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Breakout Potential and Exceeding Expectations

I just read an interesting article on FanGraphs by one of my favorite baseball writers: Dave Cameron.

It leads me to wondering who the next Joey Votto is (i.e. a guy who will exceed expectations). Cameron discusses these type of players to be ones with good plate discipline / pitch recognition and who consistently hit with power to the opposite field.

The article makes me wonder what minor leaguers / young players have this kind of breakout potential. The initial guy who comes to mind for me is Logan Morrison, who has all of the attributes listed.

What do you guys think?

Star-divide

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/was-joey-vottos-breakout-predictable/

"This afternoon, Joey Votto is almost certainly going to be awarded the National League MVP for 2010. You can make a case for some other guys who also had great years, but Votto is certainly a deserving recipient. What is interesting to me is how quickly Votto has blown past the ceiling that was put on him as a prospect.

Votto is one of those guys who was always seen as a big league player, but never a premium guy. He was a second round pick in 2002, taken with the 44th overall selection in the draft. He moved one level at a time through the minors, never really dominating at any stop. He struggled severely in the Florida State League at age 21, hitting just .256/.330/.425 in a full season of A-ball.

He put himself on the map with strong performances in Double-A and Triple-A, but he still appeared destined to be a nice player with limited star potential. Twenty-three-year-old first baseman who have just 45 extra base hits and 110 strikeouts in their last stop in the minors generally aren’t perceived as future superstars. That was true of Votto as well, who ranked 43rd in Baseball America’s 2007 Top 100 and 44th in 2008. While his patience and opposite field power looked likely to allow him to hold down a job, there were no obvious signs that he would ever do anything like what he did this year. But after just this third full year in the big leagues, Votto is now one of the best hitters in the game.

He has shown significantly more power in the big leagues than he ever did as a prospect, and has managed to gain that added power without hurting his contact rates. How did he outperform his expectations so quickly?

I have a theory – and that’s really all it is at this point, as we don’t yet have good enough data to draw firm conclusions – that players whose power is primarily to the opposite field develop differently, and are viewed less favorably early in their careers, than players with obvious pull power.

Votto’s power is primarily to left field, where his career ISO is .382, is significantly higher than his ISO to either CF (.261) or RF (.294). His career wOBA on balls to the opposite field is a staggering .508. In that way, he’s comparable to Adrian GonzalezJoe Mauer, andRyan Howard, all of whom drive balls out the opposite way with regularity.

Gonzalez took three organizations to develop, and like Votto, had some real struggles in the minors. Howard didn’t become a regular in the big leagues until age 25. Mauer didn’t see his power really come to fruition until age 26, even though the rest of his game was already mature. Looking back at the list of historical opposite field home run hittersfrom Jeremy Greenhouse, we find more late bloomers like Roberto ClementeJulio Franco, and Jim Edmonds, among others.

With a guy like Adam Dunn, who has been showing off his prodigious power with moonshots to right field from his professional debut, there was never a question as to how well the power would translate in the big leagues. Dunn’s pull power was a developed skill from an early age that required no real scouting acumen to spot. Guys who hit a lot of opposite field home runs, however, don’t provide the same kind of eye-popping displays that draw attention.

If Votto was a dead pull hitter, his development path would be pretty odd. But there have been enough of these late-blooming opposite field mashers to come up through the years that we have to begin to question whether we’re giving it the proper amount of recognition as a predictive skill for future power development. Perhaps we should have been able to overlook Votto’s somewhat pedestrian minor league career (relative to other top shelf prospects, at least) and expect that he would become more than he was at the time. Guys with his skillset seem to continually outperform expectations, and so maybe it is time that we make an adjustment."

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He's another one that popped into my head instantly.

But can you elaborate? I intended for this to be more of a conversation starter than just people rifling off names.

by smk1363 on Nov 22, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Toe Nash

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Nov 22, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's Posey's HR chart from 2010

There’s obviously some serious opposite-field power going on.

by PissedMick on Nov 22, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Mmmm...

I wouldn’t necessarily say “serious opposite field power”. Looks like two just tucked inside the pole, about 340 feet away, and three more between 360 to 380, and if those are just a shade more to center, they aren’t going out either. I would consider 75 degrees to 105 degrees CF. Just right of CF is pretty impressive, but i’d consider that more CF power. But you can feel free to disagree!

by drwmsu1 on Nov 23, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Part of it is home park, its tough to hit anything out in right center there

But at the same time, Posey’s power is quite different from Votto’s. Here’s the chart for comparison purposes:

by nixa37 on Nov 23, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

That would give Votto 16-17 HR at 105 degrees or greater

So that’s almost 1/2 of his 37. Last year was even more pronounced, with 12-13 of 24 total left of 105.

by nixa37 on Nov 23, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

I should have qualified...

to me Posey’s spray chart is exciting because he was 23 last season. For a guy to hit a majority of his HRs to center or oppo is pretty notable at a time when you’re just hoping for some pull power from a young hitter. I’m not sure what Votto’s chart would have looked like four years ago, but I’d guess he’s developed most of his dead-left-field power since then.

by PissedMick on Nov 23, 2010 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure

Everything going back to 2007 shows him being a big time opposite field power hitter. He only hit 4 HR that year, but 2 were 400+ foot opposite field shots. Next 2 years he was 29 of 43 to center or left center (mostly left center).

Not to say Posey’s spray chart isn’t great…the fact that he’s at all similar to Votto is very promising.

by nixa37 on Nov 23, 2010 8:58 PM EST up reply actions  

for some analysis...

since I didn’t see your reply to the Posey listing above, I actually think Belt has a fair amount in common with Votto from a scouting perspective. He has good but not elite power, but he hits it out to all fields and doesn’t significantly adjust his stroke to sell out for power. He just has a very good approach at the plate and adjusts to pitches to drive them however he can. Belt is no stranger to turning on balls, but he can handle pitches on the outside and drive them over the opposite field wall, too.

So yeah, Belt doesn’t have elite raw power, but he has very good “line to line” power.

I downgrade 1B prospects as much as anyone around here, but Belt’s made me a bit of a believer this year. I don’t expect him to go toe to toe with Pujols and Votto for the title of NL’s best hitter anytime soon (or at all), but I think he could surprise some people by being pretty awesome once he gets to MLB (rather than the “pretty good” he’s currently projected for).

by slamcactus on Nov 22, 2010 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Something to consider...

is that Votto was drafted as catcher in the 2nd RD and then moved to 1B. This might have eased the stress on his body some. Not a huge deal but a part of Votto’s formula.

by Havok1517 on Nov 22, 2010 4:50 PM EST reply actions  

How would catching for 4 years in HS...

ease the stress on your body compared to playing 1B? 1B is the least physically demanding position on the field, and catching is the most demanding.

by slamcactus on Nov 22, 2010 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

i think he means

moving from C to 1B helped Votto.

by BurgherKing on Nov 22, 2010 5:12 PM EST up reply actions  

In that case...

he moved off C at the age of 18. His “breakout,” as it were, happened 6 years later (or 8 years later, if you consider 2010 his “breakout”). In other words, I think it’s a stretch.

by slamcactus on Nov 22, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not at all...

saying it is the reason but it is something to factor in when talking about when he was drafted.

by Havok1517 on Nov 23, 2010 1:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Hmmm

Could it be though that this is part of the reason why it took 6 years? Position changes affect players differently, even when the new position is “less demanding.”

by guru4u on Nov 23, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Derek Holland

showed good stuff during the playoffs, I think he’s ready to succeed!!

by srbaseball2003 on Nov 22, 2010 5:36 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah,

this is about the exact opposite of my intentions with this fanpost.

by smk1363 on Nov 22, 2010 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

wow

ya, your right. I’m busted. I definately didn’t read past the headline :)

With that being said I say Logan Morrison or Brandon Belt. Both have great plate disc. and hit for a high average, if the power translates to homers they both could be break out guys.

by srbaseball2003 on Nov 23, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Lars Anderson

Was actually the first guy that jumped into my mind. His power has been oppo field and he’s also a good plate discipline guy. Don’t know if that means anything, but it’s sort of interesting.

by FI2 on Nov 22, 2010 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

Ding, ding, ding!

Exactly the first player that crossed my mind. Opposite field power and excellent approach, only the contact rates are somewhat lacking. I’m hoping for an extended stay at the MLB level to see if it all translates well.

by nheck on Nov 23, 2010 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

i remember the criticism of Dusty Baker

when Votto was taking pitches for the sake of taking them. He wanted Votto to be more agressive in hitters counts. He has made huge strides since then. Mauer is very similar in this regard.

by pedrophile on Nov 22, 2010 6:59 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed,

which is why I could see a guy like Logan Morrison taking the next step 2 or 3 years from now. He’s got great plate discipline and pitch recognition, contact ability, and he can hit it from foul pole to foul pole.

by smk1363 on Nov 22, 2010 7:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/2/26/02452/3182#2462063

The other part of this is remember when Votto was forced to take EVERY first pitch in 2005? Looks as if he found a happy medium.

by slurve on Nov 23, 2010 8:51 AM EST up reply actions  

how could we forget

dougdirt was all over this.

Of course, Doug also kept putting Homer Bailey among the top pitching prospects in baseball long past the sell-by date and kept taking offense to anybody who suggested that Jay Bruce wasn’t going to play CF in the majors, so I’m glad he got one.

by mrkupe on Nov 23, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions  

I can really only comment on my own team,

But I think Chris Carter has very good opposite-field power. People seem to see him as Wily Mo Peña at this point, but I could see him being a lot better than people think if he figures a couple things out.

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by CaliforniaJag on Nov 22, 2010 7:06 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

At first glance, I disagreed...

But after looking at some minor league stats of both Carter and Votto, their first full AA seasons are very similar. Although I don’t think they’re similar hitters, the #’s are similar:

Votto (age 22 in AA) – 136 games, 22 HR, 78 BB, 109 K’s, .956 OPS
Carter (age 22 in AA) – 125 games, 24 HR, 82 BB, 119 K’s, 1.011 OPS

Of course this isn’t saying Carter will cut his K #‘s significant enough to become an elite contact + power bat like Votto, but I don’t mind the comparison.

by smk1363 on Nov 22, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Vitters

provided he can keep his wrists healthy, his power is going to surprise a lot of folks, I think.

by PrincetonCubs on Nov 22, 2010 7:54 PM EST reply actions  

Nobody doubts the power...

it’s developing an approach good enough to use it that’s Vitters’ problem.

by slamcactus on Nov 22, 2010 9:09 PM EST up reply actions  

fair

I think there are some doubters of his power overall, but I agree with you, with the caveat that he has had wrist/hand injuries in the past which sapped his power for periods. His approach is coming along (and when your approach is somewhat hampered by the fact that your contact tool is phenomenal, it’s not the worst problem in the world)

by PrincetonCubs on Nov 23, 2010 9:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Another guy who might surprise:

Danny Espinosa.

3 of his 6 MLB HR’s went opposite field. This kid has outstanding pop for a middle infielder.
Such an exciting guy to watch play the game. He plays his heart out.

He will hit 20 HR in 2011. Count on it.

by smk1363 on Nov 22, 2010 8:21 PM EST reply actions  

Votto

is one of the 3-4 players (EJax/Porcello) I’ve really stuck my neck out for the last few years on this site. I thought I had said something on here about being an MVP candidate a few times over his career but couldn’t find it – maybe on another site… At any rate, great idea for a fanpost smk.

The Posey graph is particularly interesting to me. I also think Belt is a guy that is for real. The re-worked swing looks like it has really done wonders for him – too bad Luis Gonzalez wasn’t able to make his adjustment earlier in his career.

by slurve on Nov 23, 2010 8:45 AM EST reply actions  

Yeah...

I remember me hashing it it out with Blues about who was the better prospect and the future pro, Votto or Loney. Well, that has been answered.

by Havok1517 on Nov 23, 2010 11:17 AM EST up reply actions  

DrB and I had

Nate Schierholtz v. Votto. Yikes. No wonder we don’t see him here anymore…

by slurve on Nov 23, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

DrB

Forgot about him. He was a bigtime Giants fan though, right?

by drwmsu1 on Nov 23, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

Had a bad case of homer too. Decent guy though.

by slurve on Nov 23, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions  

I never thought he was that bad

Obviously we knew who his favorite team was, but I generally found him to be pretty insightful and relatively objective. It was only in the time just before he left that he really seemed to develop a more overt bias IMO, to the point where he seemed to think that the rest of the community was generally anti-Giants. I remember him freaking out a couple of times over some innocent stuff. But I guess if he felt that if he couldn’t offer a fair opinion (or couldn’t find one to his own estimation), he would rather just not participate, which is a perspective that I respect. Miss the guy, he was one of the good ones.

by mrkupe on Nov 24, 2010 6:57 AM EST up reply actions  

What about Uggla?

Does the opposite-field power thing apply to Dan Uggla, maybe the most overachieving power hitter of the past decade?

sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew

by alexwithclass on Nov 23, 2010 1:32 PM EST reply actions  

He's a pure pull power guy

Almost every single HR he hits is to LF or left center

by nixa37 on Nov 23, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Guys to think about in line with that profile

James Darnell
Joe Benson (who I’ve been consistently low on, but might rethink based on this)
Nick Weglarz

See if I can remember to keep track of those guys related to this topic going forward…

One piece that I notice about the guys in the OP, while there were questions about their overall ceilings, their combination of skills gave them pretty high floors, meaning that clubs would keep giving them promotions and playing time. Sometimes low floor guys lose playing time pretty quickly after their first struggles and don’t ever get a full chance to try to regroup.

by realitypolice on Nov 23, 2010 1:40 PM EST reply actions  

sometimes . . .

I think we might misjudge the skillset that makes a prospect perceived to be “high floor, low ceiling”. There’s the obvious reason, of course – a high floor player is going to get more chances at the highest level over a greater number of years, and more frequent playing time means more chances to adapt and to improve. But there’s also a less obvious reason in that a balanced hitting approach seems to lend itself to later manifestations of power numbers, and power tends to be a separator between low ceilings and high ceilings. Some players never quite develop that power (Casey Kotchman jumps to mind), but the ones who don’t often fail to do so for reasons other than a lack of physical strength.

Out of the guys you listed, we have three interesting and unique cases. Weglarz strikes me as perhaps having a bit of Kotchman in him, and in any case his lack of defensive value makes it more of a necessity for him to develop that power to profile as any kind of a regular. Benson is a guy who I thought would have playable power regardless, so the hope that he might improve upon that a bit more is encouraging. Of course, his problem is whether or not he’ll make enough contact, but perhaps the uptick in power will mean more quality contact and a high enough BABIP to support a relatively low average. Darnell would be the guy to really watch here, as he fits that “high floor low ceiling” perception better than the other two, and there are numerous reasons to think that he could bump his power numbers substantially.

by mrkupe on Nov 24, 2010 7:10 AM EST up reply actions  

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