in Rome from 2010-2011 (where he was still young for the league) he posted a more manageable 4:1 K:BB ratio, that was down below 3.5:1 this year. He struck out just 11.5% of the time at Rome this year. That would have ranked him 5th in the league for lowest K rate if he had enough PA to qualify and two of the guys ahead of him were significantly older.

2. Salcedo’s K rate while at the same level was significantly worse than Bethancourt’s. Its not really fair to hold Bethancourt’s Lynchburg struggles against him since the Braves seemingly didn’t even think Salcedo was ready to make the jump to Lynchburg despite a solid first half. Its also not Salcedo’s first season of full-season ball as he played quite a bit at Rome last year (though admittedly only half as much as Bethancourt). As for Salcedo improving his K rate while Bethancourt maintained, that’s not really true. Just comparing what they did at Rome, Salcedo’s K rate was 70% of last year’s rate, while Bethancourt’s was 78%. Salcedo’s improvement looks much bigger because he started so much higher, but Bethancourt’s improvement from 14.8% to 11.5% isn’t that much less impressive than Salcedo’s improvement from 26.8% to 18.6% on a percentage basis.

3. What about Salcedo’s numbers make you think he does a better job getting the good part of the bat on the ball. Bethancourt posted a similar ISO at Rome (.126 to .147) and has proven himself much better thus far in terms of BABIP (.323 in Rome and .328 in Lynchburg compared to .289 for Salcedo). The fact that he can do those things with a low K rate is quite promising if he can just refine his approach and stop putting pitcher’s pitches into play.

4. Fair enough, but just a few posts ago you were saying Salcedo deserved a B because of his upside, but in all likelihood Bethancourt is the one with the higher upside. I also think its important to keep in mind that the Braves thought Bethancourt was ready for a promotion to Lynchburg, but they didn’t seem to think Salcedo was ready. I don’t necessarily disagree with you that Salcedo has a better chance to be an above average player (though I think the chances for Salcedo are much smaller than you seem to think), but I do think that part is interesting.

by nixa37 on Oct 13, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't ignore it.

I simply didn’t bring it up because you specifically mentioned his walk rate, while referencing his K rate. I addressed the walk rate because I feel like it’s more important. I did not address the K rate because I agreed with you that it is pretty good.

I also don’t think it’s wise to completely dismiss Bethancourt’s performance at Lynchburg. Obviously, take it with a grain of salt, but you’re plainly leaving it out of all your stats. A player is his complete body of work, not the happy samples we choose to select. It’s entirely possible that his numbers would have tailed off in the second half in Rome, just as Salcedo’s did (though not in regards to his K rate). I’m not suggesting that it necessarily would have, I’m just saying we shouldn’t summarily dismiss a half-season’s worth of stats because it was an agressive promotion.

Salcedo’s numbers look better to me because he posted the higher ISO with a lower BABIP. One thing that really annoys me about BABIP, and I’m not accusing you of this, is how people don’t seem to also address batted ball types and degree of contact along with it.

This is a theory that I have been mulling over. When I see a large gap between a player’s BABIP (high) and his ISO (low) it tells me that he’s having success, but he’s not driving the ball with much consistancy. When I see a smaller gap it tells me that, while he may be making poorer contact across the board, he has a better knack for squaring the ball up and hitting it hard. Obviously a lot goes into where a player’s BABIP and ISO are and what their other attributes are (strength and speed for example). I wouldn’t think a guy with a .200 ISO is all that and a bag of chips if his BABIP is .205, but it’s just an idea I have.

I could be completely wrong about this, but the way all of the numbers combine for Salcedo, I just get a good feeling about it. In my opinion, the improvement he’s shown and his upside are both more substantial than Bethancourt’s. Now, if Bethancourt could show me the improvement he showed in Rome over the course of a full season, regardless of promotion, that would convince me that his offensive potential is possibly higher than Salcedo’s.

I do agree with you, Bethancourt’s promotion and Salcedo’s lack of a promotion are interesting. But as I have zero knowledge as to why those decisions were made, I can’t really consider it much more than to say just that.

by ajake57 on Oct 13, 2011 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

and when i say more important

i mean in bethancourt’s case his, low BB rate stands out to me in evaluating him more than his low K rate. I’m not saying that BB on a whole is more important.

by ajake57 on Oct 13, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lots of really aggressive grades

I like it, but it is a little surprising to see so many B- types.

by auclairkeithbc on Oct 12, 2011 2:44 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

more B- players than I was expecting – I probably would have Lipka through Perez as C+.

by cookiedabookie on Oct 12, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

IMO

I think they would both fit in above Spruill.

Juan Abreu could fit above Bullock, but would probably be among the OTHERS.

Daffy Duck goes to bed at 10:00 every night, except on New Year's Eve, he goes to bed at 8:30.

by bwellnjonesco on Oct 12, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Simmons

LOVE the Simmons ranking

by sunking1056 on Oct 12, 2011 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

It's Cory Gearrin

For the record (or book), it’s Cory and not Cody.

by parish on Oct 12, 2011 4:13 PM EDT reply actions  

book

It’s right in the book. Just a typo here.

by John Sickels on Oct 12, 2011 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pastornicky

b4 this year, was he really on any1s radar?

by Noah McKinnie Braun on Oct 12, 2011 7:55 PM EDT reply actions  

i think he was in the top 15 for Baseball America

Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN

by Nnamdi Asomugha on Oct 12, 2011 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should have been

He hit very well at AA last year after the trade. At his age, that was worth noticing.

When he followed it up with the 2011 campaign, he gained more attention. Hard to fake it for a year and a half.

by parish on Oct 13, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

He hit well in AA last year?

Not sure that’s how I’d describe a .256/.336/.368 line. It was acceptable given his age and position, but I don’t think I’d be quite as kind in my description as you are.

by nixa37 on Oct 13, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah he was never a “good” hitter b4 last year

by Noah McKinnie Braun on Oct 13, 2011 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

yes

I’ve been watching him since his full season debut, and he’s gotten some talk here over the past few years as a possible utility/okay starter type. It’s starting to pick up now because he’s held his own at AA.

by mrkupe on Oct 13, 2011 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am good friends with a person high up in the Braves minor league system...What he tells me usually pans out, so here goes:

“Pastornicky, there is nothing special about him.”
Simmons seems to be a nobody to everybody except Sickels (even though I agree with him). I’ve been watching him for a year now and I keep hearing the same things about his arm and the possibility that he might become a pitcher.. The guy may not hit with poiwer, but he seldom strikes out. Good “D” and a contact hitter, sounds like a good combination to me. Remember, the Braves didn’t start that long string of playoff appearances until they got Raffy B. He, Blauser and Lemke gave the Bravos a strong up the middle presence. I just hope Simmons isn’t trade bait.

by SLSmi on Oct 14, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know of anybody who has called or would call Pastornicky "special"

I think it is abundantly clear that if he makes it, it’s as a utility player or a passable starter. That doesn’t mean he can’t be a useful asset.

by mrkupe on Oct 14, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah he wont b a star but i’d expect him to get a shot at the starting SS job next year

by Noah McKinnie Braun on Oct 16, 2011 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

A nobody?

I think we are in the process of finding out that Simmons is not a nobody. It’s hard to see that D and that arm in a box score, but the evaluators talking to the scouts seem to be in the process of letting us know that Simmons is worth following.

Of course, I am basing this on hearing a little from Baseball America and guessing that others who have been a little more silent or reacted only to fan questions will have similar “findings.”

by parish on Oct 14, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Observations on a Great List

This is a great list and with some rankings which struck me as generous. I really like Simmons position on the list!. That said, I don’t quite understand the comment about Betancourt as I think most Braves fans realize that he has yet to put it all together. I also like the placement of Lipka, who I think had a better season than many recognized.

My only real disagreement is putting Milligan on the list—not only does has he appear to be injury prone, but his strikeout rate is not all that different from Cody Johnson’s. At least Johnson had youth going with him, but Milligan will be 24 at AA. That is hardly too old, but it is not young either. He might easily be replaced by Mycal Jones.

The ‘Others’ list should have included Matt Kennelly, Chasen Shreve and Lucas Lapoint. It is also not clear why Gomez who is now 27 makes it and Mejia (who turns 26 in December and mashed the ball in a pitcher’s park at AA) doesn’t, because they are similar players.

Nonethless, this is a good and even thought provoking list.

by Stephen in the UAE on Oct 13, 2011 5:11 AM EDT reply actions  

I will say one thing

Thanks for the heads-up on Lipka. I hadn’t seen the article about his move to center field, but after his lackluster full season debut and the crowd of good looking shortstop prospects ahead of him, I guess this was just a matter of time.

I actually don’t mind the move all that much. Perhaps the effort to stick at shortstop was draining his bat a bit, and I see no reason why he can’t be an excellent center fielder with some experience.

Something else interesting actually, looking over the system. As you mentioned, the bats initially seem a little weak . . .but then you start looking at the defensive profiles. Simmons, plus-to-plus-plus shortstop. Salcedo, meh. Pastornicky, good glove in middle infield with okay bat. Bethancourt, excellent defensive tools. Lipka, potential to be a plus glove in CF and perhaps more depending on progress.

On the surface, the bats don’t look all that great, but it sure looks like the Braves are trying to exploit a perceived market inefficiency in up-the-middle defense.

by mrkupe on Oct 13, 2011 9:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Impressive system

It’s a solid system even after the graduation of Beachy/Minor/Freeman/Kimbrel. And of course, Heyward and even Jurrjens are still young.

Overtime loss: The new black.

by Varry Galk on Oct 13, 2011 1:46 PM EDT reply actions  

No Hanson?!

The Braves have a very good nucleus of players that are under 30 so the future looks really good!

by Jay212033 on Oct 13, 2011 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not much room to graduate players.

There’s not a lot of holes for the up-and-coming prospects.

Without trades: one starting pitcher…maybe, shortstop.

Minor could start the year with the big club and send Teheran, Delgado and Vizcaino all back to AAA. I guess they could all lose their prospect eligibility with spot starts.

by parish on Oct 13, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

sick AAA staff right there

Minor League Ball's 2010 Rookie of the Year Poster
If you didn't know by now, my screen name is sarcastic

by mathisrocks5 on Oct 13, 2011 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great Job John!

I really like the grades, I don’t have a beef with one grade! Love the aggressive grade given to Simmons, I have seen the kid play and his bat is much better than people give him credit, his glove is almost second to none the kid can really pick it at Short!

by Jay212033 on Oct 13, 2011 5:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Scary thing is that this is the list after taking away a pair of pretty decent prospects in Clemens and Oberholtzer

I’d hold onto these guys if I were them. If history has been any indication, stockpiling prospects, especially pitching prospects, is never a bad idea.

by Patrick Harrel on Oct 15, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Minor League Ball: Where the Future of Baseball is Discussed

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
BA Top 100
Gorilla_small
Kevin Goldstein's BP top 101 Prospects
Small
Catch-22: Is Travis D’Arnaud the ‘Next One?’

Recent FanPosts

Small
Overall Community Prospect #102
Small
Community Pitching Prospect #68
Small
Community Positional Prospect #70 RUNOFF
Small
My 2013 top 15
Dme_small
2012 MLBDD Prospect Lists: Top 15 First Basemen
Small
Baseball America Top 100 for 2012
Small
Community Pitching Prospect #67 RUNOFF
Small
Community Positional Prospect #70
Small
Overall Community Prospect #101

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

March2111_084_small John Sickels

Jeri_avatar_small mssickels

Authors

Headshot_small dougdirt

Mblpglogo_small Matt Garrioch

Small SethSpeaks

Osnation2_small Jordan Tuwiner

Img00006-20101226-1702_small Ray Guilfoyle

Lax-xl_small Marisa Ingemi

Small Marc Hulet

Moderators

Small mrkupe


Site Meter