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Tampa Bay Rays Top 20 Prospects for 2011

Tampa Bay Rays Top 20 Prospects for 2011

UPDATED January 13, 2011 to account for Garza trade.

The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2011 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!

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QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:

Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.

Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.

Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don't make it at all.

A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters. Many Grade A pitching prospects fail to develop, often due to injuries. Some Grade C pitching prospects turn out much better than expected.

Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise coming from me, and some C+ prospects turn out very well indeed.

Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.


Tampa Bay Rays Top 20 For 2011

1) Jeremy Hellickson, RHP, Grade A: Best right-handed pitching prospect in baseball.

2) Matt Moore, LHP, Grade A: Best left-handed pitching prospect in baseball not named Aroldis.

3) Desmond Jennings, OF, Grade B+: Love the speed, worried about durability.

4) Jake McGee, LHP, Grade B+: The future closer.

5) Chris Archer, RHP, Grade B+: Acquired in Garza trade; would be the top pitching prospect in many systems.

6) Josh Sale, OF, Grade B: I buy into the bat despite lack of pro data.

7) Alex Colome, RHP, Grade B: Needs some refinement, but an excellent arm and could be number two behind Moore next year.

8) Alex Torres, LHP, Grade B: Command is an issue, but I love the strikeouts.

9) Enny Romero, LHP, Grade B: High grade from me for a rookie ball pitcher, but has the stuff you want and great numbers.

10) Hak-Ju Lee, SS, Grade B: Love the glove, and I think the bat has more potential than people think. That is a minority opinion but I will stick with it for now.

11) Jake Thompson, RHP, Grade B-: Much better in the pros than he was in college, fits well into Rays pitching development system.

12) Justin O'Conner, C, Grade B-: Rookie ball numbers were poor, but I'll stick with his high school rep for now and scouts still like him.

13) Drew Vettleson, OF, Grade B-: Hasn't played yet, this is based on scouting reports and draft position.

14) Alex Cobb, RHP, Grade B-: In most systems this guy would get a lot more attention and be a Top Ten guy. Keep close track of him in 2011.

15) Nick Barnese, RHP, Grade B-: Like Cobb, he'd get more notice in other systems and could be a number three/four starter.

16) Joe Cruz, RHP, Grade B-: Another good arm with good numbers that would rank higher in a less-rich system.

17) Brandon Guyer, OF, Grade B-: A good athlete, has made good strides turning his tools into skills the last two years. Has speed, some power, could use better plate discipline.

18) Scott Shuman, RHP, Grade C+: Throws hard, excellent numbers, could zip up the ladder if command is there.

19) Wilking Rodriguez, RHP, Grade C+: Could take step forward in '11 as Cruz did this year.

20) Braulio Lara, LHP, Grade C+: Another live arm from Latin America who could break through in '11.

21) Leslie Anderson, OF, Grade C+: Cuban defector with a decent bat, could prove useful on bench.

22) Ryan Brett, 2B, Grade C+: Speedy second baseman, another high school bat from '10 draft adds hitting to system.

23) Tim Beckham, SS, Grade C+: Almost dropped him down to a C, but decided to give it one more year as he's just the equivalent of a college junior.

24) Robinson Chirinos, C, Grade C+: Older prospect at age 26, but has performed well in upper minors, can catch, has versatility, bat should be decent.

OTHERS OF NOTE: Luke Bailey, C; Tyler Bortnick, 2B; Cesar Cabral, LHP; Dane De La Rosa, RHP; Derek Dietrich, SS; Shane Dyer, RHP; Cole Figueroa, 2B; Marquis Fleming, RHP; Todd Glaesmann, OF; Brandon Gomes, RHP; Hector Guevara, 2B; Jesse Hahn, RHP; Ian Kendall, RHP; Alex Koronis, RHP; Kyle Lobstein, LHP; Ty Morrison, OF; David Newmann, LHP; Zach Quate, RHP; Cody Rogers, OF; Albert Suarez, RHP; Matthew Sweeney, 3B.

What an amazing collection of pitching. You have two potential number one starters in Hellickson and Moore. You have a future closer in McGee, then a bunch of lively arms who could develop into 2/3/4 starters. There is also a bunch of very interesting bullpen fodder in the Grade C group. I love the way the Rays develop pitching; I love that they don't rush most of these guys, and let them build up innings and experience at each level.

The hitting is a lot less impressive. Jennings is ready and Anderson should be useful, but they are relying an awful lot on the high school hitters from the 2010 draft to give the system a boost, and even the best of them are three years away of not more. Bailey and Glaesmann from the '09 class got off to poor starts, and tools guys like Rogers and Morrison are high risk. It unbalances the system and a few more polished hitters seem like they would help. Of course, with so much pitching coming up, the theory is that you can trade for hitting if you need it.

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Comments

Display:

I hope...

Jennings can stay healthy. If he stays healthy I think he will develop a decent amount of power and become a great player.

by forloveofthegam3 on Dec 19, 2010 10:06 PM EST reply actions  

Sale

LOVE the aggressive grade on Sale. I think he will be a special bat.

by JDizzidy on Dec 19, 2010 10:18 PM EST reply actions  

Interesting to note

Most of their prospects are either OF or pitchers.
Their best infielder prospects are O’Conner (depending on where he ends up), Anderson (maybe their 1B but not a ton of impact), Brett & Beckham.

In the majors, they are set at 3B for a long-o time, and maybe Brignac is set at SS. I guess I see a glaring hole in their system at 1B & 2B for their future. Maybe that is a need where we will see some SP prospects traded?

The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. It reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.

by Savoy on Dec 19, 2010 10:33 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think there is a glaring hole at 2B.

Sean Rodriguez is just 26 and already a solid defensive player who has offensive upside. And Zobrist, 30, is also defensively fine with useful offensive skills. If you accept that Brignac can be solid at SS and that Beckham remains a prospect, then in 2 years or so you can add them to the middle infield mix. Perhaps that does not make for impact players there as Longoria does at 3B or the promising outfielders do, but it does mean contributing players, not a glaring hole in the system.

And coming up behind them is Ryan Brett whom John has in the top 20 as well.

by bobr on Dec 19, 2010 11:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, 1st is the only big hole

And they can always trade away some excess pitching to fill it, plus they’re gonna cash in big time come the draft.

by BaconBits on Dec 20, 2010 12:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Not a lot of wiggle room if someone gets hurt or forgets how to hit, but reasonably good starting 2B, SS and 3B are all locked up for the next four years or longer.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Dec 20, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

There are a lot of systems without strong 2B/SS prospects. The minors are loaded with possible 1B players who are blocked at the MLB level.

by Cormican on Dec 20, 2010 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I like that you have Matt Moore at #2

I think a lot of people will have Jennings there because of his position but I think Moore has a much better shot at becoming a superstar than DJ.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 19, 2010 10:53 PM EST reply actions  

Moore

Nit-picking: I’m not sure I would give Moore a solid A. Although he chopped his walk rate down this year (a good thing), he’s still walking nearly 4 guys per nine innings, and when he’s not striking guys out he’s more hittable than you want to see. I’d be inclined to err on the side of caution with an A-.

Mike Emeigh http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/minor_key/

by MikeE on Dec 19, 2010 11:01 PM EST reply actions  

You're right

That is pretty nitpicky. At least the “when he’s not striking guys out” part. You’re dinging him for having a high BABIP?

by siddfynch on Dec 20, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions  

He led the minors in BAA in 2009

and held opponents to a .210 BA in 2010.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 20, 2010 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Not that it matters too much

But after the first month of the season, he walked about 2.5 per 9 for the rest of the year. He was just very wild early.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Dec 20, 2010 10:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Jake Thompson

Love the ranking. He could move quickly for a TB prospect.

by blackoutyears on Dec 19, 2010 11:06 PM EST reply actions  

A few changes that I personally would make....

Jennings: I would move him to A-. While injuries are a concern, he can still hit and provides good defense in CF with many stolen bases. I think his power is underrated too.
Alex Torres: This is my extreme liking of him, but I would move him to B+. He provides K’s, low ERA’s, and great scouting reports. The walks aren’t too big of an issue either. I just don;t see any major faults in him to drop him to a B.
Enny Romero: I would consider moving him to a B-, but I don;t have too many reports on him.
Cobb: Not sure why he is so low at all. Easy B for me, since he not only gets amazing results but great strikeouts. Not everyone dominates on great stuff. Plus, he has dominated the upper minors.
I would also move TIm Beckham to a B- and switch around some of the C+s.

by mr. maniac on Dec 19, 2010 11:22 PM EST reply actions  

jennings

i think b+ is more than fair. injuries aren’t a small concern anymore.

R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
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by doublestix on Dec 19, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

No way Beckham is a B-

He has done nothing to deserve that grade. Until the guy shows he can hit, how is he anything more then a huge disappointment.

by King Billy Royal on Dec 20, 2010 1:15 AM EST up reply actions  

this

if beckham wasn’t the #1 pick, i doubt he is even in the top 20…have to cut him some slack due to the draft slot but this is a pretty big season for him.

"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball

by flipgatey3 on Dec 20, 2010 1:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes

A well-said agreement with what I just said! Encore!

by gogotabata on Dec 20, 2010 3:50 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

and why was he the #1 pick do you think?

do you think it might be because he possesses some sort of baseball talent? and perhaps this is the reason that even tho his numbers are not great, he is still talented and still deserves to be on some lists?

by daveh33 on Dec 20, 2010 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree he should be top 20

But do you think he should actually be considered for a top 100 list?

by King Billy Royal on Dec 20, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Lots of #1 picks flame out and never make the Majors. IMO, talent only keeps you on the list so long. At some point you need to show results in order to stay on. I wouldn’t be against him not being on some lists, he’s kind of sucked.

by Cormican on Dec 20, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree, I’m not saying cut the bum, just that he’s a not a top prospect at the moment, based on his performance.

by Cormican on Dec 20, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions  

To be fair,

a lot of scouts have chimed in that his tools aren’t showing as plus as they did back when he was drafted.

by slamcactus on Jan 13, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Okay.

So you wouldn’t give a very toolsy player who played in A+ at only 20 who also hit pretty well except for the first month and whose defense is improving a B- grade. He is young, he is toolsy, and the results are beginning to show. Now he has not performed like a #1 overall pick, but in no way should he be discounted for that.

by mr. maniac on Dec 20, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Very toolsy seems to be an overstatement

I have him as a B-, but I don’t think a C+ is underrating him much.

http://bullpenbanter.com/

by Jeff Reese on Dec 20, 2010 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

It's not like he lit it up after April either

He didn’t hit for much power (0 HRs after May). Really, he had one nice month, July, where he hit .340/.466/.404. One month doesn’t make you a big prospect.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 20, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

He didn't hit pretty well

Also, I hate when people cherry pick months at the end of the season. Looking at the player’s entire body of work for the season is a lot more accurate, especially when they are not in their first season of pro ball.

by King Billy Royal on Dec 20, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

cherry pick months at the end of the season

That ignores the possibility that a player has improved over the course of the year. Certainly you’d be worried if a player started strong and struggled to the finish line, and the converse is true. It doesn’t make much sense to simply look at the end result and ignore possible trends. It’s player development.

by blackoutyears on Dec 20, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Right

but I’m not arguing about a specific player, just against KBR’s premise that a season’s stats necessarily outweigh trends throughout the season.

by blackoutyears on Dec 20, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Analyze him as another player, not a #1 pick

He’s just another prospect, the #1 pick shouldn’t have anything to do with his grade. You can say that he hasn’t justified being a #1 overall, but you can’t say because he was a #1 overall, “just” hitting above league average is a bad thing.

If everybody likes you, then either no one knows anything about you, or you're dead.

Fantasy Prospect Central: http://fantasyprospectcentral.blogspot.com/

by Archie A on Dec 20, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

this is an old argument

and it holds merit as far as not placing him in the top 50 prospects in the game, but in the top 20 TB spects?

by daveh33 on Dec 20, 2010 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

tools

Is he really that toolsy? This came up in the Yankees thread concerning Slade Heathcott, not really a similar player but it brought up something interesting. There seems to be a little bit of an exaggerated connection between overall athleticism and baseball tools. Guys can be great athletes and yet not really have much to offer in the way of present baseball tools. I’ll concede that athleticism might lend itself to the development of better baseball tools, but I’m not sure we want to say “A=B” quite so much.

The tools seem pretty average across the board at this point.

by mrkupe on Dec 20, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 20, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

I think either

The tools aren’t as good as we thought or he’s having trouble turning the tools into skills. Frankly neither is a good situation

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 20, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

you know he didn't make the FSL top 20, right?

I don’t think he’s making the overall top 100.

by mrkupe on Dec 21, 2010 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

i don't like how inconsistent those league top 20s are.

and i dont trust minor league managers too much.

i know he’s not making BA’s top 100… i’m more interested in whether any good scouting reports actually exist on his 2010 season, and not just one/two games. it seems like people are just placing 2010 as his make-or-break year… and without too much reason, other than its another year he hasn’t broken out. yet the Rays didn’t demote him or make him repeat anything. he’s right on schedule, just without the numbers. its just a really odd case to me.

another player that I feel is similar in not only player profile, but being forgotten is Chris Nelson. he has seemingly turned a corner too, and yet the Rockies/media are kind of sweeping him under the rug

by daveh33 on Dec 21, 2010 1:13 AM EST up reply actions  

My "+1"

was in response to mr kupe asking:

Is he really that toolsy?

I don’t think he is as toolsy as he was made out to be. Further, I think the Slade Heathcott comp is right in that sense. People who watch him now don’t think the tools are all that impressive.

What tools does Beckham have that you would characterize as plus right now? Maybe power. That’s it.

With the depth of talent in this system I have a hard time taking what Beckham is now (including his projection) over a lot of those guys. I don’t see it.

by alskor on Dec 21, 2010 2:10 AM EST up reply actions  

John in a recent interview:

RP: The obligatory Tim Beckham question: What are your overall thoughts on his performance as a pro so far, and what do you expect from him going forward?

JS: He’s made a little progress but I can’t see any way to spin him overall as anything but a big disappointment. Right now I think they should be happy if he becomes a useful role player, and even that isn’t a guarantee at all.

 http://www.raysprospects.com/2010/12/john-sickels-on-rays.html

The guys on raysprospects.com ranked him 20th, 19th and 16th in the system respectively before John’s ranking and comment, btw (Dec 12th – http://www.raysprospects.com/2010/12/combined-top-30-lists-with-notes.html )

Jim Callis in August:

Will (Mactaquac): Two of the SS prospects I own in a keeper league are extremely hard to put a value on for me, even an avid reader of BA. I can’t tell if Grant Green’s defense is good or bad. I can’t tell if Tim Beckham is a lot less athletic than advertised at the point of his being #1 overall. Why are these guys so hard to pin down?

Jim Callis: Probably because there’s a difference of opinion. I’ve heard people on both sides of the Green argument, some who think he can be a solid shortstop and some who think he’ll have to move. Beckham is at least a little less athletic than advertised and he has not hit anywhere close to what the Rays projected.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/chat/2010/2610578.html

Also from the same Ask BA:

Michael (Seattle): Who do you think will be a better short stop over their career… Tim Beckham or Dee Gordon

Jim Callis: Dee Gordon. I don’t think Beckham stays at shortstop and I think Gordon outperforms him anyway.

KG, reviewing his top 11 from last year:

The first overall pick in 2008, Tim Beckham (sixth), will be lucky to make this year’s list after zero progress at High-A and to have him ahead of fellow shortstop Reid Brignac (seventh) is just embarrassing at this point.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=12120

by alskor on Dec 21, 2010 2:36 AM EST up reply actions  

am i looking at this in an extremely positive way, or all these all extremely vague?
Beckham is at least a little less athletic than advertised and he has not hit anywhere close to what the Rays projected.

really? no shit, Callis. they took him #1 overall, of course they thought he was going to hit better. and a “little less athletic than advertised”… same thing we’ve been hearing. also vague and not at all confident-sounding.

as for him not thinking he stays at SS, again, not very definitive or anything new. and of course he doesn’t look good at short compared to Gordon, who is tremendously athletic.

as for KG being embarrassed at his own ranking, what does that prove?

as for John’s quote, I am waiting to hear what his source is, as I have already asked in this thread. and all he really says is a “disappointment”, which is basically his label now, because Buster Posey was picked after him, and was favored by many Rays fans, including Friedman. no new insight

by daveh33 on Dec 21, 2010 3:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Again, what's the difference between

Callis’ Ask BA answer and some random power grade in their top 100?

So the concerns about him not staying at SS aren’t new, but that doesn’t mean you can just brush them off. He’s had questions about his defense for some time, so it’s a problem.

Goldstein was only saying that he doesn’t think Beckham is good as he did a year ago.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 21, 2010 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Because of results.

It’s all results-based, but then people try to argue that this scouting and opinions aren’t results based. It’s hogwash, and it’s why all these guys write instead of scout for a living.

by rglass44 on Dec 21, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions  

I would say you're looking at it in an overly optimistic way. YMMV

I would have linked Mike Newman’s scouting report from last August highlighting lessened tools and unimpressive athleticism as further corroborating evidence that the guy is not as toolsy as advertised but I am quite sure you’d just ask for something more recent and dismiss it.

by alskor on Dec 21, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Why is the burden of proof on us?

How about you show us a positive scouting report (or comment, or SOMETHING)?

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 21, 2010 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably

Because he hit .256. Because he didn’t hit a home run after May. Because there are numerous questions about his defense. Because of all the things alskor posted.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 21, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't waste your time

Daveh will ignore all the evidence and expert opinion because he is a Tampa homer.

by King Billy Royal on Dec 21, 2010 4:21 PM EST up reply actions  

he did nearly the same thing in 09.

are you even reading my posts?

what did he do differently in 2010?

by daveh33 on Dec 21, 2010 4:57 PM EST up reply actions  

You say that as if an extra year without results isn't a big deal.

With raw, toolsy guys, every year they don’t take a big, meaningful step forward, their prospect status plummets. This isn’t hard. “His performance sucked in 2009, too, and we still rated him high” is not a very good argument.

by slamcactus on Jan 13, 2011 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

i disagree

its not like he’s

1 — old for the level.

2 — repeating the level.

3 — at a position where the org. is expecting his bat to carry him. [its actually the opposite. he was told to work on his defense this year… much like how they developed brignac]

by daveh33 on Jan 13, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Sure, he's not old for his level.

At some point, though, you’d like to see him hit well. It’s not like he’s completely off the map. Generally, though, high draft spot + a disappointing half-season debut: stock not down much, if at all. High draft spot + disappointing first season accompanied with diminished scouting reports: stock a little down, but still on the map. High draft spot + two and a half years without a single plus performance, plus an emerging consensus you’ll have to move off of a premium position = stock significantly down.

This isn’t hard. And with any other player, I don’t think you’d disagree. Tim Beckham the 20 year old who’s never had a standout year is an inferior prospect to Tim Beckham the 19 year old who’s never had a standout year.

by slamcactus on Jan 13, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions  

on August 9th, Desmond Jennings and Tim Beckham

had nearly identical OBPs…. august 9th was the last time we did a ‘farm watch’ on drb.

I realize Becks struggled again towards the end, but I maintain my theory of his getting tired…

this is what they looked like on august 9th:
DJ: age 23, AAA, 344 PA, .279/.350/.407 …9.0 BB%, 16.3 K%
TB: age 20, highA, 414 PA, .254/.346/.369…11.6 BB%, 23.0 K%

and how they finished:
DJ: 457 PA, .278/.359/.393 .. 10.3 BB%, 14.7 K%, .115 ISOP, .328 BABIP
TB: 541 PA, .256/.340/.359 .. 11.3 BB%, 22.0 K%, .103 ISOP, .334 BABIP

in 109 May PA, Beckham actually had an ISOP of .200… this is in the FSL, and that’s exceptional for a MIF… now, it did disappear in the 2nd half. I have no idea why. does anybody?

But since when does a young shortstop, or any hitter, struggle to hit for power in the FSL? since all the time.

by daveh33 on Dec 21, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions  

And as soon as he shows he can hit 39% XBH

In more than one month, maybe I’ll be encouraged. Outside of May, his IsoP was .078 so I don’t know if you really want to make IsoP part of your argument.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 21, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And look at those stats again

Beckham hit .256… with a .334 BABIP. That’s not good.

Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Dec 21, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

A 20 y/o

wearing down after 100 games 2.5 years into his professional career doesn’t make him a better prospect, it raises red flags about his conditioning.

Now, I don’t actually think that’s the explanation, so this isn’t a judgment on Beckham. I think the better explanation is that he’s not a very good hitter. But if this is the correct explanation, that the supposedly toolsiest teenager in the 2008 draft can’t last through the truncated minor league season 2.5 years later, I don’t see that as a good thing.

by slamcactus on Jan 13, 2011 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously...

I should say “not a very good hitter yet.”

Nobody’s writing him off, we just have to adjust our idea of his upside downward. Considerably, IMO.

by slamcactus on Jan 13, 2011 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

So... what?

Why is that any more indicative than things alskor have posted? Does anyone think Justin Smoak has a 70 bat at this point? Or Michael Taylor a 65 bat? If you like Tim Beckham as a guy that could break out, that’s one thing, but to act like he’s been perfectly fine is ridiculous.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Dec 21, 2010 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

i'm not acting like he's been perfectly fine.

I am saying that his 2009 and his 2010 are nearly equal. the only differences being him being one year older [but he moved up a level, so his ARL is intact].

nothing else has really changed. and yet he’s plummeting down lists. I am asking “why?” and never really getting great sources or solid/confident quotes.

by daveh33 on Dec 21, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

This

His numbers were actually better compared to the league he played in, yet he’s being downgraded further and further off of vague or old scouting reports seemingly.

by rglass44 on Dec 21, 2010 11:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Mike Newman's reaction is basically what you hear when you ask people about him.

Its not just performance. Not many people think he’s going to stick at SS.

Diminished reports of tools and athleticism + mediocre performance = diminished prospect status

by alskor on Dec 21, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

In 2009 he was being rated highly in part based on projection

In 2010, a lot of the projection disappeared and he made very little forward progress.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Dec 21, 2010 6:28 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

nothing else has really changed. and yet he’s plummeting down lists. I am asking "why?"

It’s a pretty simple concept.

by slamcactus on Jan 13, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

this was back in february. 10 months ago

statistically, Beckham did how much worse this year than last? that he goes from BA’s #67 prospect with a 60 power grade as SS, to Sickels’ #20 TB prospect?

by daveh33 on Dec 20, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Two-fold problem

Beckham´s status suffers from a two-fold problem:

  1. 1 He was clearly overrated right around the time he was drafted 1st overall in the June 2008 draft, being compared to the Derek Jeter and other elite SS – a status he´ll never reach in all likelihood. When you don´t fulfill expectations and become a smash right away, people start getting disappointed and actually hold your # 1 status against you for all the wasted time following & covering you. The “new” thing is always more interesting.
  1. 2 This is a stacked system where Beckham gets somewhat lost in a crowd of several good-looking prospects. Put Beckham into the Houston Astros or Chicago White Sox system and he´s still easily a top 5 prospect in that system when compared to his peers.

Overall, I don´t see many differences between the type of prospect Beckham is right now or how he progressed in 2010 compared to the type of prospect Florida´s Matt Dominguez is who just got ranked as the # 1 prospect by BA in the rather weak Florida Marlins system.

Both were highly touted tools guys out of HS and early picks in a June draft (Dominguez in 2007, Beckham in 2008). Neither has really hit well in the minors, though neither has been terrible either.

Dominguez happens to be the “one-eyed” in a poor system and is a year more advanced with an obvious opening awaiting him in the majors soon while Beckham is the one-eyed in a system full of “eagle-eyed” prospects and probably blocked at SS by Reid Brignac and at 3b by Evan Longoria for now.

As a still 20-year-old, Beckham still has plenty of time to emerge as a legit prospect again and surprise those who have given up on him too early. He made some – albeit minor – strides in 2010, supposedly has a strong work ethic and can´t have lost all the tools that made him a top pick in June 2008 over the span of one & a half years.

I doubt he´ll become a true star but would also be surprised if he doesn´t have a very solid 10 year major league career as a solid regular – be it at 2b, SS or 3b or with another organization than the TB Rays eventually.

For now, somewhat similar to a prospect like Fernando Martinez, he´ll have to rebuild his value – maybe in a way that Eric Hosmer rebuilt his value from last winter.

by Doob on Dec 21, 2010 1:35 AM EST up reply actions  

solid post doob

you mention him being blocked at ss and 3b… what about 2b? that will seemingly be a platoon of Zobrist and Sean Rodriguez. and by 2013, or whenever T-Bex is ready, there could be an opening for him, should he have figured it out by then

by daveh33 on Dec 21, 2010 1:52 AM EST up reply actions  

I think I get it

Tim Beckham: The secretly pretty girl with hand-me-down clothes, messy hair and really ugly glasses who is lost amongst the hot Florida girls who “perform” well in their social crowds

Matt Dominguez: Doesn’t look any better than Beckham, but goes to a dreary private boarding school in Washington. Still doesn’t get all that much attention because most of the guys know there are much better looking girls to be found virtually everywhere else other than Milwaukee. The school decides to have a dance, so suddenly the attention is on the not-so-classically-attractive girls at this school, Matt included. Matt looks the best, surrounded by alternatives such as “Yelich”, “Jhan”, and “Mr. Hand”. But if Tim was at this school, suddenly things completely change.

Is there anything wrong with my reasoning here?

by mrkupe on Dec 21, 2010 2:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I think that’s true of both the metaphorical and real Milwaukee.

by limozeen on Dec 21, 2010 4:26 AM EST up reply actions  

kind of

except its more like :

Tim was dating a football player in 09, one of the popular girls, even as a freshman. the next year, her sophomore year, he didn’t get any more ugly or any more attractive, and yet a couple of his friends developed physically. keep in mind he’s not a slouch in the looks department, but some of the football players are starting to look elsewhere, even tho Tim has been perfectly fine and did nothing embarassing. he just didn’t make the cheerleading squad this year, so some of the football players forgot about him, and the artist-types arent really interested in Tim as a date, so he’s plummeting down the social ladder, and he doesn’t get why. was making the cheerleading squad really that vital to his high school quality-of-life?

by daveh33 on Dec 21, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Romero or Carlos Perez (Brave pitcher)

I see the two as kind of similar prospects, so I’m curious how others would rank them against each other. They just seem to have similar overall profiles, but I don’t know enough about them to know if that’s true.

Now writing for BaseballInstinct.com

by Franchise887 on Dec 20, 2010 12:13 AM EST reply actions  

Funny.

Last year I saw Wilking Rodriguez and Robinson Lopez as virtually identical pitchers. Though there are obvious handedness and skin-color differences, the year before I saw Matt Moore and Randall Delgado as guys with similar talent. In 2006, it was Hellickson and Hanson. Romero and Perez have some obvious parallels, too.

The Rays don’t really have an answer to Julio Teheran, but I see a lot of parallels in their pitching talent.

by slamcactus on Jan 13, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I have Hellickson, Jennings, and Moore each as an “A” grade. I just don’t see Jennings as anything else other than a future All Star.

by Nnamdi Asomugha on Dec 20, 2010 1:25 AM EST reply actions  

John, did you receive any first-hand reports on Beckham, or just hearsay?

I struggle to find any reports on him at all. most everyone just says the same thing and when asked for a recent report, I get silence

by daveh33 on Dec 20, 2010 11:51 AM EST reply actions  

I hate that too.

I have seen Beckham play this past year, and his defense is much better than reported. His range is fine and his arm is great. He just isn’t too used to it yet, and I think he will progress.

by mr. maniac on Dec 20, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Shuman!!!!

Love the Scott “rutherford” Shuman love. Tampa Fans should be pleased to see him in the pen sooner than later. The kid is a gamer that throws hard, I too think he advances quickly.

by Drufan11 on Dec 20, 2010 2:26 PM EST reply actions  

I know neither made the list and both are probly bench bats if they make it

but who do have higher Bortnick or Figueroa?

12/8/10- The day Urban Meyer resigned as coach and the day Crawford signed with the Suxs. One of the worst days in sports ever!

by thedudeofdudes on Dec 20, 2010 6:19 PM EST reply actions  

Figueroa

had MUCH better High-A Lake Elsinore stats with the Padres than Bartlett did when he was there… I think the Rays got a steal. He’ll never be an A-tier SS but he is relieable and advanced plate discipline and decent hitting skills.

-peter

by PeterF on Jan 13, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

The Beckham pick is looking pretty terrible. Why did they pick him over Posey again? Was it Posey’s bonus demands?

by boonitez on Dec 20, 2010 7:48 PM EST reply actions  

Partially

Friedman wanted Posey
Scouting department wanted Beckham

Bonus was part of it too, but Posey and Beckham ended up signing for the exact same signing bonus.

by Jason Collette on Dec 20, 2010 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Although isn't it likely that

had Posey been the number 1 pick his bonus demands would have been higher than what he got at pick 5?

Generally the Rays have not been loath to spend on draft picks, usually going over slot for many picks. I think at the time there was some thought that they did not want to pay what Posey was asking for, but I doubt that was the only or even fundamental reason. At the time, there was no consensus as to who was the best pick among 3 or 4 players. I don’t recall there was much criticism of the Beckham pick at the time.

by bobr on Dec 20, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really.

His stuff looks filthy because of plus-plus command.

by mr. maniac on Jan 13, 2011 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Cliff Lee has filthy stuff

His curve ball is absolutely disgusting. Hitters stand no chance against it. Are you actually comparing Cobb’s stuff to Lee’s?

Dewey and KBR are just.......too........sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!

The Wolfpac is looking for new soldiers! Change your logo to the black and red!!!

by King Billy Royal on Jan 14, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Its funny how guys with great command and average velocity get their stuff downgraded

Its the same mindset that leads people to act like Maddux had average stuff despite having one of the best changeups in the game and great movement on fastball.

by nixa37 on Jan 14, 2011 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

yes

The weird thing is, a lot of the “average stuff” guys who end up being frontline pitchers threw harder when they were younger. Players in the minors are often reported to throw harder than they eventually do in the majors, partially because of hype (Baseball America is famous for this), partially because of adjustments (velocity leads to success in the minors, command + movement in the majors), and partially because of natural leveling out of stuff. Maddux is obviously a good example here as he could throw very hard as a young player. It’s also worth noting that Lee’s stuff has gotten better across the board steadily since his disastrous 2007 season. His average fastball velocity, for example, has jumped almost 2.5 MPH over the last several years.

I don’t see Lee’s stuff as average at all. He has above-average velocity from the left side, an outstanding curveball, and a fine changeup. His swinging strike percentages are slightly below league average, but that’s not a huge surprise considering how much he lives in the zone, and in any case his actual strikeout percentages are well above league average. If his stuff was really that average, Lee would basically be Mark Buehrle in his best years . . .I’ve watched a ton of Buehrle over the years, and while I love his pitchability, there is no comparison in stuff between Buehrle and Lee.

by mrkupe on Jan 14, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Well said Kupe

Dewey and KBR are just.......too........sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!

The Wolfpac is looking for new soldiers! Change your logo to the black and red!!!

by King Billy Royal on Jan 14, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

The other reason...

guys don’t throw as hard in MLB as they do in their scouting reports is that when BA says “throws 90-94,” what they actually mean is "sits 90-91, touches 94 on occasion).

by slamcactus on Jan 14, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions  

I mentioned that, actually

First paragraph.

It’s not misleading to include the velocity that a player can touch in the range, but I think the way it’s written up can sometimes be misleading. So much of the time it seems like those higher velocities are the result of in-game efforts to develop arm strength than a meaningful permanent increase.

by mrkupe on Jan 14, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Looking at PitchFx, his curve looks really good and his fastball a above average.

Guys with great command can make pitches look filthy. I remember watching Lee put his curve where no one could hit it. If you inlude command as part of stuff, then he has plus-plus stuff.

My point is that Lee does not have the stuff of some other top-notch pitchers. He does have phenominal command though. This makes his stuff as good as anyones.

by mr. maniac on Jan 14, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

People forget that Maddux worked in the low 90’s with insane movement on his fastball. He is arguably the best ‘pitcher’ I have ever seen, with his ability to expand the strikezone and constantly keep the hitters guessing. I absolutely hate when people take a pitcher with mediocre stuff (i.e. James Simmons, Alex Cobb) and try to compare him to Maddux.

Dewey and KBR are just.......too........sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!

The Wolfpac is looking for new soldiers! Change your logo to the black and red!!!

by King Billy Royal on Jan 14, 2011 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I am absolutely not comparing Cobb to Lee.

Another thing. Lee’s curve is probably plus. Read some scouting reprorts currently on him. It is the command that makes it a plus-plus pitch. If he could only control it averagely, it would be only plus.

by mr. maniac on Jan 14, 2011 3:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Jesus...

KC’s better at the top and in position players, but this system is ridiculously deep, and will only get deeper with 12 of the top 90 picks in the upcoming draft, widely considered the best in years. Something tells me the cuts to the 2011 MLB payroll will relate directly to the Rays’ strategy of not going cheap with their embarrassment of draft-day riches this year.

Can’t wait to see the haul Friedman’s crew pulls in this June. And I’m not even a Rays fan.

by slamcactus on Jan 14, 2011 7:59 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

+1

http://bullpenbanter.com

by gatling on Jan 14, 2011 11:50 PM EST up reply actions  

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