Strasburg to have Tommy John surgery
Nats GM Mike Rizzo is on a conference call right now discussing the results of Stephen Strasburg's MRI, and he stated that Strasburg will need to have the Tommy John procedure. Big bummer all around. He has a tear in his UCL, and the procedure will be done by the same surgeon that did Jordan Zimmermann's TJS last year.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5502866
I wonder how Nats' broadcaster Rob Dibble feels about his statements that Strasburg should just "suck it up" and get out there and throw through the pain?
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Damn
I hate it when awesomeness is put on the shelf for so long. All fans lose, and of course it sucks for Strasburg himself.
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$15 million
Yeah, he looked good but I say this seems like karma for paying 50% over the previous record for a player without professional experience.
Okay, maybe not karma but I lifes a bitch and I have no sympathy for the greedy…which is what EVERY bor-ass client is.
Ok, so players should just accept less than they are worth. Much less, actually
than he’d be worth on the open market. And agents shouldn’t try to get the most money they can for their clients. Isn’t that their job? You’re nuts.
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was he on the open market?
nope, so your point is pointless.
Not pointless at all.
His market is artificially depressed, meaning he gets less money than he’s worth. Also, he provides millions of dollars in value for the club, more than he’ll be paid in his first few years as a pro. He is still UNDERPAID.
The baseball salary structure is weighted towards older players. If you want to rant against someone getting too much money, find a better target. And Boras is only doing his job, he’s not some evil, mustache-twisting guy in a cape and top hat.
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
Mustache-twisting
And Boras is only doing his job, he’s not some evil, mustache-twisting guy in a cape and top hat.
Agreed. Jeffrey Loria is an evil, mustache-twisting guy in a cape and top hat.
by King Billy Royal on Aug 31, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Sep 1, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I may be nuts
but you’ll never hear me discuss any other agent and his clients as ‘greedy’. Just the lying, scum sucking, no ethics scott bor-ASS and his herd.
How is he greedy?
Why do people always feel bad for billionaire owners as opposed to millionaire players? If Strasburg were a free agent he would have got a lot more than $15 million.
by King Billy Royal on Aug 31, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
greedy is
trying to break the bank when you have exactly zero professional experience.
He was not and is not a free agent. Follow the process and if he succeeds, he’ll get his money when arbitration comes around, and then free agency.
Why do people STILL talk about “if he was a free agent”?
If he was a free agent he would get MORE money
The MLB is doing everything in its power to artificially suppress what these players earn. The process sucks and I have no idea why anyone would side with the owners and their cartel.
http://bullpenbanter.com/
yes, this is one of the more bizarre things going on in baseball
For some reason, lots of owners don’t like paying these kids these bonuses . . .when they don’t realize that these kids are the best deal they can possibly get in baseball. Hard to believe that these guys never took economics 101, but it sure looks that way.
The owners alone wouldn’t be enough to change the system, I think . . .except that the MLBPA would love to change the system even more than they would. MLBPA doesn’t represent minor league baseball players, who when promoted are cost-controlled for years and thus are very valuable assets to their teams. Teams aren’t willing to pay Jermaine Dye a couple of million a year when they can promote a kid from the minors that they think can do a fair enough job and cost them a quarter of the same amount. And the players in the MLBPA aren’t so vain or stupid not to realize that most of them are going to one day be looking at a similar situation. The only way to keep these guys in major league baseball and making a major league salary is to stem the flow of quality replacement-level or above talent into MLB.
It makes me wonder an awful lot about the spending habits of major league baseball players . . .if it’s anything like the players of other major American sports, we’re basically looking at baseball selling out the future of the sport in exchange for a quick fix for the present generation. Shocking that this is happening under Bud Selig.
It makes perfect sense for the owners
They know that they can cut costs on amateur players whereas they’d have to deal with the union if they tried to do it at the major league level. The fact that the MLBPA thinks that their representatives will suddenly be paid as they were during the boom period of the early 2000s is the hilarious part. Just because the owners cut cost even further with hard slotting doesn’t mean they’ll suddenly pay aging free agents on their past performances.
http://bullpenbanter.com/
Wrong
You state that he should “Follow the process”. How is he not doing that? He held out for maximum amount of money which is his right, as baseball does not have a hard slot system in place. He has every right to demand what he is worth under the market conditions, and if teams do not like it they do not have to sign him. I guarantee you that the Nationals will make much more off Strasburg then what they paid him.
by King Billy Royal on Aug 31, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't say I'm shocked
as hard as he throws he puts so much strain on his ligaments that at some point he is going to have something like this happen to him.
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Wow.
Hopefully he returns at 100% and continues his success.
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This sucks
He is amazing to watch and losing him is a big blow to baseball. Hopefully he can come back and pitch to his previous talents.
by King Billy Royal on Aug 27, 2010 11:07 AM EDT reply actions
Somewhere, as we speak, Adam Foster is making reservations at Ruth's Chris
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
RE
If you’re saying he would get hurt then you’re right (then again, betting that any pitcher would get hurt, at some point, is a safe bet). But if you’re talking about the Mike Leake career comparison, then not at all. Just look to Josh Johnson. Elbow =/= Shoulder.
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Well, right...
No need to over analyze though.
Personally, I’d still wager on Stras having a better career.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
Ouch
Boy, looks like those Nats are going to have to wait another year before potentially contending.
I certainly wish him the best with his lengthy recovery. May he come back stronger than ever!
.406
I do agree that it's a huge blow to baseball.
The buzz surrounding Strasburg from start to start this year was unlike anything we’d seen in baseball post-Pedro. I remember when Liriano went down, the feeling was that we’d lost one of the best emerging starters in baseball. Strasburg’s season took away that “emerging” qualifier, and tossed him in with the best of the best.
Here’s hoping he can return to this level, though it seems pretty doubtful.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 27, 2010 11:31 AM EDT reply actions
Decent chance
That he could return to this level. Tommy John is pretty common. Zimmermann despuite a rough return in the majors seems healthy.
The question to me is more will he get hurt again.
I think there's less of a track record of "returning to prior levels" when the prior level is so high.
I don’t see how someone can say with any certainty that a guy with a fastball that sits 98, one of the best curveballs in the game, and elite command/control will return to that level after missing a year of development time to a serious elbow injury.
It’s a hefty claim to make, is all.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 27, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I suppose so. Some guys have come back throwing harder. i thought walden had had TJS but he only had elbow issues.
Matt Riley
I ws just reading that he was actually throwing hardest after his second Tommy John. But that’s only maxing at 95.
I think Stras could hit the same velocity when he comes back. But if his motion is causing the strain on his elbow they will change it. And the change may prevent him from being uite as good as he has been. Because a second Tommy John, most don’t come back from that. I couple of years ago or so I think only 12 guys had done it twice. Doug Brocail made it back from the second one.
Did he?
Yeah, the article I was looking at was from 2007, and at that time only 12 guys had had 2. Supposedly.
Yeah i forgot about Kuo. He is still treated somewhat with kid gloves, although now he’s closing. earlier this year Torre wouldn’t throw him 2 games in a row. And he’s throwing like 50 innings a year.
josh johnson
came back from TJ and is now throwing mid 90s… he was low 90s before it
Some guys do, some guys are out of baseball in a couple years
I hope Strasburg is the former, but let’s be realistic here, there is no way to spin TJ surgery as a good thing.
Maybe he'll add velocity...
and come back throwing 105 mph.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
by Kerm on Aug 27, 2010 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Only if they're replacing his right elbow with Aroldis Chapman's left one.
by Geki on Aug 28, 2010 3:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or repair his...
AND add Chapman’s…
Can you imagine that ambidextrous pitcher?
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Aug 29, 2010 4:53 AM EDT up reply actions
The next Mark Prior?
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 11:42 AM EDT reply actions
Prior mostly had shoulder injuries didn't he?
Far worse for a pitcher than elbow problems.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
Correct
The Strasburg is the new Prior meme is pretty annoying.
agreed...
It’s not even close to a certainty for me that Prior’s mechanics were related to his inability to stay healthy.
Prior never had an arm related injury prior to his collision with Marcus Giles in which he landed on his shoulder. It was only in 2006 when doctors discovered Prior’s anterior capsule was torn away from the humerus.
Prior’s doctors said the injury is normally associated with traumatic events, like a fall, and is not associated with baseball. I wonder when that may have happened? Original article here.
I also won’t even mention the line drive that shattered his right elbow the following season.
by Alex Eisenberg on Aug 29, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I guess
but kinda the same thing, phenom gets overworked and injured.
Second young arm in the Nats system to get Tommy John, any connection?
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Connection
Yep, they were both pitchers.
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by t ball on Aug 27, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriosuly
Is something going on there?
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
You're looking for a trend with 2 pitchers?
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They might as well get a two for one, and send AJ Cole to Birmingham right away as well.
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
by Kerm on Aug 27, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No
I trend in the Nationals organization the way they handle their young pitchers
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, come on
Even the insinuation is insane.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 27, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Just an idea
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Two isn't a trend, it's a coincidence
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
Edit
Three isn’t a trend, it’s a coincidence
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
Yes
But it has been incredibly bad fortune. Not sure how many orgs have had 3 highly thought of youngsters have 3 TJs in the span of about 12 months. Although McGeary isn’t at the level of Stras and Zimmermann (but he was fairly highly thought of).
Both Tommy John
My curiosity is are the Nationals rushing their young pitchers?
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait, what?
You’re wondering if the Nationals are rushing their young pitchers, because two of them in separate years have needed Tommy John surgery?
Seriously?
That’s nearly as bad a conclusion as pointing out that both Lester and Rizzo were diagnosed with lymphona, and wondering if it was something the Red Sox did to them.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 27, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It's completely different
I’m wondering if the Nationals are rushing their young pitchers and they are throwing too much in their rookie years.
I know Strasburg was approaching his inning limit already, he should have been shut down. I wonder if the same thing happened to Zimmerman.
It’s not a conclussion, it’s just open thinking. It’s probaly not a reason, just a thought.
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, really?
Nevermind then
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by bestbostonsports on Aug 27, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Guys, Rich Harden had elbow problems in 2006, and then Fautino De Los Santos had Tommy John surgery in 2008.
There is absolutely no way this is all unrelated.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 27, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point
I think Bob Welch had elbow issues back in ’92 as well
"I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day."
-Frank Sinatra
You're forgetting that Tommy John was an actual person and if it wasn't for him, no pitcher would ever need Tommy John surgery.
by Kenneth Arthur on Aug 27, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong
They would still ‘need Tommy John surgery’. However, it would not be available for them to have performed.
by King Billy Royal on Aug 27, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions
3 jack McGeary
Also had TJS this year. he was a 6th round pick but 1st round talent. he had a contract clause that let him go to Stanford and pitch only 1/2 a season for 3 yers.
Question
Would this have been there before they shut him down with shoulder soreness? If not, I do blame the Nats for not shutting him down at that time. There was no reason to bring him back and he was reaching his innings amount for the year.
I doubt that
I think it’s way too easy to play that game with this, and there’s little actual evidence to blame the Nats here. Plus, I really doubt that shutting him down would have avoided this; it was probably something that was either a.) already there, and needing attention, or b.) going to happen with continued pitching.
I’m not blaming it on his mechanics (because pitching mechanic science sucks, and for anybody to act like this is definitive support of a theory is ridiculous), but I think that if it happened now, it was going to happen regardless.
by RedSoxFaithful on Aug 27, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
fair enough
I don’t know enough about the science of the injury to really comment intelligently, that’s why I was asking, so I will refrain from making any judgments against the Nats for their handling of the situation.
by BryceHarper on Aug 27, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't know that ...
… but I do know the Nats seemed to give as much thought to Strasburg’s health as I’ve seen with a top prospect. Strict pitch counts, strict rest requirements, monitoring his every move. I find it hard to reconcile that with the recklessness of throwing a guy out there when you know he’s not healthy.
Sometimes you can do everything right and the worst still happens. That’s life.
mechanics be damned
the human body was not meant to throw a baseball overhand at 98 miles per hour.
by richieabernathy on Aug 27, 2010 12:12 PM EDT reply actions
Randy Johnson begs to differ
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Aug 27, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Implying...
Is that implying Randy Johnson never had arm problems or injuries?
He certainly was one of the most durable we’ve seen, sure, but he didn’t make it through completely healthy throughout the years.
Throwing a baseball is completely unnatural, sure the body can often compensate for it….which can also lead to stress and injuries in places other than the shoulder/elbow, but in the long run, there will most likely be issues in there somewhere. You just have to hope it’s nothing major, and if it is, then hope it’s something they can recover from.
The “I told you so” crowd disappoints me,,,but that’s when it comes to all injuries and prospects/youth. Like somebody mentioned above…assuming that any pitcher will get hurt is a fairly safe bet. As many others, I’m not surprised Strasburg is injured, but I’m not willing to say (nor disregard 100%) that it’s due to mechanics. I think it’s just the fact that he’s repeated an unnatural motion so many times that some kind of physical break was bound to happen…..the same for any pitcher, especially at this level when they’ve put in so much time and effort with an unnatural motion that the body just doesn’t want to do.
Johnson
had back issues, and that was after years of pitching. I don’t remember significant arm injuries and he was throwing a slider as his breaking ball. He’s as good an exception as you’ll find imo. Any athletic pursuit takes its toll.
by blackoutyears on Aug 30, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The human body does a lot of things its not meant to do. But the human brain will eventually figure out how to overcome it.
Because of $, eventually medicine will overcome these kinds of things for good.
by Kenneth Arthur on Aug 27, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Nolan Ryan?
Ever heard of him?
He pitched a few games throwing that hard plus 5 mph
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Aug 29, 2010 4:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Still Strasburg
I don’t think Harper will be up by 2012
Yeah, agreed.
Even as a right fielder, I have a tough time believing that his bat will only take around a year to be MLB-ready.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Aug 27, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Here, did we have a prearranged duel that I forgot about or something?
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by Jeff Reese on Aug 27, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nope
Just wanted to know whether it was you or JoeGonzo that said Rudy Owens didn’t have any plus pitches?
I was reading a chat today where Callis talked about Rudy Owens and was going to link it if it was you. I just couldn’t remember which one of you it was.
That's not quite what I said
I said every major outlet that I’ve seen talk about him has said he has bottom of the rotation stuff. His change-up is arguably a plus pitch.
http://bullpenbanter.com/
In his Ask BA segment (8/23), Callis said:
10. Rudy Owens, lhp
He keeps succeeding with very good command of fringy stuff.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/ask-ba/2010/2610558.html
http://bullpenbanter.com/
Callis
says he’s got a “plus changeup with pinpoint control”
But then it wasn’t you that said it., so it doesn’t matter.
Thanks though.
So Callis is saying two different things?
Or is his arsenal still fringy even with a plus changeup?
I’m a tad confused.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Sep 1, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's fringy in spite of a plus changeup
Which is basically what I’ve read from all mainstream sources.
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wow
indeeed
I called on the exact pitch - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Aug 27, 2010 4:48 PM EDT reply actions
second question
where would strasburg go in the 2009 draft if one had the ability to divine this would happen to him with 100% certainty 14 months after being drafted?
where would he go if this happened in april 2009 before he was drafted and faced a year and a half layoff?
first one is easy
He would obviously go first. He’s everything you could hope for and then some, whereas most draftees are still a long way from even doing what Strasburg has done in his brief MLB time. If he has surgery, he’ll likely be fully recovered just as the very best of the prep players from the draft are approaching the majors, and just as most of the best college players are getting settled down into their MLB careers.
Second question is tougher. But he was thought to be a truly unique talent. No way the hometown Padres don’t take him at 3, so that’d be his absolute floor. Hell, he might still go 1 . . .he wouldn’t pitch for the rest of that year anyways due to the contract negotiations. If he had surgery in April, he would have been starting rehab anywhere between May and July. Basically, he’d be just a year behind. Besides, the Nationals enjoyed the leverage of getting the No. 2 pick the next year in case they couldn’t reach a deal.
I'll just say that today makes me a little bit happier the M's got Ackley.
Not to say that the long term future for Strasburg isn’t still great, but this is why pitching talent is so much scarier than hitting talent.
by Kenneth Arthur on Aug 27, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
well, it can be scarier, but it can be better too
There’s no guarantee that Ackley will ever be as productive as Strasburg after Strasburg recovers. He certainly wasn’t going to be more productive than Strasburg before the injury. If you’re looking for the guy most likely to be an impact major leaguer, you still have to go with the guy with the busted elbow. Ackley probably has a slightly higher floor than Strasburg until we see how his rehab is going, but it’s not so much higher that anybody, the Mariners included, would actually take anybody from that draft over Strasburg.
Floor
You do realize Strasburg’ss floor is basically the same as yours now, as far as pitching in MLB is concerned? Ask Jesse Foppert what the floor is for a top pitching prospect after TJ.
Not saying the Nats still wouldn’t prefer him to Ackley, but Ackley’s floor is much higher at this point.
lol
Strasburg isn’t going to turn into some nobody off of this surgery. If players work hard and keep at their rehab, their recovery rate is quite good. I have no clue what happened with Foppert . . .TJ didn’t just rob him of his velocity, it robbed him of his command too. I can’t think of another case that went so poorly, and I have to think there were more issues there than just the physical ones. Strasburg’s work ethic is quite good, and while I’m not prepared to say for certaint that he’s going to once again be one of the best pitchers in all of baseball, it’d be pretty shocking to see that Tommy John surgery (a serious but not uncommon procedure) would reduce Strasburg from an All Star caliber pitcher to a fringe major leaguer.
Ackley’s floor is NOT higher at this point, and I think Ackley’s a pretty good prospect. But he hasn’t played a single inning in the majors yet, let alone perform in the majors to a level that would be equivalent to what Strasburg did this year.
Laugh all you want
Obviously we disagree here. Things go wrong in surgery sometimes—you do realize you are now asking a tendon to do the work of a ligament, right? Maybe his body doesn’t quite accept it. I don’t think work ethic is what i am questioning here, i am saying that this surgery isn’t without its risks, and those risks lower Strasburg’s floor.
I hope he comes back good as he was. My guess is he will be successful, probably moreso than Ackley going forward. In my opinion, Ackley’s floor right now is 2nd division CF. Strasburg’s floor is surgery goes awry, and he never regains velocity or command. Say a middle reliever. To me, that makes Ackley’s floor higher.
You say you have no clue what happened with Foppert—well, that is the scary part. I would put the odds of something like that happening with Strasburg around 5-10%, but the possibility exists.
What Ackley hasn’t done in MLB compared to what Strasburg has done has nothing to do with what their respective floors are going forward.
sure, it's risky
I believe the most estimated rate of “successful” recovery of TJ is somewhere between 85-92 percent, so yeah, not without its risks. I’m guessing the majority of those who don’t make it through are those who don’t do their rehab faithfully though, but I’m just guessing. But you’re dramatically overestimating Ackley’s floor. I like Ackley, but his floor is NOT league average center fielder. For one, he’s not even playing CF at the moment, and nobody seems to be moving him there right now. For two, he has been a good hitter but not a tremendously effective one who is a lock to perform in the majors. There have been players with his skill set who were supposed to be excellent major league players with high floors and turned out not to be too much at all.
Risk to me = lower floor
Well, your own statement deems success at 85-92, and i said 5-10 on the possibility for Strasburg, so we’re close on that one. Then you even say that you are guessing why it doesn’t sometimes work out. If that is the case, can you envision a scenario where his surgery/rehab doesn’t go well? I am just saying the possibility exists.
As for Ackley’s floor, i didn’t say league avg. CF. I said 2nd division, which to me implies below average. Say a poor mans Denard Span? You are right, no one is moving him there now, because he has more value as a 2bman.
As for your second point, perhaps he hasn’t been a tremendously effective hitter in the minors, but there is more than performance. Scouting reports on him are still high, at least last i heard.
There have been players of every skill set who were supposed to be excellent major league players with high floors who turned out to be not much at all, right?
All i’m talking about is floor. I would take Strasburg in a heartbeat over Ackley, because of the ceiling. I think Strasburg likely will come back and be something reminiscent of what we saw this year. But there is a non-zero chance he never sniffs what he was able to do this year.
floor should be reasonable
otherwise Ackley could be getting run over by a bus as we speak right now. It could happen.
I do think Strasburg’s floor is much lower than it was before. But I still see it higher than Ackley’s. But then again I see Ackley’s floor as a 280 hitter with no power and little steals playing LF or 1B. I see Strasburgs floor now as a solid closer with little control throwing 95 and good secondaries.
Reasonable
Obviously you and mrkupe disagree with me on this. One last try to get my point across.
I don’t see how it is unreasonable to suggest that the very real (though slight) possibility that something goes wrong with the surgery/recovery exists. I am not saying it is likely, but it is one possible outcome with a chance of happening much greater than a player getting hit by a bus. C’mon, you’re better than that.
If you don’t like my example with Foppert, how about Cesar Carrillo, or Bud Smith? Some guys don’t make it back from TJ. A small percentage, sure, but it happens. And since it happens, in my opinion, that is Strasburg’s floor right now.
Of course it could happen, it's a possibility
But for me that is in the 15 percentile range which isn’t reasonable. It is there of course.
15th percentile isn't reasonable?
1 in 7 players will fall below their 15th percentile outcome
Wording issue
Many players will fall into the 15 percentile for reasons we anticipate and those we don’t. What I’m concerned with are the more likely and more reasonable expectations. Both good and bad.
What about continued injury isn't reasonable?
Especially for a guy who went down with a torn UCL after less than 150 pro innings.
Floor
I try to predict what is a reasonable bad outcome for a player. This is not their worst case outcome. That is where I think the confusion comes in.
Just like I never predict a ceiling of ace for a pitcher. Their ceiling is a number 2 and only if they get their best case outcome, and thus exceed ceiling, do they become an ace.
ThAt’s how I see it.
But at this point another injury is completely reasonable
I consider another TJS or shoulder injury within a a season or two of Strasburg’s return to be well within reason. The recovery rate for a second TJS is much lower than it is for the first.
difference of opinion
because I definitely don’t see another TJ within a season or two as anything but the 15 percentile range.
Clinton would be proud
Basically our disagreement’s over what “is” is, well, what “floor” means to us, anyway. I’m thinking floor is worst-case scenario—within reason, without busses-and you seem to define it more as most likely worst case scenario.
Let’s just hope neither of us have to see his floor, and only get to see him reach his ceiling!
Clinton
Just like they have the Churchill cigar named after the type he smoked I really hope they don’t go the same route with Clinton!
A solid closer isn't all that valuable.
by Kenneth Arthur on Aug 30, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
If you read the full post you would see it's a comparison
the solid closer to
“But then again I see Ackley’s floor as a 280 hitter with no power and little steals playing LF or 1B.”
Friend...
I did read the whole post. And you said Strasburgs floor was still higher than Ackleys. And if Strasburgs floor is a reliever of any kind – its not higher than Ackleys.
by Kenneth Arthur on Aug 31, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Well then I suppose that would be your opinion of his floor and not mine.
We just have different opinions on the two players.
If a players floor was a 4th outfielder, yes, its less than that of a stud closer. But your opinion of said player would have to be that, and mine says that his reasonable floor is higher than that.
by Kenneth Arthur on Sep 1, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
your initial comment was in reply to my liking
Strasburg’s floor over Ackley’s floor. In that statement of mine I gave what I thought of Ackley’s floor. I’m guessing you skipped over that part.
Yeah, we probably have a difference of opinion on Ackley’s floor. I guess I just have a few more reservations on his power and D. Not that I think he can’t do it. Just that I want to see a bit more.
Am I the only one who thinks the Nationals should take the John Smoltz approach with Strasburg
except leave him in the pen to limit the ammount chances he has to tear up his arm
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Don't wory, I'm an untrained professional" WVPF
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lets play a game of would you rather
would you rather have him throw 70-75 innings or 200+. If it was me and it was my investment I would limit his chances of getting hurt and turn him into a closer
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Don't wory, I'm an untrained professional" WVPF
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Aug 27, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
A 200 inning pitcher could be average and be more valuable than a great closer. It's quite easy actually.
Jon Broxton led major league relievers in WAR last season with 2.9 per fangraphs.
This would tie him with John Danks who was 50th in WAR amongst starters.
And Strasburgs potential is that of a 7+ win pitcher.
by Kenneth Arthur on Aug 30, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Smoltz's move
Was more of necessity than safety. The Braves had moved Rocker and gotten good value for him, but Karsay was proving not to be a closer, so they needed a power arm to finish games. The rotation was good, even very good. Smoltz did come back as a starter, though, before a flare up caused him to re-evaluate his immediate role. He was offered in 2002 to move back to the rotation, but he declined that year and ended up heading up one of the best bullpens in Atlanta history.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
by biggentleben on Aug 29, 2010 5:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I would rather ...
… see how his surgery and rehab turn out. Also his 23rd and 24th birthdays.
And if he’s only throwing 70 innings for you, you’re already getting hosed on your investment.
I think they likely already made back the money from that investment
But obviously that is just a hunch
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All this overreaction makes me think that....
the Nats should have made him have TJ surgery when they drafted him.
This really isn’t anything to worry about if he’s dedicated to pitching.
LOL
You can’t really believe that a team should force a player to have a surgery that is not required at the time?
by King Billy Royal on Aug 28, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
TJ surgery is scary in the sense that it's surgery.
Beyond that, it’s probably one of the easiest and most successful sports surgeries out there.
LOL
Regardless you can’t tell somebody to have surgery on their body that is not required. If my boss told me to go have surgery that I didn’t need yet, I would tell him to go fuck himself. As any doctor will tell you, there are risks involved with ANY surgery and you should not do them unless needed.
Also, while most players come back from TJ there is still debate over whether most pitchers are the same as they were before. Some come all the way back immediately, some take a while, and some never perform on the same level.
by King Billy Royal on Aug 31, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Well no shit....
no one should be forced to have surgery. It was said tongue in cheek.
Things I believe about UCL tears, Steve Strasburg, and TJ surgery:
- UCL tears tend to happen to higher velocity guys.
- UCL tears happen to guys who throw hard breaking balls.
- There are indicators in pitching mechanics. Some don’t buy it, some think it’s overstated…but plain and simple, I think it’s there. Strasburg’s mechanics aren’t killer, but they’re not perfect either. When you’re 22 and throwing as hard as he does and throwing a ton of breaking balls…
- It tends to happen to lean pitchers more than it does to bigger guys. Not researched enough, but it’s a hypothesis I like more than most. Wood….Bedard…Riley…Burnett…Carpenter…Smoltz….all really lean pitchers, especially the non-Smoltz guys since they were all pretty young…all spent their time throwing hard fastball hard curveball as young pitchers.
Those 4 factors are factors that could make a UCL tear a somewhat predictable event…and if that’s possible then I think it’s possible that a plan could be drawn up where a preemptive TJ surgery could be carried out successfully.
On recovery:
- Conditioning and the development of a two seam-er or changeup are the keys to recovering. Conditioning should be the easy part if the pitcher actually cares to be a pitcher. The development..well….I believe guys like Matt Riley and Kerry Wood weren’t as good as they wouda/coulda/shoulda because they came back as the same pitchers they were before surgery. Neither guy bothered to develop a changeup, two seamer, or really anything in their game at all.
That’s another reason I think it’s a surgery that could be done before the injury even occurs. The recovery process is well rehearsed probably by every team in the league and a pitcher can learn a whole lot during the process. it’s just something that logically could work, but hasn’t been done/admitted publicly.
good post...
though I don’t think I can agree with your last paragraph.
I’ll just add as far as the “lean” pitcher argument, I remember a study from a few years ago that looked at body types and “survival” rate. Looked at were “thin” pitchers, “fat” pitchers, “tall” pitchers, and “short” pitchers. Survival rate didn’t look at injuries. Rather, it identifed which pitchers were still pitching past a certain age. I’m going by memory here, so I might have a detail or two wrong, but I know skinny pitchers had the highest amount attrition, tall and short pitchers were identical in their survival rate, and fat pitchers were most likely to continue pitching past the age the study used.
So your hypothesis does have some research to back it up though I’m not sure if the guys you listed would be classified as thin…when I think of thin pitchers I think of guys like Brandon McCarthy and Ross Detwiler, who interestingly enough have both had injury plagued careers…that might not be a good omen for Chris Sale.
by Alex Eisenberg on Sep 2, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I remember that study....
it’s where I first started thinking about body type in baseball. There’s no doubt in my mind that different body types tend to have different skillsets.
Also, Wood and Burnett in particular were rail thin when they were young…Carpenter too…iunno it’s definitely a subject I want to look at in due time.
No he should have it now
Get it out of the way ;-p
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by the way
I am impressed anyone pays scant attention to Rob Dibble…
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
You can't just mute the TV every time you watch a Nats game
And so unfortunately it’s hard to hide from Mr. Dibble.
I like baseball.
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by Satchel Price on Sep 1, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Dibble loses his job because of the comments
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5521129
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
I think he would've lost his job anyways
He was walking a tight rope with all the borderline offensive comments he makes, and bashing the most prized player in the organization probably was never a good idea. Certainly not a guy that many people will miss, that’s for sure.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Sep 3, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

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