Porcello's Struggles
Coming up, Rick Porcello was obviously one of the most anticipated and praised pitching prospects in recent memory. Drafted out of high school in 2007 by the Tigers, he figured to be the best prep arm out of that class (despite falling down to 24th overall because of bonus demands). Baseball America ranked him 4th in that 2007 draft... Here's the draft scouting report they had on him back then (this is paid content, but it's also three years old and a single scouting report... as an aside, you should subscribe to BA for their draft stuff alone, they do two hundred of these every year):
The top pitcher in the long awaited, much anticipated high school Class of 2007, Porcello was tabbed as a can't-miss prospect by the time he was a 15-year-old on the showcase circuit. His maternal grandfather, Sam Dente, played shortstop in the majors, appearing in the 1954 World Series with the Indians. Porcello has shown steady improvement during his prep career, and was pitching at his best heading down the stretch, tossing a seven-inning perfect game for the nation's No. 1 high school team in May. He's long, lean, athletic and projectable with a clean delivery. His fastball sits at 93-95, touching 98. He holds his velocity deep into outings. He throws a tight curveball at 74-76 and a harder, sharp-breaking slider at 80-82. He shows feel for his changeup. He can spot his fastball to both sides of the plate, and mixes his pitches effectively. He tends to finish his delivery across his body, and if he improved his extension, his stuff could have better life, which would make him profile as a true top-of-the-rotation pitcher. He still is likely to be the first high school pitcher selected.
As an pro in 2008, his fastball and changeup were hyped, and the Tigers were rumored to be restricting Porcello's slider use so that he could focus on his FB/CH/CB. With the restrictions, his peripherals were only okay as a 19-year old in the high-A Florida State League. While he had a 2.66 ERA in 24 starts, he also only had a 72/33 K/BB over 125 innings. This is where I want to branch off my post for a moment, because things got interesting in the following offseason.
A lot of people started putting Porcello into their top 20s, top 15s, and even top 10s that winter. I'm included in that bunch, as I placed him at #14, and was actually ridiculed for it being too conservative. I became somewhat vocal in my criticisms about Porcello around that point, and my criticisms were amplified when the Tigers announced that he would join their MLB starting rotation in April 2009.
Porcello's supporters claimed that his lack of strikeouts were due to his inability to use his slider, and that the pitch (which was now becoming a sort of unseen legend) would lead to dominant strikeout numbers. His detractors cited Madison Bumgarner (this was before he started throwing 75 MPH heaters, obviously ;-)) as evidence that, even if Porcello only had his plus fastball, he should have been racking up strikeouts in A-ball. In a FanPost about Brett Anderson and Trevor Cahill, I brought Porcello into the discussion:
The guy that I’m really concerned with is Porcello. Yeah, we’ve heard all the complaints about him before, and I’ve said and repeated most of them myself. But now, if he starts in the majors, all of those concerns and complaints are amplified tenfold. I used Jeremy Sowers as a worst-case stat comp for him earlier this offseason, and I think the likelihood of that comp becoming a reality (at least for this season) now increases significantly. His 6+ K/9 at high-A is NOT going to translate well to the majors. Hopefully that secret slider can get him some strikeouts, or this could get ugly.
What followed was me eating my words, as Porcello admittedly looked very good in 2009, and drew praise from a lot of different people. His strikeouts weren't there, but he was a 20 year old rookie, so that's sort of nitpicking. He did what he does pretty well, in getting groundballs and displaying plus control. The slider sort of receded to the background, as did all the arguments about his plus "stuff".
This year, things have taken a step backwards, obviously, and Porcello has looked about as bad as possible. The curious thing here is that his FIP has actually improved slightly over last year (it wasn't stellar to begin with). I think what we could be seeing is that low K/BB + low K/9 combo start to kill him a bit. He's still getting groundballs, and he's still controlling the ball really well, but he's gotten hit hard.
Now, let's take a look at that slider. After shelving it to focus on his curve, Porcello threw that curve about 8% of the time according to FanGraphs. This year, he seems to have scrapped it completely, going to it only 0.1% of the time, and instead siding with his slider on 14.4% of his pitches, up from just 5% in 2009. His changeup has been used without any drastic changes, at about 8-9%. The interesting thing here is that Porcello's fastball, which was 14 runs in 2009, is now worth -3. And, of course, that slider has become less valuable, too, and it's now his worst pitch according to FanGraphs.
It seems improbable that a pitcher's stuff could just disappear, but almost immediately after becoming a pro, that's what seemed to happen to Porcello. My question, and I've admittedly taken a long time to get here, is this: How concerned should we be with Porcello, and how can we apply that to prospecting? Obviously, Porcello is still only 21 years old, and while his stats scream Sowers v2.0, he has (or had?) oodles and oodles more stuff than Sowers could ever dream of. There's still plenty of time for Porcello to turn it around, but can we reasonably expect him to suddenly become a dominant strikeout pitcher? Did Detroit ruin his front-of-the-rotation ceiling by rushing him to the majors?
Now, just lastly, I realize that this is all about a major leaguer and not a prospect, but it's still very much relevant, I think. People here (and in the MLB) are so quick to make excuses for prospects, or brush over flaws. While Porcello was obviously an elite prospect in 2008-09, we overlooked some troubling numbers, and the Tigers didn't do him any favors by allowing him to skip three levels. We have far too much faith in prospects sometimes, and clearly, especially in this case, a little more seasoning could have really helped. I don't think the lack of Detroit's logic here can be overstated; when you have an elite, big-name prospect, especially one coming off a developmental year, there's absolutely no reason to expect this much out of him. Going forward, I think it provides a cautionary tale to both teams and fans (maybe one that the Marlins should read before entrusting Mike Stanton a big league job). Hopefully, Porcello's story can recover before he regresses even further.
47 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
He was rushed
And never mess around with a young pitcher’s mix of pitches unless you are adding a change up.
Fat man is no more,
Bursting on through Heaven's Door
Come on in, says Bill
Kid is 21 years old, and pitching in the Majors after being rushed at an extreme rate
I’m cutting him about as much slack as I ever will. Love his stuff, k rate is bound to be low, but he’s got a really strong FIP, and we cannot forget that in all honesty, the kid should be playing in AA/AAA ball right now.
You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220
Yeah, I'd agree with that
The problems for me come with wondering how his stuff will ever approach major league-level good. How can it catch up without that development time, especially if it’s so far behind right now?
by RedSoxFaithful on Jun 7, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The kid's still developing
It just happens to be occurring at a higher level. He’s working with the team’s best pitching coaching staff in the organization, as well as being able to pick the brains of his various veteran teammates. I’d argue that what he’s getting out of being with the club is far more valuable than what he would be getting out of dominating AA hitters
You’re name has 2k9 in it — what are you some 8 year-old who makes Pillsbury Doughboy cookies and jerks off to that bullshit video game with Tim Lincecum on the cover--
Frederick0220
No excuses
It’s HIS fault he was rushed, he aand Boras. They’re the ones that demanded a ML contract for a high schooler.
As I wrote when that contract was signed: Boras and Porcello’s greed will end up screwing up his career.
by BlueEyes_Austin on Jun 7, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really
Even with the MLB contract, he could have spent the first half of 2009 in AA or something. Yeah, it would have still been rushing him, but he would at least have been able to make the jump to the majors coming off an actual stint of his repertoire, and not a developmental one that restricted him from an entire pitch. There was no reason to start him out of ST, no matter how desperate Detroit was for a starter. They could have found Zach Miner or something.
by RedSoxFaithful on Jun 7, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This
The sinker will probably rebound, and he’s been a victim of poor infield defense at 2B as well as an above average BABIP. You would not believe the bloop hits he’s let in.
President, Vice President and Secretary of the Casey Crosby Fanclub.
Assist. Editor, Minor League Division, Bless You Boys
Okay
I think the point of the post is being missed. I realize he hasn’t been terrible, and I realize that he’ll probably rebound.
My concerns are with his strikeout numbers, and whether or not they will ever exceed a Sowers-esque level, and whether or not they will ever approach the future-ace level that was advertised three years ago.
by RedSoxFaithful on Jun 7, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not perfectly clear
Substitute “stuff” for “strikeout numbers”.
by RedSoxFaithful on Jun 7, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
His FIP is fine
but his xFIP is 5.12, because though he’s given up an unusual amount of bloop hits, and let in a surprising number of runners home, his homer totals are probably unsustainably low
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
fangraphs
I tend to think that the pitch values are pretty silly. Take the case of Porcello . . .the guy had a 3.96 ERA last year and is running at 5.25 this year. Obviously his pitch values are going to look worse, but that doesn’t mean his stuff has gotten worse.
+1
The one interesting thing is that after all the discussion about his curveball in the minors and the Tigers refusing to let him use it, he apparently seems to still not be throwing it at all.
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
SL
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
Very similar stuff to Cahill
Cahill is a maddening pitcher to watch because sometimes he has too much movement and good teams lay off. But this season he’s been more consistent with the curveball and a very good change up. Throwing his 4 seamer more topping out at 94 mph. Obviously still a work in progress with control, but he’s been solid so far.
love cahill
Cahill and Anderson as a 1-2 is so nice.
"The key to winning baseball games is pitching, fundamentals, and three run homers."
by fourfingerwoo on Jun 13, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Good post RSF
This is a good topic, something that reminds me of a discussion I had with siddfinch on one of the daily threads a couple of weeks ago. It started with Matzek and Turner and who was in the better situation developmentally with their respective team. I said then that I’m not sure how much development the Tigers should actually get credited with for their young arms because they’ve pushed them so hard and fast recently. Verlander has succeeded with great stuff and velocity, but he was a college guy and had a small hiccup along the way. With Porcello they took a HS arm who had a good first full year in pro ball and jumped him to the majors awfully quick. Like the poster above mentions, the A’s did the same thing Trevor Cahill though he had a bit more minor league experience even though it’s possibly Porcello had more pitching experience overall as Cahill came late to pitching. With both guys I wonder how much of their potential they will be able to reach because instead of having that extra development time in the minors to work on secondary stuff they were forced to do so against major league hitters. Teams are trying to win at the major league level, so you can’t let a guy go out every 5th day and experiment by throwing mostly breaking stuff in an effort to improve it. It’s those smaller luxuries that pitching prospects are afforded in the minors that they don’t have at the MLB level I’m very much against pushing young arms so aggressively.
I’m going to be working on a piece in the next month or so on pitching development, but I know without diving into the research too much yet that I love what Tampa does with HS pitchers. Taking things slow both to get them through the injury nexus with the least amount of damage while building the innings load and giving them plenty of time to work out the kinks. I’m very much in favor of at the very least one year of upper level pitching experience though a full year in AA and AAA is preferable.
I hope both of these guys can overcome the aggressive promotions to reach a good portion of their potential but call me skeptical at this point. Plenty of time for them to prove me wrong, and I hope they do so.
http://bullpenbanter.com
Great post
Really nice. I’d like to follow up lots more, but it’ll have to wait until after i’m not on the iPhone. Rec in the meantime!
"In the event of a significant release of oil, an accurate estimation of the spill's total volume . . . is essential in providing preliminary data to plan and initiate cleanup operations." - Page 2 of British Petroleum's regional plan for dealing with offshore oil leaks.
by siddfynch on Jun 7, 2010 6:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I assume he means
bust him down to A ball and rebuild him. I don’t think things are going to be that drastic with Porcello though.
http://bullpenbanter.com
I Wouldn't Disagree
He’s still just 21, how can it hurt him? Unless he’s just an arrogant jerk who can’t see that he needs fundamental help, I think it’s a great idea.
Good Post
I blame Scott Boras but for a different reason. Porcello was big time overhyped — which got him a huge contract. But, I think all of those teams ahead of the Tigers passed on him for a reason and it wasn’t just money. I realize he had big demands but I think a lot of those teams thought he wasn’t as good as advertised. Obviously, a middle of the rotation starter in the majors is still worth a lot (and a lot more than he was paid) but I’m inclined to believe that SOMEONE else would have given him the $10M or whatever if they thought the hype was accurate. And, man, that BA scouting report above seems like a huge helping of BS. If I remember correctly, his draft video had him more in the 91-92 range than the 95-98 range. I have never once seen anything to make me think he has top of the rotation potential.
Porcello himself is quoted as saying “I’m not much of strikeout pitcher.” When will we just believe him? His avg fb is 90.6 from the right-side. How many guys like that K more than about 6-7 per IP (I realize that there are some like Webb and Marcum but those guys are few and far between). Bottom line, he’s a lot closer to Jon Garland for me than he is to Brandon Webb or Roy Halladay. That’s just my opinion…
I think the Jon Garland comparison is right on.
Actually Garland had a better K rate in the minors at a similar age to Porcello. Jon even had success at the AAA level and still needed some time the bullpen and a few growth years before he hit his stride. I think Porcello, or any pitcher this day and age should be happy to have a career arc similar to Garland he will win over 175 big league games and make over $50 million dollars before his career is over. I would take that. I expect a peak similar to Garland’s with 17+ wins in years when he is on good teams but never any serious Cy Young consideration.
"Sometimes people get cut."
One thing everyone seems to assume without reason
Is that the breaking stuff a guy shows in the amateur ranks will automatically transfer over to the professional ranks without ever taking into account the fact that amateur baseballs are different than professional ones. Some guys completely lose their breaking stuff once they start using the smaller seamed pro balls. That’s why it was so stupid to just assume that Porcello had this plus slider that he wasn’t using. Maybe the Tigers really did want him to stop using it, but no one should have assumed that it’d just be there once he was allowed to use it again. No one had ever seen him throw it with the pro ball and apparently it just wasn’t the same.
+1
I don’t believe 98% of the “so and so can’t use xx pitch” stuff. The only time in recent memory that I really have noticed a difference is with Hanson — who totally blew up after alledgedly not being able to throw his slider while he worked on his CB. Now both pitches are pretty awesome…
Yep
That’s another that actually turned out to be true. Of course, people weren’t trying to excuse Felix’s poor stats by saying “he can’t throw his slider.” It was more of a “just think how good he’ll be when he can throw his slider.” I hate it when people excuse lack of Ks by saying “he can’t throw his best breaking pitch.”
I'm not really surprised
A pitcher in his early 20’s struggling in the majors? Not shocked – no one should be. I think the “he was rushed argument” was only valid if he never had success in the majors. He had an extended period of success last year – in fact the year he had last year was a success overall.
Porcello’s supporters claimed that his lack of strikeouts were due to his inability to use his slider, and that the pitch (which was now becoming a sort of unseen legend) would lead to dominant strikeout numbers.
I was one of the most vocal around here in support of Porcello leading up to his high ranking and debut last year. I don’t ever remember seeing anyone saying his K #’s would be dominant, only that they should improve to a more reasonable level. The hyperbole levels around here can be a sense of wonder at times.
He’s a young kid – he’s gonna struggle for periods. So far he’s done quite a bit of that this year. Pitchers, regardless of development path in the minors, more often times than not will take a few years to stabilize at the major league level. Many times we’ll see them bounce back and forth between the minors and majors for the first few years – even if he does get sent back down, it doesn’t necessarily mean he was “rushed”.
I haven’t seen much of him pitch this year, so I don’t really know what the exact issues are, but suspect he’ll be sent down at some point if he doesn’t turn it around soon. In my mind, this is still way too early to declare… anything.
Surely
You would agree he was overhyped? He was said to be a generational arm and the best HS pitching prospect since Beckett. To me, regardless of how he eventually develops, both of those things were clear hyperbole.
All depends on your perspective
Like I said – to early to declare…. anything. If the Tigers would have left him in the minors, he may still have people saying that, but as we all know he’s no longer a prospect and people who talk about prospects have moved on to the newest flavor of the month.
Re:
I guess we just disagree. I agree that it’s too early to call him a bust and it’s too early to say he’ll never be an elite SP — but, to me, it’s not too early to say that the scouting reports / hype are no where close to the pitcher he is today. I don’t feel that I need any more evidence to come to a conclusion there.
well...
i think the scouting reports on his HS fastball velocity were off, Porcello even said before he pitched for the Tigers that he was sinker-baller more in the 90-low 90s range than the mid 90s.
The breaking pitch was either over-hyped or lost somewhere along the way (nixa37 brings up a good point that a good HS breaking pitch doesn’t necessarily translate), as it doesn’t seem to fool anybody nor does he have great command. The change-up is good but not a strikeout pitch.
But remember that a lot of his scouting hype, that I recall, was the command and polish, so it was correct in that sense. He was as probably as safe a pick for a HS pitcher that you could ever draft.
Agreed
The Beckett comp kinda loses its validity seeing as Porcello was up 2 years younger – Beckett didn’t pitch a full season in the majors till he was 24.
That was because of injuries
He threw 4 games in the minors (all as part of rehab assignments) after the age of 21.
Valid point
but at the same time, the reasons are secondary, despite what they are, it’s still trying to compare an apple to orange. We’ll never know what would have happened with Beckett had he pitched a full year in the majors 2002 and we’ll never know what would have happened with Porcello had he not been up til next year.
I'm not sure the reports were off, it's more a case of the Prospectors were off
The velocity is there, he just prefers to work with a 2-seam. And the breaking ball is there but there were reports about ability to throw it for a strike. Many of the websites gloss over these.
I won’t be surprised to see his K’s increase the next few years and his numbers to improve.
Infield
One of the main things people are missing with Porcello (not the only thing), is that the Tigers went from playing an infield of Inge/Everett/Polanco/Cabrera in many of their games last year to playing Inge/Santiago/Sizemore-Guillen/Cabrera this year.
Santiago is a far worse fielder than Everett.
Sizemore and Guillen are FAR worse than Polanco.
Inge is still recovering from double knee surgeries, IMO.
Basically, you’ve got a guy inducing groundballs at a huge rate with an infield that is suddenly significantly worse at converting them to outs.
His GB% is down to 48% from 54%, but his BABIP is .345 compared to .281 on an identical LD%. To me, that says that there are just a ton of grounders that might very well have been caught last year that are not getting caught this year. Some luck, some maybe harder hit, some going past the statue-like figures of Santiago/Sizemore/Guillen.
Rob
Then again
His FB% is way up while his HR% is way down, which is quite unlikely to continue.
Re:
You are assuming that his .281 BABIP is closer to what his BABIP should be than the .345 one. I’m not sure I totally agree. As the league gets better scouting reports on him and more guys see him, I would expect his BABIP to go up. That’s why a lot of pitchers tend to break out in their third year where they have time to adjust to the adjustments.
I still see a guy who has decent but not overwhelming stuff. Until he gets pinpoint accuracy of his stuff and/or and very good secondary pitches he’s probably a back/middle of the rotation guy.
True a .345 BABIP seems legit
a .281 BABIP doesn’t sound so legit.
Major overreaction post
The kid will be fine.
I wonder how many HOF pitchers you would have written off by now due to sophmore struggles.
JOSH THOLE > carlos santana
Re:
So because some HoF players initially struggled that means Porcello will be a HoF? Or that he will still be elite? That doesn’t make sense.
I’m not saying there isn’t time to turn it around. I’m not saying he wont ever be elite. I’m just saying that the stuff is nowhere near as good as advertised. It’s amazing how forgiving the prospect community can be when a guy had a lot of pre-draft hype…
I'm not writing him off due to "sophomore struggles"
I’m not writing him off at all, I’m just acknowledging what he is, not based only on 2 months of numbers, but based on every professional inning he’s ever thrown.
You’re not one for actually reading posts, are you?
by RedSoxFaithful on Jun 9, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
here's a question--food for thought--
which pitcher do you know of young or not that DOESN’T struggle? he just needs to work out his speed bumps.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"

by 


















