Royals, Prospects, Need
by OldProspects on Dec 15, 2010 2:41 AM EST
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PrintI imagine that most of the people on this site have learned the lesson from drafting prospects for need that we all basically agree on the idea of best player available. Yet, on the discussion over whether Montero would be a valuable trade chip to get Greinke, people noted that the Royals might not have a space for him - and the truth is that if there is any team with the prospects that they should seriously consider need rather than value alone, it might be the Royals now. So, I was wondering, if you were the Royals, and thinking more in terms of need (without, obviously, ignoring value), whom would you be looking for?
As the Montero commenters noted, the Royals are not lacking for potentially elite young hitters. Billy Butler, Eric Hosmer, Mike Moustakas and Will Myers would likely all make a list of the most talented hitters below 25. The one issue with those players, however, is that the Royals might be forced to put a terrific hitter in a place where his defense could be a disadvantage. If they could find a very talented player who was also a true CF, that might be a huge bonus for them. Similarly, a MIF or C who could hit might be very valuable. Though they have a ton of pitching talent, depth, particularly from the right side, is always helpful.
Does this make sense to you? If you were the Royals, which CF, MIF or C might you be looking for? Would you see if the Cardinals would include Rasmus in a deal for Greinke? What about seeing if a deal based around Ackley and Pineda is possible? Might you see if the Orioles would include Adam Jones, Machado, and maybe another piece? What about if the Rays would deal Desmond Jennings, or even B.J. Upton? Are there any catchers whom you would target? What about true middle infielders other than Machado? (Or maybe somebody closer)
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The problem I see with Moore going after positions of need in trading Greinke
is that there don’t seem elite up the middle prospects that are close to breaking into the Majors. Dustin Ackley is certainly an elite prospect, but the Mariners are in no position, I believe, to be trading for a player like Zack Greinke. Brett Lawrie might be the closest thing to a fit, but he come’s with positional concerns, just like every MIF prospect the Royals have in there system right now.
I think Moore would be best suited be just focusing on getting the most talent back, and not focus so much on positions of need or stage of development, which is what he seems to be doing.
Too many problems with what Moore wants
The main problem being finding a match of a team. There’s a few teams that could give Moore what he wants, but I’d say most are in the AL, and either in the division (Twins-with something centering around Hicks or Revere, Sano (praying he can stay at SS) and a guy like Duensing or Gibson) or a place Greinke wouldn’t want to go (Mariners-either Ackley, Franklin, or Triunfel and Pineda).
A team like the Rangers, Angels, or Nationals could be the best bet if they are willing to part with the pieces (Andrus, Borbon, (Holland, Feliz or Hunter) or subbing Beltre, Ramirez) – (Trout or Bourjos, Conger, Segura) – (Espinosa or Desmond, Norris, and any starter they currently have) , but that is a lot to give up for Greinke, but the Rangers have the most options to put a deal together that works for both teams IMO.
A team with an outside shot of putting something together would be the Cubs with a Ju-Lee, LeMahieu, Brett Jackson, Cashner or Jay Jackson type package or maybe the Mets with Havens, Tejada or Flores and Thole plus Mejia. Detroit could be an interesting team if they would package Sizemore, Avila and Turner.
Opportunities are out there, but Moore is asking for the world and wants a lot of stipulations that make a deal unlikely. I agree with RoyalKila, just get the most talent back and get a deal done focusing on building the core you already have in AA and AAA.
Royals / Rangers
I could see something built around Greinke for Andrus / Borbon. In that case, would the Rangers ask for a middle infielder in return (Colon)?
Greinke & Colon for Andrus, Borbon, & Tommy Hunter?
I think I am correct in saying Colon cannot be traded for 1 year after he was signed by the Royals. Is that correct?
The one constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball. It reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.
enough people are pissed at Moore right now...
someone would probably shoot him if he made that trade.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
yeah
that’s pretty horrid
-1 and only member of the Nick Weglarz fan club!
I wouldn't totally rule out the Rangers trading Borbon
but there is no way on earth they are trading Andrus in a deal for Greinke. For a deal with the Rangers to work the Royals are going to have to to like some of Scheppers, Perez, Beltre, Profar, Holland and Hunter because two, possibly three. guys off that list are likely to make up the bulk of what the Rangers would be willing to offer for Greinke
Royals Needs
The Royals biggest need is an established ace starter to carry them to their 2012 AL Central title.
Those trade proposals are a little outlandish.
The Mariners aren’t trading for Grienke, they certainly aren’t giving up their top two prospects.
The Rays are trying to trade AWAY starting pitching.
Orioles aren’t going to trade for Grienke.
The Rasmus deal makes some sense though.
They should be targeting right-handed starters, and players with super high upside that might be a few years away regardless of position. If they went for need, they wouldn’t have Mike Moustakas because Alex Gordon is the “third baseman of the future”
by Kenneth Arthur on Dec 15, 2010 11:56 AM EST reply actions
These suggestions weren't quite serious
I agree that talent and other factors are ultimately determining, but this seemed like another perspective that might produce interesting alternatives that could be useful.
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by OldProspects on Dec 15, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Still
The Yankees seem the most logical but their FO doubts that Greinke (that’s how you spell it Humbled, fwiw) could pitch in the circus that is New York. They have the young guys (Montero, obviously, but Banuelos, Betances and Sanchez are intriguing). Would Moore do a Banuelos + Betances + Sanchez for Greinke deal? I would. However, it seems unlikely that the Royals’ ownership would do it when they trade away the face of their franchise for guys who’ll be up in 2013 and 2014.
I like the Braves chances if we threw our collective hat in the ring. I think a Delgado + Minor + Bethancourt package is very good and give the Royals a guy they can insert into the rotation now (Minor), next year (Delgado) and a young catching prospect (Bethancourt) to groom behind Grandal (Myers’ is a RF and everyone knows it. a damn fine one, but a RF nonetheless). Yet, that’s probably all the Braves would offer and the Royals could get more from another team that’s desperate to make a splash. PLUS, the Braves would need to find another 13 million to pay Greinke and Liberty’s got the purse strings pretty tight at 85 million and we only have another 3 million. I doubt it happens.
The Cardinals scenario is an interesting one. A Rasmus + Tyrell Jenkins deal could work. John loves Jenkins and Rasmus could patrol CF while Myers and Gordon flank him. Rasmus is cheap, young, controllable and good. Yet, I heard that the Cardinals can’t take on all that much salary (seeing that Pujols will likely get 30 million per in a few years).
Thus, I think Greinke stays put until someone (Texas) throws Perez + Profar + Scheppers out there.
by apoxonbothyourhouses on Dec 15, 2010 12:54 PM EST reply actions
Not really though
As a rule, dealing ace pitchers is probably a pretty good deal. Pitchers, even established ones, are rather risky; spreading the risk by getting 3 or 4 high upside players in return, especially whom are cheaper, is a good idea. The primary exception to this, of course, is competitive teams. Which the Royals won’t be for 2-3 years
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Dec 15, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Take the best package
It’s foolish to presume that Myers, Montero and Hosmer will all work out and become MLB stars.
problem is they have Billy Butler too
unless Hosmer can man LF with any level of competance then they have 3 guys who are relegated to 1B/DH, and this doesn’t even take Kila into consideration. Butler is already established as a useful major league commodity, Kila is still a quesiton mark but it seems like they are going to give him a shot to prove himself finally, and Hosmer/Monter are so close that its hard to imagine they falter so tremendosly that they don’t provide some offensive value at the major league level. The situation works itself out a bit if Hosmer can handle LF, and then Kila can serve as a backup to all three guys, giving each of them time off when needed (therefore still getting semi-meaningful playing time, at least as a platoon guy), and taking over if one of them really does fall off the face of the earth.
true but
They clearly have zero faith in Kila, so to me he’s barely an option. Myers is too far away to worry about. Basically they’d need to move one guy to LF, and I don’t see why Hosmer couldn’t do that. Again, this only matters if they all work out fine, and there’s a legit shot at least one of these guys busts entirely.
if they clearly had zero faith in Kila he wouldn't have got a shot last Aug/Sept
and he’d be behind Betemit on the depth chart going into next year. he’s not. obviously.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
well, i might be wrong too
but, if he didn’t have support, i don’t think he’d have no competition for the 1B/DH spot next year. and he has support from his manager, so that helps a shit load.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
it was there last season
when he finally earned a spot on the big league roster….
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 15, 2010 8:14 PM EST up reply actions
then you're not looking
He played last season and will be an everday starter at 1B or DH this season.
he got 206 PA's down the stretch last year in his age 26 season
Zero in 2009 despite tearing up the minors.
He deserves a shot, but the Royals haven’t shown patience with him in the past. I fear they will let him play about a month, and if he struggles he’ll go down again for a long time, a la Nelson Cruz.
But, it’s all conjecture, so we’ll see.
he really didn't tear up the minors in 2009
in fact, he was kinda bad for a first baseman. in the PCL.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
Heres one i made up!
The immaculate four-way deal involving the Rangers, Royals, Red Sox and Diamondbacks:
Rangers receive: Zack Greinke, Mike Cameron, Bobby Borchering, Josh Reddick
Red Sox receive: Gerardo Parra, Kila Ka’aihue, Carlos Rosa
Royals receive: Neftali Feliz, Julio Borbon, Jurickson Profar, Chris Davis, Max Ramirez
Diamondbacks receive: David Murphy, Scott Feldman
This trade made me smile.
Not that’s it’s worth hyperanalyzing a made-up four team trade, but, I’m not sure any of these teams would do this. I guess the Rangers probably would, but the other 3 would say no imo.
i still like discussing it!
I see Red Sox as the biggest winners… I see it as getting Ka’aihue and Rosa and dumping Cameron while basically swapping two insignificant young outfielders (Parra and Reddick), the Royals receive a hell of a lot of useful young pieces, including a repalcement for Soria, a high potential, contact hitting, speedy center fielder with a good glove, a promising MI prospects, and some immediate power hitting depth at DH and catcher. D’backs get a left handed corner outfielder with some pop in Murphy and some rotational depth in exchange for a decent prospect and an expendable reliever. and the Rangers get Zack Greinke without giving up key players.
by METSMETSMETS on Dec 15, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
okay, I'll take the bait....
- Boston wants to dump Cameron but are not averse to hold on to him in light of how fragile Drew and Ellsbury are, plus I’m not sure Texas would deal Murphy or Borbon for him straight up considering age and contract
- Soria and KC have a love affair going on…..he’s not being replaced anytime soon IMO
- Wishful thinking to have Texas include Chris Davis, Ramirez and Feldman….I don’t think there’s much of a market for any of those guys unfortunately
- More standard thinking has Texas giving up Holland and Hunter in a package. Feliz and Holland together would certainly appeal to KC but no way Texas goes that far. Given how long it will take to move Feliz to starting, not to mention the uncertainty, and I’m sure KC wants more than just Borbon and a 17 year old who may not stay at SS in addition to Feliz.
Bottom line is I don’t think “the Rangers get Zack Greinke without giving up key players” – other teams have better catchers and major league ready middle infielders available so the Rangers may have no choice but to include an Andrus, Holland or Beltre in a mix that includes Feliz, Borbon and Profar. Of these six a couple can be considered replaceable but KC can afford to hold out for four out of this group and that’s just crazy!
"I didn't really say everything I said."-Yogi ism
Yeah the Davis/Ramirez/Feldman combo is pretty far off
They have almost no value and the Rangers would be thrilled to dump Feldman’s contract.
The Rangers are giving up feliz to get greinke
Isn’t that a key player?
I’m not sure why the Royals would want Chris Davis or Max Ramirez, considering their surplus at 1B/DH. I don’t think it’s a horrible deal for the Royals, but I don’t think it’s a particularly good deal either. I think it’s a fine deal for all of the teams, but am not sure why any of them would do it
TheSouthWing.com - A Magazine of essays, prose and poems
by OldProspects on Dec 15, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
If I were Moore I'd hang onto Zack for now
Unless someone bowls you over with an offer of course.
June and July is a better time to extract a real bounty for him. And ya never know, maybe he sees the talent they’ve got there and warms up to an extension in the meantime.
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