Medlen: A case of total disregard to a young pitchers health
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 5:35 PM EDT
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I might be alone, but I can't help but to think that Medlen has been totally abused by the Atlanta Braves this season. The kid has done a stellar job in the first 170 innings of his MLB career and all he got in recognition is to get absolutely mishandled, for the greater glory of the Bobby Cox fair well tour. The way they have jerked this guy from pen to rotation and back and forth multiple times is criminal. I know he isn't held in as high esteem as Tommy Hanson, but he did a wonderful job of holding his own and to show their appreciation the Braves made it a habit to jerk this kid around. Was there going to be any other result then a major injury. Maybe my reaction is wrong, I'm no pitching coach. But it's the way I feel, how bout you.
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meaning?
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Meaning
Usually a reactionary post of this nature contains numerous spelling errors, sometimes including a misspelling of the player’s name. So I was impressed that you made a post blaming an organization of intentionally destroying a pitcher’s career with little to no spelling mistakes.
I don't think they intentionally destroyed his career
I think they took some risks that possibly be avoided.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 6, 2010 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
y are most young relievers
generally sent down to the minors to stretch out when the the need for them to move from the pen to the rotation.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there's a case for it
Typically, guys let loose as starters in order to get their stuff up a tick or two. If teams aren’t careful, pitcher mechanics can go to hell in relief. Moreover, when moved to relief, most pitchers scrap their changeups and go straight fastball/breaking ball, which I’d imagine takes a toll on their arms.
by Outshined_One on Aug 5, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
depends on role
i’d say your comment has merit in the 8th/9th inning roles, but those guys coming in with runners on base and pitching multiple innings out of the pen still have to keep that multiple pitch rotation….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Arm injuries just happen
As a Medlen fan, this sucks balls, but I think the Braves were gonna make an effort to limit his innings this year. I think they even gave him an extended break following the AS break and skipped him. Obviously your argument is based on the repeated role changes from RP to SP to RP to SP. I don’t disagree with you in that this could possibly be the reason why his elbow blew out. However, it really is hard to pinpoint the true reasoning behind arm injuries because there is no such thing as good pitching mechanics, no real number of how many pitches a guy should throw in a game, etc. Its all just theories. Pitchers blow out their arms all the time, some who were percieved to have excellent mechanics, innings monitored, small workloads, etc.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
thank you for the thought out response
instead of the
“wow”
“at least the spelling is correct”
pompous type of response that is becoming the norm around here.
I just think it’s a legitimate point of view, seeing that he was only alloted 15 inning in the spring, worked out of the pen for a month and a half, then made his first start going 6.1 innings. Sent back to the pen later in the year worked 3 out of 5 days then made a start 3 days later.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
you're right on all accounts
Too many douchebags on this site that try to be funny.
The Braves definitely did jerk around Medlen. I really hope that they didn’t sacrifice this kid for Bobby Cox’s farewell tour and win at all costs approach. I just hope he can fully recover to have what I thought was a promising young career. He was very underrated.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
I think part of your issue may be explained by what was going on behind the scenes
Yeah, Medlen went over 6 innings in his first start, but he had gone over 4 innings 10 days earlier and was clearly working out of the bullpen to stretch his arm out (made one appearance during those 10 days). He wasn’t exactly sent back to the pen later either, he didn’t start for 17 days because of the AS break and off days allowing the Braves to stick with their top 4. Sure, he could have gone back to the minors to stay stretched out, but I assume the Braves were thinking it was a chance to limit his innings.
Maybe the Braves didn’t handle things like they should have, but calling it a case of total disregard to a young pitchers health seems just as pompous as the responses you’re complaining about.
well he pitched 40+ pitches one time
up to that point then in the 4.1 innings pitched 88 and in between the 44 pitches he appeared 2 other times with diminished pitch counts. So I don’t believe that is text book stretching out of a pitcher
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitchers are allowed to pitch outside of real games
That’s the whole point of my post. Just because he wasn’t stretched out in games doesn’t mean the Braves weren’t doing anything behind the scenes to stretch him out. If he had suddenly thrown 180 innings this year after never topping 120 before you’d be complaining they used him too much in games. They decided to limit his innings by not stretching him out in real games. Maybe it didn’t work, but that doesn’t mean it was a case of total disregard for his health.
that...and...
jurrjens made his last start before the DL on april 29th…from that point, medlen was used only twice before may 8 (a span of 9 days) for a total of 3 innings…he was limited to 4.1 IP in his first start….for a guy having to quickly move to the rotation during an injury…that’s about as perfect as you’d like…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
so you have a textbook?
interesting…where in the textbook is jair jurrjens going on the DL?
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
FWIW
I hate the role changes from RP to SP during the season. SP to RP is okay, but only if it sticks and the guy is not jerked between roles repeatedly. You’re just asking for trouble, as is the case how fourfingerwoo has pointed out with Medlen.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by Dewey Finn on Aug 5, 2010 6:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
it can be done well, however
and this was an example of it being done well, but bad luck happening..his first start on may 8 was 4.1 IP…10 days later he made his second start and went 6.1 IP, with one 1 IP relief spot in between (essentially a throwing day the day he would have made a start to get his arm used to game use every 5 days…only on his 8th start of the year was he allowed to top 100 pitches, and he was only allowed to do that one time all season…he only went 8 IP once….even his time in the pen was exactly as you’d script for a 5th starter, not starting for 17 days because a 5th starter wasn’t needed, medlen pitched a total of 5 IP and 76 pitches in those 17 days, which is as good as you could possibly want…
this is a blatant opportunistic post, or else the original poster would be ripping the orioles, cardinals, padres, yankees, et al for their treatment of young starters this year….the ONLY reason this post was made was because the guy went on the DL….if he pitches the whole season with no issues, such a comment never would have been made and would have been universally panned if it even was made….
all in all, a post that epitomizes over reactive posting that has become common in the daily threads…the entirety of the research on his year that i posted took me about 2 minutes to get…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
first off I began the post with
…I may be alone, and that I think.
although your homer defense of the Braves organization is compelling. I still believe that he was mishandled and I never stated that it was an isolated incident.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, you're going to complain about dick responses
Then call a well reasoned post a homer defense of the Braves organization. You’re just as bad as the people mocking you.
and conclude the post
that I may be wrong. Calling it an opportunistic is reading a little much more into the post then I think is necessary. I posted it because I truly like Medlen as a pitcher. And haven’t seen a young pitcher with this much talent jerked from rotation to pen multiple times like this kid was as the general rule of thumb.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
i'll eagerly await
your mat latos-san diego rip, your stephen strasburg-nationals rip, and your soon-to-come phil hughes-yankees rip and jaime garcia-cardinals rip…without those, it does come off as very opportunistic…
i’m definitely not a homer to the organization, trust me…they’ve ruined and misjudged talent over and over….schuerholz is one of the most overrated GMs of time…but the way they handled medlen is not a point to rail on them….the fact that they didn’t move to a six man rotation with kawakami and medlen is the more confusing issue from the get-go this year…looking at their rotation in spring training, medlen had no reason to be stretched out AT ALL…he was one of the most important relievers coming into the season with the injury concerns of many of the top relievers in the atlanta pen coming into the season…
i still believe medlen will someday be a dominant closer, not a starter, but i don’t see an issue with how he was handled this year, especially not in relation to how many young pitchers are being handled this year
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
I agree completely
Switching between roles is just a terrible idea with young arms.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
yeah...
never worked at all with that santana guy….yep…
and before the comments come, i’m in no way comparing the two pitchers….just stating that switching from bullpen to rotation during the season is not all bad…
and this is very common usage of a 5th starter in the rotation to float between appearances in the pen and in the rotation when there’s not a need for a 5th for a week or two…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Eh..
my problem is really when teams move guys back and forth, especially when they do so without sending them out to the minors for a time.
I think breaking in starting pitching prospects in the bullpen is actually a great way to do it.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
The only timed he got moved back and forth
Was over the ASB when they didn’t need their #5 starter for two and half weeks. I’m sure in their minds they were just limiting his innings and I assume he kept doing work on the side as he only pitched 4 times over 17 days.
I was talking in general. I don't have an issue with the way Medlen was handled.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
I don't think Medlen's injuries have more than a minimal amount to do with the way he was handled.
While not ideal, the Braves did try to protect him a little bit. Medlen was someone who was always kind of a risk for injury with his stature and less than ideal mechanics (NOTE: This is NOT an inverted W, me predicting this guy WILL get hurt thing. His mechanics weren’t the smoothest and he isn’’t very big, though he is athletic. You can certainly understand why he would be at higher risk than some of injuries. I am not saying this was destined to happen or anything crazy like that.)
Bullpen Banter
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twitter: @alskor
^ Agreed.
It’s just easy for people to pick out the times when somebody gets hurt or doesn’t take to the new role well….and simple to not notice all the times pitchers do just find going back and forth until they settle in one direction.
Not that a pitcher can’t be mishandled in such a way……but I’m guessing the MLB staffs and coaches know more than I do about what each pitcher in their organization can handle. Their jobs are to win and turn a profit (which winning often helps of course), if that means using a pitcher in a role that’s best for the team at said time…so be it.
Slight Overstatement IMO
I don’t think Medlen was handled poorly but there were some mistakes along the way. biggentleben does a good roundup of his numbers. He wasn’t overextended in any real start and the only reason he returned to the bullpen was because they didn’t want his only work between July 7th and July 24th to be side sessions it wasn’t like he was put in the pen because they had another 5th starter.
I think this post was a slight exaggeration but the arguement that there were mistakes in his handling this year are valid. Still it is impossible to say for sure how much any mistake (in his handling) had to do with his injury anymore then any other number of factors.
All I can ask the Braves fans that are so offended by the post
is this the way you want Teheran handled when he comes up.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
because it's an example
of it being done well
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
are you comparing
Medlen to Teheran?
If so, you don’t know anything about pitching prospects.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Aug 6, 2010 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions
i don't see him comparing them as prospects at all
where do you get that idea?
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
Well he's asking people to compare how they'd feel if Teheran was handled similarly
You kind of do have to compare them as prospects to do that. Medlen was a relief prospect that that was moved into the rotation at times in 2008 and 2009. Teheran has only ever been used as a starting pitcher. Medlen was older with more experience so it was justifiable to bring him up to use in the pen. Because of Teheran is younger with less experience, it makes more sense to keep him in the minors getting as many innings as possible until a spot in the rotation opens up.
lol...the funny part is
that you think anyone is offended by this post…
ideally, i’d love to see teheran follow the johan santana route into the majors…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
You called it a case of total disregard for a young pitchers health
Of people who disagree are going to push back a little bit when you say something as dramatic as that.
Comparing Teheran to Medlen is just asinine. Medlen was a full time reliever until 2008, when the Braves had him move from the pen to the rotation during the season. They did the exact same thing last year, except he went from the rotation to the pen. He’s never spent a full season as a SP, so keeping him there for the majority of this season would have been just as bad, if not worse, than jerking him around like you’re complaining about. What they did this year is no different than how he’s been handled in the past. Teheran is a completely different animal as he’s been trained as a starter his entire career. On top of that, he’s a young guy that probably should spend as much time as possible working on starting in the minors. He should be kept in AAA until a spot opens for him in the rotation because he needs as much experience as possible.
We shall now refer to this situation as...
“The Medlen Rules”, lol.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
What exactly was wrong with the way he was handled?
He started in the bullpen and transitioned to the rotation. He only pitched out of the bullpen to keep fresh during the week or two that the Braves didn’t need a 5th starter.
"Keep fresh"
Pitching is just a plain unhealthy action for someone’s arm. And then you’re taking someone’s arm repeatedly performing an unhealthy action and removing a controlled routine from the equation by changing up the pattern and timing of his usage multiple times over a few months.
When it ends in a pretty serious arm injury, it’s not really that hard to look back and wonder if that sort of usage had a detrimental effect on the condition of his arm. Can’t definitively say it did but I easily believe it.
I think it's a very retrospect attempt at explaining it
I didn’t see anyone saying that it was a worrisome move at the time. He threw 5 innings over 4 outings in the middle of July.
Less innings != less stress though
Who says it didn’t weaken during outing 2 because the arm wasn’t fully healed from outing 1? Like I said, I can’t prove the move back and forth was what weakened the arm. I probably can’t make a convincing argument. But the arm was not used in a consistent manner. When I combine an inherently unhealthy action and inconsistent usage, I can see only bad things happening.
Lots of players/coaches believe it isn’t just the act of throwing more pitches, but the types of pitches and the situation. I don’t think constantly changing a players role is good (heck, I’m not even sure changing a positional player’s role is good) but I don’t think you can just point to that and say it is the cause of the injury (which even you address).
At the same time
If they sent him to AAA to let him keep starting, he ends up blowing past his career high in innings, and then gets hurt people are going to say the same thing. They took him out of the rotation to limit his innings. I don’t think its fair to look back after he goes down and say there was something wrong with it.
They limited his innings
Doesn’t mean what they were doing was what was best for the arm. I think there’s something to be said for keeping to a reasonable routine, especially with arms that don’t have a lot of mileage on them. If you’re not consistent with the usage of someone’s arm, how can you say you’re doing your best to limit the stress his arm experiences? Sure, shit happens and not like the Braves are criminally negligible or anything. But I don’t like it and it is not a surprise that it ended badly for Medlen.
Hindsight is 20/20
Its easy to blame it on this after the fact, but I didn’t see you on here saying anything about it at the time. The Braves know Medlen well, he’s moved between the bullpen and the rotation before, and the Braves thought it made more sense to rest his arm in the pen than to keep his routine while piling up more innings on his arm. I don’t know of either way is definitely the right way. I don’t think you do either. Looking back it looks like the wrong decision, but it was perfectly reasonable at the time.
I wasn't on here posting about it
Because I barely post here and wasn’t following the Braves organization closely to have an opinion that I’d go out of my way to espouse here. I mostly just read the site intermittently to get minor league news and happened to have something to say today.
And decisions can seem plenty “reasonable” and still be the wrong one. If the Braves were right, so be it. But they ought to be making damn sure their reasonable decision didn’t negatively impact their pitcher so they don’t do it to someone else.
I doubt they'd be as willing to do it with another guy
Medlen had transitioned from relieving to starting midseason in the past (he had only ever been a reliever until mid 2008). As for skipping over him in the midseason, I’m sure you could find plenty of examples of other teams doing similar stuff and its not like he couldn’t still throw normal side sessions and just be unavailable to be used those days (and based on his usage pattern I think the Braves did just that).
i'll await your post on the yanks
and their usage of phil hughes….very, very similar over the last couple of years…
this is 100% opportunistic and reactionary posting, something that has been plaguing this site for some time….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
I get your point
I’ll keep my posts to
“Billingsly breaks leg”
and
Jose Reyes to the Orioles
those 2 posts of yours were well thought out and extremely riveting
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 5, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
um
not sure if i should be flattered or worried that you’re stalking me…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
neither
You should be upset because you got served by fourfingerwoo.
If you wanna dish it, you gotta be able to take it.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
that's serving?
maybe at a mcdonald’s….drive-thru
he nitpicked past posts, realizing that if he took my two most recent posts, he’d have to include one that most enjoyed….and he picks a joke post and a good discussion…not sure how either of them is a poor post, but i’ll take the noob trying to get some notice if he seems to think that’s “serving”….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Seriously?
Yes, I’m sure those weren’t anywhere near as valuable to the site as “Overloaded at first need a little help”, “What is the name of the site”, or “Dynasty League Opening”.
After looking at both of your post histories, I can say with confidence that I’d take ben’s content over yours any day of the week.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 6, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
well that would make you the
Siscle and Ebert of minorleagueball.
But I must be honest with you, I possess an engineering degree and my professional life and baseball analyst as a hobby revolve around numbers. I’m sorry if my posts are not literary works of genius. But I’m just a simple connasse from Louisiana. But I guess if I’m to venture into the world of you literary giants, I need to buy a webster and expand my English dialect.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 6, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You are getting ridiculously defensive
You made a reactionary post, people pidgeonholed it as such, and then you decided to go and attack their unrelated work. All I was trying to point out was: if you’re going to go through and rip apart others’ posts for being inessential, you should definitely make sure you haven’t made similar (or in your case, worse) missteps in your time on the site. It comes across as a bit dickish and kneejerk.
And, nobody said you have to be an English major. In fact, I don’t think I ever implied that I have a problem with your style of posting. But, you could certainly learn to take criticism a little better.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 6, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
well
if you cant identify a snide comment that is meant in jest to respond to another snide comment, then you sir are the one that is being dickish and extremely simplistic. Believe me I don’t take myself serious enough to feel too put off by criticism, if you take time to view most of my defensive responses you might find the humor in them. If not oh well, believe me I’m not in a defensive posture by any means. But I do enjoy return a jab for a jab.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 6, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm
I grew up watching Siskel and Ebert so I don’t know this Siscle you’re talking about. Were you trying to do some sort of weird mashup of Sickels & Siskel?
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by WayneCampbell08 on Aug 14, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Keep on keeping on Yanks
I hope Phil Hughes blows his arm out.
+1
glad he’s not my son, getting hated on like that
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Aug 6, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Medlen isnt that good
and guys that overachieve typically get rode hard. It’s just smart managing. Would you rather they miss the playoffs so Medlen can go on to be the 4th or 5th pitcher for Atlanta for the next 5 years?
seriously
i think he may have 3rd starter upside as a starter…i always thought medlen was best suited at the back of the bullpen long-term…this doesn’t change anything in that evaluation….
point is well taken, though…bobby’s record with young pitchers has been pretty poor over his career, so mishandling medlen wouldn’t have been out of line with his past….i just don’t see this as mishandling…
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Aug 5, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
not mishandling
Medlen is excellent in the pen. Very good starter in bursts. But he is a small pitcher that really gets the most out of his frame. I really like his pitchability.
Bobby had to put him out there. I’m sure he knew the risks and did as much as he could to prevent it. To 100% prevent it he would have had to shut him down longer or other steps. But they have a season on the line and that wasn’t going to happen.
It’s easy to talk about conservative approach and point to what losing teams with young pitchers are doing. But when you are in the hunt those rules go out the window.
that's also part of my point
their plan for 2010 never included medlen in the rotation…jurrjens got hurt, kawakami proved ineffective, and things changed….nothing the braves really could have changed about the situation…considering those variables, i think he was handled as well as you could possibly hope for….
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Yes, he is...
In a little over 90 IP, Medlen had been worth 1.5 wins to the Braves. This put him 3rd overall among Braves pitchers, and 2nd overall when you factor in Wins/IP. Only Hanson had been better. Moreover, Medlen was 2nd in the team in FIP (to Hanson), and 1st in xFIP. So yeah, you’re pretty off in your “analysis”
by Franchise887 on Aug 6, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
107 IP
107 IP, not a little over 90. Looked at the wrong RP IP column at first.
by Franchise887 on Aug 6, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but the WAR/IP isn't a good stat
It gives an unfair advantage to guys who get to pitch in relief as its easier to post a good FIP when you’re going all out for an inning at a time. Medlen just isn’t that good as a starter, though he’s very good in relief. For his career, his ERA as a starter is 4.31 due to a lower K rate (7.1) and a terrible HR rate (1.23). His FB CH combo is great the first time through the order, but the lack of a reliable third pitch leads to him getting crushed the second and third times through the order.
WAR takes that into account.
Replacement level is higher for relievers than starters, I believe.
I always thought it was based solely on FIP and innings pitched
Maybe I’m wrong though. I still don’t like WAR/IP as good starters should be pitching more innings.
For example you're moving Medlen over Hudson in terms of value
Because Hudson isn’t getting any extra credit for going 6.8 innings per start compared to 6.0 for Medlen.
Oh, I agree, WAR/IP isn't a great measure of value
but I do believe that pitcher WAR values relief innings separately from starter innings:
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/pitcher-win-values-explained-part-four
Just used it for illustrative purposes...
Agreed, its not a great stat.
by Franchise887 on Aug 7, 2010 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate pitch counts
but I depise Inning counts. He is a pitcher he should get his arm into shape to pitch, I don’t blame this on the Braves Managment or Bobby Cox. When did it become bad to let pitchers pitch, that is the only way he is going to get better is to let him pitch.
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"And why do we fall, Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up." Thomas Wayne
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
wrong!
You are completely ignoring the issue of fatigue.
Pitching with a tired arm increases risk for strains and tears.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
Higher risk, higher reward
It’s sort of like playing Russian Roulette. If you happen to have one of those guys who just never gets hurt (Nolan Ryan , Steve Carlton, etc.), then you’re better off letting him pitch more. Just you don’t know whether someone will be one of those guys until after they get hurt.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Its always been bad.
If you read baseball history you’ll find guys used to often blow their arms out and end up shifting to anther position even as far back as the 19th century.
Bullpen Banter
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twitter: @alskor
Do you know who doesn't despise inning counts?
Mark Prior.
by King Billy Royal on Aug 6, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
that was because he had terrible mechanics
it was all arm and no legs, Tim Lincencum will have a long career because he uses his legs instead of just using his arm to get the ball to home plate as hard as he does
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"And why do we fall, Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up." Thomas Wayne
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
max effort
Could lead to durability concerns long-term.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
well that is one thing I would want a young pitcher to learn
how to change speed on his fastball and relize that he doesn’t have to throw as hard as he can on every pitch
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"And why do we fall, Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up." Thomas Wayne
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
Timmy does utilize a killer changeup quite frequently and effectively.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
fwiw
it’s a partial tear (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/braves-medlen-as-a-partial-tear-in-his-ucl-tommy-john-surgery-likely.php) and will Likely have to have Tommy John. With that said, I fully expect that he’ll be ready to pitch by the All-Star Game next year with an eye to being ready to go by 2012.
while it sucks for the Braves and Medlen, it’s not the end of the world. He will come back and, if Hudson is any indication, the Braves have a history of guys coming back from this ready to go.
Please remember, too, that Medlen is still pretty young.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Aug 6, 2010 3:33 AM EDT reply actions
I agree completely.
As a Braves fan I was a little hasty the game before the All-Star break when they brough Medlen in in relief. I realized the thought process behind it after I thought about it rationally and settled down a bit. After the break though they brought him for an inning on the 16th, two on the 17th and one more on the 21st. I figured they were going to trade for a new pitcher at that point.
He ended up starting on the 24th then again (on normal rest) on the 30th. It didn’t make sense to me and I see exactly where fourfingerwoo is coming from. Injuries do happen but it seems like Medlen was “jerked around” and this crazy pitching strategy they tried with him was avoidable and just couldn’t have worked out worse.
Quick comment to those who say Medlen isn't that good...
Reposting from above: In a 107 IP, Medlen had been worth 1.5 wins to the Braves. This put him 3rd overall among Braves pitchers, and 2nd overall when you factor in Wins/IP. Only Hanson had been better. Moreover, Medlen was 2nd in the team in FIP (to Hanson), and 1st in xFIP. So yeah, you’re pretty off in your "analysis"
And this is where scouting reports trump numbers
Medlen is great as a reliever, but nowhere near as good as a starter. For his career, he has a 4.31 ERA as a starter with a significantly lower K rate and much higher HR rate. He gets crushed the second and third time through lineups because of his lack of a reliable third pitch. He also doesn’t seem to be able to handle a starter’s workload, as the injury this year seems to point to.
I also don’t think its fair to compare Medlen and Hudson through the scope of FIP or xFIP. Those numbers make assumptions that do well in projecting the majority of pitchers, but they can fail on when we look at outliers like Hudson. He’s an elite, elite GB pitcher that has always maintained low BABIP, which makes sense as research shows GB pitchers tend to have lower BABIP on GB than average pitchers and FB pitchers. I’m sorry, but after 2200+ IP, I’m more inclined to look at ERA for Hudson than FIP.
Dude
What he has done doesn’t determine what he will do. He just isn’t that good. If you so desire please read the scouting report I posted about a year ago on him and tell me where I’m wrong.
you mean your scouting report where you pretty much praised him in each section
and concluded “I don’t see a reason he can’t be a solid starter for Atlanta.”?
Yep
Did I ever say he wasn’t good? I think I said he wasn’t ‘that’ good. As in he isn’t a special arm that you prefer to protect at the cost of your season.
Or was there some misunderstanding of what I said?
I'd actually disagree with some of what you said in the scouting report
I think the curve is average at best and he’s really seemed to struggle locating it this year. At this point its more of a show me pitch that anything. The change on the other hand appears to be a real swing and miss offering. I actually think its his best pitch right now. The lack of a solid third pitch (the curve) really seems to be what’s holding him back as his numbers the second and third time through the lineup are especially bad.
Yeah
I have not watched him this year. I mentioned the report because it’s not like I dislike medlen. He is valuable. Teams love to have guys like this. They are disposable though.
honestly I would say there is a conflict of message
When you say “He just isn’t that good”, and then come back and say “Did I ever say he wasn’t good?”
That is a pronoun
If someone said medlen was as good as Felix then my statement would mean he is no as good as Felix. And if someone said he was a fifth starter then I would be saying he isn’t as good as a fifth starter.
It’s not a conflicting message, I just believe you misinterpreted what the sentence means.
I faced this guy in Junior Collegewhen he was at Santa Ana.
He played short stop and then came into close the game. Hell of an athlete sucks that he got hurt. Wish all the best. As for the post, shit happens man. He just got hurt, he got unlucky. The Braves did nothing to add to this and the fact that you are saying they drove him into the ground are purpose is crazy! I understand where you are coming from but he just got hurt. IT happens.
Big Bats, We Don't Need No Stinkin Big Bats!
Pitcher's get hurt
Trying to demonstrate a causal link between 4 relief appearances and an injury is foolhardy. The Braves were very cautious with Medlen, attempting to keep his innings down by having him work out of the bullpen (but still on roughly regular rest) immediately after the break, as well as having him stay under 100 pitches in all but one start.
Obviously that didn’t prevent injury, but calling it “total disregard” for a pitcher is asinine.
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