Hicks and Ramos
by Con on Jul 6, 2010 1:02 AM EDT
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PrintIf I'm GMZ I think I have to sign off on the rumored Aaron Hicks and Wilson Ramos for Cliff Lee deal! I don't believe the Mariners will be able to land a better minor league prospect package than Hicks and Ramos. Now whether an Ike Davis or a Justin Smoak is available is another story. But if I'm GMZ I need to take this deal down! Thoughts on what the Mariners should do?
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Makes sense
This is the best deal the Mariners can get from anyone.
Forget about adding Ike Davis or Justiin Smoak. Neither will be available.
The Twins are in the enviable position to have the best C in Baseball and three young major league OF (Kubel – Span – Young), so losing Ramos & Hicks won´t really hurt them too much longterm. They can afford to give up the two high-end prospects and replace them with draft picks a year from now when Lee is gone as a free agent without hurting the big picture too much.
+1
If I’m the Twins, I think they have pretty solid organizational depth in the OF, even though Hicks could be special and Ramos is expendable. If I’m the M’s and this is the best deal I’ve been offered it might not get any better and is a nice haul for a few months of Lee.
Agreed
Hicks could definitely be a star, but the chance to win a World Series is rare. A rotation led by Lee and Liriano would be very scary for teams in a best of 7 series.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I highly doubt this rumor is Actually 100% true
but then again its Bill Smith
Wow Blackburn makes nearly identical money as Baker does now....
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jul 6, 2010 1:12 AM EDT reply actions
+1
I agree. This deal is too good to be true…it’s by far the best package. If the offer was made, Lee would probably be a Twin right now, because the likelihood that the Mariners get a better deal isn’t worth any risk of injury, freak accident or otherwise.
what rumor is this?
I’ve never once heard both Hicks + Ramos….
I’ve never heard Hicks mentioned in the talks.
I’ve heard Ramos/Revere
Or Ramos/Morales + low level pitcher with upside
Several sources have said this today
The most notable being some detroit radio show
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Jul 6, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
go to MLBTR
it is linked under the Lee rumors for today
by lakersdodgersyankees4life on Jul 6, 2010 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I just can't see the Twins doing this
Aaron Hicks is way too valuable of a commodity to trade for a half season of Cliff Lee, plus he is and is very likely to be a better player than anybody the Twins would get with the two comp picks.
Report has been kaboshed.
Twins put out a statement refuting it.
Jason A. Churchill has posted a report saying it’s not true.
In other words, keep going about your business. There might be some truth to some of this. Hicks / Ramos might have been what the Mariners wanted, for example. But until someone actually confirms something, we have to take Minnesota’s word for it that there is no deal in place for Lee.
As for the Mariners, they’re great at keeping secrets, so you’ll never get anything form Jack Z’s side of things.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 2:29 AM EDT reply actions
Providing source.
http://www.prospectinsider.com/view/lee-to-twins-not-done/
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 2:31 AM EDT reply actions
I could see
ramos and angel morales, is something which I could see. Don’t see Ramos and Hicks.
Morales is actually younger than Hicks, and in a level higher, and has shown more pop in his bat, and is just as fast if not faster. He’s not quite the prospect of Hicks, but could very well end up better.
I don't see this happening.
What would the Twins do with their rotaion? Trot out 6 starting pitchers and drive down Lee’s value even more? No. And none of the Twins starters project to be better relievers than starters so moving one to the bull pen would be worthless. Plus Twins have 2 bullpen arms waiting in AAA (Waldrop & Slama).
I would guess a deal would have to be similar to Ramos + Blackburn/Slowey. Or Ramos + Duensing + B prospect.
I think the Twins are too invested in Baker to want to let him go. I would prefer to let go Blackburn because Slowey’s upside is a bit higher, although I don’t know if he’ll reach it. But Blackburn has never let the Twins down when he’s pitched in games of significance.
Twins could pull a Phils
And flip one of their starters for prospects to help make up for who they gave up, for just pull a three-way. An NL team would probably give up a decent package for one of Baker/Slowey/Blackburn and see them go on to be extremely solid pitchers in an easier league. I have a feeling Slowey would pitch like a number two if you put him in the NL, for one. At least, if the Twins were to make any of the three available I would be willing to give up a couple real prospects from my Mets to pick them up, if that counts for anything.
I don’t think upside is the right word for why Slowey is better. He’s just better. He also is what he is. He does two things quite poorly: Gives up a lot of fly balls, and gives up a lot of hard contact. He balances it out with a respectable K rate and a great ability to minimize walks. I don’t see those skills changing much. It’s not like he’s suddenly going to start throwing a killer sinker or adding the 3-4 MPH necessary to be a K/IP pitcher.
All in all, he’s a 4.10 to 4.70 ERA starter from year to year, maybe with an outlier season in there somewhere. Also, he’s a bit of an injury risk. A solid #3 starter on pretty much any team, but not someone I expect to break out and become something he hasn’t shown already.
It's not enough for Lee
True ace level starters don’t go for that little mid-season, and rarely during the offseason either (unless you’re the Phils).
Sabathia brought in four players, including LaPorta who was a Top 5 of 10 prospect at the time. Why would Seattle do a deal for Lee for less than half of what Cleveland got for Sabathia? If this is the best deal Seattle gets, I highly doubt they trade Lee this season. Instead use him to sell more tickets this season, and then take the two picks in the deep 2011 draft (or even better, try to re-sign him!)
Adam Dunn: Proof that even sabermetrics doesn't have it right.
Is Lee selling more tickets?
What is the average attendence for his start vs the other pitchers on the team?
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you’re severely overestimating how much rental players are worth. I’d be shocked if they got more for Lee than a Hicks/Ramos package (and I’m not even a huge fan of either of those guys).
I think...
You are severely underestimating what rental players are going for. Again, look at the haul that Milwaukee gave up for Sabathia. Four players, one of whom was a Top 5-10 prospect.
LaPorta wasn't as highly regarded as you're claiming IIRC
and the rest of the return was a raw Brantley who upped his stock significantly since then and two filler guys (Jackson and Bryson. In fact, Brantley was a PTBNL and played well after Sabathia went to Milwaukee.
Personally, I would rather have a Hicks/Ramos 2010 package than a LaPorta 2009 package – and that’s without knowing how LaPorta turns out (& i still think he’s going to hit plenty). The LaPorta deal was one good player, an interesting player and org. filler. Hicks & Ramos trumps it, IMO… but then, I would be shocked if Seattle gets that kind of return.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
Also, LaPorta was a fast-riser who was taken as a BPA in the draft. He was an asset coming to maturity in value, but the Brewers had nowhere to put him (with Fielder at 1B, no DH, and the fact that LaPorta was terrible in the OF). The Brewers also had the ultimate play-for-now justification because they hadn’t even cracked .500 for however many years. I don’t think that such situations are conspiring to drive any team to pay a top-25 type prospect for Lee. I think a top-50 guy and one or two guys in the 80-honorable mention conversation will be the ultimate price.
So, the number of players is more important than the quality of those players?
Freude schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Freude!
Matt LaPorta
was a Top 5 or 10 prospect at the time he was traded to Cleveland from Milwaukee. What is Hicks? 20s-30s? Plus, the Indians got three other players. So Cleveland received not just more quantity, but quality as well.
Michael Brantley
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Jul 6, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
That is what I recalled...
Nobody ever thought his bat was so good that it overshadowed how mediocre his glove was. He was considered top 20 but I don’t think top 5-10.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You could probably slide him anywhere from 10-30, depending on how good you thought his bat would be.
But it seemed like he had real DH potential, not a good thing.
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee = FA
He’s come out and said he wants to be a free agent… Milwaukee had some thought (however tiny it may be) that they could try and resign him, but I think Lee has done the Mariners a disservice by saying he WILL test FA
To me, his value has to be knocked slightly be the fact that you will not have the advantage of resigning him ahead of time, even if you get a half year of one of the best pitchers in baseball
Back up.
Lee’s agent said some things, but where does that mean that they wont re-sign with the team traded to? The comments made seemed to be more directed at the Mariners.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Listening to KFAN
And they were speculating that Slowey/Blackburn would be in the deal and the Mariners would add Aardsma/League
"We're gonna do this f*ucking thing over again cuz I just f*cked it up.....oh, we're live, I didn't know that" Bert Blyleven
by smoooooth on Jul 6, 2010 11:29 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
League
Hopefully they get Aardsma because League is terrible. He has a decent arm but no brain for pitching. Jays fans couldn’t have been happier when they fleeced the Mariners into giving us Morrow.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree, League is a very good reliever
The Jays still made a great deal in getting Morrow for League and Johermyn Chavez, who’s actually playing quite well in the minors right now, too.
But League put up a 3.95 xFIP in ‘08, a 3.16 xFIP in ’09, and he’s at 3.45 for 2010.
He’ll probably never retain the insane whiff percentage (14%) and contact rate (71%) marks that he put up last season, but he’s still a better than average reliever with his ability to miss bats and induce ground balls.
I’d take League over Aardsma any day, Aardsma can miss bats but he’s an extreme fly ball pitcher with shaky command. I don’t like that combination.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
League usually has Rob Johnson catching him
so he wont throw his splitter. It’s also been said that they have altered his delivery a little.
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Jul 6, 2010 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, he's seen his GB rate jump up to the mid-60's with the change in approach
So all is not lost.
League is still a very solid reliever, and a superior option than Aardsma.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
League
The Jays wanted this guy to seize the closers/setup roles numerous times and he didn’t have the head for it. Some guys can handle the pressure, and after watching League for years, I can say that I never saw him capable of doing such. He always had great stuff but seemed to unwind in big pressure situations. Some guys just don’t have the moxy to be back end bullpen guys.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
Now, because of my work schedule I don’t get to watch Mariner games, but I do check their box scores nightly. It seems to be that League is prone to giving up the big hit. I was a big League fan (or at least his numbers) when Seattle made the trade to get him, but now that I see his outings every time, I see how much of a liability he can be. He just blew another game last night. He really wasn’t pitching well this season until a hot June got his ERA down to about 3. But I still don’t view him as a back of the rotation pitcher yet, I see him more of a mop-up guy until he proves otherwise. Of his 12 Save/Hold chances this season, he has blown 4 of them. 33%. Plus, four of his five losses are not Blown Saves or Holds, but just flat out losses where he came into the game with it tied and lost the game. And the 5th one was a game where he entered with a 5-1 lead and game up 5 runs quickly to lose that game…. so it wasn’t even a SaveOpp that he blew that time.
Maybe the Twins are willing to include Hicks if the Mariners are sending additional talent?
I’ve heard some of these rumblings before, I think maybe from Jason Churchill.
Maybe instead of it merely being Lee for Ramos/Hicks, it something like Lee and Aardsma/Lopez for Ramos and Hicks?
This is all speculation, but someone like Aardsma could fit into their bullpen, and getting pieces beyond Lee would probably help the Twins to feel okay about dealing Hicks.
And let’s be honest, here.
A playoff rotation of Cliff Lee, Francisco Liriano, Scott Baker and Carl Pavano would be really, really, really scary. And as someone who wants to see the White Sox compete all year, and it would really piss me off.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
I know we have talked about this topic a lot Satchel, but just out of curiousity,
If you were to rank Wilson Ramos as a prospect today, where would you rank him? Part 2 of the question, where do you think he would rank on average with the big progrnosticators on a top 100 list? Do you entertain the idea that he wouldn’t rank in the top 100 at all, if prospect lists came out today, updated for the top 100?
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I'd put him in the lower part of the top-100, but I think that people are overreacting a bit
His .237 BABIP is insane for a player in Triple-A, even for a slow-footed catcher like Ramos. He’s not a top-level prospect at this point, and they can’t simply include Ramos and some filler and say that it’s comparable to the package that Milwaukee got for Sabathia.
But if the Twins are including both Hicks and Ramos, then I think that’s a really good return for Seattle, even if they have to include Aardsma or Lopez, who are struggling at the moment anyways.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I think on the surface, Hicks and Ramos is more than fair.
But when you look at it in context to what Jack is trying to do, I can see why he’d keep the offer on the table until he talked to some more teams. There are 17 teams within 5 games of the playoffs. Potentially 5-7 teams that are going to seriously bid on Lee. If Jack can fill needs more apt to what he’s looking for, he’ll turn down Hicks and Ramos without missing a beat.
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I'm not saying he should take the offer today if there's the chance to extract more from someone else or Minnesota themselves
But if he walks away from this thing with Hicks, Ramos and another piece or two, that’s a win for him in my opinion.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If that deal went down, as a Mariners fan I'd be tepidly disappointed.
But I would take it in good faith that it was the best offer Jack had, and its much better than hanging onto Cliff Lee.
My only problem is getting a struggling catcher that doesn’t draw walks who is not major league ready, and a 5-tool outfielder that is 2-3 years away. I’m not a big fan of “5-tool” based on tools that haven’t yet developed kind of players for 1, and for 2, I’d be much more elated if Jack came away with a power hitting corner infielder or a SP worthy of a deal for Cliff Lee.
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, if the Mets come out offering Wilmer Flores and some other nice pieces
Then I wouldn’t be necessarily opposed to taking that offer, Flores could be pretty special with the bat.
But if he’s not at first, what are the M’s going to do with Ackley, Franklin, Liddi, Noriega, Triunfel, and Martinez when the time comes?
Unless they can land a top-level hitting prospect, and yeah I consider Flores that kind of player, I think that Ramos/Hicks/Prospect is a solid return.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Noriega and Martinez need to preform first
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Jul 6, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
The Flores situation would probably work itself out pretty nicely in 2-3 years.
In two years I expect Ackley and Figgins to be in the infield. Nick Franklin in 3 years maybe. But a lot can happen between now and then that’s not nearly as guaranteed as Ichiro and Gutierrez. And I’m a big Saunders fan. If you have to sacrifice left field defense though to put a bat in the outfield like Liddi or Triunfel or the potential of Flores – I take it any day of the week.
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You would be "tepidly disappointed" at turning Aumont, Juan Ramirez and Gillies into Ramos and Hicks+?
Prepare to be very disappointed then.
Bullpen Banter
www.bullpenbanter.com
twitter: @alskor
Yes, I would be.
Is that okay with you?
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 7, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
What the Hell...
are you smoking???? Seattle give up another piece along with Lee? Not going to happen unless the Twins add in Revere plus another player.
I know this is a prospect site and all, but a lot of you are missing out on the real world, where prospects are not as valuable as proven Major League aces. I don’t mean a back of the rotation SP, I don’t just mean a #1 SP. Cliff Lee is a true ace. And you think that Seattle should throw in their closer along with the SP to get just two prospects in return? Hicks is a decent prospect (even with his high K%) but Ramos is struggling in AAA and even before this season, his ceiling was not all that high. Maybe a 300/340/430 slash line or so. He would be a solid major league regular if he put that up. But nothing special.
I somewhat agree...
People really tend to overvalue prospects. Guys like Lee aren’t going to go cheap this year, and guys like Prince and Adrian Gonzalez are going to go for a lot next year.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think a lot of it also has to do with overvaluing your OWN prospects.
Tell a Twins fan that the Mets shouldn’t give up Meija for a rental and they’ll perhaps think that’s a fair trade. Tell them they should give up Hicks and its a whole different story. As a Mariners fan, if we were competing, would I trade Michael Pineda? NO WAY! But I can look outside the box and at least see why I’m biased towards Pineda.
That’s us though. Us as in the people who come comment on minor league ball. The majority of fans do NOT care about players that aren’t playing for the majors yet. Unless you’re Stephen Strasburg, they just don’t care.. and even then they sometimes don’t care.
I know other Mariners fans who don’t know who Dustin Ackley even is. And that’s the majority of people who go to the ballpark.
You can look at a GM like Ruben Amaro, and I feel like he’ll do what makes the fans happy over what makes the long term future of the team better. Certain GM’s would definitely trade Dom Brown for Cliff Lee. And heck we can throw in Jose Lopez too.
I’m not saying its right, but it can happen.
I also think its important in that aspect to understand why Jack Z wouldn’t be as blown over by a Hicks/Ramos package as people here would. You’re talking about a catcher who is at least a year away, and potentially not as good as Adam Moore, and an outfielder who is 2-3 years away and all tools for probably your starting pitcher in the All-Star game. It would be a disaster for Jack if he traded that away and didn’t get players that could either be 2011 starters, or a future perennial all-star. Hicks isn’t quite there yet. He’ll be all over the map on prospect lists.
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
You think it's only us fanboys that value prospects?
The trend is there. MLB teams are protecting their prospects from being involved in the big trades. Most teams have started to recognize that having cheap top talents is far more valuable than acquiring players. The Halladay deal is the most interesting one I can recall where a team gave up a lot of it’s farm talent within the last few years. Granderson didn’t get anything amazing (despite the Austin Jackson fans out there). Even the first Lee deal didn’t net Philadelphia a whole lot.
Now, when we’re talking about a situation like this, I would agree with you that a team that’s looking to make the push has to make sacrifices. Adding those necessary marginal wins is expensive, both in money and in talent. You can’t get Gold for Garbage, it doesn’t work that way. Jack Z is not going to take a mediocre offer just to move Cliff Lee. If it came down to settling for something asinine, Jack would just as soon keep Lee and take the compensatory draft picks after Lee leaves in free agency.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Relax
First off, did I call you a fanboy or say it is only people on this site that overvalue prospects? Please stop trying to pick a fight as there is nothing sadder then an online bully. Now that I have said that, let me explain what I was saying.
I am stating that the elite players will go for a lot more then people think. Manny Ramirez landed Boston Jason Bay. CC Sabathia landed Matt Laporta. Roy Halladay landed Drabek, D’arnaud, and Wallace (via Oakland). Holliday landed Carlos Gonzalez, and Houston Street. Holliday next landed Brett Wallace. Cliff Lee landed 4 decent prospects including Knapp who was highly regarded at the time, even though he wasn’t tearing up the AL as he was the year prior. While teams do appreciate landing keeping cheap talent, some of those in contention are willing to pay up to win.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm quite relaxed. Thanks for asking.
Drop the pained act. The other thread is over.
Besides, I’m mostly agreeing with you anyway. All I was trying to say is that it’s not just us who overvalue prospects.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said it was.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Well... try not to use vague terms like "people" then.
Especially when the poster you’re agreeing with is mentioning, specifically, this prospect site.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL
People = fanboys? Ummmmmmmm….okay then.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I called us fanboys. Not you.
Why’re you up in arms about that?
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay
I guess I misinterpreted your comment. No worries honey bunny!!!! ;)
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
by King Billy Royal on Jul 6, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll respectfully disagree, given the value of Hicks and Ramos.
Hicks is a top-level outfield prospect with very legitimate star potential, and Ramos is a very good catching prospect that doesn’t necessarily have to be that good with the bat to be a solid regular.
You’d have to be absolutely nuts to believe that you’ll get those kind of players with compensation picks, and that’s without factoring in the roughly $6-7M to sign those picks and pay Lee through 2010.
The Twins probably include another low level piece or two along with Hicks/Ramos, but you’d have to be pretty nuts to believe that isn’t a good offer for Lee. Honestly, if the M’s turn down a Hicks/Ramos/Bromberg offer or something like that, then the Twins should look elsewhere. Go talk to Arizona about Dan Haren or something.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Ramos has not done much this season to help his trade value.
Nor is he any different from Adam Moore other than being 2-3 years younger. And though i like what Hicks can become he’s just not doing enough for me to get excited about this trade.
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Jul 6, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
But having two good catching prospects is never a bad thing, and frankly, the M's don't have a guy like Hicks in their system right now
Most of their best prospects are infielders, and their toolsy OF prospects aren’t remotely as polished as Hicks is at this point.
I mean, what kind of package would excite you, if Ramos, Hicks and some filler doesn’t?
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
From the Twins? Miguel Sano or Kyle Gibson are more exciting than Hicks, I would have to agree.
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, Gibson would have to be included as a PTBNL
And I’m just pretty skeptical that either one of those guys is going to be available for a rental in Lee.
And it does appear that Hicks could very well be available, though.
I like baseball.
I write for Beyond the Box Score and The Hardball Times Fantasy
by Satchel Price on Jul 6, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think you thought Hicks was a possibility a week ago either.
I’m not saying its fair, but I do think that a bidding war will drive a team to overpay for Lee and everybody will be quite surprised by what the M’s get for him.
by Kenneth Arthur on Jul 6, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Albert Pujols and Carlos Santana
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Jul 6, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Jack is magic! Getting two teams to give up prospects for one guy only going to one team!
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call Hicks "polished".
He has work to do. Ackley is far more polished than Hicks is, right now. I agree with Hicks’ potential being superior to anybody in the Mariners system not named Ackley, Pineda, or Franklin, but he’s got a long way to go yet before he grasps his stardom.
And, no, I’m not saying I wouldn’t trade for him. His potential is sexy.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? Because Halman is a hell of a toosly athlete.
I don’t think Hicks potential is greater than Halman’s. Hicks is just more polished. Halman will never live up to his potential because he has not learned how to not swing at crap. Hicks might.
So the argument is not really about potential at all, but whether or not someone has a good enough chance of getting there.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions
you said it
I agree with Hicks’ potential being superior to anybody in the Mariners system not named Ackley, Pineda, or Franklin
Fine fine. Caught in my own logic. Mea culpa.
Are you going to stick with your absolute point about Hicks having more potential than ANYBODY in the Mariners system, or is my Halman point going to work?
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
A measure of fairness
I love that people are arguing that this deal is too much while others are saying its too little.
Personally, I’m on the too little side myself. I have said it before on here, but I don’t get the Ramos love. I don’t see any power, and he hasnt been able to hit for average in AAA either.
Catchers who can produce even a league average bat are highly valuable.
Then again, I don’t know Ramos’ defensive reputation.
He seems like a above average contact, low walk, okay strikeout, ball in play type hitter, with a touch of gap power. This means his offense is going to be completely driven by his BABIP, which is what we’re seeing now. Jose Lopez is probably his ceiling.
Fans are typically idiots.
by The Typical Idiot Fan on Jul 6, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Lopez
is a very good comp for Ramos. I don’t think that is his ceiling, but more of an 80% comp. He can hit for more average than Lopez but won’t have the same power. From what I saw of him, he looks like he could put up old Delmon numbers .285-.300 Ave .325—.340OBP 12-16HR 25-30 2B. Ramos is at least average defensively, with footwork, game calling, and just general staff handling his weaknesses, but nothing that stands out as poor.
"We're gonna do this f*ucking thing over again cuz I just f*cked it up.....oh, we're live, I didn't know that" Bert Blyleven
I should also note
that Ramos is still kind of raw. He has missed some time and should really spend the whole year at AAA and possibly start next year there as well just to work on his deficiencies behind the plate and in his approach to hitting.
"We're gonna do this f*ucking thing over again cuz I just f*cked it up.....oh, we're live, I didn't know that" Bert Blyleven
Even better
Looks like Smoak was available after all!
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