St. Louis Cardinals Top 20 Prospects for 2011
St. Louis Cardinals Top 20 Prospects for 2011
All grades are EXTREMELY PRELIMINARY and subject to change. Don't get too concerned about exact rankings at this point, especially once you get past the Top 10. Grade C+/C guys are pretty interchangeable depending on what you want to emphasize.
Feel free to critique the list, but use logic and reason rather than polemics to do to. The list and grades are a blending of present performance and long-term potential. Full reports on all of players can be found in the 2011 Baseball Prospect Book. We are now taking pre-orders. Order early and order often!
QUICK PRIMER ON GRADE MEANINGS:
Grade A prospects are the elite. They have a good chance of becoming stars or superstars. Almost all Grade A prospects develop into major league regulars, if injuries or other problems don't intervene. Note that is a major "if" in some cases.
Grade B prospects have a good chance to enjoy successful careers. Some will develop into stars, some will not. Most end up spending several years in the majors, at the very least in a marginal role.
Grade C prospects are the most common type. These are guys who have something positive going for them, but who may have a question mark or three, or who are just too far away from the majors to get an accurate feel for. A few Grade C guys, especially at the lower levels, do develop into stars. Many end up as role players or bench guys. Some don't make it at all.
A major point to remember is that grades for pitchers do NOT correspond directly to grades for hitters. Many Grade A pitching prospects fail to develop, often due to injuries. Some Grade C pitching prospects turn out much better than expected.
Also note that there is diversity within each category. I'm a tough grader; Grade C+ is actually good praise coming from me, and some C+ prospects turn out very well indeed.
Finally, keep in mind that all grades are shorthand. You have to read the full comment for my full opinion about a player, the letter grade only tells you so much. A Grade C prospect in rookie ball could end up being very impressive, while a Grade C prospect in Triple-A is likely just a future role player.
St. Louis Cardinals Top 20 for 2011
1) Shelby Miller, RHP, Grade A-: Grade may seem a notch aggressive, but I totally buy into him as a future ace, with the standard injury caveats of course.
2) Tyrell Jenkins, RHP, Grade B: This grade seems even more aggressive, but I'm playing instinct here as much as projectability. I might revise it but we'll see.
3) Zack Cox, 3B, Grade B-: It may seem weird to rank college hitter Cox behind high school arm Jenkins, but I guess I'm in a weird mood today. Plus, there is something about Cox that makes me think he might not quite live up to expectations.
4) Carlos Martinez (Matias), RHP, Grade B-: What? Sickels ranking a DSL guy this high? Yep. Maybe I'm just in a good mood today. This might look stupid in a year, or inspired. I feel like gambling.
5) Seth Blair, RHP, Grade B-: Future number three starter.
6) Matt Carpenter, 3B, Grade B-: Scouts seem to have mixed feelings about him, but the performance is hard to knock.
7) Eduardo Sanchez, RHP, Grade B-: I think he's the best of the large group of future bullpen arms.
8) Oscar Taveras, OF, Grade B-: Good Appy League numbers, some concern about low walk rate.
9) Deryk Hooker, RHP, Grade B-: Another grade that may seem aggressive but I love the guy, big sleeper for 2011.
10) Allen Craig, OF, Grade C+: Under the at-bat limit so I'll still rank him. Hit very well in the second half for the Cardinals, albeit in limited action. He can help if they let him.
11) Lance Lynn, RHP, Grade C+: Inning-eating fourth starter type.
12) Joe Kelly, RHP, Grade C+: Love the sinker, but needs to show better results.
13) Jordan Swagerty, RHP, Grade C+: Another future middle reliever with some closer potential.
14) Adam Reifer, RHP, Grade C+: Another bullpen part to watch.
15) Cody Stanley, C, Grade C+: Can he avoid Robert Stockitis and bring his Appy League success forward to the Midwest League? I think so.
16) John Gast, LHP, Grade C+: Looked much better against pro hitters than college ones.
17) Tommy Pham, OF, Grade C+: Always had the tools, and skills are starting to develop.
18) Trevor Rosenthal, RHP, Grade C+: Who? Low-level sleeper with breakthrough potential.
19) Nick Longmire, OF, Grade C+: University of the Pacific product with solid tools.
20) Blake King, RHP, Grade C: Check out the K/IP and H/IP numbers. If he can sharpen his command. . .
OTHERS: Matthew Adams, 1B; Bryan Anderson, C; Adron Chambers, OF; Tony Cruz, C; Daniel Descalso, 2B; Anthony Garcia, C-OF; Steven Hill, C; Daryl Jones, OF; David Kopp, RHP; Pete Kozma, SS; Aaron Luna, OF; Casey Mulligan, RHP; Audry Perez, C; Zach Russell, RHP; Francisco Samuel, RHP; Robert Stock, C; Niko Vasquez, 3B.
You have Miller at the top, then a whole bunch of question-marks.
I must be in a strange mood today because normally I wouldn't be so aggressive with guys like Jenkins and Martinez (Matias), but sometimes I don't play it safe. There is something about Cox that I just don't like intuitively, but I can't explain it. I like Blair and Carpenter. After that you have a lot of guys who can be useful reserves or relievers, with a smattering of players with better potential (Hooker, Stanley, and Gast in particular).
All in all, if Cox, Jenkins, and Martinez can pan out, the system will have a more balanced mixture of upside and depth at this time next year.
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i don't really think the Miller grade is aggressive at all
his stats and reports are both very impressive.
R.I.P. cwhitman412, Frederick0220, & Mets2k9
http://twitter.com/doublestix
He's still a teenage pitcher just out of single A ball.
For me, at least, that makes it pretty aggressive. Such a high attrition rate on pitchers.
http://www.crawfishboxes.com
Matt Carpenter
I would call a real stretch as a B-. Not only was he 24 this year in AA, but he took advantage of a well known homer-friendly park in a known hitters league. His road stats, while still solid, are not at the level of his home stats. His D is sketchy as well.
I don't think home runs are really what Matt Carpenter is selling
if you like him (and I do) you are buying into the plate patience. It’s also hard to fault him too much for being old for his level, it’s not as if he’s been stuck. He was drafted as a senior in college and, to watch him at the plate, he looks like a pro already.
Fire John Mozeliak
He's a very good player
And he’s old school. He never gets credit for that. Plus he’ll play in StL where the ball flies in the summer. So HRs aren’t an issue.
Descalso
I think I’d take him over a couple of the non-closer relief arms. Potential every day 2B with a doubles bat.
This is the only thing on the list
that I really disagree with. Descalso has the ability to be a soli utlity infielder at minimum and potentially an decent (1+ win type player) as an everyday second baseman. He should be up there with Lynn and Craig.
There's a surprising amount of B level talent here
I was honestly not expecting that. Nice to see that other people like Hooker as much as I do (I have him 7th)
Fire John Mozeliak
Yeah, as a Cardinals fan I'm excited about this list.
I kept waiting for the B’s to end and the C’s to begin. It took longer than I expected.
Albert Pujols does not have "down" years. He has "~6 WAR" years.
Love Love Jenkins
Possibly my favorite draftee from last year.
Long time lurker, new time poster.
Thought V. Sanchez might be worth an HM...
but I won’t be surprised to see him in the top-20 next year.
like the top 3
but 5-9 all seem like relatively interchangeable C+-ish guys to me. B- is pretty generous for guys like Sanchez and Carpenter, a middle reliever-type and a middling bat 3B with ARL working against him…
E. Sanchez might be the closer in 2012...
depending on Motte’s performance in 2011 – perhaps that speculation is taken into consideration.
not sure if that counts in prospect rating
outside of fantasy. I actually like him decently, good ground ball guy, but I didn’t think his secondary stuff had progressed very far (nice heavy fastball, but nothing plus to go with it) to make him a late innings type guy.
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 13, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions
nice heavy fastball, but nothing plus to go with it
Are you talking about Sanchez? The improvement in his slider was the story of his year, and it’s now a well above average ptich. It’s got great break and he spots it well. He’s not a big guy, but he’s one of those pitchers who looks like he’s playing catch as he fires in mid-90s FBs, and he’s got good movement on both pitches. Of the relief prospects in the high minors this year (e.g. Kohn, H. Rodriguez, Braddock, Walden, Mathieson) Sanchez looked like one of the more promising ones.
by blackoutyears on Dec 17, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
Carpenter is not a middling bat
His plate discipline numbers are off the charts.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 13, 2010 7:32 PM EST up reply actions
true
but middling power at the hot corner, and he was 24 in A+/AA. And as John pointed out, I think there’s not much excitement over his raw tools. Again, not saying he’s a bad prospect, just B- is a bit strong.
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 13, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
John has said in the past he values K:BB rates particularly highly
I tend to agree with him as those are the stats that translate best from the minors to the majors.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 13, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
fair enough
I just don’t think Carpenter is on the same level as Borchering or Vitters (other 3b prospects who have gotten B-‘s) or guys like D’arnaud, Gose, or Engel Beltre. I could see him being a solid backup and sometime reg, but there’s not much upside there.
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 13, 2010 9:38 PM EST up reply actions
though I should of course acknowledge
there’s no doubt a range w/in a grade level
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 13, 2010 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
I like Borchering a little better than Carpenter, but Vitters? I think B- is pretty generous for that guy.
Fire John Mozeliak
you'll have to explain that one
Vitters and Carpenter were both in A+/AA last year. Vitters did better in A+, both got promoted, Carpenter did (much) better in AA. However..Josh Vitters was 20 yrs old. Carpenter was 24.
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 14, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Vitters needs to hit some before I buy into him
Fire John Mozeliak
by purple_haze on Dec 14, 2010 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
I'd say
275/317/435 across all levels (160 ISO), mixing the great half seasons with the bad half seasons when he’s often been one of the youngest guys at every level, plus 33 HRs/67 2bs in 1100 ABs, is hitting some, at least..
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 14, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
not mindblowing by any stretch
don’t get me wrong. but not nothing, either, IMHO
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 14, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Those are pretty terrible numbers
That translates to like a .500 MLE ops.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 14, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions
and Carpenter's was like a ~650
except again he’s 24. (I’m not a huge MLE guy)
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 14, 2010 7:39 PM EST up reply actions
There's a reason MLEs are not generally used to evaluate prospects
as prospects need to make adjustments at every level in order to succeed. If a prospect’s MLEs are good enough to play in the majors, then they should probably be there already.
Fire John Mozeliak
They can be used, however, as a rough barometer of what stats mean
If a player is hitting for a .750 OPS in the minors, he’s not hitting very well period.
Skip Schumaker is a scapegoat
by vivaelpujols on Dec 14, 2010 10:56 PM EST up reply actions
well, yeah
but Mike Trout is the world’s number #1 prospect and his MLEs are like in the 600 OPS range.
Fire John Mozeliak
by purple_haze on Dec 14, 2010 11:42 PM EST up reply actions
not really
if evaluation was like that, then someone like Jurickson Profar would be a horrible prospect…except there are things like tools and ARL.
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 15, 2010 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
that .317 OBP jumps right out, not in a good way.
"We were men - flesh and blood - and we played baseball in the sunshine. We hit doubles off the wall, slid hard into second base. We had fights, and we made love. We sang songs and prayed on Sundays. . . . We felt pain. And we felt joy. There was a lot wrong with the world. But we weren't sad, man. We had the times of our lives." Buck O'Neil, from "The Soul of Baseball: A Road Trip Through Buck O'Neil's America."
Rosenthal scouting report
For those who don’t know about this kid, I dug up some info from the BA chat on the Appy League. I won’t copy-and-paste, but the scouting report from that chat says he has tons of arm strength, fastball sits 92-94 mph with life, and he controls fastball well. Solid-average slider.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/rankings/league-top-20-prospects/2010/2610715.html
Shawn Kerrick, writer for the Johnson City paper, reported on his twitter account during the season that Rosenthal hit 98 on the stadium gun.
Interesting late-round find from 2009.
Just wondering
How can you go from not even having Martinez on the preliminary list to having a “aggressive ranking” on him in less than 24 hrs?
that fastball can do magical things
Stand inside an empty tuxedo with grapes in my mouth, waiting for Ada
twatter
Not based on prospect status
From all I’ve read from other sources, Martinez is a heck of a prospect. My question is on John comes up with these lists. I realize they’re “preliminary” but they feel hastily put together.
lists
I do the lists as i write the book. Enormous amount of research and writing goes into this. Martinez wasn’t listed initially because he was a DSL guy and I usually ignor e them, but his bonus and scouting reports overrode that policy.
by John Sickels on Dec 13, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
I was lucky
to visit the Yankees camp in the Domican this summer and Matais/Martinez was the talk of that facility. He was considered the best arm in the DSL by almost everyone.
HMMM
The Top 4 are the same players I have in the Top 4 but in a different order…so you can argue who deserves to be where but they are close outside of Miller. What I am baffled by is Blair being so high. Blair shouldn’t even be in the Top 10. I like Longmire and Reifer more than you and I surely like Audry Perez and Chambers much more than you as both are in the Top 15 without question IMO. I will say I like the aggressive take on Hooker as I am high on him as well. Overlooked by many but will shine again in 2011. Being a Cards fan I try not to be biased toward the system. But the one exciting thing for me is much more depth than in recent times and plenty of upside type players that could breakout instead of the typical BLAH players. Heading in the right direction IMO. Now need more star power to add to the depth and maybe some legit MI prospects.
This is a bold list
Not hating, but with picks like Blair in the top 5 and Lynn out of the top 10, I must say that this list seems strikes me as a bit unexpected.
I definitely disagree with Chambers being out of the top 20, especially with the way he manhandled the AFL. He’s hit at every level, he’s a great athlete, and I think he’s gonna be a really good MLB player very soon. I’m also way higher on Tony Cruz.
"The Mollusk" makes me want to rail LSD crystals off my friends' sternum. Rage."
by ICEYhawtSTUNNAZ on Dec 13, 2010 9:46 PM EST reply actions
Chambers, etc.
Outfielder Chambers has career line of .271/.359/.382.
He’s never had, across 5 levels, an OPS of .800.
I’d say he’s never hit, really. Not for an outfielder old for his leagues at every step. Poor percentage basestealer, too. And mediocre plate discipline. Ick.
The guy who some sneer at, Matt Carpenter, looks an awful lot like Jeff Cirillo to me. (Cirillo averaged nearly 5 WAR over his first 6 MLB seasons.) Carpenter posted a .900 OPS in AA during his first full pro season. That’s awfully solid—especially with his strikezone control.
Defense? In 2009, Matt C. had a Total Zone of +16. In just 67 games. That’s un-freakin’-believable. His DP’s-to-error ratio is terrific, and he makes a TON of plays at the hot corner. Scouts can complain all they want about his “scooping” the ball at 3rd…but what does it matter if he makes the plays? Artistic, no. Effective, heck yes. I see a plus defender who’s gonna bat around .300/.380/.440 in his prime years. That’s a B- prospect at the very least. (I’d probably go with a straight B.) Oh, and he steals a few bases. And he never gets hurt—not over the last three seasons.
Anyway, thanks for the good work, John!
Chambers
The thing your missing is Chambers was always a toolsy OF that was raw. So what he did in 2010 was not extremely impressive from a stats point of view but he is making great strides in his game and don’t overlook his D. Very good arm and speed in the OF.
you do realize
those defensive stats are averages based on a small sample size, right? (i.e. 67 games is not a good thing in this regard.) If we believed those stats based on those sample sizes, Carpenter would be twice the defender Matt Dominguez is…somehow I don’t think so
by PrincetonCubs on Dec 14, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
"gonna bat around .300/.380/.440 in his prime years"
Well, since he’s just about to enter his prime years and hasn’t advanced past Double-A yet I’d be wary of projecting him to do that in the majors.
by blackoutyears on Dec 17, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Daryl Jones
Is he no longer a prospect in your eyes? Do you think he still could become a table-setting OF?
I didn't know that Kenny Powers dad
was the #7 prospect for the Cards, seemed to be too old, age relative to league and all….
by THESWAMI6 on Dec 14, 2010 10:00 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I like it
Probably the thing that bothers you about Zach Cox is the same thing I don’t like: his immense ego and greedy nature. Anyway, I like that you have Hooker ranked even higher then I do. Joe Kelly hasn’t impressed me in the slightest, but I guess he needs more time to put it together. I’d like to ask 2 questions if I may. 1. What do you think of young infielders Ryan Jackson, Luis Mateo and Donovan Solano? 2. Are young latin hurlers Bryan Martinez, Javier Avendano and Diemer Bier even on your radar?
uh
I dunno about ego/greedy nature or what led you to come to that conclusion. Did he say something mean to you?
And I hear a lot of people who aren’t high on Zach Cox because he’s not exactly the type of prospect people get excited about. He’s likely to have batting average driven OBP, he has more gap type power than home run type power and he doesn’t have the frame of a super-slugger. But this is not Brett Wallace 2.0. I think Cox has a better swing and 1B isn’t even in the picture right now, the way it was when Wallace was drafted.
Fire John Mozeliak
purple_haze
Anyone who demands a spot on the 40 roster before having earned or become eligible for it is nothing short of egotistical and greedy. He’s telling all the other minor leaguers that he’s better then them and should be treated special. There is 0 reason for him to be protected other then pure unadulterated narcisism.
by the way
I’m with you on the fire John Mozeliak. I saw another poster refer to him as “Mozo the Clown” and thought it quite funny, albeit pretty insulting.
all players who demand mlb contracts are now greedy?
how about being smart about their career and their earnings?
Fire Everyone
by billybeingbilly on Dec 15, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
Matthew Adams
Only an Honorable Mention? Really??
Cody Stanley
Like the mention of Stanley. I think he has a good chance to be a better hitter than Cox.
Bryan martinez
What’s the scouting report on this 19-yr-old who just turned in a nice little season split between the DSL and GCL? Even if you discount the DSL numbers, the GCL line was strong in K, H, and GB rates.

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